How are you feeling now that season 2 is over? Still positive?
I stopped feeling positive around episode 4. I'm watching the season finale tonight (didn't have enough time to watch them all while I still had the screeners) and am planning a full season article for next week, though.
That said, Ep 7 was decent. Other than that one moment.
How are you feeling now that season 2 is over? Still positive?
I stopped feeling positive around episode 4. I'm watching the season finale tonight (didn't have enough time to watch them all while I still had the screeners) and am planning a full season article for next week, though.
That said, Ep 7 was decent. Other than that one moment.
OK. Looking forward to the article. I've been waiting to try it again until the season ended to make sure it was a legit change in tone and not just a tease.
I see stuff on Twitter occasionally but you never know what's legit and whats the taken out of context and blown up. (Though a Twitter post was the reason behind my post since someone posted a crying/misunderstood Sauron.)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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I haven't clicked the link, but I'm going to assume it's quoting Dr Corey Olsen, AKA the Tolkien Professor, and I don't technically disagree with his sentiment that "canon" doesn't exactly exist with LotR, but I also do think that there are some things that just *are* canon, and the readership can sort of determine where that line is.
For example, do we considering just the books that were published in Tolkien's lifetime to be the only ones that are canon? That would mean the Silmarillion isn't. Or do we consider that as well since it's a curation of Tolkien's work? Because so much of his work has been published posthumously by his son, a ton of people consider them separate.
I am not one of them: the Silmarillion is just as "canon" as The Hobbit and the Trilogy. Will definitely have to read this AFTER I watch ROP tonight.
I haven't clicked the link, but I'm going to assume it's quoting Dr Corey Olsen, AKA the Tolkien Professor, and I don't technically disagree with his sentiment that "canon" doesn't exactly exist with LotR, but I also do think that there are some things that just *are* canon, and the readership can sort of determine where that line is.
For example, do we considering just the books that were published in Tolkien's lifetime to be the only ones that are canon? That would mean the Silmarillion isn't. Or do we consider that as well since it's a curation of Tolkien's work? Because so much of his work has been published posthumously by his son, a ton of people consider them separate.
I am not one of them: the Silmarillion is just as "canon" as The Hobbit and the Trilogy. Will definitely have to read this AFTER I watch ROP tonight.
Just save yourself trouble and don't support and don't watch that garbage.
Rings of Power is NOT Lord of the Rings in anything except name. They don't understand anything about LoTR.
Educate yourself on Tolkien before you start spreading such nonsense. I assume you know very little about him and about how he viewed his work, and only link an article about a sad individual calling himself "Tolkien Professor", while he - once again - completely butchers what Tolkien wrote. But I suppose that goes well with the whole RoP show and their butchery of Tolkien's work. On a personal note, someone who calls himself 'Tolkien PROFESSOR' is ready for a visit to a mental health professional.
Yes, there is canon in Tolkien's work. Read Tolkien's letters, for example letter 210 of June 1958, which is about 9 pages long and discusses very unambiguously canon in his work.
Tolkien in this letter talks about a Mr Zimmerman's film treatment for the LotR and completely demolishes Zimmerman's work and lack of respect for the canon of Tolkien's work. Compared to what the RoP garbage is doing to Tolkien, Zimmerman's lack of creative rigour and understanding are relatively minor, so we can be pretty certain what JRRT would think of the Amazon's butchery, which goes entire orders of magnitude beyond any previous creative barbarity.
For example:
"But I would ask them (Z and/or others) to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any appreciation of what it is all about...
The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies."
That, once again, is about a film treatment from 1958, which does almost insignificant changes to LotR's presentation compared to the RoP. Tolkien proceeds to reject things like flags at fireworks displays, Z's "tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out", Z's interpretation of names like Radagast, of Tom Bombadil, even of such minor things in the treatment as 'the landlord asking Frodo to register' or Aragorn singing 'the song of Gil-galad' (how about this line of Tolkien's when he presents this point: "Why has my account been entirely rewritten here, with disregard for the rest of the tale?"... It goes on and on almost down to attacking individual lines in the weak film treatment of 1958. No need to go on - read the letter for more info about how Tolkien felt about that minor proposal for LotR adaptation.
To summarise: no, this show has pretty much nothing to do with Tolkien, apart from using his names, locations, etc. RoP is a complete travesty and a deliberate butchery of Tolkien's work. People may enjoy whatever they like, perhaps even RoP - but they should be fully aware that they are enjoying a travesty, instead of pretending it is Tolkien.
People are taking these things too serious. The vast majority of people who watch these shows or have seen movies or even play the games never read the books nor do they ever plan to. Stop taking yourself so seriously and recognize that this made-up world can be more 'made up' and still be a good thing for the brand itself. Comics do this all the time Stop acting like this is a religion.
People are taking these things too serious. The vast majority of people who watch these shows or have seen movies or even play the games never read the books nor do they ever plan to. Stop taking yourself so seriously and recognize that this made-up world can be more 'made up' and still be a good thing for the brand itself. Comics do this all the time Stop acting like this is a religion.
The fact that you present this as "a brand" speaks volumes. But in some ways, such cultural barbarism and ignorance of great art throughout history and its fundamental distinction from mere products or IPs - so typical these days - is not the main issue here, after all.
What definitely is a problem is the reappearance after a few decades of the methods and goals once thought left behind, in the dark decades of the 20th century. The fact that it is happening in such frivolous matters as film or that it concerns works of fiction makes no difference. Deliberate distortion, injection of ideologies, changing the narrative of stories and historical events, twisting tales and interpretations to support specific views, feeding such distortions to the masses - all that has been done before.
Techniques for brainwashing entire populations were perfected especially by the totalitarian regimes in the communist bloc and these latest developments are nothing new. It may be more subtle, on a smaller scale, it may not be as in your face as blaring agitprop vehicles driving across the countryside - but it would be a dangerous mistake to think this is a harmless fun to 'improve a children's book' or some such silly nonsense.
The fact that you and many other people cannot see beyond the surface of this phenomenon is sad, but not surprising - after all, millions of people fell victim to these methods before. I am not going to go further, since this is not a political site - but there are disturbing parallels to what Hollywood (and others) are doing and what we went through 30+ years ago. It would be a mistake to think that the old maxim about being doomed to repeat history only applies to your own history...
It is not a religion, it is literature and as such should be given the respect it deserves. Dr Corey Olsen teaches Tolkien at a online university, the sort of thing anyone could set up. I do not dismiss his work in fact I regard him as an expert but to say there is no such thing as canon because "Tolkien's ideas were ever evolving" is nonsense, you could say that for any author.
For me the line is quite clear in literature the published works and the grey area of everything else. While I myself quote from unpublished works I would never give them the credence of the published works. Authors may say and write all sorts of conjecture but when they have to publish is when ideas get tempered by fire and only what they truly want in the canon goes in. It is very similar to what happens when an artist sells a picture or composition, publishing fires the clay into canon form if you will.
This thread made me look into the series more than I had bothered to and from all accounts has taken terrible liberties with the canon to the point where I am glad I don't have Prime as I avoided getting wound up endlessly by it.
People are taking these things too serious. The vast majority of people who watch these shows or have seen movies or even play the games never read the books nor do they ever plan to. Stop taking yourself so seriously and recognize that this made-up world can be more 'made up' and still be a good thing for the brand itself. Comics do this all the time Stop acting like this is a religion.
How about we show you bloody tourists how a kick to the behind looks like? You come with your Gilga Daddys, Galadriel-Sauron-Elrond triangle(like wtf) and other nonsense without an ounce of respect for the core work and people who enjoy it. EDIT: I want to apologize myself for undue coarseness, but this lack of respect, of ... consuming everything like that(if I might be so vulgar as to suggest that a "condomization" of sorts happened to how people treat things) gets to me. Of course that everyone begins as a newbie and or a tourist, but respect is all I ask for.
"Based upon LoTR or works of JRRT" is all I ask for. And I would be so bold so as to say "we ask for" as well. Decency, respect and acknowledgment of when a fan fiction is a fan fiction.
People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
People are taking these things too serious. The vast majority of people who watch these shows or have seen movies or even play the games never read the books nor do they ever plan to. Stop taking yourself so seriously and recognize that this made-up world can be more 'made up' and still be a good thing for the brand itself. Comics do this all the time Stop acting like this is a religion.
The fact that you present this as "a brand" speaks volumes. But in some ways, such cultural barbarism and ignorance of great art throughout history and its fundamental distinction from mere products or IPs - so typical these days - is not the main issue here, after all.
What definitely is a problem is the reappearance after a few decades of the methods and goals once thought left behind, in the dark decades of the 20th century. The fact that it is happening in such frivolous matters as film or that it concerns works of fiction makes no difference. Deliberate distortion, injection of ideologies, changing the narrative of stories and historical events, twisting tales and interpretations to support specific views, feeding such distortions to the masses - all that has been done before.
Techniques for brainwashing entire populations were perfected especially by the totalitarian regimes in the communist bloc and these latest developments are nothing new. It may be more subtle, on a smaller scale, it may not be as in your face as blaring agitprop vehicles driving across the countryside - but it would be a dangerous mistake to think this is a harmless fun to 'improve a children's book' or some such silly nonsense.
The fact that you and many other people cannot see beyond the surface of this phenomenon is sad, but not surprising - after all, millions of people fell victim to these methods before. I am not going to go further, since this is not a political site - but there are disturbing parallels to what Hollywood (and others) are doing and what we went through 30+ years ago. It would be a mistake to think that the old maxim about being doomed to repeat history only applies to your own history...
Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
This is exactly why Tolkien hated the very concept of fans. He didn't want to grow anything. He even had a ready sequel, but gave up on it because it would have compromised LoTR. He didn't want seanse reading of LoTR while on LSD etc. Or to be associated to such activities.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
This is exactly why Tolkien hated the very concept of fans. He didn't want to grow anything. He even had a ready sequel, but gave up on it because it would have compromised LoTR. He didn't want seanse reading of LoTR while on LSD etc. Or to be associated to such activities.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
Um, art is meant to be a lot of things. And the their is definitely art that’s meant to be interpreted.
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People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
This is exactly why Tolkien hated the very concept of fans. He didn't want to grow anything. He even had a ready sequel, but gave up on it because it would have compromised LoTR. He didn't want seanse reading of LoTR while on LSD etc. Or to be associated to such activities.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
Some people said the same things about the movies that you mentioned. Some people are saying the same thing about this show. You mentioned heresy. Again, that is usually used as a religious word, and this is not a religion. It is a series of books about make believe things in a make believe world. Additionally, art is not supposed to be interpreted? You are not serious about that are you? That is a very controversial stance on art if that is what you really believe. The reality is, no one outside of a small vocal minority really care. You are fighting a battle against an enemy that does not know you exist and the ones who do don't really care. I would suggest just moving on since it does not matter what a few diehard purists think. You are taking these books way too seriously.
People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
This is exactly why Tolkien hated the very concept of fans. He didn't want to grow anything. He even had a ready sequel, but gave up on it because it would have compromised LoTR. He didn't want seanse reading of LoTR while on LSD etc. Or to be associated to such activities.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
Um, art is meant to be a lot of things. And the their is definitely art that’s meant to be interpreted.
Entire fields of art are meant to be interpreted. No artist wants their art to just wither away in some back room, not inspiring anyone or to not be seen, ready, or enjoyed. Interpretation comes from that inspiration.
The LOTR movies, the Hobbit movies, the LOTRO game are all interpretations. And all of those, and with Rings of Power, they had their moments and they had their moments I would like to forget.
But I appreciate art. I appreciate interpretation and I appreciate that we continue to get interpretations of a world I love, a world I studied and lived in for a very extended period of time. I have read Tolkien's source material and his inspiration. Guess what? Its a whole lot of interpretation.
Either we continue to get interpretations or it withers away and dies. The problem is hardcore fans have tunnel vision and when it does not reflect their view, they go on a crusade to ruin it for others because in their minds, if they cannot enjoy it, they will run it for everyone. The same is true for all major IP's right now - Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc... it will happen again when Dune launches and any other major universe (even Fallout earlier this year).
Rings of Power is so much more than a few moments. The cinematography, the design, the music, its incredible. I am not a big fane of some things but its enjoyable and thats all that matters.
Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
Yes, that much has been plain from your very first posts here. You do not understand the author and his work. Which is not such a big deal, to be honest, Tolkien himself described such scenarios even in the LotR's foreword - we don't even need to dive into his background, worldview, etc., which had all had a fundamental role in his works. Pointless platitudes about interpretation of art are just that - pointless platitudes. No real need to explicitly confirm what has been clear even before this post of yours - perhaps apart from the usual despair at the proliferation of philistines applauding grotesque interpretations that use whatever latest medium brings in the most cash and popcorn-munching audience.
Either we continue to get interpretations or it withers away and dies. The problem is hardcore fans have tunnel vision and when it does not reflect their view, they go on a crusade to ruin it for others because in their minds, if they cannot enjoy it, they will run it for everyone. The same is true for all major IP's right now - Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc... it will happen again when Dune launches and any other major universe (even Fallout earlier this year).
Funny that Tolkien's books were doing just fine throughout the decades since LotR's release. Must be some kind of miracle that instead of withering and dying without the "benefit" of the modern cultural barbarians the book became one of the best-selling and most recognised literary works in history, eh?
Unlike RoP and similar barbarity of the current times, the only notable controversy was in the Soviet bloc bemoaning Tolkien's works as glorification of the hobbit kulaks, Gondor bourgeoisie, Elven aristocracy and the lamentable fate of the progressive Mordor, clearly representing the Soviet Union and the plight of the proletariat and its industry against the reactionary forces of the West. And no, I am not kidding or exaggerating, that really was one of the reviews of the LotR in the Eastern bloc.
What you ridicule as "tunnel vision" is actually nothing more than desire to have faithful adaptations of the source material (or failing that, leaving it in peace) - something that was not that uncommon just a couple of decades ago. And importantly, something that the author himself was very keen on, as mentioned above (and in his letters).
Hijacking Tolkien's work for ridiculous fan-fiction and as a vehicle for their own ideologies is definitely beyond anything Tolkien anticipated or would be able to stomach. For Gandalf's grey beard, he even stated he despised Disney (with their asinine interpretation of the Grimms' tales) - what do you think he would say to this RoP travesty?!
Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
Yes, that much has been plain from your very first posts here. You do not understand the author and his work. Which is not such a big deal, to be honest, Tolkien himself described such scenarios even in the LotR's foreword - we don't even need to dive into his background, worldview, etc., which had all had a fundamental role in his works. Pointless platitudes about interpretation of art are just that - pointless platitudes. No real need to explicitly confirm what has been clear even before this post of yours - perhaps apart from the usual despair at the proliferation of philistines applauding grotesque interpretations using whatever latest medium brings in the most cash and popcorn-munching audience.
Because I do not view them as great works of art, I do not understand them? That is a bit childish. The books are not that complicated to understand or follow. Not sure why you feel that if you like something you are considered 'the only ones that get it' That is a juvenile view of personal opinions. I had that coaching moment with my son years ago when he was still a child.
I am not alone in my view point that they are decent works of fiction but are not on the level of others that I consider great. (Writers such as these wrote more compelling works imho -Ishiguro, Rothfuss, Kay, Guin, Yong, Cheng'en) Lord of the Rings had a fair share of criticism on release and continue to throughout the years. I enjoy the world but the characters are just a little 2 dimensional for me. I enjoy them well enough, that is why I like the movies and the show and the Shadow of games. I like the world he created but not the characters as much. The movies and the show made use of the great world building and that is what I want. More stories within that world. Defending something you like is a great use of opinion, insulting others who do not share it is just, well, sad. Art is subjective.
Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
Yes, that much has been plain from your very first posts here. You do not understand the author and his work. Which is not such a big deal, to be honest, Tolkien himself described such scenarios even in the LotR's foreword - we don't even need to dive into his background, worldview, etc., which had all had a fundamental role in his works. Pointless platitudes about interpretation of art are just that - pointless platitudes. No real need to explicitly confirm what has been clear even before this post of yours - perhaps apart from the usual despair at the proliferation of philistines applauding grotesque interpretations using whatever latest medium brings in the most cash and popcorn-munching audience.
Because I do not view them as great works of art, I do not understand them? That is a bit childish. The books are not that complicated to understand or follow. Not sure why you feel that if you like something you are considered 'the only ones that get it' That is a juvenile view of personal opinions. I had that coaching moment with my son years ago when he was still a child.
I am not alone in my view point that they are decent works of fiction but are not on the level of others that I consider great. (Writers such as these wrote more compelling works imho -Ishiguro, Rothfuss, Kay, Guin, Yong, Cheng'en) Lord of the Rings had a fair share of criticism on release and continue to throughout the years. I enjoy the world but the characters are just a little 2 dimensional for me. I enjoy them well enough, that is why I like the movies and the show and the Shadow of games. I like the world he created but not the characters as much. The movies and the show made use of the great world building and that is what I want. More stories within that world. Defending something you like is a great use of opinion, insulting others who do not share it is just, well, sad. Art is subjective.
And once again, you misunderstand what was written - hardly surprising based on what I am reading from you. No, it is not because you don't consider his work to be great art. That is completely personal and nothing to do with what I posted. Throughout your posts you show that you do not understand his work at all - whether it is the incomprehensibly reductionist take of "made up worlds" (which completely misses the whole worldview of Tolkien and the main reason he wrote the books), to the ridiculous presentation of his work as a "brand", to your complete ignorance (whether genuine or deliberate) of the cultural and historical background, to the earlier re-posting of the "Tolkien Professor's" laughable ideas and distortions - and so much more.
With every post you demonstrate beyond any doubt that you do not understand the author and you do not understand his books. The fact that you do not even understand a few simple forum posts and instead try to spin them as "juvenile" views because you fail to see a point is probably the bigger issue here. One, however, that I am not really interested in analysing here with you, to be honest.
Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
Yes, that much has been plain from your very first posts here. You do not understand the author and his work. Which is not such a big deal, to be honest, Tolkien himself described such scenarios even in the LotR's foreword - we don't even need to dive into his background, worldview, etc., which had all had a fundamental role in his works. Pointless platitudes about interpretation of art are just that - pointless platitudes. No real need to explicitly confirm what has been clear even before this post of yours - perhaps apart from the usual despair at the proliferation of philistines applauding grotesque interpretations using whatever latest medium brings in the most cash and popcorn-munching audience.
…Art is subjective.
Every game you ever liked is hot garbage and the world is an uglier place because they exist.
People are being ridiculous. It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago. It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)" Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works? Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting. So what it does not stick to the books? If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works. No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works. Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works. They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works. I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy. Art is not definable. Harsh Reality point: Give up and save your energy. Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks. Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
This is exactly why Tolkien hated the very concept of fans. He didn't want to grow anything. He even had a ready sequel, but gave up on it because it would have compromised LoTR. He didn't want seanse reading of LoTR while on LSD etc. Or to be associated to such activities.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
Um, art is meant to be a lot of things. And the their is definitely art that’s meant to be interpreted.
Entire fields of art are meant to be interpreted. No artist wants their art to just wither away in some back room, not inspiring anyone or to not be seen, ready, or enjoyed. Interpretation comes from that inspiration.
The LOTR movies, the Hobbit movies, the LOTRO game are all interpretations. And all of those, and with Rings of Power, they had their moments and they had their moments I would like to forget.
But I appreciate art. I appreciate interpretation and I appreciate that we continue to get interpretations of a world I love, a world I studied and lived in for a very extended period of time. I have read Tolkien's source material and his inspiration. Guess what? Its a whole lot of interpretation.
Either we continue to get interpretations or it withers away and dies. The problem is hardcore fans have tunnel vision and when it does not reflect their view, they go on a crusade to ruin it for others because in their minds, if they cannot enjoy it, they will run it for everyone. The same is true for all major IP's right now - Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc... it will happen again when Dune launches and any other major universe (even Fallout earlier this year).
Rings of Power is so much more than a few moments. The cinematography, the design, the music, its incredible. I am not a big fane of some things but its enjoyable and thats all that matters.
I think it's great that people enjoy them. I like parts of them. But I don't throw a shoe at the tv if it's on.
I loved the Peter Jackson movies and even loved his hobbit movies though they do have some bits that I don't like. I can say there were some additions that I enjoyed but didn't need to be there.
Having said that, my brother can't stand them. Any of the Jackson "Tolkien" movies. Says they're "video game" movies. Most likely because of the cgi.
There are people who think the books are dreck. And that they are brilliant. I imagine the same goes with the new series. Oh well, the world continues to turn ...
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Great art? You consider these books great art? I guess that is the difference, I do not. I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination. I like the movies, and I like the show. They made boring works more interesting in my opinion. Art is meant to be interpreted.
Yes, that much has been plain from your very first posts here. You do not understand the author and his work. Which is not such a big deal, to be honest, Tolkien himself described such scenarios even in the LotR's foreword - we don't even need to dive into his background, worldview, etc., which had all had a fundamental role in his works. Pointless platitudes about interpretation of art are just that - pointless platitudes. No real need to explicitly confirm what has been clear even before this post of yours - perhaps apart from the usual despair at the proliferation of philistines applauding grotesque interpretations using whatever latest medium brings in the most cash and popcorn-munching audience.
Because I do not view them as great works of art, I do not understand them? That is a bit childish. The books are not that complicated to understand or follow. Not sure why you feel that if you like something you are considered 'the only ones that get it' That is a juvenile view of personal opinions. I had that coaching moment with my son years ago when he was still a child.
I am not alone in my view point that they are decent works of fiction but are not on the level of others that I consider great. (Writers such as these wrote more compelling works imho -Ishiguro, Rothfuss, Kay, Guin, Yong, Cheng'en) Lord of the Rings had a fair share of criticism on release and continue to throughout the years. I enjoy the world but the characters are just a little 2 dimensional for me. I enjoy them well enough, that is why I like the movies and the show and the Shadow of games. I like the world he created but not the characters as much. The movies and the show made use of the great world building and that is what I want. More stories within that world. Defending something you like is a great use of opinion, insulting others who do not share it is just, well, sad. Art is subjective.
Art is subjective, fair enough. But what that refers to is how an art impacts a person. Millions might be moved by a painting, but that don't mean an individual is going to be. Maybe it falls flat.
Regardless, this is not about that. And does not fall under that umbrella. This is about vandalization of art. And proliferation of such anti-art that ... nevermind. When art has rules and continuity, there is no room for interpretation. You adapt your ideas to the framework presented. You do not touch the framework. Take 40k. And the female Space Marines controversy. You can't just whip them up. That is highly disrespectful. If you must, develop it logically. Similar can be said about the appearance of Space Marines. You can't have an Aryan Salamander. Because given genetics, biology, environment etc, Salamanders look like they do. The same applies to LoTR.
Again, all I ask is for RoP(and other such nonsense) to include the "inspired by / based upon" part. Kinda like, idk, Voyager has "based upon Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry". That's all I ask for. And then you can have Sauron shagging Galadriel(super heretical and blasphemous in actuality, but in fan fiction? /shrug), I don't care.
And for decency and less of ego. These people came in without any respect, full of themselves and started mucking about like a band of Savage Uns. That's what they are. Savage Orcs flinging garbage at Dwarfen Statues.
The Moria part was generally good. Celebrimbor part was decent. Numenor part is a stinker. For all the things the show did right with the seventh episode it decided to unleash the absolute worst in the season finale.
At least we got to utter "STOP! He's already dead" which was the only positive moment I could find about the experience of watching the episode.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
The argument has been made that our criticisms are a minority and what we are saying is going no where.
You can of course find rave reviews but there is a reason the MC score is 70 on a site that overscores all the time. While only 37% of viewers who started series one finished it. You can believe this is all about review bombing and I am sure there has been a lot of that, but equally there has been a ton of rave reviews which were quite unfounded.
If you have a taste for fantasy what are you going to watch? I think that accounts for the viewing figures being as high as they are to be honest. It is hardly an over supplied genre.
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That said, Ep 7 was decent. Other than that one moment.
I see stuff on Twitter occasionally but you never know what's legit and whats the taken out of context and blown up. (Though a Twitter post was the reason behind my post since someone posted a crying/misunderstood Sauron.)
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I never would have guessed that the Wheel of Time show would be so much more lore accurate than Rings of Power.
For example, do we considering just the books that were published in Tolkien's lifetime to be the only ones that are canon? That would mean the Silmarillion isn't. Or do we consider that as well since it's a curation of Tolkien's work? Because so much of his work has been published posthumously by his son, a ton of people consider them separate.
I am not one of them: the Silmarillion is just as "canon" as The Hobbit and the Trilogy. Will definitely have to read this AFTER I watch ROP tonight.
Rings of Power is NOT Lord of the Rings in anything except name. They don't understand anything about LoTR.
Yes, there is canon in Tolkien's work. Read Tolkien's letters, for example letter 210 of June 1958, which is about 9 pages long and discusses very unambiguously canon in his work.
Tolkien in this letter talks about a Mr Zimmerman's film treatment for the LotR and completely demolishes Zimmerman's work and lack of respect for the canon of Tolkien's work. Compared to what the RoP garbage is doing to Tolkien, Zimmerman's lack of creative rigour and understanding are relatively minor, so we can be pretty certain what JRRT would think of the Amazon's butchery, which goes entire orders of magnitude beyond any previous creative barbarity.
For example:
"But I would ask them (Z and/or others) to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any appreciation of what it is all about...
The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies."
That, once again, is about a film treatment from 1958, which does almost insignificant changes to LotR's presentation compared to the RoP. Tolkien proceeds to reject things like flags at fireworks displays, Z's "tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out", Z's interpretation of names like Radagast, of Tom Bombadil, even of such minor things in the treatment as 'the landlord asking Frodo to register' or Aragorn singing 'the song of Gil-galad' (how about this line of Tolkien's when he presents this point: "Why has my account been entirely rewritten here, with disregard for the rest of the tale?"... It goes on and on almost down to attacking individual lines in the weak film treatment of 1958. No need to go on - read the letter for more info about how Tolkien felt about that minor proposal for LotR adaptation.
To summarise: no, this show has pretty much nothing to do with Tolkien, apart from using his names, locations, etc. RoP is a complete travesty and a deliberate butchery of Tolkien's work. People may enjoy whatever they like, perhaps even RoP - but they should be fully aware that they are enjoying a travesty, instead of pretending it is Tolkien.
The vast majority of people who watch these shows or have seen movies or even play the games never read the books nor do they ever plan to.
Stop taking yourself so seriously and recognize that this made-up world can be more 'made up' and still be a good thing for the brand itself.
Comics do this all the time
Stop acting like this is a religion.
The fact that you present this as "a brand" speaks volumes. But in some ways, such cultural barbarism and ignorance of great art throughout history and its fundamental distinction from mere products or IPs - so typical these days - is not the main issue here, after all.
What definitely is a problem is the reappearance after a few decades of the methods and goals once thought left behind, in the dark decades of the 20th century. The fact that it is happening in such frivolous matters as film or that it concerns works of fiction makes no difference. Deliberate distortion, injection of ideologies, changing the narrative of stories and historical events, twisting tales and interpretations to support specific views, feeding such distortions to the masses - all that has been done before.
Techniques for brainwashing entire populations were perfected especially by the totalitarian regimes in the communist bloc and these latest developments are nothing new. It may be more subtle, on a smaller scale, it may not be as in your face as blaring agitprop vehicles driving across the countryside - but it would be a dangerous mistake to think this is a harmless fun to 'improve a children's book' or some such silly nonsense.
The fact that you and many other people cannot see beyond the surface of this phenomenon is sad, but not surprising - after all, millions of people fell victim to these methods before. I am not going to go further, since this is not a political site - but there are disturbing parallels to what Hollywood (and others) are doing and what we went through 30+ years ago. It would be a mistake to think that the old maxim about being doomed to repeat history only applies to your own history...
For me the line is quite clear in literature the published works and the grey area of everything else. While I myself quote from unpublished works I would never give them the credence of the published works. Authors may say and write all sorts of conjecture but when they have to publish is when ideas get tempered by fire and only what they truly want in the canon goes in. It is very similar to what happens when an artist sells a picture or composition, publishing fires the clay into canon form if you will.
This thread made me look into the series more than I had bothered to and from all accounts has taken terrible liberties with the canon to the point where I am glad I don't have Prime as I avoided getting wound up endlessly by it.
"Based upon LoTR or works of JRRT" is all I ask for. And I would be so bold so as to say "we ask for" as well. Decency, respect and acknowledgment of when a fan fiction is a fan fiction.
It is a made-up story from a book series written decades ago.
It is not real.
"But it has sold more than any other fantasy series in history (except for Harry Potter)"
Yeah and? The movies didn't help that? The show won't bring new readers to the older works?
Yes, they did and yes it will.
Longevity can often be ensured through reinterpreting.
So what it does not stick to the books?
If people are obsessed with the core works, then read and reread the core works.
No show or movie is taking away from your enjoyment of those works.
Purist fans of art are not bastions of integrity of those works.
They more often than not, try and stand in the way of the growth of that art.
I understand that some people respect core works.
I also respect art being interpreted especially if it expands the core work to allow for a broader audience to absorb and enjoy.
Art is not definable.
Harsh Reality point:
Give up and save your energy.
Your crusade falls on deaf ears and no one honestly cares what the minority thinks.
Which is why shows like this get made and movies that purists do not like gross billions.
I guess that is the difference, I do not.
I have read all of his works; I never understood the fascination.
I like the movies, and I like the show.
They made boring works more interesting in my opinion.
Art is meant to be interpreted.
How is "Gilga Daddy" and other RoP nonsense contributing anything to LoTR? And, imo, we don't people who came to know LoTR through that. There are enough, great if I might add, venues to get into LoTR: books, movies, games(BFME, LoTR:O) ... how is this heresy bringing anything to the table?
Art is meant to be enjoyed and respected, not interpretted. Everyone naturally has its own interpretation and experience of things, but to take a thing, smear it and call it "my own interpretation"? Sorry, no, I am against that.
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Some people are saying the same thing about this show.
You mentioned heresy. Again, that is usually used as a religious word, and this is not a religion.
It is a series of books about make believe things in a make believe world.
Additionally, art is not supposed to be interpreted? You are not serious about that are you? That is a very controversial stance on art if that is what you really believe.
The reality is, no one outside of a small vocal minority really care.
You are fighting a battle against an enemy that does not know you exist and the ones who do don't really care.
I would suggest just moving on since it does not matter what a few diehard purists think.
You are taking these books way too seriously.
The LOTR movies, the Hobbit movies, the LOTRO game are all interpretations. And all of those, and with Rings of Power, they had their moments and they had their moments I would like to forget.
But I appreciate art. I appreciate interpretation and I appreciate that we continue to get interpretations of a world I love, a world I studied and lived in for a very extended period of time. I have read Tolkien's source material and his inspiration. Guess what? Its a whole lot of interpretation.
Either we continue to get interpretations or it withers away and dies. The problem is hardcore fans have tunnel vision and when it does not reflect their view, they go on a crusade to ruin it for others because in their minds, if they cannot enjoy it, they will run it for everyone. The same is true for all major IP's right now - Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc... it will happen again when Dune launches and any other major universe (even Fallout earlier this year).
Rings of Power is so much more than a few moments. The cinematography, the design, the music, its incredible. I am not a big fane of some things but its enjoyable and thats all that matters.
Funny that Tolkien's books were doing just fine throughout the decades since LotR's release. Must be some kind of miracle that instead of withering and dying without the "benefit" of the modern cultural barbarians the book became one of the best-selling and most recognised literary works in history, eh?
Unlike RoP and similar barbarity of the current times, the only notable controversy was in the Soviet bloc bemoaning Tolkien's works as glorification of the hobbit kulaks, Gondor bourgeoisie, Elven aristocracy and the lamentable fate of the progressive Mordor, clearly representing the Soviet Union and the plight of the proletariat and its industry against the reactionary forces of the West. And no, I am not kidding or exaggerating, that really was one of the reviews of the LotR in the Eastern bloc.
What you ridicule as "tunnel vision" is actually nothing more than desire to have faithful adaptations of the source material (or failing that, leaving it in peace) - something that was not that uncommon just a couple of decades ago. And importantly, something that the author himself was very keen on, as mentioned above (and in his letters).
Hijacking Tolkien's work for ridiculous fan-fiction and as a vehicle for their own ideologies is definitely beyond anything Tolkien anticipated or would be able to stomach. For Gandalf's grey beard, he even stated he despised Disney (with their asinine interpretation of the Grimms' tales) - what do you think he would say to this RoP travesty?!
Because I do not view them as great works of art, I do not understand them?
That is a bit childish.
The books are not that complicated to understand or follow.
Not sure why you feel that if you like something you are considered 'the only ones that get it'
That is a juvenile view of personal opinions.
I had that coaching moment with my son years ago when he was still a child.
I am not alone in my view point that they are decent works of fiction but are not on the level of others that I consider great. (Writers such as these wrote more compelling works imho -Ishiguro, Rothfuss, Kay, Guin, Yong, Cheng'en)
Lord of the Rings had a fair share of criticism on release and continue to throughout the years. I enjoy the world but the characters are just a little 2 dimensional for me. I enjoy them well enough, that is why I like the movies and the show and the Shadow of games.
I like the world he created but not the characters as much. The movies and the show made use of the great world building and that is what I want. More stories within that world.
Defending something you like is a great use of opinion, insulting others who do not share it is just, well, sad.
Art is subjective.
And once again, you misunderstand what was written - hardly surprising based on what I am reading from you. No, it is not because you don't consider his work to be great art. That is completely personal and nothing to do with what I posted. Throughout your posts you show that you do not understand his work at all - whether it is the incomprehensibly reductionist take of "made up worlds" (which completely misses the whole worldview of Tolkien and the main reason he wrote the books), to the ridiculous presentation of his work as a "brand", to your complete ignorance (whether genuine or deliberate) of the cultural and historical background, to the earlier re-posting of the "Tolkien Professor's" laughable ideas and distortions - and so much more.
With every post you demonstrate beyond any doubt that you do not understand the author and you do not understand his books. The fact that you do not even understand a few simple forum posts and instead try to spin them as "juvenile" views because you fail to see a point is probably the bigger issue here. One, however, that I am not really interested in analysing here with you, to be honest.
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Regardless, this is not about that. And does not fall under that umbrella. This is about vandalization of art. And proliferation of such anti-art that ... nevermind. When art has rules and continuity, there is no room for interpretation. You adapt your ideas to the framework presented. You do not touch the framework. Take 40k. And the female Space Marines controversy. You can't just whip them up. That is highly disrespectful. If you must, develop it logically. Similar can be said about the appearance of Space Marines. You can't have an Aryan Salamander. Because given genetics, biology, environment etc, Salamanders look like they do. The same applies to LoTR.
Again, all I ask is for RoP(and other such nonsense) to include the "inspired by / based upon" part. Kinda like, idk, Voyager has "based upon Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry". That's all I ask for. And then you can have Sauron shagging Galadriel(super heretical and blasphemous in actuality, but in fan fiction? /shrug), I don't care.
And for decency and less of ego. These people came in without any respect, full of themselves and started mucking about like a band of Savage Uns. That's what they are. Savage Orcs flinging garbage at Dwarfen Statues.
I have said what I wanted to say. Moving on.
At least we got to utter "STOP! He's already dead" which was the only positive moment I could find about the experience of watching the episode.
You can of course find rave reviews but there is a reason the MC score is 70 on a site that overscores all the time. While only 37% of viewers who started series one finished it. You can believe this is all about review bombing and I am sure there has been a lot of that, but equally there has been a ton of rave reviews which were quite unfounded.
If you have a taste for fantasy what are you going to watch? I think that accounts for the viewing figures being as high as they are to be honest. It is hardly an over supplied genre.