Originally posted by logangregor And for the FIRST TIME TANKS will be TANKS IN PVP. Instead of just being the charachter with a ton of hit points thats hard to take down, the tank classes will be offensive and defensive in group settings.
However, movement BETTER DAMN WELL be as fluid as movement is in WoW. If its like the daoc i remember where melee can interupt your casting COMPLETELY with one swing of a weapon and casters have to stand perfectly still to do anything, COUNT ME OUT
Ohh absolutely! In Fact I would like to take a step even further...Make the Movement even Better then WoW. I also remember how bad casting was sometimes in DAOC, However I'm pretty certain they fixed that "inadequacy"...I recall that little Shaman casting that Rock Fist nuke while getting beat on by a dwarf. It was in one of those interviews on WAR-RvR i think.
The tanks will have to move and engage the enemy while simultaneously protecting there healers/dps casters. The casters as well will have to engage targets while moving strategically to keep themselves protected behind there tanks.
Exactly! This is what i realy hope we see...Strategic movement that is more realistic movement. Anything, in my opinion, is better then the "I'm gonna attack that Priest, So i better magicly pass straight threw those 4 big orcs in my way, so i can get in melee range" we see in most games these days. So yes, it is also my hope that they removed the "clunkiness" they had in DAoC charicter movement.
Well i never acually liked playing a stealther, but i like the paranoid feeling of always beeing aware of them. Gotta love the rush when someone suddenly attacks you from behind (and hopefully surviving)
In WoW everyone ended up with +movement speed echants on their boots and all possible movement enchancing talents. The fact that running away or moving fast wasn't penalized with anything else than not being able to dodge (at least that's what was claimed but people dodged my attacks damn fine while back towards me), was quite absurd. If you hit someone in the back, at least give a damage and +hit bonus for any class. If you can't see yourself being hit, you aren't prepared for the brunt of the blow. Same with jumping. If you're jumping and someone hits you head on, you're not going to be able to react to the blow in the same way as when you're standing or moving slowly in a combat position. Of course there could be a -hit penalty for running and jumping opponents, but damage should be increased with a possible "daze" or knockdown effect.
Another silly thing about wow pvp was the fact that movement impairing effects were beyond priceless. Any class that could, would slow the enemy down or snare them as much as possible. The pvp was a lot about kiting.
The worst part of WoW was naturally the fear kiting, sheep, frost trap kite, stunlock, and any other disables. Playing is no fun when you can't do anything. Especially with the rogue stun locks where certain clothies just couldn't get a trinket to disable them.
Also moving around creates lag barriers that make the fight uneven. Again WoW as an example. A lot of rogues, druids and warriors used to move around in a way that made casting at them impossible. Collision detection will fix this a bit, but you might still have some moving target in range on your screen but not be able to hit him since in reality he's a bit more ahead of you.
I'd say make certain melee classes less dependent on wasd+spacebar and more dependent on skill executions and combinations. Some melee could be a bit more mobile(for example the hammerer will probably have something to do with run distance/speed momentum), but the tanks could have moves to keep them in place.
Originally posted by callmetoby Originally posted by logangregor And for the FIRST TIME TANKS will be TANKS IN PVP. Instead of just being the charachter with a ton of hit points thats hard to take down, the tank classes will be offensive and defensive in group settings.
About damn time too. Cheers to that.
I just remembered....Guild Wars has collision detection but there pvp is absolutely terrible due to other reasons. With what Ive seen from playing DAOC and what Ive read from Warhammer devs, Im sure the pvp will be large scale and GROUP oriented. I dont know if they mentioned terrain being a factor of pvp but it certainly was in DAOC. IMO large wide open areas + varied terrain makes for great tactical pvp.
In response to the above poster who wanted less movement and more skill, couldnt you have great movement and more skill? I want the game to be fun for all classes. Im sure for melee classes its not fun chasing after a caster that hops around like a bunny but for caster classes its not any more enjoyable being a "daoc caster" that has very little movement. In WoW using line of sight and movement gave casters the same resources melee classes used so often. In daoc there was no way I could take my runie and midfight run thru a tank class and start casting. Id get swat like a fly.
What I'm saying is mobile classes should be punished/gain benefits accordingly for being on the move. Getting hit on the move = more damage, being hit on the move by non-aoe damage = less likely. Getting hit on the move would result in a knockdown or a daze effect. Getting hit in the back while running would result in a large amount more damage. This would make fleeing a viable option only if you could ensure your opponent cant chase you straight away and would make mobile classes think twice about where to run. Also people on the move would have a harder time hitting with their attacks as well, unless they had special attacks like charging at the enemy or other moves that could only work while running.
I think protecting the casters should actually be possible and defensive tanks be a viable class in PvP. This is why movement needs to be somewhat restricted.
In Guild Wars if you hit a "moving target" in the back your % to crit gets double or tripled. Makes some sense to me. If you are standing still your in a "ready" or "defensive" postion. But if you turn tail and run you lose that. Just like in Dialbo II were if you run you lost all defense coming from your armor. It's not really a problem either you simply learn to strafe side to side instead or use a defensive skill before turning your back on a foe.
AKA in Diablo II your armor only "functioned" when you were walking or standing.
In DAoC if you were sitting your AF was set to 0. So your armor only functioned if you were standing.
In don't think a system that was built to always give increased damage on back hits would be that good. I'd rather have "considtional" skills like DAoC had. Very high damage skill that you can only use on a targets backside. Though I could live with a system that all "skills" did extra damage to a backside. I just don't think auto attacks should get a bonus.
Originally posted by Babbuun What I'm saying is mobile classes should be punished/gain benefits accordingly for being on the move. All classes are mobile. If I feel like gaining distance from my attacker mid fight, I should be able to so. There has to be more for a tank to do other than just BREAK THE DISTANCE BETWEEN HIM AND MY SOFTY CASTER. Getting hit on the move = more damage, being hit on the move by non-aoe damage = less likely. Getting hit on the move would result in a knockdown or a daze effect. Getting hit in the back while running would result in a large amount more damage. Do you only play melee classes? This is sounding a bit biased. This would make fleeing a viable option only if you could ensure your opponent cant chase you straight away and would make mobile classes think twice about where to run. Also people on the move would have a harder time hitting with their attacks as well, unless they had special attacks like charging at the enemy or other moves that could only work while running.I think protecting the casters should actually be possible and defensive tanks be a viable class in PvP. This is why movement needs to be somewhat restricted. Me and you just disagree. I would like there to be a balance. DAOC was far too slow and restrictive. Asherons call was beyond ridiculous (monkeys on steroids). Movement as it is now in WoW with added collision detection would be great imo.I have no problem with added bonus's to damage based on where charachters positon themselves. But being dazed or snared when I want to gain distance mid-fight is just BS. That puts all of the advantage squarely with the meatheads. Im sorry, did I say that? I mean tanks.
Originally posted by Babbuun 1.All classes are mobile. If I feel like gaining distance from my attacker mid fight, I should be able to so. There has to be more for a tank to do other than just BREAK THE DISTANCE BETWEEN HIM AND MY SOFTY CASTER.
2.Do you only play melee classes? This is sounding a bit biased.
3.Me and you just disagree. I would like there to be a balance. DAOC was far too slow and restrictive. Asherons call was beyond ridiculous (monkeys on steroids). Movement as it is now in WoW with added collision detection would be great imo.
4. I have no problem with added bonus's to damage based on where charachters positon themselves. But being dazed or snared when I want to gain distance mid-fight is just BS. That puts all of the advantage squarely with the meatheads. Im sorry, did I say that? I mean tanks.
I am Mr. Wow. A fan from beta and now bitter at the game. I have played 6 characters to 60 and guilded up and raided naxx with an undead warlock. I've also gotten rank 11 in PvP with a human warlock. My first raiding 60 was a priest way back in the times only MC was available(also pvped with him pretty heavily when the honor system was released). I've also raided as a warrior and a druid and had a twink rogue I pvped around with quite often.
Frankly I think WoW went all wrong with the mobility in PvP thing. Sure it seemed fun to jump around while running a marathon and everyone could do it, but it resulted in classes with +movement to have a large advantage, too large to be worth two talent points or a small radiant shard. Mobility should be more strategic, not every noob zipping around all over the place to avoid getting hit or to kite others around.
1. My point is not for the tank classes to be meatwalls, but to be able to knock down, slow and piss the hell out of mobile classes and eventually lead to a fight between the mobile class and the tank with a chance for the mobile class to come out on top. In WoW defensive specced warriors were only good for tanking the final bosses in alterac valley since all of the other elites could be kited apart from the lame bunker people. Being defensive should have it's rewards in PvP, at least being able to keep a hammerer off your shaman for a bit as a black orc and to not just see him pass by.
2. I played all kinds of classes, mainly warlock though.
3. I'd agree if the +movement talents and skills were less rewarding or more expensive, def spec warriors actually had a chance in battlegrounds, and every spell would automatically lock on to the target when cast without additional addons.
4. Have certain skills for casters, ranged and melee dps to be able to immobilize a target for enough time to escape. A defensive tank could have a skill on the other hand, that would make you block the next attack, neutralizing the escape attempt. And don't make either of these skills spammable of course. This would make you have to think about when you want to escape if at all and as a tank you'd have to think if you wanted to block a high damage attack or the escape attempt. Since when was there any advantage in WoW bgs for defensive warriors (apart from ones with thunderfury)?
I think it should be looked at from a group perpective. Hopefully collision detection will be in PvP enabled areas. Amougn other reasons, WoW PvP is lacking because of it's lack of collistion dectection. DAoC PvP system is also explioted by the lack of one. The whole Run through -> face target -> backstab. Collision detection will also let melee focused players to have a much more active role.
However, it may not be possible do to bandwith restrictions.
I think that no stealth is not a bad thing. It takes away from any sense of realisim that there is to a game. Although, I do think sneaky/quiet classes are still cool. I think a happy balance would be to be able to hide the big freaking name above your character, not be able to be targeted via TAB and other usual "target nearest" commands, and to be able to have armor that blends in with the environment. That'd be the most realistic way to go about a stealthy class and I think it would be an awesome addition to an MMO.
Originally posted by Dark_Lord_13 I'll thow in my $0.02 on this. First in Warhammer there are no "stealth" classes, save the Assassins of the Skaven and Dark elves, but they actually just hide in the woods, or in units of their own army. In essence they're not invisible, just hiding. Yea, that's what they say about stealth in other games such as WoW and others, but let's face it, you can hide without being invisible in games. And since there is no invisibility in Warhammer, there should be no invisibility in WO. Just my opinion.
hmm
If memory serves me right Rangers in DAOC could blend in to the terrain with a certain skill. It didnt make them completely invisible BUT it did make them really hard to pick out of the terrain.
I wonder if something like that could be worked in to keep dark elves and skaven assasins "hide" true to the lore.
Originally posted by Babbuun Originally posted by logangregor
Originally posted by Babbuun1.All classes are mobile. If I feel like gaining distance from my attacker mid fight, I should be able to so. There has to be more for a tank to do other than just BREAK THE DISTANCE BETWEEN HIM AND MY SOFTY CASTER. 2.Do you only play melee classes? This is sounding a bit biased. 3.Me and you just disagree. I would like there to be a balance. DAOC was far too slow and restrictive. Asherons call was beyond ridiculous (monkeys on steroids). Movement as it is now in WoW with added collision detection would be great imo. 4. I have no problem with added bonus's to damage based on where charachters positon themselves. But being dazed or snared when I want to gain distance mid-fight is just BS. That puts all of the advantage squarely with the meatheads. Im sorry, did I say that? I mean tanks.
I am Mr. Wow. A fan from beta and now bitter at the game. I have played 6 characters to 60 and guilded up and raided naxx with an undead warlock. I've also gotten rank 11 in PvP with a human warlock. My first raiding 60 was a priest way back in the times only MC was available(also pvped with him pretty heavily when the honor system was released). I've also raided as a warrior and a druid and had a twink rogue I pvped around with quite often. Frankly I think WoW went all wrong with the mobility in PvP thing. Sure it seemed fun to jump around while running a marathon and everyone could do it, but it resulted in classes with +movement to have a large advantage, too large to be worth two talent points or a small radiant shard. Mobility should be more strategic, not every noob zipping around all over the place to avoid getting hit or to kite others around.1. My point is not for the tank classes to be meatwalls, but to be able to knock down, slow and piss the hell out of mobile classes and eventually lead to a fight between the mobile class and the tank with a chance for the mobile class to come out on top. In WoW defensive specced warriors were only good for tanking the final bosses in alterac valley since all of the other elites could be kited apart from the lame bunker people. Being defensive should have it's rewards in PvP, at least being able to keep a hammerer off your shaman for a bit as a black orc and to not just see him pass by.2. I played all kinds of classes, mainly warlock though.3. I'd agree if the +movement talents and skills were less rewarding or more expensive, def spec warriors actually had a chance in battlegrounds, and every spell would automatically lock on to the target when cast without additional addons.4. Have certain skills for casters, ranged and melee dps to be able to immobilize a target for enough time to escape. A defensive tank could have a skill on the other hand, that would make you block the next attack, neutralizing the escape attempt. And don't make either of these skills spammable of course. This would make you have to think about when you want to escape if at all and as a tank you'd have to think if you wanted to block a high damage attack or the escape attempt. Since when was there any advantage in WoW bgs for defensive warriors (apart from ones with thunderfury)?
I see your point now
My apprehension with some of the things you said comes from my hatred of (not defensive warriors) but warriors who are just mindless slaughtering machines. I know you have faced them on your warlock and if you played DAOC, Im sure you have seen them in the higher bgs (before RvR where casters dominate).
Im also apprehensive about playing a game that is like DAOC where movement is so slow. Without a movement buff and in combat my sorc/runies felt like as if they were walking thru tar.
To be fair however, WARHAMMER is not WoW and I will have to wait and see before I draw any true conclusion.
And to be clear Im not a fan of the Druids who can get out of anything and just run away and heal or the mages that frost nova/blink and run off.
I think its a good change but im gunna miss it. Not that I am a rouge kind of guy, i just loved killing stealthed rouges in WoW. All in all the game looks good and I am looking forward to open beta.
-Game List- LOTRO - currently playing Travian - currently playing WoW - 1yr - Quit FFXI - 5mth. - Quit SWG - 3mth. - Quit Rappelz - 2mth - Retired Space Cowboy - 2mth - Retired Dark and Light - 1 day - Quit
I'm kind of dissapointed in the no stealth move by Mythic. Personally I enjoy playing a assassin type class. I played a Shadowblade and a Infiltrator mainly in DAoC and a Rogue and a Hunter in WoW. I guess for the type of game WAR is going to be stealth isn't necessary but I sure will miss being a assassin. As long as the classes are fun and group PvP doesn't consist of DAoC style whoever lands a AoE mez first wins I guess it will be ok. I prefer WoW class mechanics and group PvP but I prefer DAoC style RvR system.
Originally posted by starman999 Well.... I like the idea that if I want to sneak up on somebody I actually have to be sneaky about it. Having people just appear and vanish all the time is frustrating and as this is supposed to be a pvp heavy game based on a war with a defined front line battle the stealth thing really doesnt fit in my opinion.
Are they enforcing a 1st person view with no camera turning?
If they don't, then it is nearly impossible to be stealthy.
If they are enforcing it, then they must start considering the sounds to make it fun and not too easy, someone running shouldn't stealth anyone ever. But that is just my opinion.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Ashanor I'm kind of dissapointed in the no stealth move by Mythic. Personally I enjoy playing a assassin type class. I played a Shadowblade and a Infiltrator mainly in DAoC and a Rogue and a Hunter in WoW. I guess for the type of game WAR is going to be stealth isn't necessary but I sure will miss being a assassin. As long as the classes are fun and group PvP doesn't consist of DAoC style whoever lands a AoE mez first wins I guess it will be ok. I prefer WoW class mechanics and group PvP but I prefer DAoC style RvR system.
This is a game of mass combat, and armies clashing straight into one another. Rogues wouldnt have too much of a place when 15 Boyz are Choppin people apart.
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About damn time too. Cheers to that.
Proud Member of Mongbat
However, movement BETTER DAMN WELL be as fluid as movement is in WoW. If its like the daoc i remember where melee can interupt your casting COMPLETELY with one swing of a weapon and casters have to stand perfectly still to do anything, COUNT ME OUT
Ohh absolutely! In Fact I would like to take a step even further...Make the Movement even Better then WoW. I also remember how bad casting was sometimes in DAOC, However I'm pretty certain they fixed that "inadequacy"...I recall that little Shaman casting that Rock Fist nuke while getting beat on by a dwarf. It was in one of those interviews on WAR-RvR i think.
The tanks will have to move and engage the enemy while simultaneously protecting there healers/dps casters. The casters as well will have to engage targets while moving strategically to keep themselves protected behind there tanks.
Exactly! This is what i realy hope we see...Strategic movement that is more realistic movement. Anything, in my opinion, is better then the "I'm gonna attack that Priest, So i better magicly pass straight threw those 4 big orcs in my way, so i can get in melee range" we see in most games these days. So yes, it is also my hope that they removed the "clunkiness" they had in DAoC charicter movement.
Another silly thing about wow pvp was the fact that movement impairing effects were beyond priceless. Any class that could, would slow the enemy down or snare them as much as possible. The pvp was a lot about kiting.
The worst part of WoW was naturally the fear kiting, sheep, frost trap kite, stunlock, and any other disables. Playing is no fun when you can't do anything. Especially with the rogue stun locks where certain clothies just couldn't get a trinket to disable them.
Also moving around creates lag barriers that make the fight uneven. Again WoW as an example. A lot of rogues, druids and warriors used to move around in a way that made casting at them impossible. Collision detection will fix this a bit, but you might still have some moving target in range on your screen but not be able to hit him since in reality he's a bit more ahead of you.
I'd say make certain melee classes less dependent on wasd+spacebar and more dependent on skill executions and combinations. Some melee could be a bit more mobile(for example the hammerer will probably have something to do with run distance/speed momentum), but the tanks could have moves to keep them in place.
Less movement, more skill say I.
About damn time too. Cheers to that.
I just remembered....Guild Wars
has collision detection but there pvp is absolutely terrible due to other reasons. With what Ive seen from playing DAOC and what Ive read from Warhammer devs, Im sure the pvp will be large scale and GROUP oriented. I dont know if they mentioned terrain being a factor of pvp but it certainly was in DAOC. IMO large wide open areas + varied terrain makes for great tactical pvp.
In response to the above poster who wanted less movement and more skill, couldnt you have great movement and more skill? I want the game to be fun for all classes. Im sure for melee classes its not fun chasing after a caster that hops around like a bunny but for caster classes its not any more enjoyable being a "daoc caster" that has very little movement. In WoW using line of sight and movement gave casters the same resources melee classes used so often. In daoc there was no way I could take my runie and midfight run thru a tank class and start casting. Id get swat like a fly.
Hopefully they can find a even medium.
I think protecting the casters should actually be possible and defensive tanks be a viable class in PvP. This is why movement needs to be somewhat restricted.
AKA in Diablo II your armor only "functioned" when you were walking or standing.
In DAoC if you were sitting your AF was set to 0. So your armor only functioned if you were standing.
In don't think a system that was built to always give increased damage on back hits would be that good. I'd rather have "considtional" skills like DAoC had. Very high damage skill that you can only use on a targets backside. Though I could live with a system that all "skills" did extra damage to a backside. I just don't think auto attacks should get a bonus.
Frankly I think WoW went all wrong with the mobility in PvP thing. Sure it seemed fun to jump around while running a marathon and everyone could do it, but it resulted in classes with +movement to have a large advantage, too large to be worth two talent points or a small radiant shard. Mobility should be more strategic, not every noob zipping around all over the place to avoid getting hit or to kite others around.
1. My point is not for the tank classes to be meatwalls, but to be able to knock down, slow and piss the hell out of mobile classes and eventually lead to a fight between the mobile class and the tank with a chance for the mobile class to come out on top. In WoW defensive specced warriors were only good for tanking the final bosses in alterac valley since all of the other elites could be kited apart from the lame bunker people. Being defensive should have it's rewards in PvP, at least being able to keep a hammerer off your shaman for a bit as a black orc and to not just see him pass by.
2. I played all kinds of classes, mainly warlock though.
3. I'd agree if the +movement talents and skills were less rewarding or more expensive, def spec warriors actually had a chance in battlegrounds, and every spell would automatically lock on to the target when cast without additional addons.
4. Have certain skills for casters, ranged and melee dps to be able to immobilize a target for enough time to escape. A defensive tank could have a skill on the other hand, that would make you block the next attack, neutralizing the escape attempt. And don't make either of these skills spammable of course. This would make you have to think about when you want to escape if at all and as a tank you'd have to think if you wanted to block a high damage attack or the escape attempt. Since when was there any advantage in WoW bgs for defensive warriors (apart from ones with thunderfury)?
However, it may not be possible do to bandwith restrictions.
To the OP:
I think that no stealth is not a bad thing. It takes away from any sense of realisim that there is to a game. Although, I do think sneaky/quiet classes are still cool. I think a happy balance would be to be able to hide the big freaking name above your character, not be able to be targeted via TAB and other usual "target nearest" commands, and to be able to have armor that blends in with the environment. That'd be the most realistic way to go about a stealthy class and I think it would be an awesome addition to an MMO.
no stealth I think is a good thing
no solo superstealther running wild
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I agree. I'm glad there is no stealth in WAR.
I think stealth, as in "Pop! I'm invisible now! Haha", is totally stupid.
---
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hmm
If memory serves me right Rangers in DAOC could blend in to the terrain with a certain skill. It didnt make them completely invisible BUT it did make them really hard to pick out of the terrain.
I wonder if something like that could be worked in to keep dark elves and skaven assasins "hide" true to the lore.
I am Mr. Wow. A fan from beta and now bitter at the game. I have played 6 characters to 60 and guilded up and raided naxx with an undead warlock. I've also gotten rank 11 in PvP with a human warlock. My first raiding 60 was a priest way back in the times only MC was available(also pvped with him pretty heavily when the honor system was released). I've also raided as a warrior and a druid and had a twink rogue I pvped around with quite often. Frankly I think WoW went all wrong with the mobility in PvP thing. Sure it seemed fun to jump around while running a marathon and everyone could do it, but it resulted in classes with +movement to have a large advantage, too large to be worth two talent points or a small radiant shard. Mobility should be more strategic, not every noob zipping around all over the place to avoid getting hit or to kite others around.1. My point is not for the tank classes to be meatwalls, but to be able to knock down, slow and piss the hell out of mobile classes and eventually lead to a fight between the mobile class and the tank with a chance for the mobile class to come out on top. In WoW defensive specced warriors were only good for tanking the final bosses in alterac valley since all of the other elites could be kited apart from the lame bunker people. Being defensive should have it's rewards in PvP, at least being able to keep a hammerer off your shaman for a bit as a black orc and to not just see him pass by.2. I played all kinds of classes, mainly warlock though.3. I'd agree if the +movement talents and skills were less rewarding or more expensive, def spec warriors actually had a chance in battlegrounds, and every spell would automatically lock on to the target when cast without additional addons.4. Have certain skills for casters, ranged and melee dps to be able to immobilize a target for enough time to escape. A defensive tank could have a skill on the other hand, that would make you block the next attack, neutralizing the escape attempt. And don't make either of these skills spammable of course. This would make you have to think about when you want to escape if at all and as a tank you'd have to think if you wanted to block a high damage attack or the escape attempt. Since when was there any advantage in WoW bgs for defensive warriors (apart from ones with thunderfury)?
I see your point now
My apprehension with some of the things you said comes from my hatred of (not defensive warriors) but warriors who are just mindless slaughtering machines. I know you have faced them on your warlock and if you played DAOC, Im sure you have seen them in the higher bgs (before RvR where casters dominate).
Im also apprehensive about playing a game that is like DAOC where movement is so slow. Without a movement buff and in combat my sorc/runies felt like as if they were walking thru tar.
To be fair however, WARHAMMER is not WoW and I will have to wait and see before I draw any true conclusion.
And to be clear Im not a fan of the Druids who can get out of anything and just run away and heal or the mages that frost nova/blink and run off.
-Game List-
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Travian - currently playing
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FFXI - 5mth. - Quit
SWG - 3mth. - Quit
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Space Cowboy - 2mth - Retired
Dark and Light - 1 day - Quit
Are they enforcing a 1st person view with no camera turning?
If they don't, then it is nearly impossible to be stealthy.
If they are enforcing it, then they must start considering the sounds to make it fun and not too easy, someone running shouldn't stealth anyone ever. But that is just my opinion.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren