If you pack the game with skills I can garuntee everyone will be different. AC was a great mix of this and it worked out perfectly, not one person was the same. Almost every skill based game we know that came out worked well. EVE did, Ryzom did, AC did. The biggest flop was of course SWG, but even people now say that the Pre-CU system works well.
In these new WOW-cousin games once you choose your class everyone is the same. Its not fun. You may have a specialization, but it really doesnt matter. How many people are fury warriors or ice mages in WoW? You see my point. In a class when you group with people your forced into a role - click and heal, click and nuke, stand there and tank - and thats it. You cant fit me into a specific role due to my playstyle cause what if my playstyle wants to use a skill from a different class? You cant *group* a bunch of people into one category, because every person is different. We are all made differently. There are many people out there who want to tank and at the same time cast spells. There are people out there who want to stealth and at the same time shoot a bow. Or stealth and cast magic. Not not alot of magic - maybe just one or two spells.
Lets say we use an AC system - 75% skills and 25% levels. Your skills would level up if you use them, and at the same time theres a main expierience bar that goes up. Once you level up, you gain bonus skill points to distribute wherever you wish and your core attributes raise a little. Theres a very high cap on skills. Plus, to improve balancing, there only a set amount of skill points a person can distribute. That system would rock, and I would personally keep track of that game from the start.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 If you pack the game with skills I can garuntee everyone will be different. AC was a great mix of this and it worked out perfectly, not one person was the same. Almost every skill based game we know that came out worked well. EVE did, Ryzom did, AC did. The biggest flop was of course SWG, but even people now say that the Pre-CU system works well. In these new WOW-cousin games once you choose your class everyone is the same. Its not fun. You may have a specialization, but it really doesnt matter. How many people are fury warriors or ice mages in WoW? You see my point. In a class when you group with people your forced into a role - click and heal, click and nuke, stand there and tank - and thats it. You cant fit me into a specific role due to my playstyle cause what if my playstyle wants to use a skill from a different class? You cant *group* a bunch of people into one category, because every person is different. We are all made differently. There are many people out there who want to tank and at the same time cast spells. There are people out there who want to stealth and at the same time shoot a bow. Or stealth and cast magic. Not not alot of magic - maybe just one or two spells. Lets say we use an AC system - 75% skills and 25% levels. Your skills would level up if you use them, and at the same time theres a main expierience bar that goes up. Once you level up, you gain bonus skill points to distribute wherever you wish and your core attributes raise a little. Theres a very high cap on skills. Plus, to improve balancing, there only a set amount of skill points a person can distribute. That system would rock, and I would personally keep track of that game from the start.
I will admit I enjoyed Ultima Online & Star Wars Galaxies, both good examples of a skill based MMORPG.
I remember in SWG I was a BH with a twist. If the skills aren't diverse enough, then people will all start to train in the same skills. In SWG I was a master dancer and rifleman. How uncommon is that.
I would like to see a hybred skill/class based advancement scheme...mostly skills but within a class/career framework that would give you some latitude in terms of skill selection. So I'm thinking like 85% skills and 15% class...err whatever works best for everyone.
Skill advancement should come in 3-4 different ways...
1) Skills training over time...a la EVE Online (hehe, sleep learning)
2) Skills advancement by practice...a la Project Entropia (a steady stream of little "dings")
3) Skills training by seeking out a master (larger "ding" chunks)
4) Skills advancement by finding books/manuals (smaller "ding" chunks)
Class advancement should come in a couple different ways...
1) Missions
2) Level in core skills (i.e. engineering for engineers, weapons handling for soldiers, etc.)
In Project Entropia you can unlock "secret" skills if you have the prerequisites, which I always thought was kinda cool.
Originally posted by poopypants I would like to see a hybred skill/class based advancement scheme...mostly skills but within a class/career framework that would give you some latitude in terms of skill selection. So I'm thinking like 85% skills and 15% class...err whatever works best for everyone.
Skill advancement should come in 3-4 different ways...
1) Skills training over time...a la EVE Online (hehe, sleep learning)
2) Skills advancement by practice...a la Project Entropia (a steady stream of little "dings")
3) Skills training by seeking out a master (larger "ding" chunks)
4) Skills advancement by finding books/manuals (smaller "ding" chunks)
Class advancement should come in a couple different ways...
1) Missions
2) Level in core skills (i.e. engineering for engineers, weapons handling for soldiers, etc.)
In Project Entropia you can unlock "secret" skills if you have the prerequisites, which I always thought was kinda cool.
Having something that is a hybrid of skills/classes really cant be made, because a "class" and "skills" are really one in the same. The class serves to restrict you to a set of skills in which you cannot gain skills from another other section. This system that you presented, while ideal for you, will never happen, because it cant. If you allow skills from a totally different type of proffession for your character, then whats the point of having classes?
If you dont, then this isnt really a skill based game. It is simply a class based game with skill advancement.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
on a sidenote, just because a game is level based does not mean there is no room for customization.
just take a look at Ragnarok Online, fully level based & class based., but no other mmo, not even a skill based mmo, can get close to the amout of customization in RO
Originally posted by Gameloading many game companies pick a class/level system over a skill system because its much more easy to balance, and its a lot more newbie friendly.
Yes cause level-based MMO's are a shining example of balance
For what ever reason you love or hate EVE for I do think they hit the right idea on how skills should effect your playing. No classes all skill based. Yes I can have the skills to be a Tank and a Healer, but unless I equip "healer" items I can only do minor Healing as long as my target and my self stays still and I heal you very slowly. Now with the different "healer" items I'd get bonuses to the amount I heal you, How much energy it takes, How fast I heal you and can I do it from range. Thats how EVE skill system works. Your skills allow you to use equipment which in various combinations allows you to define exactly what you can do.
Now I'm not a big fan of the You get XP for your skills based on what you do. Why? because you have people doing up macros to get thier skills up. Seen it in RF online where some one just sits out side a town casting "random boost #1" just so that they can get thier skills up or my favorite, go to the lowest group of guys that give you a skill raise and just aggro a bunch and let them hit you to raise your shield skill up. EVE originally had that style too though it was exploited left and right. Player X goes out and shoots Roid Y for 4 hours to get his gunnery skill up, or go out with a friend and shoot him while he heals go to bed wake up and skills are higher.
Asheron's Call. There are no classes in AC. Players sort of created their own characters based on the skills. It is all completly skill based, you gain xp, and put xp into whatever skill you want better. I think this is the only game that did this right, or at least what I have witnessed.
I enjoy skill based bescause sometimes i like to play chars that are hard to play. most people try to find the best template for a char and just always use that, I on the otherhand just like to play around with different templates and pick different skills for my chars. AC = best skill based game out there. AC = best game out there (my opinion).
Current: Puzzle Pirates Waiting: SWTOR,Aion, CO Played: AC, WoW, SB, EVE
Well i think matrix online even if dont like the rest (to repetitive) has the perfect skill system -no classes just skill trees and a skill point cap with the higher the skill the more points it cots you just have depending on your lvl an amount of skill points and can activate/deactivate on special stations your skills so if you are unhappy with your current skills you go to this station unload them and activate other one as far as i can remember there were like 3 skilltrees one "mage-style" diviing in healing / dmg ohne meele dividing in tank / rouge like skills and the third one was range combat
so you could mix either the skils up and it would cost so much you wouldnt reach the top skills in the tree and be a hybrid or you could go for one skilltree and play like with a class
this way you could do watever you wanted without playing multiple characters
I agree 100% I too am sick to death of level based game because they make no damn sense. Look at it this way if I go golfing and its a par 3 I'm going to try to hit a hole in 1 reguardless of my skill level.
Eventhough it's old, Asheron's Call gives you complete freedom with your character.... no classes... you earn XP and you are allowed to spend it however you see fit.. there are the following attributes (Strength, Endurance, Quickness, Coordination, Focus, Self, Health, Stamina, Mana) and each play a part in the following skills ( Melee skills (sword, dagger, axe, spear, unarmed combat, etc), missile skills (bow, crossbow, atlatl, slingshot, etc), magic casting skills (war magic, life magic, item magic, creature magic), or additional skills like running, jumping, healing, mana conversion, armor tinkering, item tinkering, weapon tinkering, lockpick, leadership, loyalty, assessment, arcanse lore, etc.
Anyways, the point being you can make you mage a tank... or a pure caster.. .its totally up to the user and what they decide to allocate points too... but you are not stuck with any skillset, you can perform unspec/spec quests to untrain and retrain skills and attribs. Here is an example of a character attribute/skills screen...
Also, if you've never seen the combat in Asheron's Call... it factors in player skill more than gear. Someone shoots a war magic bolt... or shoot arrows at you... you can actually dodge the attacks by jumping behind a tree, rock, or other obstacle.
Yeah AC was the bomb. Like I said it was genius...you had player skill factored in with skill based leveling system. You couldnt beat it. If they made a game like AC today I would definitly keep it on my buy list. That game wasujust too much fun...we were really spoiled. I dont know if we'll see another game like that again.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
IMO Eve has the perfect skill system minus the learning skills.
Spending weeks learning how to learn sucks.
You don't have to get them but some people (like me) compulsively have to take the most efficient route possible to their goals and that means learning how to learn.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Yes, the title says it all. Ive been browsing the list of games in development, and I came across another game which looked promising - Gods and Heroes, hoping that maybe, just maybe, they wouldnt have classes. Wrong. I was wondering what was one of the biggest problems in MMO's today, what makes me shake my head looking at the "released games" list saying that almost every game on there is crap (with the exception of a few goodies - EVE for example). However, EVE is a unique game. EVE has a steep learning curve, and takes a long time to advance in that game. As we all probably know one of the biggest problems in games is the level grind. Grinding from one level to another is not fun. It restricts you in so many things that you really have a linear path. You cant PvP properly because even someone who is 3 or 4 levels higher than you has a rather large advantage. You go to instance to instance, area to area seeking to get that next level to proceed to endgame. That is why we need to abolish classes. Make it 100% skill based. I am and I'm sure many people are sick and tired of playing an "archtype" of having a specific role that chains them to a job they have to do. Your skills are now limited to your job. At every game I see, I see the exact same classes. You have your: Offensive melee (I have all these cool moves then...oops, I die, i have no armor) Defensive melee (tank) (Takes an hour to kill something solo) Offensive caster (nuke, nuke nuke...see the same graphic x1000 times) Defensive caster/healer (click on name, heal, repeat) stealth (I go invisible and I cut things up but everything else sucks) ranged (click, shoot, click, shoot) And thats it! Almost every game has the same thing. And Im sick of it. You cant customize your character to how you like to play the most. Im sure all of you would like to play to how you like it. Classes gives you a job, and makes alot of skills unaccessable to you. Some parts of the game you never see because of this restriction. Take WoW, for example. Depending on how much time you have, you may get to endgame in 1 or 2 or 3 characters. But you still havent seen the other half of the game. And Im sure no one wants to make multiple characters and go through the hassle of building them up all over again. Wouldnt it be nice for your character to be you? By taking away classes and making it skill based, you can do what you want. You and be what you want. PvE wont be so much of a grind because you simply play how you want your skills to advance. PvP is on more even ground and less developed characters can still have a chance to take on the big boys. Plus you dont have the silly, ridiculous "rock paper scissor" PvP theme that just ruins alot of the fun when fighting. (warrior beats rogue, rogue beats mage, mage beats warrior). I should be able to enter a fight and NOT say "well hes a mage and I'm a warrior, I'm going down." I know Mythic has taken a step in the right direction, but they still have the classes. The change they made was to copy WoW in a sense and make multiple talent trees. We know Darkfall is skillbased and the gamers jump for joy, but there is that chance that its vaporware. I really am hoping that some company hears our plea and makes a good, solid MMO thats skill based. I will jump for the chance to play it. I dont want to play a role, or play a job. I want to play me. I know Ive seen posts like this before but...even so, I need to vent Thoughts, comments, please keep the flaming down to a minimum, please
Skill based games have a lot of disadvantages aswell
Always a steep learning curve. Because of the need to get by the first part of the game certain combo's of skills to train or more or less obligated make skill based games by standard really hard to get into and ceertainly not for the beginning mmorpg player
HArd to indentify to uses of a char. It's just which skill they trained you don't see that somebody has healer skills which in a class based system is easy
HArd to get good group interaction. Sins everybody can have any skill
Personally i rather have a mix of class and skill based character development. For group play they rather simple setup for group play should remain there.
The problem with skill based games is that they tend to make people develop themself in the classes we hate just because that way you can have a group setup that works (puller,tank,healer dmg dealer sounds familair eh ). In the end either everybody going to be the same or if there are erstrictions to it develop into a role that resembles a classes. Just look at Eve. most people are either a miner, or a faction grinder or a PvPer some rare occasion you see a hauler but it just shows we develop into the classes by the what we like . So although skill based looks great on payer in reality it doesn't really work
Skill based games have a lot of disadvantages aswell
Always a steep learning curve. Because of the need to get by the first part of the game certain combo's of skills to train or more or less obligated make skill based games by standard really hard to get into and ceertainly not for the beginning mmorpg player
HArd to indentify to uses of a char. It's just which skill they trained you don't see that somebody has healer skills which in a class based system is easy
That's a bad thing how?
HArd to get good group interaction. Sins everybody can have any skill
ZOMG no holy trinity what will we do??
Personally i rather have a mix of class and skill based character development. For group play they rather simple setup for group play should remain there.
The problem with skill based games is that they tend to make people develop themself in the classes we hate just because that way you can have a group setup that works (puller,tank,healer dmg dealer sounds familair eh ). In the end either everybody going to be the same or if there are erstrictions to it develop into a role that resembles a classes. Just look at Eve. most people are either a miner, or a faction grinder or a PvPer some rare occasion you see a hauler but it just shows we develop into the classes by the what we like . So although skill based looks great on payer in reality it doesn't really work
Players in EVE can change classes at the drop of a hat. Everyone eventually fills out their character with some skills in all areas but they specialize in what they enjoy the most, nothing wrong with that. At least they are not locked in to one category once they make thier character.
Eve is NOT a good skills based game at all not even close.When I shoot a laser my skills in lasers should go up. Using a training system that requires time is not what I would call a good skills based system. Nothing is as open ended as people think. You are still stuck to race roles and a linear progression with your skills in eve.The wait for a decent skills based game continues.
EVE doesn't work that way, nor will it everv work that way.
In EVE you are never assigned a role, you create your own destiny, and your only limits are your imagination.
Skills have their limitations and time constraints, and that's why you specialize and train skills that will cut this training time. This is where skill comes to play and where the odds can be evened, when a few month old specialized character can beat a year old jack of all trades character in his specialized field.
Originally posted by holythough Skill based games have a lot of disadvantages aswell
Always a steep learning curve. Because of the need to get by the first part of the game certain combo's of skills to train or more or less obligated make skill based games by standard really hard to get into and ceertainly not for the beginning mmorpg player HArd to indentify to uses of a char. It's just which skill they trained you don't see that somebody has healer skills which in a class based system is easy HArd to get good group interaction. Sins everybody can have any skill Personally i rather have a mix of class and skill based character development. For group play they rather simple setup for group play should remain there. The problem with skill based games is that they tend to make people develop themself in the classes we hate just because that way you can have a group setup that works (puller,tank,healer dmg dealer sounds familair eh ). In the end either everybody going to be the same or if there are erstrictions to it develop into a role that resembles a classes. Just look at Eve. most people are either a miner, or a faction grinder or a PvPer some rare occasion you see a hauler but it just shows we develop into the classes by the what we like . So although skill based looks great on payer in reality it doesn't really work
1. Is it really a steep learning curve? If you think about it, all your giving is players a chance to mold their character to theyre liking. Instead of having a job, you can do whatever you want. Because of this, in my opinion, they are easy to get into.
2. Is there a problem in ID'ing the character? Thats half the fun of getting to know who can do what.
3. Thats just wrong. You dont need the developers to "encourage group interaction" for you; this is an MMO, and people come there to play multiplayer, regardless if they are an archtype or not. Either way, your going to group up cause its fun.
And I know plenty of games in which they do not develop themselves into classes - sure your going to get templates, but people in general dont want to play classes because they find it boring. Since there arent any classes in that game, we cant really ID ourselves as being in a "class" anyway. Just my 2cents.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Bladin *shrug* classes and skills to me are the same with the very end result. The process to get there is different, but its basically the same overall.
One thing i do have to say, is with classes, devs are allowed MUCH more freedom in design inbetween classes then the skills in a skill based system.
This topic is as old as time, and just for the record.
Class based does not equal a grind. And skill based does not mean there won't be a grind. That's simply a games features and not the systems features.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Grind for levels, grind for skills. IF skill systems are too open to allow "unique/original" designs, you still end up with cookie cutters as it is too easy to gimp yourself. Then there is the problems of the tank-mage. Skill sysmte might become vogue if people like the OP have their way, but eventually they will come to bitch out that type of system too.
Originally posted by Kibs Ryzom is skill based, you can learn everything if you spend long enough, but with over 11,000 total skill levels noone ever has. Give the free trial a go at ryzom.com
Ok sorry... but this is a HUGE pet peave of mine!
RYZOM IS NOT SKILL BASED!!!
It is a LEVEL based system in which you acquire skill points as you level. The skills are dependant upon your LEVEL. Your ability to affect the environment and players around you is ENTIRELY dependant upon your level as a result. Furthermore PVP combat between players of different level is extremely unbalanced, just like in any other LEVEL based system.
UO, RV and EVE are the onlly SKILL BASED games I am aware of. Darkfall has plans to be SKILL BASED. In UO a relative "newbie" to the game could stand up and hold their own in a PVP fight or be useful in a group of their friends because there was no LEVEL system. Same goes for EVE. A relative newbiie to the game can be useful within 6 hours if helped out with what skills to learn to contribute to a battle.
SWG used to be skill based (pre-CU) with an XP system for acquiring skills (but not levels). That's no longer the case now, however. They converted it to a class/level system.
Ryzom is a hybrid. It's not class based but it IS level based. It's LEVEL/SKILL based as opposed to purely skill based. It IS a good game, don't get me wrong. But please folks... stop calling it a skill based game. It has skills but it's a LEVEL based game with a skill system instead of classes.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Yes, the title says it all. Ive been browsing the list of games in development, and I came across another game which looked promising - Gods and Heroes, hoping that maybe, just maybe, they wouldnt have classes. Wrong. I was wondering what was one of the biggest problems in MMO's today, what makes me shake my head looking at the "released games" list saying that almost every game on there is crap (with the exception of a few goodies - EVE for example). However, EVE is a unique game. EVE has a steep learning curve, and takes a long time to advance in that game. As we all probably know one of the biggest problems in games is the level grind. Grinding from one level to another is not fun. It restricts you in so many things that you really have a linear path. You cant PvP properly because even someone who is 3 or 4 levels higher than you has a rather large advantage. You go to instance to instance, area to area seeking to get that next level to proceed to endgame. That is why we need to abolish classes. Make it 100% skill based. I am and I'm sure many people are sick and tired of playing an "archtype" of having a specific role that chains them to a job they have to do. Your skills are now limited to your job. At every game I see, I see the exact same classes. You have your: Offensive melee (I have all these cool moves then...oops, I die, i have no armor) Defensive melee (tank) (Takes an hour to kill something solo) Offensive caster (nuke, nuke nuke...see the same graphic x1000 times) Defensive caster/healer (click on name, heal, repeat) stealth (I go invisible and I cut things up but everything else sucks) ranged (click, shoot, click, shoot) And thats it! Almost every game has the same thing. And Im sick of it. You cant customize your character to how you like to play the most. Im sure all of you would like to play to how you like it. Classes gives you a job, and makes alot of skills unaccessable to you. Some parts of the game you never see because of this restriction. Take WoW, for example. Depending on how much time you have, you may get to endgame in 1 or 2 or 3 characters. But you still havent seen the other half of the game. And Im sure no one wants to make multiple characters and go through the hassle of building them up all over again. Wouldnt it be nice for your character to be you? By taking away classes and making it skill based, you can do what you want. You and be what you want. PvE wont be so much of a grind because you simply play how you want your skills to advance. PvP is on more even ground and less developed characters can still have a chance to take on the big boys. Plus you dont have the silly, ridiculous "rock paper scissor" PvP theme that just ruins alot of the fun when fighting. (warrior beats rogue, rogue beats mage, mage beats warrior). I should be able to enter a fight and NOT say "well hes a mage and I'm a warrior, I'm going down." I know Mythic has taken a step in the right direction, but they still have the classes. The change they made was to copy WoW in a sense and make multiple talent trees. We know Darkfall is skillbased and the gamers jump for joy, but there is that chance that its vaporware. I really am hoping that some company hears our plea and makes a good, solid MMO thats skill based. I will jump for the chance to play it. I dont want to play a role, or play a job. I want to play me. I know Ive seen posts like this before but...even so, I need to vent Thoughts, comments, please keep the flaming down to a minimum, please
there was a game listed on here called Divergence that was boasting something like 70+ combination professions and all skill based.
mmorpg.com removed the listing today and flamed the makers on the front page, which i find pretty darn unprofessional if you ask me.
anways their website is at http://www.divergence-online.com and i hear they're taking open suggestion on how to build the game from players. just as a tip i wouldn't sign up and list my suggestion as don't go to mmorpg.com lol
Comments
If you pack the game with skills I can garuntee everyone will be different. AC was a great mix of this and it worked out perfectly, not one person was the same. Almost every skill based game we know that came out worked well. EVE did, Ryzom did, AC did. The biggest flop was of course SWG, but even people now say that the Pre-CU system works well.
In these new WOW-cousin games once you choose your class everyone is the same. Its not fun. You may have a specialization, but it really doesnt matter. How many people are fury warriors or ice mages in WoW? You see my point. In a class when you group with people your forced into a role - click and heal, click and nuke, stand there and tank - and thats it. You cant fit me into a specific role due to my playstyle cause what if my playstyle wants to use a skill from a different class? You cant *group* a bunch of people into one category, because every person is different. We are all made differently. There are many people out there who want to tank and at the same time cast spells. There are people out there who want to stealth and at the same time shoot a bow. Or stealth and cast magic. Not not alot of magic - maybe just one or two spells.
Lets say we use an AC system - 75% skills and 25% levels. Your skills would level up if you use them, and at the same time theres a main expierience bar that goes up. Once you level up, you gain bonus skill points to distribute wherever you wish and your core attributes raise a little. Theres a very high cap on skills. Plus, to improve balancing, there only a set amount of skill points a person can distribute. That system would rock, and I would personally keep track of that game from the start.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
I will admit I enjoyed Ultima Online & Star Wars Galaxies, both good examples of a skill based MMORPG.
I remember in SWG I was a BH with a twist. If the skills aren't diverse enough, then people will all start to train in the same skills. In SWG I was a master dancer and rifleman. How uncommon is that.
Skill advancement should come in 3-4 different ways...
1) Skills training over time...a la EVE Online (hehe, sleep learning)
2) Skills advancement by practice...a la Project Entropia (a steady stream of little "dings")
3) Skills training by seeking out a master (larger "ding" chunks)
4) Skills advancement by finding books/manuals (smaller "ding" chunks)
Class advancement should come in a couple different ways...
1) Missions
2) Level in core skills (i.e. engineering for engineers, weapons handling for soldiers, etc.)
In Project Entropia you can unlock "secret" skills if you have the prerequisites, which I always thought was kinda cool.
Having something that is a hybrid of skills/classes really cant be made, because a "class" and "skills" are really one in the same. The class serves to restrict you to a set of skills in which you cannot gain skills from another other section. This system that you presented, while ideal for you, will never happen, because it cant. If you allow skills from a totally different type of proffession for your character, then whats the point of having classes?
If you dont, then this isnt really a skill based game. It is simply a class based game with skill advancement.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
just take a look at Ragnarok Online, fully level based & class based., but no other mmo, not even a skill based mmo, can get close to the amout of customization in RO
I like both mechanics. Not much more to say than that.
For what ever reason you love or hate EVE for I do think they hit the right idea on how skills should effect your playing. No classes all skill based. Yes I can have the skills to be a Tank and a Healer, but unless I equip "healer" items I can only do minor Healing as long as my target and my self stays still and I heal you very slowly. Now with the different "healer" items I'd get bonuses to the amount I heal you, How much energy it takes, How fast I heal you and can I do it from range. Thats how EVE skill system works. Your skills allow you to use equipment which in various combinations allows you to define exactly what you can do.
Now I'm not a big fan of the You get XP for your skills based on what you do. Why? because you have people doing up macros to get thier skills up. Seen it in RF online where some one just sits out side a town casting "random boost #1" just so that they can get thier skills up or my favorite, go to the lowest group of guys that give you a skill raise and just aggro a bunch and let them hit you to raise your shield skill up. EVE originally had that style too though it was exploited left and right. Player X goes out and shoots Roid Y for 4 hours to get his gunnery skill up, or go out with a friend and shoot him while he heals go to bed wake up and skills are higher.
Asheron's Call. There are no classes in AC. Players sort of created their own characters based on the skills. It is all completly skill based, you gain xp, and put xp into whatever skill you want better. I think this is the only game that did this right, or at least what I have witnessed.
I enjoy skill based bescause sometimes i like to play chars that are hard to play. most people try to find the best template for a char and just always use that, I on the otherhand just like to play around with different templates and pick different skills for my chars. AC = best skill based game out there. AC = best game out there (my opinion).
Current: Puzzle Pirates
Waiting: SWTOR,Aion, CO
Played: AC, WoW, SB, EVE
has the perfect skill system -no classes just skill trees and a skill point cap with the higher the skill the more points it cots
you just have depending on your lvl an amount of skill points and can activate/deactivate
on special stations your skills so if you are unhappy with your current skills you go to this station
unload them and activate other one
as far as i can remember there were like 3 skilltrees one "mage-style" diviing in healing / dmg ohne meele dividing
in tank / rouge like skills and the third one was range combat
so you could mix either the skils up and it would cost so much you wouldnt reach the top skills in the tree
and be a hybrid or you could go for one skilltree and play like with a class
this way you could do watever you wanted without playing multiple characters
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I agree 100% I too am sick to death of level based game because they make no damn sense. Look at it this way if I go golfing and its a par 3 I'm going to try to hit a hole in 1 reguardless of my skill level.
Anyways, the point being you can make you mage a tank... or a pure caster.. .its totally up to the user and what they decide to allocate points too... but you are not stuck with any skillset, you can perform unspec/spec quests to untrain and retrain skills and attribs. Here is an example of a character attribute/skills screen...
http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olivertempqh4.png
http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olivertempqh4.png
Also, if you've never seen the combat in Asheron's Call... it factors in player skill more than gear. Someone shoots a war magic bolt... or shoot arrows at you... you can actually dodge the attacks by jumping behind a tree, rock, or other obstacle.
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Yeah AC was the bomb. Like I said it was genius...you had player skill factored in with skill based leveling system. You couldnt beat it. If they made a game like AC today I would definitly keep it on my buy list. That game wasujust too much fun...we were really spoiled. I dont know if we'll see another game like that again.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Spending weeks learning how to learn sucks.
You don't have to get them but some people (like me) compulsively have to take the most efficient route possible to their goals and that means learning how to learn.
Skill based games have a lot of disadvantages aswell
Personally i rather have a mix of class and skill based character development. For group play they rather simple setup for group play should remain there.
The problem with skill based games is that they tend to make people develop themself in the classes we hate just because that way you can have a group setup that works (puller,tank,healer dmg dealer sounds familair eh
). In the end either everybody going to be the same or if there are erstrictions to it develop into a role that resembles a classes. Just look at Eve. most people are either a miner, or a faction grinder or a PvPer some rare occasion you see a hauler but it just shows we develop into the classes by the what we like . So although skill based looks great on payer in reality it doesn't really work
Skill based games have a lot of disadvantages aswell
That's a bad thing how?
ZOMG no holy trinity what will we do??
Personally i rather have a mix of class and skill based character development. For group play they rather simple setup for group play should remain there.
The problem with skill based games is that they tend to make people develop themself in the classes we hate just because that way you can have a group setup that works (puller,tank,healer dmg dealer sounds familair eh
). In the end either everybody going to be the same or if there are erstrictions to it develop into a role that resembles a classes. Just look at Eve. most people are either a miner, or a faction grinder or a PvPer some rare occasion you see a hauler but it just shows we develop into the classes by the what we like . So although skill based looks great on payer in reality it doesn't really work
Players in EVE can change classes at the drop of a hat. Everyone eventually fills out their character with some skills in all areas but they specialize in what they enjoy the most, nothing wrong with that. At least they are not locked in to one category once they make thier character.
EVE doesn't work that way, nor will it everv work that way.
In EVE you are never assigned a role, you create your own destiny, and your only limits are your imagination.
Skills have their limitations and time constraints, and that's why you specialize and train skills that will cut this training time. This is where skill comes to play and where the odds can be evened, when a few month old specialized character can beat a year old jack of all trades character in his specialized field.
1. Is it really a steep learning curve? If you think about it, all your giving is players a chance to mold their character to theyre liking. Instead of having a job, you can do whatever you want. Because of this, in my opinion, they are easy to get into.
2. Is there a problem in ID'ing the character? Thats half the fun of getting to know who can do what.
3. Thats just wrong. You dont need the developers to "encourage group interaction" for you; this is an MMO, and people come there to play multiplayer, regardless if they are an archtype or not. Either way, your going to group up cause its fun.
And I know plenty of games in which they do not develop themselves into classes - sure your going to get templates, but people in general dont want to play classes because they find it boring. Since there arent any classes in that game, we cant really ID ourselves as being in a "class" anyway. Just my 2cents.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
RYZOM IS NOT SKILL BASED!!!
It is a LEVEL based system in which you acquire skill points as you level. The skills are dependant upon your LEVEL. Your ability to affect the environment and players around you is ENTIRELY dependant upon your level as a result. Furthermore PVP combat between players of different level is extremely unbalanced, just like in any other LEVEL based system.
UO, RV and EVE are the onlly SKILL BASED games I am aware of. Darkfall has plans to be SKILL BASED. In UO a relative "newbie" to the game could stand up and hold their own in a PVP fight or be useful in a group of their friends because there was no LEVEL system. Same goes for EVE. A relative newbiie to the game can be useful within 6 hours if helped out with what skills to learn to contribute to a battle.
SWG used to be skill based (pre-CU) with an XP system for acquiring skills (but not levels). That's no longer the case now, however. They converted it to a class/level system.
Ryzom is a hybrid. It's not class based but it IS level based. It's LEVEL/SKILL based as opposed to purely skill based. It IS a good game, don't get me wrong. But please folks... stop calling it a skill based game. It has skills but it's a LEVEL based game with a skill system instead of classes.
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Maybe i play too many FPSes, but I think there are better ways to do RPG character systems.
there was a game listed on here called Divergence that was boasting something like 70+ combination professions and all skill based.
mmorpg.com removed the listing today and flamed the makers on the front page, which i find pretty darn unprofessional if you ask me.
anways their website is at http://www.divergence-online.com and i hear they're taking open suggestion on how to build the game from players. just as a tip i wouldn't sign up and list my suggestion as don't go to mmorpg.com lol