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Developer announces a ban for anyone PKing Asmongold

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    Kyleran said:
    Wargfoot said:
    olepi said:
    No, when something is elective that means the player gets to elect, or chose to do it or not. In DAOC the player can chose to PvP or not. They can elect to PvP or not. They can also decide whether they want to craft things or not.

    Non-elective; you will play the game as a male scout armed with a bow and arrow, there is no other choice.

    Elective: you can play as a scout, a warrior, or a mage, and can be male or female, it is up to the player to chose.

    Those two things are not the same.
    If you enter a full loot PvP game you've elected to participate in a full loot PvP world.

    I appreciate that some games allow you to opt in and opt out within the game itself, but some games (as you well know) you opt in by signing-in.

    The claim you're making is like saying that LOTRO forces players into a medieval setting and that setting is non-elective; therefore, Star Wars fans can claim they're being forced into a particular setting against their will; therefore, it is wrong.

    Read the box, opt-in or opt-out at that point.

    So "reading the box" here's what Steam says about Throne and Liberty. (Emphasis mine)

    From the below, could a player believe it was possible to enjoy the game while avoiding PVP?

    Hard to tell yes?  Further reading of the first review reveals maybe yes...with limitations and provisos.

    "Welcome to THRONE AND LIBERTY, a free-to-play MMORPG that takes place in the vast open world of Solisium. You can scale expansive mountain ranges for new vantage points, scan open skies, traverse sprawling plains, explore a land full of depth and opportunity. Adapt your fight to survive and thrive through strategic decisions in PvP, PvE or both as you encounter evolving battlefields impacted by weather, time of day, and other players. There is no single path to victory as you seek to defeat Kazar and claim the throne while keeping rival guilds at bay."

    BTW, LOTRO was a great example of a MMORPG where players can totally avoid PVP at their option and suffer few, if any penalties for doing so.



    Reading that it's very ambiguous. I'm assuming it's a "choose your poison" scenario as I don't believe this is an open ffa pvp.
    Here's one person's thoughts on PVP. You can select to deprive yourself as often is the case in PVP centric games.

    "During the day the peace reigns and the events are safe but once the night comes the PVP starts and for a solo player there is little you can do but watch how the best guilds and groups from the server control zones and areas where boss spawns or events take place. Nothing can stop your own guild to challenge them but here is where the fun ends because the pay to win aspect of the game becomes the difference between success and failure. But things will get better ...or worse ,only time will tell! The pvp is not mandatory and you can avoid the conflict zones but you'll be missing a lot so i recommend joining a pvp guild and try it before focusing only on pve."

    Huh, I thought that was just in dungeons Interesting ...

    I'm not high enough to worry about it yet. Not that I'd really worry about it.
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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    So at what level can everyone just non-stop kill, corspe camp, teabag, onsite instant kill Asmondgold and its going to be ok?

    Is that level 6?  What will happen when he is out there in the world trying to level past 6 but cant due to instant griefing?  

    Hmmm more rules incoming?
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    Brainy said:
    So at what level can everyone just non-stop kill, corspe camp, teabag, onsite instant kill Asmondgold and its going to be ok?

    Is that level 6?  What will happen when he is out there in the world trying to level past 6 but cant due to instant griefing?  

    Hmmm more rules incoming?
    Yeah, the fixes seem to be as half-baked as the original system.

    A large problem with these games is half the development time ends up getting spent trying to control a few problem children.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,385
    At night is PvP then in T&L. Reminds me a little of Archeage where certain zones would go progressively from PvE to PvP. It was always exciting to plan my trade routes to make sure I don't get ganked along the way. It was a good game where I never PvPed but solely did PvE and enjoyed it a lot skirting around all the PvP zones while also trying to keep the produce fresh and getting the best price available.
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  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    In other news, the MMORPG staff has agreed to ban anyone who speaks ill of Asmongold.
    KyleranScotSovrathAngrakhanKidRisk
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,600
    edited November 16
    Sovrath said:
    ...snip...

    Huh, I thought that was just in dungeons Interesting ...

    I'm not high enough to worry about it yet. Not that I'd really worry about it.
    Haven't played T&L for a couple weeks but events are on a timer you can see on the map and if it has a dove symbol its pve only and if it has crossed sword its pvp enabled event, the event alternate between both and this includes world bosses not just events.

    Granted they have had some updates so maybe it has changed but the pvp at night is just in the open world dungeons.  Way it works the doors usually are open during the day (some few have other conditions like it must be raining) and anyone can enter and do quests etc etc.  When night falls the doors close and no on can enter anymore but it becomes pvp enabled and if you get killed you spawn outside the dungeon.

    Other than that the ruling guild had an ability to cause a blood moon or so once every 24 hours which caused pvp to be enabled for the duration, like I said might it have changed in some recent updates but that how it was when I was playing endgame and the pvp was avoidable and you got to choose to pvp or not.

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  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,017
    Nanfoodle said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    In the end it's a good thing. The updates this week is huge and a big part of that is dealing with PKers. If you loot someone's corpse you are auto flagged for PvP. Starter zones are no longer PvP areas. You can't attack a player till level 5 no matter where you are. I do worry that could lead to people scouting and having that level of protection. See how that works out this weekend. 
    Wouldn't the PKs just move to where the levels 6-10 hunt?
    That's the joy of vertical progression - you know where to hunt your quarry.
    I have watched 4 to 6 low level chars take out someone twice their level. You get your core kit very fast in Ashes. You have to also remember the number of negitve things happens when you go corrupted. 35% less damage is just one of them. This latest change is just one more level. To protect the most vulnerable. Not saying this is going to work. But we are ready to test it and give feedback. The list of things being fixed, updated added a d removed is a long list every week. I didn't think it was going to move this quest. Some of the things added were intended for Phase 2 that starts at the end of December. 
    4-6 low levels can take out a level 10 sure.  Can they take out 2 level 50s?  Not a chance.

    Id like to see if they can make much of the world safe if you have your PvP flag off.  But incentivize folks to turn it on to get an exp bonus or harvesting bonus or movement bonus.  Then in critical area where you want to foster PvP (or eliminate spies) make it an area where anyone can be attacked.  

    And make changing your flag have a 15 minute cooldown or something.


    This is how Ryzom did it and it worked well. Players are safe if they stay out of the PvP areas. There are three ways to PvP:

    1) turn on your PvP flag, then you are effectively open to PvP for the whole map. Good for duels or people who want to open-world PvP. If you aren't flagged you are safe, unless you help someone, say by healing them while they PvP. Then you are in PvP too.

    2) In Ryzom all armor and weapons are player made, no armor or weapons drop from anything or are a reward for anything. Making the best armor and weapons requires the best mats and those are in a PvP zone that is also populated with very high PvE mobs.

    3) Outposts are conquered and controlled by guilds. Outposts produce XP boosters and other special mats. To attack one a guild schedules an attack so the defending guild has a chance to show up to defend it. Also, outposts are protected by NPC guards, the higher the level of the outpost the higher the number of guards.

    So the best guilds have crafters that can make the best items, teams that can go into the PvP zone and get the best mats, and XP boosters and other special mats from the outpost for the members. You can play without PvP, but you won't be able to max your stats or equipment.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    olepi said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    In the end it's a good thing. The updates this week is huge and a big part of that is dealing with PKers. If you loot someone's corpse you are auto flagged for PvP. Starter zones are no longer PvP areas. You can't attack a player till level 5 no matter where you are. I do worry that could lead to people scouting and having that level of protection. See how that works out this weekend. 
    Wouldn't the PKs just move to where the levels 6-10 hunt?
    That's the joy of vertical progression - you know where to hunt your quarry.
    I have watched 4 to 6 low level chars take out someone twice their level. You get your core kit very fast in Ashes. You have to also remember the number of negitve things happens when you go corrupted. 35% less damage is just one of them. This latest change is just one more level. To protect the most vulnerable. Not saying this is going to work. But we are ready to test it and give feedback. The list of things being fixed, updated added a d removed is a long list every week. I didn't think it was going to move this quest. Some of the things added were intended for Phase 2 that starts at the end of December. 
    4-6 low levels can take out a level 10 sure.  Can they take out 2 level 50s?  Not a chance.

    Id like to see if they can make much of the world safe if you have your PvP flag off.  But incentivize folks to turn it on to get an exp bonus or harvesting bonus or movement bonus.  Then in critical area where you want to foster PvP (or eliminate spies) make it an area where anyone can be attacked.  

    And make changing your flag have a 15 minute cooldown or something.


    This is how Ryzom did it and it worked well. Players are safe if they stay out of the PvP areas. There are three ways to PvP:

    1) turn on your PvP flag, then you are effectively open to PvP for the whole map. Good for duels or people who want to open-world PvP. If you aren't flagged you are safe, unless you help someone, say by healing them while they PvP. Then you are in PvP too.

    2) In Ryzom all armor and weapons are player made, no armor or weapons drop from anything or are a reward for anything. Making the best armor and weapons requires the best mats and those are in a PvP zone that is also populated with very high PvE mobs.

    3) Outposts are conquered and controlled by guilds. Outposts produce XP boosters and other special mats. To attack one a guild schedules an attack so the defending guild has a chance to show up to defend it. Also, outposts are protected by NPC guards, the higher the level of the outpost the higher the number of guards.

    So the best guilds have crafters that can make the best items, teams that can go into the PvP zone and get the best mats, and XP boosters and other special mats from the outpost for the members. You can play without PvP, but you won't be able to max your stats or equipment.
    Yeah, I recall these sorts of designs which aren't great as it makes the PVE only player into a second class citizen.

    DAOC started out with variants of the 2nd and 3rd items above but walked back on them before too long. (Probably one reason it thrived while Ryzom didn't)

    Turns out a majority of players didn't want to be yoked into large guild servitude in order to enjoy crafting or even getting decent dropped gear.

    It started out with crafted gear being the best but players love their drops and the system was changed so that a combination of drops and crafted gear worked best to let a player maximize the gear which was stat capped if anyone remembers. 

    I miss the early days of MMORPGs when character power was a combination of avatar individual stats plus gear related stats which also factored in strengths and weaknesses of weapons, armor and magic resistance.

    EVE Online wasn't the only MMO which players used spreadsheets regularly to calculate their builds.   :)







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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,163
    Wargfoot said:
    In other news, the MMORPG staff has agreed to ban anyone who speaks ill of Asmongold.

    You forgot to mention the other updates.

    The policy expires after he hits six posts.

    But wait there is more! The staff has decided to channel their inner Ashes of Creation and scrap all safety rails for Forum PVP. Once he graduates from newbie status its open season on any type of Forum PVP.

    Flaming? Fair game.  Trolling? Encouraged.  Person Attacks? Absolutely.  Harassment? Why not? Its all on the table now.

    Oh and apparently there is a large group that plans to emoji every thread he posts with a "WTF" reaction and top it off with a "Git Gud" reply.

    I've already prepped by having 10 Flaming Troll posts written.

    But hey, its not like anyone is forcing him to stick around. He can always just leave.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    Brainy said:
    Wargfoot said:
    In other news, the MMORPG staff has agreed to ban anyone who speaks ill of Asmongold.

    You forgot to mention the other updates.

    The policy expires after he hits six posts.

    But wait there is more! The staff has decided to channel their inner Ashes of Creation and scrap all safety rails for Forum PVP. Once he graduates from newbie status its open season on any type of Forum PVP.

    Flaming? Fair game.  Trolling? Encouraged.  Person Attacks? Absolutely.  Harassment? Why not? Its all on the table now.

    Oh and apparently there is a large group that plans to emoji every thread he posts with a "WTF" reaction and top it off with a "Git Gud" reply.

    I've already prepped by having 10 Flaming Troll posts written.

    But hey, its not like anyone is forcing him to stick around. He can always just leave.
    I like these ideas, but I need something I can loot off his forum corpse.
    Brainy
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050
    edited November 17
    I haven't kept up with all of the replies.  But I definitely don't think ganking and griefing is a solvable problem.  A line will always be drawn and players will eventually figure out how to avoid crossing it or the devs will overcompensate and everyone quits.

    The WOW pserver community is like 75% PVP server centric.  They eat that stuff up and it becomes hard to find really good PVE servers.

    Also, Asmongold has already said he's done playing PVP servers in any MMO, as he was bullied into doing it for WOW Classic.  He's really not of the right mindset to play that way.


    Kyleran
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,385
    I haven't kept up with all of the replies.  But I definitely don't think ganking and griefing is a solvable problem.  A line will always be drawn and players will eventually figure out how to avoid crossing it or the devs will overcompensate and everyone quits.

    The WOW pserver community is like 75% PVP server centric.  They eat that stuff up and it becomes hard to find really good PVE servers.

    Also, Asmongold has already said he's done playing PVP servers in any MMO, as he was bullied into doing it for WOW Classic.  He's really not of the right mindset to play that way.


    Is it 75% solo centric because I always play on the PvE ones. I found a great Wrath one and am on  that now because I never played Wrath so am levelling from Vanilla > TBC > Wrath and taking my time. It's one of those with their own unique systems and ideas. I swear these private servers have such amazing ideas and they can do so much and tackle the bugs and problems so much better than Blizzard with their large teams. Disgraceful really.
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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164

    Update: couple of things

    1. the xp debt penalty caps at a whole level and you will not drop a level.

    2. the free weapons at lionhold mean you can effectively indefinitely gank people.

    3. lionhold guards are not very strong and you can run away from them easily.

    4. you appear to be quite strong even naked with a rusty sword. at level 10 I can gank levels 1-7 quite easily. I am a fighter.

    5. At corruption level 4 you are seriously gimped across the board: health, damage etc. each level of corruption you lose more gear on death but this doesn't matter to me as I am naked with free rusty swords. if you are clever you can die somewhere quite in a river and pick up your stuff after.

    6. you can kill yourself in a river or something to remove one level of corruption. do this 4 times to get back to normal. much faster than killing mobs to remove corruption.

    Update 2:

    1. you can kill people in lionhold easily enough as long as they are L5 or above. I can kill them naked before guards take me out.

    2. I respawn at lionhold emberspring, get insta killed by guards there. that happens 3 times then i'm good to go again. that whole thing takes less than a minute before I can gank freely in the town again.

    3. I can outrun an entire town's worth of guards on my horse easily.

    My recommendations:

    1. just make lionhold a 100% safe zone. there's no reason whatsoever to allow pvping of any kind there. it's too easy still to gank in there even after recent changes.

    2. i wasn't expecting to be so strong completely naked. I'm wondering is this working as intended? should there be a naked debuff??

    3. get rid of the unlimited free weapons at the start spawn. this would have ended my rampage really early on. I would have run out of money from losing gear after just a few kills. the free weapons let me kill indefinitely.

    4. there probably should be some longer term corruption debuff after death. it's way too easy to reset corruption if you don't care about losing gear and xp.




    This is their idea of solving the issue. Sounds like it is thoroughly simple to get around the system and gank on.
    Asm0deusSlapshot1188KyleranBrainyVrika

  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    1. Introduce "favor of the gods" skills to the game that can only be maintained by having good karma.  To have the top tier skills you need top tier karma.
    2. Introduce "hell" to the game, so when a Pk dies he cannot cycle through the deaths to get rid of bad karma.  "Hell" is a large maze that takes on average 2 hours to escape. You're naked there, few items to scavenge, and the demons are a real problem.
    3. Introduce a karma component such that in battle karma is compared.  If my karma roll beats yours there is a % chance your sword breaks or your spell explodes or other such things - 100% karma is the default and only goes down via murder.

    I'd like to see fixes that expand the game, the chance of something random and funny, and where truly "righteous" players get bonuses against anyone with less than 100% karma.  We should be able to make this fun.
    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    kitarad said:

    Update: couple of things

    1. the xp debt penalty caps at a whole level and you will not drop a level.

    2. the free weapons at lionhold mean you can effectively indefinitely gank people.

    3. lionhold guards are not very strong and you can run away from them easily.

    4. you appear to be quite strong even naked with a rusty sword. at level 10 I can gank levels 1-7 quite easily. I am a fighter.

    5. At corruption level 4 you are seriously gimped across the board: health, damage etc. each level of corruption you lose more gear on death but this doesn't matter to me as I am naked with free rusty swords. if you are clever you can die somewhere quite in a river and pick up your stuff after.

    6. you can kill yourself in a river or something to remove one level of corruption. do this 4 times to get back to normal. much faster than killing mobs to remove corruption.

    Update 2:

    1. you can kill people in lionhold easily enough as long as they are L5 or above. I can kill them naked before guards take me out.

    2. I respawn at lionhold emberspring, get insta killed by guards there. that happens 3 times then i'm good to go again. that whole thing takes less than a minute before I can gank freely in the town again.

    3. I can outrun an entire town's worth of guards on my horse easily.

    My recommendations:

    1. just make lionhold a 100% safe zone. there's no reason whatsoever to allow pvping of any kind there. it's too easy still to gank in there even after recent changes.

    2. i wasn't expecting to be so strong completely naked. I'm wondering is this working as intended? should there be a naked debuff??

    3. get rid of the unlimited free weapons at the start spawn. this would have ended my rampage really early on. I would have run out of money from losing gear after just a few kills. the free weapons let me kill indefinitely.

    4. there probably should be some longer term corruption debuff after death. it's way too easy to reset corruption if you don't care about losing gear and xp.




    This is their idea of solving the issue. Sounds like it is thoroughly simple to get around the system and gank on.
    These are such rookie mistakes in terms of PVP design.  It's like these devs have learned nothing from past attempts to control bad behaviors as almost everything here has been seen and solved before.


    Scot

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    Kyleran said:
    These are such rookie mistakes in terms of PVP design.  It's like these devs have learned nothing from past attempts to control bad behaviors as almost everything here has been seen and solved before.
    This is why I asked about the devs having much experience in the industry but apparently they do. I don't know maybe they have designed the rest of the game and they gave the PvP tagging to the tea boy. :)
    Kyleran
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,050
    cheyane said:
    I haven't kept up with all of the replies.  But I definitely don't think ganking and griefing is a solvable problem.  A line will always be drawn and players will eventually figure out how to avoid crossing it or the devs will overcompensate and everyone quits.

    The WOW pserver community is like 75% PVP server centric.  They eat that stuff up and it becomes hard to find really good PVE servers.

    Also, Asmongold has already said he's done playing PVP servers in any MMO, as he was bullied into doing it for WOW Classic.  He's really not of the right mindset to play that way.


    Is it 75% solo centric because I always play on the PvE ones. I found a great Wrath one and am on  that now because I never played Wrath so am levelling from Vanilla > TBC > Wrath and taking my time. It's one of those with their own unique systems and ideas. I swear these private servers have such amazing ideas and they can do so much and tackle the bugs and problems so much better than Blizzard with their large teams. Disgraceful really.
    I follow the wowservers subreddit and it at least feels that way.  A lot of new servers don't even say whether they are PVP or PVE rulesets which so far has always meant they were PVP.

    Private servers are much better at dealing with issues Blizzard deems too small to take care of.  They are much more hands on with botters, toxicity and such.  And some like ChromieCraft have a github for reporting and tracking bugs.  Oh and that server is opensource.  

    And yeah, pservers are more innovative as well.  Especially Turtle WOW.

    I gave up on classic WOW when I saw the new store only TBC mounts players were running around on.  At this point it's the only MMO I care about that won't let me just come back to look around on my characters without paying a sub.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    Kyleran said:

    These are such rookie mistakes in terms of PVP design.  It's like these devs have learned nothing from past attempts to control bad behaviors as almost everything here has been seen and solved before.


    It's also a symptom of the people Stephen surrounds himself with just nodding and playing along instead of being "that guy" who points out stuff like this on the forums because they don't want to be branded as a "troll" or a "hater" or heaven forbid... a "Harbinger".

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  • lotrlorelotrlore Managing EditorMMORPG.COM Staff, Member RarePosts: 662
    Wargfoot said:
    In other news, the MMORPG staff has agreed to ban anyone who speaks ill of Asmongold.
    Wait what
    BabuinixKyleranScot
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,586
    lotrlore said:
    Wargfoot said:
    In other news, the MMORPG staff has agreed to ban anyone who speaks ill of Slapshot1188.
    Wait what
    He had a typo

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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