Turbine in trouble?

Lathial · August 2006

Could Turbine be in trouble? A few years back after AC1, turbine was the talk of the town- with AC2 on the horizon and LoTR and DDO licenced- it looked like Turbine was going to sweep the MMO market.

AC2 was really fun for about one month then the floor dropped out- class revamps hurt and content was lacking big time. On a side note- I loved the player music- sitting around playing music with friends was fun! The flute was great.

DDO was really fun for about two weeks then the trap door opened and everyone failed their reflex save.

Will LoTR be another dud? Turbine has always done something diferent then the mainstream but AC2 and DDO are complete failures. LoTR's has a lot of hype and new takes on the MMO world but im afraid it wont pan out. With such a limited scope of the licence and linear gameplay- ie. The Game ends- you win and save middle earth "try again?"

Im a bit worried for Turbine

Lath

Seeker728 · August 2006

This is just my humble opinion, based upon my hobby of MMOGs and Pen-n-Paper roleplaying for longer than I care to admit to. I personally think that Turbine may be hitting a wall. While they definitely shirk the molds that other MMOG embrace, their follow through leaves a lot to be desired. I gave DDO the 7 day trial period and was deeply disappointed by what I expierenced. I had hoped for a NWN style play only better and MMOG fueld. NWN persistent worlds have not only more content, they have more polish, more enjoyment, more quests, ect. The mechanics of DDO were good and had a ton of potential, but it's clearly still in beta. And anytime a game company decides to punish solo play styles, they set themselves up for failure. Yes yes, I know, MMOGs are "Massively Multiplayer"...and thus one should socialize and seek the company of others. My rebuttle to that is, I live in a city of 1.2 million people, 1,199,900 of them aren't friends of mine nor do I seek out their company, and of the remaining 100, 2 at the most share my interest in my online gaming hobby, and with different days off, the reality of adulthood stare you straight in the face. It's cool when you can find friends online to game with, but when you make it mandatory to group to do virtually anything, you effectively install a very low glass ceiling.

Personally, I had misgivings the moment they said they were going to use the world of Eberron for their setting instead of the Forgotten Realms. If they had merely taken all the material the FR and tried to reproduce it electronically, they would've had 10x the success that DDO in it's current incarnation has. Their reasons for choosing Eberron over FR, while I saw where they were coming from, were still a step in the wrong direction. I guess greed was the main motivator, all those royalties they'd have to cough up for the FR liscense and to the original authors of said material. Pity really, as a FR based campaign had all the material present for an amazing MMOG expierence. And because Turbine did such a botch job with DDO, I won't touch LOTR While I enjoyed the LOTR setting immensely, I see it's foundation for a MMOG as being shakey and weak, it seeks to ride the coattails of the movie's success, but games are not movies. Movies can inspire games, but they can't be the sole contributer of a game's content.

Crash86 · August 2006

I can't speak for Turbine. They're privately held, and their financial records are their own.

However, I am an accidental stockholder in Atari. I had stock in a company which was bought by a company who was bought by Atari. I didn't even know I was an Atari stockholder until I got the Atari annual report and proxy ballot in the mail last week. And the numbers are not good. They're not even bad.

They're dreadful. Atari went from a FY '05 profit of about $5.7 million to a FY '06 loss of nearly $69 million. That a decrease of -1312% according to the numbers of public record.

DDO is listed in the annual report in the "Other New Releases" category (as opposed to the "Top Sellers of Fiscal 2006" category). That's the only mention of the game in the report.

If they could make more money selling the rights than having the rights, they'd sell 'em in a heartbeat. I don't know if they can, though. They may be too deeply in bed with WoTC to be able to extricate themselves.

Scaris · August 2006

Originally posted by Crash86
I can't speak for Turbine. They're privately held, and their financial records are their own.
However, I am an accidental stockholder in Atari. I had stock in a company which was bought by a company who was bought by Atari. I didn't even know I was an Atari stockholder until I got the Atari annual report and proxy ballot in the mail last week. And the numbers are not good. They're not even bad.
They're dreadful. Atari went from a FY '05 profit of about $5.7 million to a FY '06 loss of nearly $69 million. That a decrease of -1312% according to the numbers of public record.
DDO is listed in the annual report in the "Other New Releases" category (as opposed to the "Top Sellers of Fiscal 2006" category). That's the only mention of the game in the report.
If they could make more money selling the rights than having the rights, they'd sell 'em in a heartbeat. I don't know if they can, though. They may be too deeply in bed with WoTC to be able to extricate themselves.

OUCH

Scaris · August 2006

Originally posted by Lathial
Could Turbine be in trouble? A few years back after AC1, turbine was the talk of the town- with AC2 on the horizon and LoTR and DDO licenced- it looked like Turbine was going to sweep the MMO market.
AC2 was really fun for about one month then the floor dropped out- class revamps hurt and content was lacking big time. On a side note- I loved the player music- sitting around playing music with friends was fun! The flute was great.
DDO was really fun for about two weeks then the trap door opened and everyone failed their reflex save.
Will LoTR be another dud? Turbine has always done something diferent then the mainstream but AC2 and DDO are complete failures. LoTR's has a lot of hype and new takes on the MMO world but im afraid it wont pan out. With such a limited scope of the licence and linear gameplay- ie. The Game ends- you win and save middle earth "try again?"
Im a bit worried for Turbine
Lath

You think LotR has alot of hype? I see a very scary lack of hype for it myself and little interest honestly. No one is talking about it, no one is debating it or anything. It's like a very uncomfortable silence.

Lathial · August 2006

I think your right about lack of hype with LoTR- when Turbine first announced it and DDO I followed both for quite a while. It seems that the production of LoTR has gone very slowly- at least in public view with very little in the way of info/screens/faq's.

I wonder if the public is burned out on LoTR's? Can Turbine create a world that feels like middle earth and captures the epic scale? I dont think they can- im not sure if anyone can. Im not even sure I want to see a combat/magic system super-imposed into a world with little reference to build off of.

Ive read all the books twice and seen the movies countless times, but I have never played any LoTR titled games; I guess i just didnt want to be disapointed.

DDO has a very solid combat system to use and reference-d20- they just blew it with resting and 100% instanced-ness. but Turbine is having to create something and in essence add a hole heck of a lot to a very fleshed out world...

Lath

Shurijo · August 2006

Originally posted by Seeker728

Personally, I had misgivings the moment they said they were going to use the world of Eberron for their setting instead of the Forgotten Realms. If they had merely taken all the material the FR and tried to reproduce it electronically, they would've had 10x the success that DDO in it's current incarnation has. Their reasons for choosing Eberron over FR, while I saw where they were coming from, were still a step in the wrong direction. I guess greed was the main motivator, all those royalties they'd have to cough up for the FR liscense and to the original authors of said material. Pity really, as a FR based campaign had all the material present for an amazing MMOG expierence. And because Turbine did such a botch job with DDO, I won't touch LOTR While I enjoyed the LOTR setting immensely, I see it's foundation for a MMOG as being shakey and weak, it seeks to ride the coattails of the movie's success, but games are not movies. Movies can inspire games, but they can't be the sole contributer of a game's content.

Eberron has tons of content which almost 0 is used here. Instead of using the continent where everything is located, they choose the continent that is unknown, unmapped, open for the DMs to throw anything into it. If they would have choose the continent where Eberron really takes place (Khoravaire), it would have been much, much better. Eberron is also the official WotC setting now, so all new games (like the RTS one) will probably use Eberron instead of FR (except for ongoing games like NWN, etc.).

Please don't judge Eberron based on Turbine, its actually a really good setting with a very poor game made from it. Turbine still hasn't added any of the Eberron classes, items, spells, etc. and only 1 of the (new) Eberron races.

Drkreaper · August 2006

I actually had a lot of fun in DDO got in a great guild met some of the best people ever & for thee most part had a blast ...

but with the lack of content & the way some of the quest are designed (chain quests) it got boring very quickly esp with the multiclass nerf ...the best part of a dnd system is the ability to mix & match classes & choose your stat builds .....with ddo & a lv 10 cap (brain-dead move there) the chars are not very effective at higher lv content ..thus you have to go straight class or maybe just a touch of multi like a 9/1 or maybe a 8/2 but that's the most you can do ..

they also need some type of crafting ..doesnt need to be wow type but were you can customise armor & weapons & trinkets..

guild halls you would think would be a no brainier for a forced group game ...

the bank is a joke & should be linked to all same char accounts..

I am hoping that turbine can get its ddo act together as the game has a ton of fun potential

ste2000 · August 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by Lathial
Could Turbine be in trouble? A few years back after AC1, turbine was the talk of the town- with AC2 on the horizon and LoTR and DDO licenced- it looked like Turbine was going to sweep the MMO market.
AC2 was really fun for about one month then the floor dropped out- class revamps hurt and content was lacking big time. On a side note- I loved the player music- sitting around playing music with friends was fun! The flute was great.
DDO was really fun for about two weeks then the trap door opened and everyone failed their reflex save.
Will LoTR be another dud? Turbine has always done something diferent then the mainstream but AC2 and DDO are complete failures. LoTR's has a lot of hype and new takes on the MMO world but im afraid it wont pan out. With such a limited scope of the licence and linear gameplay- ie. The Game ends- you win and save middle earth "try again?"
Im a bit worried for Turbine
Lath

You think LotR has alot of hype? I see a very scary lack of hype for it myself and little interest honestly. No one is talking about it, no one is debating it or anything. It's like a very uncomfortable silence.

I agree.
In fact there is little to discuss about, very weird situation, considering it has been in production for more than 2 years..........
I think Turbine ate more than it could chew.
Developing 2 major titles at the same time is not something you see often in the game industry, even less in the MMORPG area.
Plus, at the moment they need to sort out DDO.
If DDO fails, they close.

Alalala · September 2006

I played AC and AC2 and I play DDO now.

What's so funny and somewhat tragic is how the problems of AC2 have re-surfaced in DDO. Maybe that's not such a surprise given that Turbine's Ken Troop played an active role in both. In AC2 you did the same quests over and over as you waited for next month's update, which introduced a handful of new features and some quests. Sound familar to the DDO crowd?

Turbine has got to get over this concept they can release an empty game then spend the next years slowly filling it up. Ok, it worked for Asheron's Call, but that was what? 8 years ago?

Let's compare this to EQ2 which launched with 1,500+ quests, where 99% of them you could not repeat. Can you imagine DDO launching with 1,500 different dungeons? Can you imagine DDO where you and your party are, night after night, entering a dungeon you've never seen before? No more warrior zerging and bored wizards casting web over and over again, but thoughtful strategy and a true sense of PnP advetnure.

I'd guess that if LotR fails, Turbine might collapse completely. We will have to watch where Ken Troop goes after that and be wary.

Lateris · September 2006

If they do fall then SOE will buy them....

Validur · September 2006

You think LotR has alot of hype? I see a very scary lack of hype for it myself and little interest honestly. No one is talking about it, no one is debating it or anything. It's like a very uncomfortable silence.

I'd imagine that has something to do with it's being made by Turbine. It's instant flame bait for a poster to hype about the fact LOTRO is going to be a good game (which I reckon it will be, que flame). I'm giving Turbine the benefit of the doubt.

grinreaper · September 2006

I will add my 2copper:

I used to contract for Atari. It is grim times there, but frankly, they have surived worse.

As for Turbine, they seem to be banking more on LOTR than DDO...but if both games fail their save, stick a fork in em.

By the same token, if LOTR does better than expected or DDO picks up...and they will be lighting cigars with hundreds over there.

I dont see SOE picking up either title...unless it is at firesale prices like MxO was. SOE is hot to get in bed with Perpetual, who is playing hard to get.

mixlespek · September 2006

I LOVED Ac 1 and ac 2. I thought they were both excellent games. The problem is Turbine was the first one to come out with an MMORPG Sequel ( compare eq1 subscribers to eq2 subscribers, nearly the same story). So it was looked at as a major failure. DDO was just horrid beyond reason, mainly because it was set in the wrong area and it was 100% instanced ( HUGE MISTAKE). People need static areas.

Scaris · September 2006

Originally posted by Lathial
Could Turbine be in trouble? A few years back after AC1, turbine was the talk of the town- with AC2 on the horizon and LoTR and DDO licenced- it looked like Turbine was going to sweep the MMO market.
AC2 was really fun for about one month then the floor dropped out- class revamps hurt and content was lacking big time. On a side note- I loved the player music- sitting around playing music with friends was fun! The flute was great.
DDO was really fun for about two weeks then the trap door opened and everyone failed their reflex save.
Will LoTR be another dud? Turbine has always done something diferent then the mainstream but AC2 and DDO are complete failures. LoTR's has a lot of hype and new takes on the MMO world but im afraid it wont pan out. With such a limited scope of the licence and linear gameplay- ie. The Game ends- you win and save middle earth "try again?"
Im a bit worried for Turbine
Lath

I can't ever recall a time where Turbine was the talk of the town. I stopped worrying after the failure of AC 2, now I am just waiting to see the closure notices.

Elnator · September 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by Lathial
Could Turbine be in trouble? A few years back after AC1, turbine was the talk of the town- with AC2 on the horizon and LoTR and DDO licenced- it looked like Turbine was going to sweep the MMO market.
AC2 was really fun for about one month then the floor dropped out- class revamps hurt and content was lacking big time. On a side note- I loved the player music- sitting around playing music with friends was fun! The flute was great.
DDO was really fun for about two weeks then the trap door opened and everyone failed their reflex save.
Will LoTR be another dud? Turbine has always done something diferent then the mainstream but AC2 and DDO are complete failures. LoTR's has a lot of hype and new takes on the MMO world but im afraid it wont pan out. With such a limited scope of the licence and linear gameplay- ie. The Game ends- you win and save middle earth "try again?"
Im a bit worried for Turbine
Lath

I can't ever recall a time where Turbine was the talk of the town. I stopped worrying after the failure of AC 2, now I am just waiting to see the closure notices.

Hehe I was wondering that myself. When AC1 first released there was a bit of a stir about turbine and how "great" AC1 was and how it was going to "kill" EQ and UO... blah blah...

Within 7 months AC1 had dwindled back down to sub-100k numbers and continued to slide for years. It was never any kind of talk since. And AC2 certainly never made much of a stir except with die-hard fans of AC1 (which really isn't that many people when you start figuring out that AC1 only had 50-60k players when AC2 released)

No, Turbine is on borrowed time. If DDO and LOTR tank they are doomed... If either of them take off then Turbine will be fine. Right now DDO has already failed unless they pull a miracle outta the hat. The number of people online each night has continued to dwindle. I still pull trial accounts out now and then to see what the server pops are... (and they're not good, some servers have fewer than 300 people online at peak time, none have more than 400 or so.... what's worse: Most of the people I talk to are on trial accounts, NOT subscribers).

mindspat · September 2006

Originally posted by Crash86

I had stock in a company which was bought by a company who was bought by Atari. I didn't even know I was an Atari stockholder until I got the Atari annual report and proxy ballot in the mail last week. And the numbers are not good. They're not even bad.
They're dreadful. Atari went from a FY '05 profit of about $5.7 million to a FY '06 loss of nearly $69 million. That a decrease of -1312% according to the numbers of public record.
DDO is listed in the annual report in the "Other New Releases" category (as opposed to the "Top Sellers of Fiscal 2006" category). That's the only mention of the game in the report.
If they could make more money selling the rights than having the rights, they'd sell 'em in a heartbeat. I don't know if they can, though. They may be too deeply in bed with WoTC to be able to extricate themselves.

What, is someone saying history *does* repeat its self? Shocking.

Yeebo · September 2006

It boggles my mind that turbine was able to snag such big licsenses. AC 1 was a modest success, AC 2 tanked. That's not much of a track record. DDO seems like a failed experiment at this point, it's going to be an uphill battle for them to get it into the black. LotR seems like pretty much their last hope.

I am also a bit astounded by how little we are hearing about LotRO. It may mean that someone at Turbine had an attack of common sense at the last moment, and that it is currently being retooled into something that has a chance in hell of being successful from whatever bizzare mess they were working on before (I can only dream). It could also mean that they were counting on revenue from DDO to help fund it's development and that the company is currently struggling. I'm interested in LotR, but there is no way in hades i would try it until it's out and the reviews start to roll in. Given how little attention they paid to beta tester feedback in DDO there's no reason to even bother with the LotR beta.

Crash86 · September 2006

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Crash86

I had stock in a company which was bought by a company who was bought by Atari. I didn't even know I was an Atari stockholder until I got the Atari annual report and proxy ballot in the mail last week. And the numbers are not good. They're not even bad.
They're dreadful. Atari went from a FY '05 profit of about $5.7 million to a FY '06 loss of nearly $69 million. That a decrease of -1312% according to the numbers of public record.
DDO is listed in the annual report in the "Other New Releases" category (as opposed to the "Top Sellers of Fiscal 2006" category). That's the only mention of the game in the report.
If they could make more money selling the rights than having the rights, they'd sell 'em in a heartbeat. I don't know if they can, though. They may be too deeply in bed with WoTC to be able to extricate themselves.

What, is someone saying history *does* repeat its self? Shocking.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

- George Santayana

Obviously, Santayana isn't required reading for MMO development teams.

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