Rats abandoning a sinking ship?

drunkfatjew · August 2006

Over the past few weeks the forums over at MMOCenter have turned from neutral to just plain old angry (with a few hopeful souls still lurking about). Information requestes are turned away almost as fast as refund requests. Its just plain old ugly. One of my posts, and really not even one of my worst, caused Cienna (one of the Devs) to tell me she's given up on the forums forever!

Sequence of events:

- November 2005: Game to be released
- December 2005: Engine port, game to be released Feb/Mar 2006
- Feb 2006 to today: No information. Nada. None. And lets not even bring up the E3 debacle.
- Early August 2006: The troops are getting restless, refund and information requests rampant
- Late August 2006: Dev quits forum

Hell for $20 its almost been worth watching gasping for air. Wish it weren't so. Not quite as ugly as DnL but it sure is heading that way.

fulmanfu · August 2006

lol who quit? that chick from africa who popped in twice a week to put someone down?

anyway i was given my refund. anyone who wants one 'can' get one if they care enough though i was given it before i had to go through those channels. and yeah, i did care enough not for the money but for being taken for a ride. did not appreciate it one bit.

bverji · August 2006

You get the refund back in January, fulmanfu?

Cherybdis · August 2006

I heard somebody bought you out... not refunded.

KillerJimmy · August 2006

lol Yet another game that sounded cool. I almost wish I had preordered so I could be REALLY pissed about this mess!

The funny thing about DnL was almost all the devs talked about was how huge the game world was. I knew something was fishy with that right away. I guess the perma death in an MMO should have been the tip-off here. You cannot balance perma death in an MMO: 20 griefers all chase the perma death guy around to gank him...either he kills them all and the whine for 6 months or they kill him and he whines for 6 months.

Good times anyway, I'll sit back and watch some more of this spectical.

pyros98 · September 2006

Cienna is quite the arse-rag. Never got along with her.

But meh...they can keep my $20...they scammed hard to get it.

Gueber · September 2006

Really how hard could it be for them to show us what they have been doing for the past few months? So what if they are "to busy working on it" to give an update. All it takes is one of them to take a few hours and put something together to show us it's not vaporware and they actually have a game. From our perspective, the only logical reason is that they have nothing to show. Their game is being labeled as vaporware and they should of done something about it weeks ago if they could have. Now it is to late and most of the people following The Chronicle, and the rest of MMOCenters games for that matter, have already written it off as vaporware and won't be taking a second look. I hope they know that by ignoring the communities request and not updating for months is burrying any hope of success they might of had. They need to do something right NOW if not only to stop the bleeding, but recovering from this will be an impossible feat.

shae · September 2006

Gueber, I think at this point its pretty obvious this was scam, not a particularly well thought out one but still, a scam none the less. It's been done before, unfortunately at the players expenses and it's a shame so many of us have been taken in but live and learn as they say.

Unfortunately, most of that is just heresay obviously, there's no defanite proof either way other then perhaps some bad business practise and horrible cutomer service. That's just proof of incompetence, not shady dealings. So we'll have to wait until more is proven then hopefully we can get this forum kicked off of mmorpg.com and let the truth be known. For now, all we can do is help people not fall into the same trap.

bverji · September 2006

o
I am a pretty big critic of RR, but I try to keep it as real as possible. I wouldn’t call what RR has done as a scam; that would insinuate that the initial intention was to deceive the public in exchange for money.

The things that I am sure of and have been collaborated by independent press is that RR is a real company made with the intention to make MMO’s in an innovative way. that the chronicle is at least in some basic stage. That the Ghetti’s (the owner/son that own/run RR) are wealthy enough that they don’t need to scam people for money.

I think basically what you have here is a wealthy man who has handed 10 million dollars to his 19 year old son to create a career for himself developing video games. I used to follow COH very closely when it was being made and the original lead designer was Mac (long forgotten his last name) and he had all these big ideas for making a game and what the genre needed, but he just didn’t have the ability to lead his team into creating a finished project. So in the case of COH the owner put Jack Emmert into the lead designer position because he had a vision about how to get the game finished and on the market.

By what I have seen about this game that’s what you have here with RR. I am certain that they have been doing a ton of work on the game, but this kid Adam Ghetti just doesn’t have the experience and leadership to focus the work done into a finished product.

What you see is the result. A bunch of floundering around that basically just illustrates the chaos of the situation.

Edit: removed double paragraphs

f hfloundering around that basically just illustrates the chaos of the situation.

shae · September 2006

Originally posted by bverji

o
I am a pretty big critic of RR, but I try to keep it as real as possible. I wouldn’t call what RR has done as a scam; that would insinuate that the initial intention was to deceive the public in exchange for money.

The things that I am sure of and have been collaborated by independent press is that RR is a real company made with the intention to make MMO’s in an innovative way. that the chronicle is at least in some basic stage. That the Ghetti’s (the owner/son that own/run RR) are wealthy enough that they don’t need to scam people for money.

I think basically what you have here is a wealthy man who has handed 10 million dollars to his 19 year old son to create a career for himself developing video games. I used to follow COH very closely when it was being made and the original lead designer was Mac (long forgotten his last name) and he had all these big ideas for making a game and what the genre needed, but he just didn’t have the ability to lead his team into creating a finished project. So in the case of COH the owner put Jack Emmert into the lead designer position because he had a vision about how to get the game finished and on the market.

By what I have seen about this game that’s what you have here with RR. I am certain that they have been doing a ton of work on the game, but this kid Adam Ghetti just doesn’t have the experience and leadership to focus the work done into a finished product.

By what I have seen about this game that’s what you have here with RR. I am certain that they have been doing a ton of work on the game, but this kid Adam Ghetti just doesn’t have the experience and leadership to focus the work done into a finished product.

What you see is the result. A bunch of floundering around that basically just illustrates the chaos of the situation.

What you see is the result. A bunch of floundering around that basically just illustrates the chaos of the situation.

f floundering around that basically just illustrates the chaos of the situation.

Hehe... good post Bverji, as always, but that last bit kinda comes off like you got a twitch going on there :P.

I do understand what your saying though and when I see the common sense of what you describe and compare that to the proto typical paranoid we're being scammed idea, it seems to make much more sense.

But even you have to admit, given all that you/we know as you explained, take into consideration the current state of affairs and then the appaling why by which business is being conducted... a reasonable conclusion is that there certainly something not quite on the level about the entire thing.

Maybe I've become so jaded with the project but I think it's pretty plain to see at this point.

bverji · September 2006

Originally posted by shae

But even you have to admit, given all that you/we know as you explained, take into consideration the current state of affairs and then the appaling why by which business is being conducted... a reasonable conclusion is that there certainly something not quite on the level about the entire thing.

Maybe I've become so jaded with the project but I think it's pretty plain to see at this point.

Oh yea, I mean there is certainly some cover up about the fact of where the game is. I mean what company is going to come out and say well we have gotten over our head and don't know realy how to swim to shore? I am just saying I think that the lead designer is making an honest attempt to make a game and be successful. However, at this point, I'll be the first to say I don't think this 20 year old kid has the talents/experience to pull it off and is hoping that it workes itself out. The misinformation, silence, push backs, refund situation, Nathen being fired, poor business practices ect. are just an extention of that uncertainty.
What a lot of people seem to just skip over is that RR has gone from a company that it's orginal plan was to simply create a lot of art work and make simple modifications to a leased engine; to buying an engine and trying to expand it's capailities.
The amount of work and focus between those two things is just huge. If the kieve engine would of worked as planned or it had simply been a simple matter of porting one engine to another I would of had some level of faith that RR could produce something. However, RR was never designed to work on the type of scope they are now and it's not just a matter of highering a few programmers. I really think that the people who still have faith in RR's ability to release these games simply haven't seen how much more the company has taken on, or are just delusioned by their desire to have a game to play. RR is just ripe to get bought out by another company at some time in the future and maybe then we'll see something.

As for refuding money. I don't think paying back the money for pre-orders is really a big issue for RR. I think real issue is that they realise that with the bad press they have gotten that if they allow refunds that once the game is made no one will try it. They know that the people who have payed to play it will at least jump into beta and of course RR's hope/expectation is that their game will be wonderful that all is forgiven.

shae · September 2006

Interesting take on it Bverji and as always, again, well writen.

I think your a little more optimistic about RR's original intentions then I am/was/whatever but I appreciate everything your saying.

The question is this of course. At this point, even if RR can even manage to spit something out (if they are still planning to do so) does it make any sense at all to go forward with it? Let's face it, gamers are a picky bunch, we may not be able to always make or break a game but I think it's pretty obvious at this point, RR has gotten off on the worst possible foot that could be.

About the only way I see it being feasible is continuing as they are right now and once they have something close to release, close down and start up as a new company. That's about the only way I can see them getting over being a known company with a very bad reputation in the world of gamers.

pyros98 · September 2006

When I say scam...it's more of the way I feel right now. RR left out key information on how they were planning to make their games (ie. Limited features and releasing more features every six months). If I would have known that to begin with, I would have never even looked at the company. That is why I feel scammed even though they have decided to make TC as complete as possible. I still can't see TC having anywhere near what was promised by Nathan (which he knew was mis-information) in the Dev Journals whenever it makes release.

And most of all...a company that will blatantly leave out information and make false promises is NOT a company I would ever give money to.

bverji · September 2006

Originally posted by pyros98

When I say scam...it's more of the way I feel right now. RR left out key information on how they were planning to make their games (ie. Limited features and releasing more features every six months).

That was all pretty up front when the pre-orders first started. There was no intentional cover up of these buisiness focuses. It was very up front on the original webpages, interveiws, and forums about what RR was trying to do and how they planned to do it. I don't know when you started following RR, but if it was after Nov 2005 I can see how you could feel that the intention of limited releases was hidden. Hoever, those intentions just became buried as the communities concern shifted and what communication given by RR at that time was in reguards to those shifts. As a result they never back tracked and redefined who they are as a company. That being said that information is found pretty easily on through their webpages.

bverji · September 2006

Originally posted by shae

The question is this of course. At this point, even if RR can even manage to spit something out (if they are still planning to do so) does it make any sense at all to go forward with it? .

Well, I tend to agree with you. I think they have dug a hole for themselves. However, as ceaserghost has said on many occasions when the game comes out they expect to be vindicated and that seems to incompass the company's general feelings. So from their point of veiw they don't think the bad press is as important as the product. All I can say about that is that it illustrates the complete lack of understanding of their market, of general buissness and of the history of the mmo's that have failed/succeeded thus far. Stupid is as stupid does. This company has sacrificed it's bottom line, out of stupidity, even if at this point RR comes out with an excellent game (which I find unlikely) it will never be as successful as it would of been if the company would of cultivated good will.

That being said at the end of the day none of that means that the game reguardless of bad press won't make money. If the game has market apeal it will have market appeal and will bring in numbers. Where the bad press will hurt them at that point is that their customers will be ready to jumpship. RR won't be given the benifit of the doubt as they do the same stupid crap every other developer does (and RR has already proven they have the same tendency to do these things) and customers will leave RR's games more quikly as a result. Making their long term numbers a struggle. You can see these same trends in other MMO's

So if RR could come out with a good game and be a good cultivator I would say sure it would be worth doing, even though they have alreay hurt their bottom line. Although, RR has already proven that they are horrible cultivators with theit poor community handling and have given plenty of glimpses that the likelyhood is they don't have what it takes to make a great game.

dustyfog · September 2006

well here's a link to a press release posted on OGaming from last july where they promised 2 COMPLETE games by last fall now maybe i was just super hyped about a mmorpg gaming service being made here in Atlanta that i overlooked the ones saying the games were just going to be like books with just covers and no content but i remember more being said about the games being full featured from start and the ones people played more getting extra content and attention NOT that they were going to be partial games. and yes I'm one that broke my normal rule about pre-ordering a game without at least testing it first and pre-ordered back last july or so .

http://www.ogaming.com/news/3752~MMO_Central_Launches.php

infra172 · September 2006

Sorry but you people are probably not going to get your money back. If you read their website, you paid for access to their forums not the game. You got what you paid for. You should have read the fine print.

Should have listened to people like me who tried to warn you. This is just like Dark and Light. No shortage of booger-eating morons in the world for these snakeoil salesmen to steal from.

dustyfog · September 2006

Hmmmmm... actually i think i would get madder at someone calling me a " booger-eating moron" !!

actually when i pre-ordered it was access to the MMO Center an online game site where one fee enabled you to play as many as their games as you wanted . Access to the beta boards and entry to the Beta of TC was just thrown in .

oh and i forgot the Hat, T-shirt, & Poster which i got hat and poster LOL i don't think anyone got all 3 as promised.

bverji · September 2006

Originally posted by dustyfog

well here's a link to a press release posted on OGaming from last july where they promised 2 COMPLETE games by last fall ... i overlooked the ones saying the games were just going to be like books with just covers and no content but i remember more being said about the games being full featured from start and the ones people played more getting extra content and attention NOT that they were going to be partial games.

You are jumping to alot of conclusions about what was/is/and will be their intentions upon release. There is plenty of negative things to say about RR without overstating things that may or may not br true.

As for infra even if you we're right (which you aren't thats not what was promised...it was included in a list of many things that most never came to past) you basically just trolling. If you beleive people won't get their money back that's fine, but let's leave out the umbrella of attacks.

dustyfog · September 2006

whoa please tell me what i jumped to conclusions about ?? and who's talking about what may or may not happen at the possible release

bverji · September 2006

Originally posted by dustyfog

... they promised 2 COMPLETE games by last fall now maybe i was just super hyped about a mmorpg gaming service being made here in Atlanta that i overlooked the ones saying the games were just going to be like books with just covers and no content but i remember more being said about the games being full featured from start and the ones people played more getting extra content and attention NOT that they were going to be partial games. and yes I'm one that broke my normal rule about pre-ordering a game without at least testing it first and pre-ordered back last july or so .

the conclusions you jump to is that the games were going to be like books w/ no covers or contents. None of the media ever suggested anything to such degree and you are over stating RR concept. Within the context of what RR stated from the begining making games with good fundimentals and expanding the games that have the biggest following makes since.

You go on to talk about games being full featured and then expanding them. obviously if a game comes out complete of feature you can't expand the features later. Plus there were never any interveiws given that i am aware of (and I follow the mmo media pretty closely since Aug 2005 about the RR) ever stating the game/s were going to come out "full featured." You also conclude because a game doesn't come out fully loaded that the game is a partial game. that's just not how MMOG games develope, they are meant to grow both in features and content over time. To claim that a game comes out in a partial format denotes that it is somehow unfinished. A game can be finished to play and for release and still have a plan to grow for the future.

It is impracticle for MMO's to come out "full featured" as it first, limits the possibility for growth and change. Second, would take forever to include everything up front that could go into a MMOG

dustyfog · September 2006

ok the article i linked to was in july 05 so before august when you started following ( did you read it ? ) and the NDA doesn't allow me to say anything more about my " book without a cover" simile . you can always add new features to a mmorpg example DAOC was a complete game from the start but every expansion they add new features . i think maybe i said sumthin the wrong way or you took sumthin the wrong way . Are you a pre-order beta member ? that might make a difference also . anyway i'll go back to being a forum reader and not a writer

bverji · September 2006

I didn't mean to discourage you from posting. You're propably right and I over reacted to your post. The only thing I really was trying to point out was that since RR hasn't released anything yet it's to early to determined if releasing games without "full features" is a good or bad thing.

pyros98 · September 2006

The OGaming article does say that they will release limited content, but I didn't associate content with features. On top of that Nathan was posting all sorts of very good features (Dev Journals) that were going to be in TC. I'm sorry RR blatantly falsely advertised their product...because they knew that most of the Dev Journals weren't going to make it in game. They claim it's not false advertising because they're still on the drawing board...but the wording of the Dev Journals lead me to believe they were going to be in-game. Still feel stupid for believing these people, but eh...live and learn.

bverji · September 2006

Yea, I understand were your coming from. My veiw of things are a little different. I think the intention was to have such featers that nathen had mentioned and if you look back there is evidence of Adam comfirming nathen's claimes and even more where he could of corrected the thoughts of the community if he chose to. I think any of the recent set backs come from the fact they have finally gotten some clue as to how hard it is to make an MMO and are now back peddling.

Again I point out that people seem to forget where this company has come from in their original concept. When RR came out they thought they were just going to take the Keive engine add some art work and minor twinks to the engine and BOOM they have a game. From that mind set they could add everything they wanted to the game, but obviously that didn't happen and instead of just admitting it they have basically started from scratch and left anyone following the game in limbo until whatever happens next happens (I think they'll end up selling the work they have done).

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