Originally posted by Kyoruto Just to bassically be silly. (Personally I wouldn't mind losing one item. Just losing everything everytime would get really annoying) I'm going to go on a roleplay factor. Say... If you were actually your character mind you... Well, ok so you fight someone. They eventually die after a long hard battle. Well, I garentee you that almost 90% of the time their armor is going to be beat to hell and not worth even salvaging. The only spoils in the fight are the stead, and any pocket change. Why would one grab a weapon that is obviously inferrior to yours? Since you won. I mean taking the weapon as a thropy is possable and really doesn't bother the whole ideal of it.
Ostensibly :
1) Many people would be crafting their own stuff 2) So many people craft, that gear is cheap 3) If you can't craft, you can mine, sell the ore, and buy what you need
So the death penalty isn't "you lose all the stuff you camped for" its "you lose all the shit you crafted, and you have more stutf sittng in base."
Maybe the opponents sword is a little bit worse, you put it in storage as a backup sword.
When you die, you go to your chest, and pull out your available equipment.
If you are short on equipment, you go mine, sell the ore on market and buy the stuff you need.
This way death is MEANINGFUL without being PAINFUL.
Thats basically the system in both Eve and Ultima Online.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Maybe just maybe...sombody will come up with the ultimate PvP....
"Log in...
Choose area to Play...
create character....
Log into server...
Only thing you see is red then your loged off....
Try to relog on...."We are sorry but the systems shows you have died. Please return on judgement day for you standings.
As long as PvP deaths are not final, people will want to PvP.
But if you really want a rush? I mean really WANT A MINDBLOWING BODY NUMBING PANTS WETTING RUSH???? Try flying at 20' feet off the ground and 250mph in a multi enging cargo plane...
And Miss...if your out there its hard to see what goes on in a second floor bedroom window at 250mph but your just WOW!!!!
llol herk, This is what happens in PVP servers.. A bunch of small package toteing immature idiots like to beat on noobs.. #1 reason I never join a pvp server.. Because I know once I log in some 17yr old is waiting to gank me..
Nuff said..
[edit] fly an a-10 tank killer... But I'm sure the tank commanders will soon start the b!tchen..
Originally posted by fizzle322 1) Theres no levels in Eve.
2) I was pvping from day 3, I have more kills than ship losses. Got my first kill at 5 days old. Ppl play that game for 2 years and be whinin like "omg you need 20 million sp to be competative in pvp" f*ckin clowns.
People like to use skillpoints as a scapegoat, "you were lucky you have more SP than me" or "you were lucky you had stabs" or "you were lucky you had ECM."
It all comes down to, one of us was better prepared.
PVP is a skilll.
3) Theres many type of skills. Hand-eye coordination. Intelligence to use the proper fittings. Teamwork to team up 2-3 players to your 1.
What does "ganking" mean?
Ganking = Ambush
One person was prepared and the other person was not.
Ambush = Good tactics.
Tactics = Good use of scouting. Knowing where you are, hiding in the bushes ready to jump you. Using my strong force vs your weak force.
Get with it guys, this was all in Sun Tzu.
1.) Maybe there aren't predefined "levels" in EVE, but I think it is fair to say there are "milestones" that make a player vastly more effective eg. microwarpdrive training, tech II weapons training, EW training. Where as fitting ships and adjusting range in combat adds an element of player skill to the equation...running your finger across F1->F8 is hardly what I would call player skill based combat.
2.) I've been playng EVE a long time too as 30+mil sp might suggest, and I have nigh 850-900 decent kills to around 30 losses. I started the game with an eye to PvP and was doing so before I could use a MWD in a Vigil, so I am well aware that PvP isn't all about skillpoints and that you can be successful as a relative newbie. However, skillpoints do have a distinct bearing on the outcome of fights and to convince yourself otherwise is viewing the world through rose tinted spectacles. Vastly increased tracking, damage, range, tanking are permanent bonuses that a PVP specced character will enjoy. Trying to state that warp core stabs or ECM are a scapegoat is simply a joke in my eyes...of course they have a direct bearing on the outcome of a fight and in my opinion both should be removed from game. Modules that give you a free escape route or a plain I WIN button are the epitome of skilless, boring PvP. These modules only encourage the playerbase to form ganksquads, so that they can vapourise a target before it can align to warp and escape or jam a solo hunter.
3.) Ganking is largely nothing to do with ambushing somebody. I am not sure there is any way to be "prepared" by being decimated by a gatecamp or a ganksquad being on top of you, other than avoiding the situation entirely, which is why decent PvP can be very hard to get a lot of the time in EVE. 99% of the time PVP occurs at warpgates where people die because they a.) did not check scanner and either land in a warp bubble or on a swarm of hostile ships waiting at a gate b.) did not check the "local" channel c.) did not scout before jumping into a system. Of course, in EVE what people usually mean by "scouting" is the pathetic use of a trial account or an alt to kamikaze jump ahead of the main group too assess danger, but that's a whole different topic. Either way, a.), b.) & c.) are mistakes largely only made by novices, so when a player gains some knowhow about the game you realise that the people you are killing in the main are either not very good PvP'ers, not paying attention, or are newbies too busy trying to escape to put up any kind of resistance.
On the subject of ambushing and good tactics, well that's the single reason I still have an EVE subscription. Probing someones ship down and landing perfectly on them on warp in, slamming the webber and scrams on them then letting a full rack of dual 650 II's rip into their hull, while the tacklers and drones spin around the target like a swarm of mosquitos is pretty decent fun when it all goes well...but most of the time enemies simply logoff to avoid combat, instadock or hover between safe spots. When PVP in EVE is good, while not FFA Open PvP, it is very fun....but most of the time it is a waiting game which requires no inherent player skills, bar patience.
Originally posted by rpgmachine Originally posted by Ranma13 The reason why FFA PVP fails is because there's no penalty for random ganking and bullying lower-leveled people.
...Which is why it's time for player skill based MMORPG's with no levels
Well, what do you mean by skill-based? If you're talking about Ultima Online where you grind out skills instead of levels, you're just replacing one grind with another. If you're talking about EVE Online, it's more about knowing how to set up your ship than really anything you do during combat. It's an undisputable fact that current MMORPGs are more about equipment and levels rather than skills. Once people get a hang of the game, they pretty much know how to use their skills as well as the next person. There might be some differences, like one person who casts skills in a better order than another person, or casts them faster, but for the most part they are minor compared to how big equipment and skills come into play.
I totally agree with you and I personally dislike level and item based PvP completely. When I say "skill based" I mean PLAYER skill based, which in my eyes would ideally combine a high level of hand/eye coordination, tactics, strategy and ingenuity to excel.
I'm not talking about EVE at all and I also don't think UO was perfect by any stretch, but the PVP in UO was certainly to a standard which has not been repeated in any modern MMO's. I am looking toward games that combine the FPS and RPG genres in particular into something new and really take PVP gaming to the next level.
FFA PvP sucks because asshats will gank people at random at a huge advantage so it's not a fair kind of PvP
to which Steelarm011 wrote:
This argument has been sung so many times it makes my ears sore. Please...spare us. Come on...please? I guess not, since thats the only argument you have against this.
That particular arguement is used because it's true. Why do you want the odds stacked completely in your favor? Because YOU have no backbone and can't compete unless the game is greatly handicapped in your favor. Otherwise you'd be playing BattleField 2, Rise of Legends, Soul Calibur 3, Forza Motorsport, Madden 07, chess, checkers, tic tac toe, etc.
Face it, these games are closer to organized sports than war. So all that bullshit about "backbone" and "courage" are nothing but a lot of hot air. It saddens me that people like you have the audacity to call yourself PvPers. And why aren't you also supporting permadeath?
I've got an idea! Why don't we make a game that's free to play, but people have to pay real money for in game currency, and make it full loot? I'm sure you'd be cool with that Steel, you have "backbone" and "courage!" If you're just SOOOOOOO harder core than thou, I'm sure you can take losing a few bucks in FFA PvP.
I also love your arguement that PvE is always weak. It's been long time knowledge among game developers that it's really kind of easy to make a single player game that's totally impossible to beat. The fact that MMORPGs get it wrong every single time doesn't mean that PvE has to be challengless and boring. It just is at the moment. If MMORPG developers would take a cue from the mobs in single player games (different behaviours and methods for different mobs), then this wouldn't be so much of an issue.
I was on UO during the Second Age expansion and it sucked. Not just because of the l33t d00dz that ran around talking shit and killing people for no reason. But also because of thieves, beggers, and the most annoying user interface known to man. Sometimes I felt like the interface was conspiring to kill me. No Joke.
I've been on MUDs with FFA PvP with PERMADEATH and had one hell of a good time. Of course, the communty of a MUD is much smaller and easier to regulate so that dickheads that killed lowbies or ganked people compulsively could be taken care of a lot quicker.
Check out DartMUD for a game that does the FFA PvP permadeath thing right.
As a side note: about a year ago, someone made mention that the FFA PvP arguement tended to pop up more at the beginning of the school year. Lo and behold, people have been moving into the dorms on campus all weekend. Coincidence? I think not.
Open pvp provides for a richer set of tactics that you can use to defeat foes.
Dueling is not PVP, dueling is dueling.
PVP without loss is not PVP.
As far as PVP goes, Eve is the perfect game, I love it, its ruthless.
You seem pretty full of yourself. "people don't like to lose items because higher level players kill them, which is the result of pvp with open loot system, so they don't have backbone and are cowards". its just sad. its also nice how you create such a lovely story about how open pvp works, its just sad the truth is far from that. THIS is what happens in open pvp with player loot most of the time: Player A, High level, runs up to player B,low level, kills him in 1~2 blows, takes all the stuff and simply laughs. no bushes. no backshoot. plain ganking, which happens in pvp MOST OF THE TIME.
This argument has been sung so many times it makes my ears sore. Please...spare us. Come on...please? I guess not, since thats the only argument you have against this.
The scenario you give us is something that happens in PvP. But it doesnt happen most of the time. In reality, there are probably more fair fights because people reach max level. Not only that, but its only the bad fights that are remembered.
Have you even PLAYED games with player looting? fair fights, my ass. fairs fights are rare, very rare. maybe in games like WoW, Daoc and AO, which don't contain player looting. the fights in Pre-Trammel UO, Runescape, EVE, Lineage 2 and more games with player looting sure as hell aren't fair fights most of the time. high level ganking low levels is simply what happens most.
Of course I have, thats why I support it. Ive had my share of plenty fair fights in those games, and then I had my plenty share of fights that werent so fair. But they were still fun. Sometimes I would gank people lower in then level than me...so what? Its the spirit of the game.
If you really had played those games a lot, you would have known that MOST fights are UNFAIR. if you think ganking people lower level then you is the "spirit of the game", is just plain sad. so what? in pvp with full loot, you lose your equipment you worked hard for because some high level dude found it necisary to take it and sell it for money, leaving you without equipment, thats what.
And now youre saying theres a difference between games with looting and no looting? The fights in Runescape and EVE and whatnot are JUST AS FAIR as those in WoW and DAOC. People still gank you, people still come out of nowhere as high levels and gank you. The only difference is that your dropping items. Saying that all high levels gank low levels on a regular basis is a generalization thats simply not true. Its more of a 50/50, because I see plenty of high levels fighting high levels out there. The only reason you think that theres more high levels ganking lowbies is because everyone whines about it.
No its not, because pvp in games like WoW and Daoc are more like a sport. you don't lose anything at all. in pvp with full loot, you have the chance you lose your equipment if you attack somebody because you can lose. people rather not take the risk of losing the stuff and just gank lower levels because they aren't that risky. saying its 50/50 is pure ignorance. you might see that in games like WoW and Daoc, but definitly not in player looting games. there its 80/20, with the majority being ganking lower level player. its not generalization, its the truth. EA didn't change the game pvp wise because they want to ruin the game, they did it because pkers actually keep ruining the fun of lower level players. and thats why there are so little pvp games with player loot around.
Its people like you who simply cant take getting ganked. Youve lost the spirit of gaming, and I feel sorry for you. I dont know what happened to you, but its a sad lot. Okay, so they killed you...get over it. There are PLENTY of fair fights out there that ive had in AC, DAOC, and WoW. And Im NOT going to sacrifice it because some player like you cant take seeing his character killed by a high level. Toughen up - alright your character died. Big deal.
You need to buy yourself some glasses. like I said in previous posts, I don't mind pvp ganking in the games you mentioned because they DON'T have playerlooting. I said, and this time read carefully, that I dislike ganking in game that has heavy consequences such as player looting. get it? alright your character died. big deal, thats how I feel exactly. alright, your character died and lost all the stuff you worked hard for. suddenly it does gets annoying when your character dies.
Oh so now its about the looting.
Sherlock, this entire topic is about player looting....
If your not allowed to loot, where the hell is the adrenaline? Wheres the excitement? Knowing that if you kill someone you may just get a great item. You forget that it works both ways, and thats what makes the game so exicting.
and thats why I say you are not a true pvp player. you first need all kinds of consequences in pvp before you feel the adrenaline and excitement. you don't focus on the fun of actually pvping, you only do it for the reward. keep in mind that it does NOT work both ways, because 9 out of 10 times your enemy is level 90, and you are level 50. or the other way around, depends if your a true pvp player or not. (change levels with skills if you play skill based games)
I KNOW that you dont mind ganking without playlooting/heacy consequences becuase I KNOW you like the games that are utopias. And who said you lost ALL your stuff? I dont know any game except one or two than did that or plan on doing that. On DT on AC (Probably the best gaming expierience Ive ever had - ask anyone) even there wasnt full looting in that game and its considered the most brutal FFA PvP server in the world. And it didnt get annoying when my char died back then, cause I got used to it. I'd say to myself "Okay man, I gotta toughen up - ok, I died. I'll get even better items next time and work harder". Are you afraid to do that?
yeah man, I fully agree with you. you have to toughen up for a G A M E . let me geuss, you play while having the "Eye of the tiger" music in the background. you didn't find it annoying, congratulations. enjoy it while it last, because most players DO find it annoying.
PvP gives a higher dynamic to the game and is the true nature of multiplayer. It gives you tactics, it forces you to group up for defense and offense, and it gives you a thrill that a computer cant give you. It forces you to move and travel in directions that are not normally thought of in the game. It makes the game an adventure. I'll definitly trade that for a couple bad kills by a high level once in awhile.
Please speak for yourself.
No, I'll speak for the majority.
yes, we noticed that. thats why WoW, a PVE game has over 6.5 million subscribers were AC:DT has about 2000 players and EVE about 120k. get your facts right.
You enjoy farming and raiding over and over? You enjoy getting killed and killing with no consequences? Fine go ahead, live in your utopia, but then dont cry that the game gets boring. Because it does....most people eventually figure out theres more to gaming than clicking on fireball shooting down a raid boss over and over.
yeah, for example I can go pvp in the game which is unbalanced and most of the time leads to frustration, or I can load up Battlefield 2 or Counterstrike and actually have fair fights.
You cant have fair fights in them either, cause no matter what someone is gonna attack you first and someone is gonna have a better weapon. There is no such thing as a fair fight. If your looking for a fair fight then MMO's certainly arent it. You do it not for the fair fight, but for the multiplayer aspect of it. Your answer means nothing .
Wow, talk aboug beint clueless. you can have fair fights, because both you and your opponent have the same chance to get the good weapons. there are fair fights, you need to look up the word "fair" in the dictionary. if you do it for the multiplayer aspect, then you might as well play battlefield,because that is also mutliplayer. its your answer that means nothing
By my book, fizzle is 100% correct. PvP without conseuqences is not really PvP, its a utopia. And we all know a utopia gets boring real fast.
pvp stands for player vs player. no mention of consequences or item looting. its a FACT pvp without consequences is still pvp.
Okay fine, get all technical on me. You know what I mean. I hope.
The grim future will ONLY be confirmed when Darkfall dies. (note to trolls: it's not dead yet,nor was it ever dead.) And it's still in progress with an ambitious beta of late 2006,so I keep 'hope' for a full-on PvP experience.
And if not,oh well there are decent PvP/PvE games coming out anyway. WAR. Age of Conan. Fallen Earth. POTBS. Aion.
Blah... Not everyone can get the uber items like you say. Since WoW only 20% of them throughout the servers ever even experianced rag. There will always be someone that has better gear. Since WoW is for the "causual" base they don't want to or have time to spend on 6 hour raids. So he is right there is no equal chance of getting items. Thats a whole crock of BS.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Steelarm011Again like I said before, it saddens me to see payers out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Why on earth would I care if a guy thinks I'm cool when his 'coolness' is about beating up people in a computer game and taking their stuff and his idea of 'tough' has to do with sitting around watching some pixels get beaten up? Yeah, you and your "I'm so cool and tough, my computer game character beat that computer game character up!" buddies can pat each other on the back and tell each other how much backbone you have, but you're not exactly convincing anyone to change their mind.
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game.
This whole spiel is just absurd, because it ignores the fact that the OP, this thread, and indeed 'hardcore' PVPers in general say that a game is not real unless you can take people's stuff. In most games, it takes longer than 15 minutes to create a new set of gear (often its hours) and a PVP fight lasts less than 5 minutes. Why would I want to keep going and getting replacement gear every time I lose a fight, I'd be spending less time on the enjoyable part of the game than on boring stuff?
When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
In an FPS, how long does it take on average to recover from being killed? In my experience, you spend maybe a minute running somewhere to grab a gun and hop back into the fray. My spirit is busy playing games for fun instead of trying to be 'cool' or 'tough'. And laughing at the whole idea of some basement-dwelling geek looking for a virtual victim complaining that people who don't share his entertainment preferences are weak or 'pampered'.
Originally posted by Steelarm011Again like I said before, it saddens me to see payers out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Why on earth would I care if a guy thinks I'm cool when his 'coolness' is about beating up people in a computer game and taking their stuff and his idea of 'tough' has to do with sitting around watching some pixels get beaten up? Yeah, you and your "I'm so cool and tough, my computer game character beat that computer game character up!" buddies can pat each other on the back and tell each other how much backbone you have, but you're not exactly convincing anyone to change their mind.
It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums.
I never said it WAS cool to be tough to beat up people and gank them. Read my wording again before you give me another lame response like the rest this thread has seen. This is the same type of response that we all get "You think youre cool and tough cause you like to kill other players and be mean and be a bully!" give me a break, it doesnt work like that. Not all players want to be mean and bully others. ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games.
I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact.
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game.
This whole spiel is just absurd, because it ignores the fact that the OP, this thread, and indeed 'hardcore' PVPers in general say that a game is not real unless you can take people's stuff. In most games, it takes longer than 15 minutes to create a new set of gear (often its hours) and a PVP fight lasts less than 5 minutes. Why would I want to keep going and getting replacement gear every time I lose a fight, I'd be spending less time on the enjoyable part of the game than on boring stuff?
When did the OP say that? This thread is about hardcore PvP vs Modern lame PvP involving deaths that turn you into ghosts without any consequences. Whoever said that you'll be losing all your gear at once? Waah waah waahh...stop whining. So what if you lose your chestpiece? Get a new one, it doesnt have to be the best-omg-uber l337 platemail of doom. You can kill people and get a new one of your own. Thats the best part about it, the freedom. Your so concentrated on the GRIND that you forget your also able to PvP and reap the benefits. Waah waah. Get a bottle.
When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
In an FPS, how long does it take on average to recover from being killed? In my experience, you spend maybe a minute running somewhere to grab a gun and hop back into the fray. My spirit is busy playing games for fun instead of trying to be 'cool' or 'tough'. And laughing at the whole idea of some basement-dwelling geek looking for a virtual victim complaining that people who don't share his entertainment preferences are weak or 'pampered'.
It can take you almost instantanously to 2 or 3 minutes. How long does it take you in MMO's to ressurect? Umm....a minute maybe? Maybe even less.
"My spirit is busy playing games for fun instead of trying to be 'cool' or 'tough'. And laughing at the whole idea of some basement-dwelling geek looking for a virtual victim complaining that people who don't share his entertainment preferences are weak or 'pampered'."
Your response hasmore words in it trying to flame methan getting to tell any facts. Your spirit is more busy not playing games but WHINING ABOUT IT and flaming people like me on these forums who are trying to get you to see it a different way, but apparently your too thickheaded to realize that.
Get your facts straight before you try to counter my argument again. This response has been a waste of my time.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Play a Korean game. They're all about hardcore PvP. I guarantee that you won't often be on the winning side because they're obsessive about their games, so it'll be interesting to see how you change your tune after hitting that particular brick wall.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums. But see, the implicit assumption in this comment is that the people responding to you -- for instance myself and Pan -- who are saying they don't like PVP or player looting, are trying to be cool. Pan and I both told you, we aren't trying to be cool. We're playing games to have fun, and avoiding what isn't fun.By constantly making references to "being cool" yourself, you are indicating that this is, at least in part, what motivates you. It is what you think about -- since none of the people you're responding to have ever mentioned being cool themsevles until you brought it up, and since you keep bringing it up, it must be on YOUR mind. And when we've said it is not on our minds at all (being cool) you have just taken out the flamethrower over it.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games. And some of us want to have fun without having other players put those restrictions on is (which is what is happening when you PK someone without warning -- you are basically putting a restriction on that player's gameplay). I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact. So if you find something boring, that is a fact. If we find a different thing boring (say, PVP just in general) we are "without backbone" or "trying to be cool" or perhaps carebears? Why not just accept that not everyone has fun the way you do? Since, that is reality. I don't care much for PVP, but it would never cross my mind to suggest that PVP should not exist, or that there shouldn't be open PVP games out there. If people want to make (and play) those games, go ahead! I understand that my preferences are evidence only of my preferenes -- and not of any "facts" about what other people may or may not like. I am particularly entertained that you said this...
Your so concentrated on the GRIND that you forget your also able to PvP and reap the benefits. Waah waah. Get a bottle. Note the part I highlighted. Then you have the nerve to post this:
Your response hasmore words in it trying to flame methan getting to tell any facts.
Saying "Waah waah. Get a bottle" is also a flame. I'll stipulate that Pan flamed you, but you've been flaming anyone who disagrees with you by calling them basically a baby (which is what "get a bottle" means), and various other names. If you want to disagree with someone, go ahead. But calling them whiners because they disagree with you is not a very good way to persuade anyone of your case.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011
It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums. But see, the implicit assumption in this comment is that the people responding to you -- for instance myself and Pan -- who are saying they don't like PVP or player looting, are trying to be cool. Pan and I both told you, we aren't trying to be cool. We're playing games to have fun, and avoiding what isn't fun.By constantly making references to "being cool" yourself, you are indicating that this is, at least in part, what motivates you. It is what you think about -- since none of the people you're responding to have ever mentioned being cool themsevles until you brought it up, and since you keep bringing it up, it must be on YOUR mind. And when we've said it is not on our minds at all (being cool) you have just taken out the flamethrower over it.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games. And some of us want to have fun without having other players put those restrictions on is (which is what is happening when you PK someone without warning -- you are basically putting a restriction on that player's gameplay). I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact. So if you find something boring, that is a fact. If we find a different thing boring (say, PVP just in general) we are "without backbone" or "trying to be cool" or perhaps carebears? Why not just accept that not everyone has fun the way you do? Since, that is reality. I don't care much for PVP, but it would never cross my mind to suggest that PVP should not exist, or that there shouldn't be open PVP games out there. If people want to make (and play) those games, go ahead! I understand that my preferences are evidence only of my preferenes -- and not of any "facts" about what other people may or may not like. I am particularly entertained that you said this...
Your so concentrated on the GRIND that you forget your also able to PvP and reap the benefits. Waah waah. Get a bottle. Note the part I highlighted. Then you have the nerve to post this:
Your response hasmore words in it trying to flame methan getting to tell any facts.
Saying "Waah waah. Get a bottle" is also a flame. I'll stipulate that Pan flamed you, but you've been flaming anyone who disagrees with you by calling them basically a baby (which is what "get a bottle" means), and various other names. If you want to disagree with someone, go ahead. But calling them whiners because they disagree with you is not a very good way to persuade anyone of your case.
My comments in bold white.
Cheesack, that is by far some of the most well written comments i've seen in a while on this site. I do not know where you gain all this patience you seem to have. I commend you for it though. Because I gave up on Steel's post quite a while ago. It's hard to convey thoughts and opinions to someone, that doesn't recognize any except his own. Well done, Cheesack. Well done.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011 It seems like the current trend is that to be cool you have to hate PvP and playerlooting. I see it all the time on these forums. But see, the implicit assumption in this comment is that the people responding to you -- for instance myself and Pan -- who are saying they don't like PVP or player looting, are trying to be cool. Pan and I both told you, we aren't trying to be cool. We're playing games to have fun, and avoiding what isn't fun. By constantly making references to "being cool" yourself, you are indicating that this is, at least in part, what motivates you. It is what you think about -- since none of the people you're responding to have ever mentioned being cool themsevles until you brought it up, and since you keep bringing it up, it must be on YOUR mind. And when we've said it is not on our minds at all (being cool) you have just taken out the flamethrower over it. It does not motivate me. This is what I see on these forums, this is what I read. So this is what I assume. I'm just taking in what I see. You guys are focusing on this "cool" bit which is not the point. The point of the matter is, I see a trend of people favoring a more passive, boring side of games. You say I'm missing the point...but I'm not. You keep on focusing that I think I'm cool cause I like to kill people. I dont. Youre missing the point. Open up your thoughts. I'm talking about this trend that I'm seeing in players.
ALot of us want to have fun and have freedom and not have the restrictions that developers put on the games. And some of us want to have fun without having other players put those restrictions on is (which is what is happening when you PK someone without warning -- you are basically putting a restriction on that player's gameplay). I see so many people posting on these forums complaining how boring it is....and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact. So if you find something boring, that is a fact. If we find a different thing boring (say, PVP just in general) we are "without backbone" or "trying to be cool" or perhaps carebears? Why not just accept that not everyone has fun the way you do? Since, that is reality. I don't care much for PVP, but it would never cross my mind to suggest that PVP should not exist, or that there shouldn't be open PVP games out there. If people want to make (and play) those games, go ahead! I understand that my preferences are evidence only of my preferenes -- and not of any "facts" about what other people may or may not like. I do accept that everyone has fun theyre own way. Now youre treating me like I am some kind of videogamer terrorist. I'm not. I am simply trying to put your view like mine. Stop trying to make me the enemy and you the victim, because it really is the other way around. I am particularly entertained that you said this...
Your so concentrated on the GRIND that you forget your also able to PvP and reap the benefits. Waah waah. Get a bottle. Note the part I highlighted. Then you have the nerve to post this:
Your response hasmore words in it trying to flame methan getting to tell any facts.
Saying "Waah waah. Get a bottle" is also a flame. I'll stipulate that Pan flamed you, but you've been flaming anyone who disagrees with you by calling them basically a baby (which is what "get a bottle" means), and various other names. If you want to disagree with someone, go ahead. But calling them whiners because they disagree with you is not a very good way to persuade anyone of your case. When have I been flaming anyone? Look in my past posts, get your facts straight, Chessak. I have been polite and I havent resorted to flaming anyone in my past posts, including you. Making me the bad guy wont help your argument Chessak, cause right now you have none. Pan's may have been a flame, but it didnt have any ill intent to it. I was trying to slap him back into his senses. Maybe it worked, maybe it didnt. My posts may contain caps but thats because I simply want you to read what Im saying, because it seems to me like you skip right over my points. Again, your making me the enemy in this when in reality there is none. My comments in bold white.
Originally posted by Roin Cheesack, that is by far some of the most well written comments i've seen in a while on this site. I do not know where you gain all this patience you seem to have. I commend you for it though. Because I gave up on Steel's post quite a while ago. It's hard to convey thoughts and opinions to someone, that doesn't recognize any except his own. Well done, Cheesack. Well done.
No wonder why no one speaks out theyre opinions on PvP anymore. Again, you assume that I am some type of monster because I try to convey my ideas to you. You can treat me like I am crazy and that I dont listen, but I do. All of my past posts with the exception of this last one have included politeness, opinions and facts, acknowledgements of someone else's post, and an argument. There is nothing wrong in trying to tell you my opinion. But to you apparently there is, because I dont agree with you.
I acknowledge that you dont like losing your stuff when you die and that you may not like it, that you think its tough or that its bad or whatever. I know that, its the same song that has been sung. I know you cant stand some of the bullies that are online.
Treating me like I am some type of monster isnt helping your argument. No wonder why no one speaks out on these topics anymore, cause God forbid I disagree with you on hardcore PvP I may just be tooooo rough for you and tooooo mean. Since I like hardcore PvP I'm a mean person that sits in my basement, right? I sit in my basement all day with my mother and Im some geek with glasses, like Pan states, like all the other people who like a bit more freedom in their games to do what they want.
You know what really entertained me? When you said "Beautiful post" to Pan's post, when his post contained around a paragraph of flames. When I get my post in, I get berated for 5 words of flames that werent even intended to hurt him. It just amazes me at the blatant....prejudice. Yes, probably the name for whats going on here. You automatically assume that I am a mean person thats a geek that sits in his basement that wears glasses, that thinks "people are weak and have no backbone" because I like PvP. Me and the countless other people who are afraid to speak on here.
Guess what? Thats a form of prejudice.
I'm not being the closeminded one, you are. Instead of trying to acknowledge what I'm saying or at least respect my opinion youve made me the bad guy on here which is a common tactic on these forums with these types of arguments. You havent acknowledged anything that Ive posted, and yet berated me, told me "I'm a flamer" when I got flamed alot more by Pan, told me I'm close minded, and god knows what else. I suggest you look over what you have posted and maybe come up with a nicer response that maybe acknowledges what I said next time.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
so I'm curious - what is a non-carebear mmorpg nowadays?
I played EQ1 a while, on and off, since pre-POP but slowly it became easier and easier and I still enjoy it but it maybe compromised too much. I tried EQ2, looks good and is fun, but kinda dull in the end, too linear, too user-friendly - it just wants to be liked! Tried WOW, again, nice looking but far too linear, too much like a train track without enough opportunity to go it alone. Tried Final Fantasy - got bored, Tried A Tale in the Desert - very good but I'm not a crafter, SWG - nice idea but what happened to the execution? Tried OU, but got bored of the interface. Tried Dungeon Siege - mmorpg for arcade-heads. (EDIT: Also played Anarchy Online, had fun but couldn't quite discover the point on an ongoing basis.)
So I tried a few, and maybe a few more; some I spent a long time on, some not alot.
But the trend seems to be going towards easy gameplay, nice graphics, unchallenging story line. I was considering Eve, but got a little retro instead and currently enjoying Shadowbane.
So you guys who know, tell me, what should I be playing right now? What's challenging? Interesting? NON- Carebear (I don't need to be patronised by my games).
The only MMO I've ever seen with a remotely intresting PvP is Planetside.
When I play RPG games PvP isn't what I seek, RPG is. I like it that I don't have to RPG alone and can share that gametype with other friends who like to RPG.
I also like to PvP. My current top PvP games are Hidden and Dangerous 2, Warhammer 40K and War World.
I used to enjoy playing Diablo 2 on Hardcore mode, and all the PvP games I play have one life only. Death penalties is not something that overly upsets me. I do however like to have already full explored the game before I go down that path. For me, It's a way of gaining extra replayability by increasing the difficulty level not enhancing the original content in some way.
My first love in multiplayer games is co-operative play. It's the equaliser. In this way you can play with friends of all levels of gaming skill and not find it boring. I find for PvP to be rewarding you must stream yourself with players of similar aptitude and capability or either own everything with boring predictability or constantly instagib without knowing why.
PVP Hardcore players? Yes I should imagine the future is quite grim for MMO's. The unfortunate facts of life is that not enough people enjoy that type of gameplay to warrant making it.
Comments
1) Many people would be crafting their own stuff
2) So many people craft, that gear is cheap
3) If you can't craft, you can mine, sell the ore, and buy what you need
So the death penalty isn't "you lose all the stuff you camped for" its "you lose all the shit you crafted, and you have more stutf sittng in base."
Maybe the opponents sword is a little bit worse, you put it in storage as a backup sword.
When you die, you go to your chest, and pull out your available equipment.
If you are short on equipment, you go mine, sell the ore on market and buy the stuff you need.
This way death is MEANINGFUL without being PAINFUL.
Thats basically the system in both Eve and Ultima Online.
does that mean that the losers gloves are inferior?
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But if you want to run around a kill noobs and loot them for all they are worth, then have fun losing ppl in your favorite mmo..
Ok eight pages of "PvP is soooooooo sick" thread.
Maybe just maybe...sombody will come up with the ultimate PvP....
"Log in...
Choose area to Play...
create character....
Log into server...
Only thing you see is red then your loged off....
Try to relog on...."We are sorry but the systems shows you have died. Please return on judgement day for you standings.
As long as PvP deaths are not final, people will want to PvP.
But if you really want a rush? I mean really WANT A MINDBLOWING BODY NUMBING PANTS WETTING RUSH???? Try flying at 20' feet off the ground and 250mph in a multi enging cargo plane...
And Miss...if your out there its hard to see what goes on in a second floor bedroom window at 250mph but your just WOW!!!!
llol herk, This is what happens in PVP servers.. A bunch of small package toteing immature idiots like to beat on noobs.. #1 reason I never join a pvp server.. Because I know once I log in some 17yr old is waiting to gank me..
Nuff said..
[edit] fly an a-10 tank killer... But I'm sure the tank commanders will soon start the b!tchen..
1.) Maybe there aren't predefined "levels" in EVE, but I think it is fair to say there are "milestones" that make a player vastly more effective eg. microwarpdrive training, tech II weapons training, EW training. Where as fitting ships and adjusting range in combat adds an element of player skill to the equation...running your finger across F1->F8 is hardly what I would call player skill based combat.
2.) I've been playng EVE a long time too as 30+mil sp might suggest, and I have nigh 850-900 decent kills to around 30 losses. I started the game with an eye to PvP and was doing so before I could use a MWD in a Vigil, so I am well aware that PvP isn't all about skillpoints and that you can be successful as a relative newbie. However, skillpoints do have a distinct bearing on the outcome of fights and to convince yourself otherwise is viewing the world through rose tinted spectacles. Vastly increased tracking, damage, range, tanking are permanent bonuses that a PVP specced character will enjoy. Trying to state that warp core stabs or ECM are a scapegoat is simply a joke in my eyes...of course they have a direct bearing on the outcome of a fight and in my opinion both should be removed from game. Modules that give you a free escape route or a plain I WIN button are the epitome of skilless, boring PvP. These modules only encourage the playerbase to form ganksquads, so that they can vapourise a target before it can align to warp and escape or jam a solo hunter.
3.) Ganking is largely nothing to do with ambushing somebody. I am not sure there is any way to be "prepared" by being decimated by a gatecamp or a ganksquad being on top of you, other than avoiding the situation entirely, which is why decent PvP can be very hard to get a lot of the time in EVE. 99% of the time PVP occurs at warpgates where people die because they a.) did not check scanner and either land in a warp bubble or on a swarm of hostile ships waiting at a gate b.) did not check the "local" channel c.) did not scout before jumping into a system. Of course, in EVE what people usually mean by "scouting" is the pathetic use of a trial account or an alt to kamikaze jump ahead of the main group too assess danger, but that's a whole different topic. Either way, a.), b.) & c.) are mistakes largely only made by novices, so when a player gains some knowhow about the game you realise that the people you are killing in the main are either not very good PvP'ers, not paying attention, or are newbies too busy trying to escape to put up any kind of resistance.
On the subject of ambushing and good tactics, well that's the single reason I still have an EVE subscription. Probing someones ship down and landing perfectly on them on warp in, slamming the webber and scrams on them then letting a full rack of dual 650 II's rip into their hull, while the tacklers and drones spin around the target like a swarm of mosquitos is pretty decent fun when it all goes well...but most of the time enemies simply logoff to avoid combat, instadock or hover between safe spots. When PVP in EVE is good, while not FFA Open PvP, it is very fun....but most of the time it is a waiting game which requires no inherent player skills, bar patience.
Well, what do you mean by skill-based? If you're talking about Ultima Online where you grind out skills instead of levels, you're just replacing one grind with another. If you're talking about EVE Online, it's more about knowing how to set up your ship than really anything you do during combat. It's an undisputable fact that current MMORPGs are more about equipment and levels rather than skills. Once people get a hang of the game, they pretty much know how to use their skills as well as the next person. There might be some differences, like one person who casts skills in a better order than another person, or casts them faster, but for the most part they are minor compared to how big equipment and skills come into play.
I totally agree with you and I personally dislike level and item based PvP completely. When I say "skill based" I mean PLAYER skill based, which in my eyes would ideally combine a high level of hand/eye coordination, tactics, strategy and ingenuity to excel.
I'm not talking about EVE at all and I also don't think UO was perfect by any stretch, but the PVP in UO was certainly to a standard which has not been repeated in any modern MMO's. I am looking toward games that combine the FPS and RPG genres in particular into something new and really take PVP gaming to the next level.
FFA PvP sucks because asshats will gank people at random at a huge advantage so it's not a fair kind of PvP
to which Steelarm011 wrote:
This argument has been sung so many times it makes my ears sore. Please...spare us. Come on...please? I guess not, since thats the only argument you have against this.
That particular arguement is used because it's true. Why do you want the odds stacked completely in your favor? Because YOU have no backbone and can't compete unless the game is greatly handicapped in your favor. Otherwise you'd be playing BattleField 2, Rise of Legends, Soul Calibur 3, Forza Motorsport, Madden 07, chess, checkers, tic tac toe, etc.
Face it, these games are closer to organized sports than war. So all that bullshit about "backbone" and "courage" are nothing but a lot of hot air. It saddens me that people like you have the audacity to call yourself PvPers. And why aren't you also supporting permadeath?
I've got an idea! Why don't we make a game that's free to play, but people have to pay real money for in game currency, and make it full loot? I'm sure you'd be cool with that Steel, you have "backbone" and "courage!" If you're just SOOOOOOO harder core than thou, I'm sure you can take losing a few bucks in FFA PvP.
I also love your arguement that PvE is always weak. It's been long time knowledge among game developers that it's really kind of easy to make a single player game that's totally impossible to beat. The fact that MMORPGs get it wrong every single time doesn't mean that PvE has to be challengless and boring. It just is at the moment. If MMORPG developers would take a cue from the mobs in single player games (different behaviours and methods for different mobs), then this wouldn't be so much of an issue.
I was on UO during the Second Age expansion and it sucked. Not just because of the l33t d00dz that ran around talking shit and killing people for no reason. But also because of thieves, beggers, and the most annoying user interface known to man. Sometimes I felt like the interface was conspiring to kill me. No Joke.
I've been on MUDs with FFA PvP with PERMADEATH and had one hell of a good time. Of course, the communty of a MUD is much smaller and easier to regulate so that dickheads that killed lowbies or ganked people compulsively could be taken care of a lot quicker.
Check out DartMUD for a game that does the FFA PvP permadeath thing right.
As a side note: about a year ago, someone made mention that the FFA PvP arguement tended to pop up more at the beginning of the school year. Lo and behold, people have been moving into the dorms on campus all weekend. Coincidence? I think not.
Oh yeah, GET A JOB!!!
Player A, High level, runs up to player B,low level, kills him in 1~2 blows, takes all the stuff and simply laughs. no bushes. no backshoot. plain ganking, which happens in pvp MOST OF THE TIME.
"cover, concealment,inteligence,scouting,sniping"?
oh, you mean
level,equipment,time invested,connection speed,items?
pvp without loss is pvp, sorry.
Another $100 in my bank. Man, Im gonna be rich!
This argument has been sung so many times it makes my ears sore. Please...spare us. Come on...please? I guess not, since thats the only argument you have against this.
The scenario you give us is something that happens in PvP. But it doesnt happen most of the time. In reality, there are probably more fair fights because people reach max level. Not only that, but its only the bad fights that are remembered.
Have you even PLAYED games with player looting? fair fights, my ass. fairs fights are rare, very rare. maybe in games like WoW, Daoc and AO, which don't contain player looting. the fights in Pre-Trammel UO, Runescape, EVE, Lineage 2 and more games with player looting sure as hell aren't fair fights most of the time. high level ganking low levels is simply what happens most.
Of course I have, thats why I support it. Ive had my share of plenty fair fights in those games, and then I had my plenty share of fights that werent so fair. But they were still fun. Sometimes I would gank people lower in then level than me...so what? Its the spirit of the game.
If you really had played those games a lot, you would have known that MOST fights are UNFAIR. if you think ganking people lower level then you is the "spirit of the game", is just plain sad. so what? in pvp with full loot, you lose your equipment you worked hard for because some high level dude found it necisary to take it and sell it for money, leaving you without equipment, thats what.
And now youre saying theres a difference between games with looting and no looting? The fights in Runescape and EVE and whatnot are JUST AS FAIR as those in WoW and DAOC. People still gank you, people still come out of nowhere as high levels and gank you. The only difference is that your dropping items. Saying that all high levels gank low levels on a regular basis is a generalization thats simply not true. Its more of a 50/50, because I see plenty of high levels fighting high levels out there. The only reason you think that theres more high levels ganking lowbies is because everyone whines about it.
No its not, because pvp in games like WoW and Daoc are more like a sport. you don't lose anything at all. in pvp with full loot, you have the chance you lose your equipment if you attack somebody because you can lose. people rather not take the risk of losing the stuff and just gank lower levels because they aren't that risky. saying its 50/50 is pure ignorance. you might see that in games like WoW and Daoc, but definitly not in player looting games. there its 80/20, with the majority being ganking lower level player. its not generalization, its the truth. EA didn't change the game pvp wise because they want to ruin the game, they did it because pkers actually keep ruining the fun of lower level players. and thats why there are so little pvp games with player loot around.
Its people like you who simply cant take getting ganked. Youve lost the spirit of gaming, and I feel sorry for you. I dont know what happened to you, but its a sad lot. Okay, so they killed you...get over it. There are PLENTY of fair fights out there that ive had in AC, DAOC, and WoW. And Im NOT going to sacrifice it because some player like you cant take seeing his character killed by a high level. Toughen up - alright your character died. Big deal.
You need to buy yourself some glasses. like I said in previous posts, I don't mind pvp ganking in the games you mentioned because they DON'T have playerlooting. I said, and this time read carefully, that I dislike ganking in game that has heavy consequences such as player looting. get it? alright your character died. big deal, thats how I feel exactly. alright, your character died and lost all the stuff you worked hard for. suddenly it does gets annoying when your character dies.
Oh so now its about the looting.
Sherlock, this entire topic is about player looting....
If your not allowed to loot, where the hell is the adrenaline? Wheres the excitement? Knowing that if you kill someone you may just get a great item. You forget that it works both ways, and thats what makes the game so exicting.
and thats why I say you are not a true pvp player. you first need all kinds of consequences in pvp before you feel the adrenaline and excitement. you don't focus on the fun of actually pvping, you only do it for the reward. keep in mind that it does NOT work both ways, because 9 out of 10 times your enemy is level 90, and you are level 50. or the other way around, depends if your a true pvp player or not. (change levels with skills if you play skill based games)
I KNOW that you dont mind ganking without playlooting/heacy consequences becuase I KNOW you like the games that are utopias. And who said you lost ALL your stuff? I dont know any game except one or two than did that or plan on doing that. On DT on AC (Probably the best gaming expierience Ive ever had - ask anyone) even there wasnt full looting in that game and its considered the most brutal FFA PvP server in the world. And it didnt get annoying when my char died back then, cause I got used to it. I'd say to myself "Okay man, I gotta toughen up - ok, I died. I'll get even better items next time and work harder". Are you afraid to do that?
yeah man, I fully agree with you. you have to toughen up for a G A M E
. let me geuss, you play while having the "Eye of the tiger" music in the background. you didn't find it annoying, congratulations. enjoy it while it last, because most players DO find it annoying.
PvP gives a higher dynamic to the game and is the true nature of multiplayer. It gives you tactics, it forces you to group up for defense and offense, and it gives you a thrill that a computer cant give you. It forces you to move and travel in directions that are not normally thought of in the game. It makes the game an adventure. I'll definitly trade that for a couple bad kills by a high level once in awhile.
Please speak for yourself.
No, I'll speak for the majority.
yes, we noticed that. thats why WoW, a PVE game has over 6.5 million subscribers were AC:DT has about 2000 players and EVE about 120k. get your facts right.
You enjoy farming and raiding over and over? You enjoy getting killed and killing with no consequences? Fine go ahead, live in your utopia, but then dont cry that the game gets boring. Because it does....most people eventually figure out theres more to gaming than clicking on fireball shooting down a raid boss over and over.
yeah, for example I can go pvp in the game which is unbalanced and most of the time leads to frustration, or I can load up Battlefield 2 or Counterstrike and actually have fair fights.
You cant have fair fights in them either, cause no matter what someone is gonna attack you first and someone is gonna have a better weapon. There is no such thing as a fair fight. If your looking for a fair fight then MMO's certainly arent it. You do it not for the fair fight, but for the multiplayer aspect of it. Your answer means nothing
.
Wow, talk aboug beint clueless. you can have fair fights, because both you and your opponent have the same chance to get the good weapons. there are fair fights, you need to look up the word "fair" in the dictionary. if you do it for the multiplayer aspect, then you might as well play battlefield,because that is also mutliplayer. its your answer that means nothing
By my book, fizzle is 100% correct. PvP without conseuqences is not really PvP, its a utopia. And we all know a utopia gets boring real fast.
pvp stands for player vs player. no mention of consequences or item looting. its a FACT pvp without consequences is still pvp.
Okay fine, get all technical on me. You know what I mean. I hope.
yeah, you mix up your fairy tales with reality.
btw, I already wear glasses
How can you lose a war against Carebears.
Carebears don't fight. You must have shot yourself.
The grim future will ONLY be confirmed when Darkfall dies. (note to trolls: it's not dead yet,nor was it ever dead.) And it's still in progress with an ambitious beta of late 2006,so I keep 'hope' for a full-on PvP experience.
And if not,oh well there are decent PvP/PvE games coming out anyway. WAR. Age of Conan. Fallen Earth. POTBS. Aion.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
Why on earth would I care if a guy thinks I'm cool when his 'coolness' is about beating up people in a computer game and taking their stuff and his idea of 'tough' has to do with sitting around watching some pixels get beaten up? Yeah, you and your "I'm so cool and tough, my computer game character beat that computer game character up!" buddies can pat each other on the back and tell each other how much backbone you have, but you're not exactly convincing anyone to change their mind.
This whole spiel is just absurd, because it ignores the fact that the OP, this thread, and indeed 'hardcore' PVPers in general say that a game is not real unless you can take people's stuff. In most games, it takes longer than 15 minutes to create a new set of gear (often its hours) and a PVP fight lasts less than 5 minutes. Why would I want to keep going and getting replacement gear every time I lose a fight, I'd be spending less time on the enjoyable part of the game than on boring stuff?
In an FPS, how long does it take on average to recover from being killed? In my experience, you spend maybe a minute running somewhere to grab a gun and hop back into the fray. My spirit is busy playing games for fun instead of trying to be 'cool' or 'tough'. And laughing at the whole idea of some basement-dwelling geek looking for a virtual victim complaining that people who don't share his entertainment preferences are weak or 'pampered'.
I'm sure he will now flame you as being a whiner and a carebear. Think of it as a badge of honor!
C
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Steelarm, seriously, learn the diffrence between a fact and your opinion.
"and PvP without any consequences does get boring. Its a fact."
learn what the word fact actually means before you type a reply.
also, I recommend you re-read the last reply you just wrote, as its simply rediculous, and your making a fool out of yourself.
Cheesack, that is by far some of the most well written comments i've seen in a while on this site. I do not know where you gain all this patience you seem to have. I commend you for it though. Because I gave up on Steel's post quite a while ago. It's hard to convey thoughts and opinions to someone, that doesn't recognize any except his own. Well done, Cheesack. Well done.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
No wonder why no one speaks out theyre opinions on PvP anymore. Again, you assume that I am some type of monster because I try to convey my ideas to you. You can treat me like I am crazy and that I dont listen, but I do. All of my past posts with the exception of this last one have included politeness, opinions and facts, acknowledgements of someone else's post, and an argument. There is nothing wrong in trying to tell you my opinion. But to you apparently there is, because I dont agree with you.
I acknowledge that you dont like losing your stuff when you die and that you may not like it, that you think its tough or that its bad or whatever. I know that, its the same song that has been sung. I know you cant stand some of the bullies that are online.
Treating me like I am some type of monster isnt helping your argument. No wonder why no one speaks out on these topics anymore, cause God forbid I disagree with you on hardcore PvP I may just be tooooo rough for you and tooooo mean. Since I like hardcore PvP I'm a mean person that sits in my basement, right? I sit in my basement all day with my mother and Im some geek with glasses, like Pan states, like all the other people who like a bit more freedom in their games to do what they want.
You know what really entertained me? When you said "Beautiful post" to Pan's post, when his post contained around a paragraph of flames. When I get my post in, I get berated for 5 words of flames that werent even intended to hurt him. It just amazes me at the blatant....prejudice. Yes, probably the name for whats going on here. You automatically assume that I am a mean person thats a geek that sits in his basement that wears glasses, that thinks "people are weak and have no backbone" because I like PvP. Me and the countless other people who are afraid to speak on here.
Guess what? Thats a form of prejudice.
I'm not being the closeminded one, you are. Instead of trying to acknowledge what I'm saying or at least respect my opinion youve made me the bad guy on here which is a common tactic on these forums with these types of arguments. You havent acknowledged anything that Ive posted, and yet berated me, told me "I'm a flamer" when I got flamed alot more by Pan, told me I'm close minded, and god knows what else. I suggest you look over what you have posted and maybe come up with a nicer response that maybe acknowledges what I said next time.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Hi,
so I'm curious - what is a non-carebear mmorpg nowadays?
I played EQ1 a while, on and off, since pre-POP but slowly it became easier and easier and I still enjoy it but it maybe compromised too much. I tried EQ2, looks good and is fun, but kinda dull in the end, too linear, too user-friendly - it just wants to be liked! Tried WOW, again, nice looking but far too linear, too much like a train track without enough opportunity to go it alone. Tried Final Fantasy - got bored, Tried A Tale in the Desert - very good but I'm not a crafter, SWG - nice idea but what happened to the execution? Tried OU, but got bored of the interface. Tried Dungeon Siege - mmorpg for arcade-heads. (EDIT: Also played Anarchy Online, had fun but couldn't quite discover the point on an ongoing basis.)
So I tried a few, and maybe a few more; some I spent a long time on, some not alot.
But the trend seems to be going towards easy gameplay, nice graphics, unchallenging story line. I was considering Eve, but got a little retro instead and currently enjoying Shadowbane.
So you guys who know, tell me, what should I be playing right now? What's challenging? Interesting? NON- Carebear (I don't need to be patronised by my games).
Answers gratefully accepted.
The only MMO I've ever seen with a remotely intresting PvP is Planetside.
When I play RPG games PvP isn't what I seek, RPG is. I like it that I don't have to RPG alone and can share that gametype with other friends who like to RPG.
I also like to PvP. My current top PvP games are Hidden and Dangerous 2, Warhammer 40K and War World.
I used to enjoy playing Diablo 2 on Hardcore mode, and all the PvP games I play have one life only. Death penalties is not something that overly upsets me. I do however like to have already full explored the game before I go down that path. For me, It's a way of gaining extra replayability by increasing the difficulty level not enhancing the original content in some way.
My first love in multiplayer games is co-operative play. It's the equaliser. In this way you can play with friends of all levels of gaming skill and not find it boring. I find for PvP to be rewarding you must stream yourself with players of similar aptitude and capability or either own everything with boring predictability or constantly instagib without knowing why.
PVP Hardcore players? Yes I should imagine the future is quite grim for MMO's. The unfortunate facts of life is that not enough people enjoy that type of gameplay to warrant making it.