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EVE PvP: Am I missing something? I hope I am.
Oculitus
Member Posts: 203
in EVE Online
First this disclaimer, this is no way meant to be a "flamebait" post nor is it something veiled slam at EVE. I really sincerely like EVE, there are so many aspects of the game that are extremely well made and enjoyable. The reason for this post is so I can recieve feedback from more experienced players. OK, now that's out of the way, here's the problem...
The problem, most basically, is that I've found the PvP to be underwhleming. Yeah, I know how that sounds. I've read how amazing the PvP is in EVE. I've read it many times in many places. Naturally EVE's PvP is one the main reasons I started playing in the first place. So I'm posing the question to you all is: Have I missed some critical element of PvP?
I've been playing for over four months now. As many have, I grew bored of the high sec PvE play, and committed myself into discovering the PvP aspect of EVE it's so famous for. First I tried solo low-sec (player) pirate hunting. When my prey showed up in 2 HACs and destroyed my cruiser within seconds, the futility of solo bounty hunting was made abundantly clear. At least until I get a lot more SP and ISK. But, no big deal, I guessed it might not be doable.
After that I joined a corp in one the larger alliances and made the move into 0.0 space. This where the most of my dissapointment comes from. My experience so far has been sitting at a gatecamp for hours with little to no activity. The very few targets that show are killed in a far too quick and unsatisfing manner.
If many enemies happen to show up game crushing lag ensues. The lag eliminates any sense of control over your ship. The commands are irrelevent by the time you see them executed. Most frustrating is when your ship is fine, but frozen by lag, one moment and destoyed the next. When killed while only seeing two frames in over thirty seconds, it's hard not to be frustrated. I really don't care about the lost ships, but I just haven't had much fun in EVE's PvP yet.
I've even had terrible lag when it was just me and a large enemy gate camp. I know there's many threads about the lag problem in large battles,
which would be a great deal of fun without the godawful framerate. Frankly, given that lag is a problem for all MMOs, I don't really see this being solved very soon. I hope I'm wrong but it just seems like widespead problem with network technology and not something specfic to CCP.
I've heard little of small scale PvP not involving gamecamps, in or out of the game. Perhaps this is what I'm missing out on.
So again, I ask, is there more to EVE's PvP than long largely uneventful gatecamp sessions and lag-ridden large-scale battles? I genuinely hope there is and I just haven't found it yet, because I can see so many good things in EVE. Thank you for any insight you can provide.
The problem, most basically, is that I've found the PvP to be underwhleming. Yeah, I know how that sounds. I've read how amazing the PvP is in EVE. I've read it many times in many places. Naturally EVE's PvP is one the main reasons I started playing in the first place. So I'm posing the question to you all is: Have I missed some critical element of PvP?
I've been playing for over four months now. As many have, I grew bored of the high sec PvE play, and committed myself into discovering the PvP aspect of EVE it's so famous for. First I tried solo low-sec (player) pirate hunting. When my prey showed up in 2 HACs and destroyed my cruiser within seconds, the futility of solo bounty hunting was made abundantly clear. At least until I get a lot more SP and ISK. But, no big deal, I guessed it might not be doable.
After that I joined a corp in one the larger alliances and made the move into 0.0 space. This where the most of my dissapointment comes from. My experience so far has been sitting at a gatecamp for hours with little to no activity. The very few targets that show are killed in a far too quick and unsatisfing manner.
If many enemies happen to show up game crushing lag ensues. The lag eliminates any sense of control over your ship. The commands are irrelevent by the time you see them executed. Most frustrating is when your ship is fine, but frozen by lag, one moment and destoyed the next. When killed while only seeing two frames in over thirty seconds, it's hard not to be frustrated. I really don't care about the lost ships, but I just haven't had much fun in EVE's PvP yet.
I've even had terrible lag when it was just me and a large enemy gate camp. I know there's many threads about the lag problem in large battles,
which would be a great deal of fun without the godawful framerate. Frankly, given that lag is a problem for all MMOs, I don't really see this being solved very soon. I hope I'm wrong but it just seems like widespead problem with network technology and not something specfic to CCP.
I've heard little of small scale PvP not involving gamecamps, in or out of the game. Perhaps this is what I'm missing out on.
So again, I ask, is there more to EVE's PvP than long largely uneventful gatecamp sessions and lag-ridden large-scale battles? I genuinely hope there is and I just haven't found it yet, because I can see so many good things in EVE. Thank you for any insight you can provide.
Comments
Now in relation to your problem, it is quite normal... the most common pvp you'll come across is either Blob warfare, gate gank squads and high sec wars. But they are not the best fun ones... The most fun pvp I have ever encountered is a 3 man interceptor pack, 4th man in a BB (blackbird - ECM cruiser death), anymore and people sort of notice you when you jump in together, this way you have really, really fast small ships, double the power of a frigate, if not more and the ability to warp when ever you want... just dont try and take on a BS or two... make sure they are between frigate and BC... Usually your BB will be able to jam most anything... but if they fail, they have 0 defense... 1 round of well trained fire from a BS and say good bye to your ECM. Trick is now to choose your targets.
You dont have insta gank capabilities that HAC gank squads have, your ships Arn't THAT expensive and you have a good chance to survive ( just watch them drones) You run from a few, and you kill quite a lot. and if you really do want to have some sort of tank - find a decent AF pilot and get them in the... either Caldari or Amarr AF that has a great tank.. they can cause even more damage then others too.
Dont go solo, always have 1-2 friends with you. And as we continually repeat, NEVER FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFPORD.. I made that mistake early on - lost a raven when I went afk.... took 3 weeks of BC work to pay the guy back for his fittings *shudders* t2 extenders and BCU's are friggin expensive.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
yep..
this is a problem - blob warfare/gatecamping is boring...
I find missions to be more fun than that.
The most fun i had in eve was in "wolf-packs" or ambushing gatecampers
wolf pack == small group (3-5 or so) of fast moving ships. As the other guy said, interceptors are great, but also some cruisers (stabber is awesome!) or for some suprise use a "sped up" battleship (nano-phoon sometimes works)
You hunt around, using the smaller, faster ships to scout ahead to see what is in the area, and bringing the heavier guns up quickly as well. The trick is to be able to capture the enemy for long enough to bring in your heavy support without dying.
ambushes against gatecampers can be fun as well. Thats sometimes harder - but same idea, use small ships to catch them and hold them, then bring in heavy guns.
Now the good part, the key to PvP in EVE is not actually killing someone but actually figuring out how to go for the kill. If you solo you have to make sure that you can take on someone you actually can handle. Killing famed player pirates is very hard for a solo player. If I hunt solo it is usually during empire wars, where I track down specific players and kill them because I have element of surprise, you also have to remember that charging in recklessly into combat without chances to survive is stupid, deny your opponenet the kill mail.
The best way to PvP for fun in 0.0 is roaming gang startegy. I am sure that your corporation has some enemies that visit your terretory quite often or you may even have NBSI policy (that is always fun). So you get a gang going, get a map see how many people are in the system in the last 30 minutes. Pay close attention to choke points (systems that connect regions together), if other people have gate camps they will have them there. If there are 6 - 7 people in the system go check it out, or ask in alliance chat if anyone is there. If no one answers it is cleart that who ever is there is not supposed to be.
Like most things in EVE understanding comes from constant involvement in something. So experiment with different things, just dont get stuck on blob wars, those are no fun (but are quete effective dont forget that).
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
No there is nothing left....PvP is who has the advantage in being in the system first. Late commers might as well push the button and blow their ship up themselves.
Combat last 5-30 seconds if your lucky. Pretty good for 1000 tone starships with massive shields and armor....yeah...real good thing those shields and armor. No tactics....No data links...no fleet missle defence...just jump in...and if your lucky you get to see someone die before you go. Most of the time I used a tristan....and walked away from the computer...
Why, cause I could not do a thing to change the outcome of the battle anyway. So they would go down the list of targets leaving the REAL shooters alone. Not smart going after the older players first. Our newbies racked up kills faster then the "bad guys" could replace their ships.
By the time I got back...either I was cloned or floating in space with a bunch of "GF" on local...now where is the good fight? I have not seen one in years.
shift+ctrl+alt+E = effects off
shift+ctrl+alt+T = turret effects off
This will help your frame rate in pvp, unless you're involved with the current war in 9uy involving unity then forget it. My 'geddon got popped by a Nyx, I was told over vent but didn't see it until 10 seconds later Damn dreads always lag me out!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
The best PvP can be found in empire wars where one small corp fights another. What this ususually involved is small groups of ships hunting each other in a system or two and when they meet the baattles can range from 1v1 of similar stature to 7v7, now most likely it will be close to the lower number but what this does is creat more equall PvP.
Roaming Gangs!
I think this is what you're looking for.
Get some friends together in fast ships and maintain a tight fleet formation while flying into enemies territories. What you'll be looking for is ratters and minning ops who are unaware of your presence until they're locked and wrecked. Small interceptors with MWD's and good tackling abiities is what you'll want. It's also good to diversify a little have a few ships ECM modules.
It can be very intense if you catch a freighter or a carrier when you have a gang of 10-20 interceptors.
They key is you'll NOT want to set up camps. You want to stay moving and you want to move fast. You want to have the "gang leader" with BM's of the region you're running through to facilitate a quicker process of infusion into the region although being if everyone is in interceptors it'll make gate BM's moot.
Stay together and no scouts. Move in all at the same time and if there's *anything* in the system attempt to engage it! Communication is a winner in these types of incursions.
Only problem is I'm a few weeks away from flying an interceptor and a week and half away from an assualt frig. guess I'll have to stick with my cheap-fit crusier til then. But I'm more optimisstic about the my PvP prospects now. Also, it's nice that interceptors are overly expensive.
This whole thing has lead me to wonder, why doesn't anyone talk about this small, fast ship PvP more often. I read about wolf packs here and there but not that often. Perhaps they are and just missed it. But I rarely hear people in game talking about "wolf packs" and similar tactics. It's strange, you'd think far more people would be doing this. Well, hopefully I can round up some like minded folks and try out a frig squadron for myself.
Let me just clarify couple of things, before you get confused (it seems that you are from your post, but I might be wrong).
First, roaming gang tactics is not often talked about because it can be employed only once you have established your self in 0.0. So when new people come into game it is kind of hard to tell them to go do it. It will be a lot better once factional PvP will be in place, then people will have to stop wandering where to PvP when you are a noob.
Second, when we say small agile gangs we dont meet they should only consist of frigate or limited to such. Any squad has to have certain rolls filled. The most basic roles are tackler and killer (a lot of different names for 2nd one). The tackler does exactly what it sounds like, he is flying small fast ship, to get up to the enemy warp scramble and webbefy him thus preventing escape. Killers on the other hand can fly an array of different ships starting from T1 crusers (more on that later) to battleships. Their solo objective is to deal maximum DPS possible. I would recomend at least 2 BS in your roaming gang, because you will need something that can dish lots of damage and can take a lot too. There are a lot of sub-roles, such as support, EW, etc. but those two are major ones.
Third, don't discard your T1 cruser at being complite cannon fodder. I am not sure what race you are playing but there are some T1 crusers can kick ass BC ass and sometimes even BS. Read up on different builds, and proper startegy that goes with those builds. T1 cruser is one of the best tools for PvP if you want to do a mixture of damage dealing and tackling. Interceptors and AF are nice, however you cant insure them to full amount (like all T2 ships), making T1 crusers even more attractive.
Good luck!
The other advantage T1 cruisers have over their T2 counter parts is the Tech 1 economic efficiency advantage. Urza meant to say that you can insure T1 ships to the point where the payout is almost of equal to the full purchase value of your ship. T2 on the other hand only recieves an insurance payout which is typically less than 10% of the market value of the T2 ship. Basically this means that for every T2 ship you destory, you can afford to lose 10-15 T1 ship and still come out ahead.
The other advantage T1 cruisers have over their T2 counter parts is the Tech 1 economic efficiency advantage. Urza meant to say that you can insure T1 ships to the point where the payout is almost of equal to the full purchase value of your ship. T2 on the other hand only recieves an insurance payout which is typically less than 10% of the market value of the T2 ship. Basically this means that for every T2 ship you destory, you can afford to lose 10-15 T1 ship and still come out ahead.
ditto
I fit a sniper-rax with all tech ii gear and go out popping frigs sometimes. if I lose it, oh well, there goes 15m after insurance. Whoopde doo. Just to be different I fit all 250 II's damage mods and no tank. (I mean _none_). I can instapop an executioner from 70 km away.
It's faster because there is no plate and I only engage what I can kill with it. The thorax gets into warp so fast without plates it can keep up with a frig gang and be the big gun. I actually had two taranis's chasing me once half way across deklien (20 jumps) and they didn't catch me. Most likely their skills sucked, but that's still impressive for a cruiser. I have maxed navigation skills (I am also a ceptor specialist) so this may be coloring my perception of how fast it is.
It's my favorite ship, and favorite type of pvp.
I fly tech II fitted sniperthrons for alliance fleet ops but fleet ops aren't really fun, just a show of force. Quite boring actually. Watching paint dry is more fun than popping a POS tower or watching a gate.
Roving pvp is where it's at. Good cheap fun.
We also do destroyer fleets. 35-40 of us hop into tech I destroyers (tech 2 and named gear is explicitly forbidden), fly to enemy space and terrorize them. Talk about fun! That's how we blow off steam as an alliance. The fleet commander gets to be very cavalier 8) The whole fleet costs less than one NPCing battleship, so it's quite economical. We consider the fleet paid for once we get a BS kill and then get wreckless 8)
-Viz
Was a fairly good sized but forunately lag-free battle of about 12v12. We lose a few tech 1 frigs, they lost a command ship. So it was a very sucessful fight. And I survived, with my Arby performing admirably. Well I think it did as it's somewhat difficult to determine the damage output of a drone boat amidst a fair-sized battle. Point is I had fun and experienced the fact that one can participate in PvP and contribute with an inexpensive tech 1 crusier.
Having said that, I still find the idea of flying a super-fast interceptor very appealing. Esspecially after trying to chase one. Certainly they're less economical than a tech 1 crusier, but they're not overly expensive as far as tech 2 ships go. So I'll be content with flying an Arby or a Thorax, while I wait to try interceptors out.
Thanks for all the feedback, I do appreciate it.
alliance pvp have allways been mostly a waiting game.
as ppl here have said, get smal gangs going, hunt in 0,0 and low sec. or you could join a corp that does empire wars
If pitbulls could lock their jaw the first pitbull would still be hanging on
PoSes killed quality PvP and massive isk inflation making it impossible to inflict financial harm on non-noobs killed meaningful PvP.
Sorry. If you can go back to mid-late '04 you'd have a blast.
I guess there are advantages to a limited perspective. I don't know how things were in mid-'04 as I have only been playing for a month. But I can say one thing, I am having a huge blast with this game NOW!
Used to be better than it is now? Fine. But I am willing to settle for a simply incredible game.
>>>I've heard little of small scale PvP not involving gamecamps, in or out of the game. Perhaps this is what I'm missing out on.>>>>
The two largest alliances in the game - ASCN and BoB - send mid sized gangs at each other so their PvP players can have some fun. It is understood between the two high command groups that these incursions are not preparations for an invasion, but a much needed emergency vent to give the fighter segment of their member corporations something to do.
Its also a well known rule with both sides that smacktalking will not be tolerated (by your OWN side) and known exploits (like the time honored logoffski tactic) are not to be used. If the other side is better, you lose ship (and perhaps pod and clone) instead of relying on known exploits and dirty tricks to safe your hide.
This kind of SOP is not very common in EVE, but you can choose your own destiny. Your honor and your reputation are two assets in EVE that are much more valuable than money or ships.
Have fun
Erillion
>>>>You didnt honestly just say that ASCN doesnt log, did you?>>>>
If someone from ASCN uses the "logoffski" tactic let his CEO know. If this is normal behaviour (single occurences may be due to network problems and/or lag) (s)he will be kicked from corp. Same for using lag creating tactics like dropping cans or shuttles full of crap bookmarks. Or an endless stream of gang invites. The usual "bag of dirty tricks".
Have fun
Erillion
ASCN fight fair from what I have seen but considering how large they are there got to be some bad eggs. Only thing I dislike about ascn is the fact that their idea of a small roaming gang includes 40+ pilots
Do you really expect to get a fight with a group like that?
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Oh, the prize of success ;-)
BoB and ASCN High Command are in contact to arrange more gangs of the medium type (20ish) ... the reasoning behind it is that you dont get PvP experience from ganking lonely ships or transports. You get it from brutal gang dogfights where many ships die and pilots lose their clone.
ASCN is known for its blobs (dozens to hundreds of ships) and overreaction (a 4 carrier group plus support flottila as response to a hostile gank gang of 10), but thats because its an Alliance that is very much focused on defense and empire building, where as BoB is the offensive "Nice sector, we take it" type. In a way they complement each other. Bob now encouraged ASCN to send gangs into their territory, so BoB gets more experience in defense (or wants to teach its own carebears a lesson to be more on their toes) and ASCN is happy to oblige to give their pilots more experience in offensive operations. That was a reaction to BoB sending more attack gangs into ASCN territory, which resulted in some nice medium fleet engagements (especially around K-9).
Its simply more fun to whack a BoB pilot on the head (or be whacked by them) in a straight exploit free fight.
Especially when compared to a smack talking sniper gank squad that does logoffski tactic when a ship gets within 50 km of them. Or a corp that drops 50 cans and shuttles full of crap bookmarks into their POS so that any fleet attacking it has to look at a black loadin screen for 10 minutes due to legendary lag while the defenders kill off the attackers (one ship every 10 seconds) without counterfire. Deathstar/Lagstar POS warfare is not possible with CCPs current server settings.
Have fun
Erillion
Presumably you read CYVOK's blog.Presumably you read his recent one where he told ASCN to go nuts with every dirty trick in the playbook because other people were using them against you guys. Who do I talk to so that CYVOK gets kicked from ASCN?
I'm just using that as an example because I'm too lazy to break into my personal logger screenshot folder.Abridged because its pretty boring to read in entirety.
>>>where he told ASCN to go nuts with every dirty trick in the playbook because other people were using them against you guys.>>>
If you quote, please quote correctly.
a) He allowed the use of "shady" tactics against those who use them against us for a certain time period
b) He specifically excluded those tactics that the developers have already named as exploits. In the blog thread and subsequent threads the specific tactics were discussed, especially which ones were a still a NO NO.
c) He stated (in the post you mentioned and in subsequent posts) that the rules of engagement against everyone else has not changed. Only against certain groups the use of their own tactics has been authorized.
The reason for this blog was to make the developers aware of the situation and it has worked well. It led to some temporary bannings of ASCN members, that have been petitioned and the banning was removed. The GMs had a very hard time explaining why they tolerated these tactics from some groups and immediately used the ban bat when it was used by ASCN. GMs told us to collect data on any use of these "dirty tricks" ... presumably to collect data for permabans in the future for the most rabid exploiters. ASCN is now in this data gathering mode.
Have fun
Erillion