Oh boy when I 1st started to play WoW in US Open Beta... Omg! I never saw a game like that... so much fun that it's almost unbelivable. For one week I played atleast 8h a day... And it's not like other games that you play 8h a day and your head hurts and your eyes hurt. No... It was just fun, fun, fun for 8h a day.
But that was it's own doom. Since I was soo hooked I played the game every possible moment. So very soon it got boring for me But still I returned back every now and then for month or two. And if some good MMO don't come out soon I just might go back again.
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
I agree with much of the article, but one factor was overlooked. The one area where WoW is actually innovative and the main reason that I've been playing it since beta. WoW is one of the few games that have built-in support for complete costomization of the UI via scripting. I've played dozens of online games, but the only other two that kept me for over a year also had scripting. Unfortunately, the BC expansion really cripples what scripts can do and I'm having serious doubts about continuing to play when 1/2 of my favorite addons (many of which I wrote) will no longer work or will loose much of their functionality.
The previous game that I played for a long time (4 years) was Asheron's Call. In it, the scripting wasn't built in, but there were approved hacks that allowed JavScript to completely control the game play.
My first MMO was a MUD, back when games were mostly text based. Once you advanced to wizard status, you could program your own part of the game in LPC. I played that game for over 5 years, most of it adding to my game area with many quests and even a guild.
---
Back to WoW, I think the reasons for its huge sucess are:
1) its easy to learn, easy to advance and fun to play.
2) its well done, with few bugs and polished content.
3) there is lots of variety to fit many different play styles.
4) its highly customizable with extensive macros and scripting.
Note: Those of you that rushed to 60 in a month or two and then got bored, you missed out on much of the fun in your rush to advance. Over half the fun can be in the journey to get there if you don't make a grind out of it.
Originally posted by eruvin ronan32 wrote, "you cant even solo past lvl 10. " This is supposed to be a negative? Ah well, again, to each their own. For me, one of the MAJOR reasons I disliked WoW was that soloing was a viable alternative all the way from lvl 1 to lvl 60 for each and every class. I don't know about you, but if I want to solo, I can plan an offline game. The reason I have stuck with mmogs since I first entered Norrath 1.0 in 1999 is because I find soloing boring. Community is what keeps me coming back to Mmogs. For me, I look for Solo play only if I cannot find a group. I never start out looking to solo. Again, there are countless non-mmog games for that. Unlike Ronan, I feel a game that allows one to solo all the time prevents community, rather than builds it. I feel a greater sense of achievement when I accomplish a goal as a result of building a team, whether it be group size or raid size.
of course its a negative..if i want to play final fantasy today as a new player..its likely that i wont be able to find a group or that i will have to wait maybe an hour to find one..in wow i can jump straight in and just play which to me is the main thing...plus having 40 ppl spam abilities on a npc is just boring....its more exciting in my opinion to have to rely on yourself to get through the encounter...plus half the people you meet in mmorpg's are assholes...and a sinle player game is not the same because you cant compete with other players.
You know, I find it interesting that the grinders are bashing a casual player's point of view. If I was to say I like to go to <insert your favorite theme park here> in order to go on a specific ride that is not a roller coaster, then the roller coaster fanatics bashed me, it would be a similar situation.
How dare you! How dare you tell me that I have to get to level 60 in 2 months in order to enjoy a game! How dare you tell me that soloing is NOT okay! How dare you tell me that the way I play is wrong! And again I say, How Dare You!
Now that I have that out, I will say that I have played this game since the original Beta as well. I have NO level 60 characters and I don't care. I recently got a second account so that I could stop contending with my minor child for play time and had to start all over. I chose a different class that I had not taken very far and have enjoyed moving up in that class for a change.
I played UO, EQ1, EQ2, DaoC, SWG and others and I will tell you now, WoW is IMHO, much more supportive of people like me that have a life outside of MMOs. I can log in for an hour or two and play without having to spend half that time looking for a group, that is, in itself, far above and beyond all the previously mentioned games.
So, for those of you that want to flame me for my PoV, go ahead, I don't care what you think anyway, cause you are not me and don't WANT to understand my PoV. I understand yours. But it is not mine. So, get a RL.
Amen to that Zg, it is this prevailing attitude that casual game play is somehow inferior to hardcore raiding that sets my teeth on edge. They have a lot of gall insisting that our play style is undeserving of the developers attention or that it should not be rewarded equally to raiding. Who the hell do they think they are anyway. I could give a rats ass about their play style. I have yet to ever come across a casual post that states that raiding and raiders should be removed from a game and yet almost evey single hardcore post states or implies that casuals are useless, unwanted, noobish and undeserving. Always accusing us of feeling entitled to game content, when in fact they are the ones who feel entitled to have things always go their way. Its a rare hardcore that can admit that other play styles are just as viable and deserving of being rewarded.
I call it the Brad McQuaid / Jeff Butler Syndrome. Play it the raider / hardcore way or hit the highway, because we're the best of the best and deserve the best and the rest can rot in hell.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Many players say the fun of WoW only begin after you reach 60. So (as a casual player) you spend 6 months of level grinding, then start to have fun? You need to pay over 75$, forced through painful grinds, only then the fun begin? And what's the point of playing a game that have no end?
Originally posted by Vrazule ... I have yet to ever come across a casual post that states that raiding and raiders should be removed from a game and yet almost evey single hardcore post states or implies that casuals are useless, unwanted, noobish and undeserving. Always accusing us of feeling entitled to game content, when in fact they are the ones who feel entitled to have things always go their way. Its a rare hardcore that can admit that other play styles are just as viable and deserving of being rewarded....
And yet, we pay the same price for the game as they do. Hmmm, makes you think doesn't it.
I think that a person whom gets bored about Ultima Online in 3 days do not have criterium to judge a MMRPG.
I respect any opinion, but i think UO contents are way better than WoW contents. In fact i think wow has a huge contects lack, thats why I got bored of WoW in 3 months.
waiting long long time to connect, traveling all day long to get the next quest update and unbalanced PVP is what i remember about those WoW days.
In fact, I left WoW in 3 months and I have been playing EQ2 since then. (just the way around he did)
A lot of people here seem to still have hostility to WoW and I can generally understand that as when you look around at this website and others like it, who are we the people who visit it? Generally more interested gamers, those who are really into the market behind just the game...
WoW is not the game built for the Hard Core, its the gate-way drug into a whole world of mmo's
I've dedicated most of my time to playing Eve Online for the last 3 years and a year of it was also spent in WoW, which imo are the two most opposite games as far as content and ease of play goes.. Eve being the hardest game to wrap yourself around and navigate, and WoW being the easiest! I've enjoyed it alot because when one got boring or frustrating the other was still there.
WoW is a great game for what it does. It's not here to please the hard-core most dedicated gamers in the mmo market, its the fun easy and enjoyable game you can just sit down and jump into for shits and giggles. Yes there is alot of great end-game content.. but still too easy for the truly hard-core. It's built for WoW players and it does offer something for everyone.
For everyone who still wants to complain about it and what not I simply ask this... stop and consider whether it's really the game for you, and think more about what it's doing for the market. Introducing mmo's to millions of people who might never have been interested. In the end I am going to say that WoW is most likely one of the largest reason other little mmo's like EVE have been doing better in the last few years, as more dedicated players are leaving WoW to explore the rest of the mmo market and making their way to other great games which many of us here love!
Originally posted by dadown I agree with much of the article, but one factor was overlooked. The one area where WoW is actually innovative and the main reason that I've been playing it since beta. WoW is one of the few games that have built-in support for complete costomization of the UI via scripting. I've played dozens of online games, but the only other two that kept me for over a year also had scripting. Unfortunately, the BC expansion really cripples what scripts can do and I'm having serious doubts about continuing to play when 1/2 of my favorite addons (many of which I wrote) will no longer work or will loose much of their functionality.
The previous game that I played for a long time (4 years) was Asheron's Call. In it, the scripting wasn't built in, but there were approved hacks that allowed JavScript to completely control the game play.
My first MMO was a MUD, back when games were mostly text based. Once you advanced to wizard status, you could program your own part of the game in LPC. I played that game for over 5 years, most of it adding to my game area with many quests and even a guild. ---
Back to WoW, I think the reasons for its huge sucess are: 1) its easy to learn, easy to advance and fun to play. 2) its well done, with few bugs and polished content. 3) there is lots of variety to fit many different play styles. 4) its highly customizable with extensive macros and scripting.
Note: Those of you that rushed to 60 in a month or two and then got bored, you missed out on much of the fun in your rush to advance. Over half the fun can be in the journey to get there if you don't make a grind out of it.
I agree. I always see people rushing to the endgame. It is probably those same people that complain on the forums and the same people that brag on the general channel about how they got to 60 in a week or 3 days playing time.
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
of course its a negative..if i want to play final fantasy today as a new player..its likely that i wont be able to find a group or that i will have to wait maybe an hour to find one..in wow i can jump straight in and just play which to me is the main thing...plus having 40 ppl spam abilities on a npc is just boring....its more exciting in my opinion to have to rely on yourself to get through the encounter...plus half the people you meet in mmorpg's are assholes...and a sinle player game is not the same because you cant compete with other players.
I agree with the person you are disagreeing with. Single player RPG's are made to solo in and they have better content. In MMORPG's you need to step out of your box and learn to socialize with people and make friends. That is how you guarantee yourself a spot in a group everytime you log in. Hell, people are quick to add a person to their friendslist in grouping MMO's when you know how to play your class and you are fun to play with.
Competing is a reasonable excuse to play a MMO even if you are a soloer, but if competing is your itch, then you are playing the wrong game. Guildwars is more of a competitive MMO, just as DAoC is. All it takes in WoW to win is good gear and a higher level. That's not really competing. Competing is when the playing field is even. In fact, FPS games with online capability is better for competing. However, if FPS isn't your thing, Guildwars is your best Fantasy competition game. It takes skill and team work to win in Guild Wars, unlike WoW.
Originally posted by zguillotine You know, I find it interesting that the grinders are bashing a casual player's point of view. If I was to say I like to go to in order to go on a specific ride that is not a roller coaster, then the roller coaster fanatics bashed me, it would be a similar situation. How dare you! How dare you tell me that I have to get to level 60 in 2 months in order to enjoy a game! How dare you tell me that soloing is NOT okay! How dare you tell me that the way I play is wrong! And again I say, How Dare You! Now that I have that out, I will say that I have played this game since the original Beta as well. I have NO level 60 characters and I don't care. I recently got a second account so that I could stop contending with my minor child for play time and had to start all over. I chose a different class that I had not taken very far and have enjoyed moving up in that class for a change. I played UO, EQ1, EQ2, DaoC, SWG and others and I will tell you now, WoW is IMHO, much more supportive of people like me that have a life outside of MMOs. I can log in for an hour or two and play without having to spend half that time looking for a group, that is, in itself, far above and beyond all the previously mentioned games. So, for those of you that want to flame me for my PoV, go ahead, I don't care what you think anyway, cause you are not me and don't WANT to understand my PoV. I understand yours. But it is not mine. So, get a RL. zguillotine
You played DAoC? In what year? I started DAoC around 4 years ago and grouping was not hard to accomplish. If you spent half of 1-2 hours LFG, you are highly anti-social. Everyone grouped in DAoC and that is what I miss. I am 26, married, and a father. I have a life, but I still think that MMO's are for groups, not for soloers and while I understand why someone would want to solo, I will never understand why those same people would rather play a MMO solo when the content is sub-par to single player RPG's instead of playing single player RPG's.
Now, I am a casual gamer. I play 2-3 hours a day on most days. Sometimes more and sometimes less. I also play WoW currently, because it has a large community. I don't give a rats ass how fast I level. So when I log in, my priority is to find a group. I hardly ever do, because of people like you, who would rather solo. But if it took me 30 min to find a group and then I played with that group for an hour, it would have been worth it, because grouping is so much more fun than solo play.
Originally posted by Vrazule Amen to that Zg, it is this prevailing attitude that casual game play is somehow inferior to hardcore raiding that sets my teeth on edge. They have a lot of gall insisting that our play style is undeserving of the developers attention or that it should not be rewarded equally to raiding. Who the hell do they think they are anyway. I could give a rats ass about their play style. I have yet to ever come across a casual post that states that raiding and raiders should be removed from a game and yet almost evey single hardcore post states or implies that casuals are useless, unwanted, noobish and undeserving. Always accusing us of feeling entitled to game content, when in fact they are the ones who feel entitled to have things always go their way. Its a rare hardcore that can admit that other play styles are just as viable and deserving of being rewarded. I call it the Brad McQuaid / Jeff Butler Syndrome. Play it the raider / hardcore way or hit the highway, because we're the best of the best and deserve the best and the rest can rot in hell.
Okay Vrazule, I am a casual gamer and I will tell you right now that 40-man raiders deserve better equipment than us, because they put more effort into the game than we do. Does it bother me that their gear is better than mine? No, it doesn't, because I know I worked hard for the gear I have. I am also a casual gamer who feels that solo play does not belong in an MMO. I believe that those that are spending a half hour finding a group are not trying hard enough, are anti-social, or are playing the wrong game to try and group in. WoW is a game designed for the soloer...at least until 60, with a splash of instance dungeons for groupers to get their feet wet in. So in WoW, it would take your a while to find a group. But in a grind game, like DAoC, if you are actively searching for a group, you will find one fairly quickly. But this is coming from someone who would group, even if it wasn't my quest that I was doing.
Then it has no bearing on your game play, but it does for those of us who want to get great gear without having to raid. Its all about different tastes. Tell me one thing, how would it be detrimental to a game, especially one that is casual from 1 to 55, to give the best rewards to all play styles? You people keep on with this risk vs reward crap. Excuse me, but what exactly do you risk in these games, especially in WoW where there is no real penalty for anything. Raiders invest large chunks of time in one sitting, casuals invest large chunks of time in many sittings, yet overall they spend very much the same amount of time in the game when all is said and done. There is abosultely nonthing to justify this gear gap between raiders and non-raiders, which is made even worse in a PvP game.
It has never been about risk vs reward, no matter how much devs prattle on about it. Its all about eliticism, epeen stroking and slowing down player progression with raiding mechanized time sinks. If people don't want to raid due to rewards being just as good solo or small group, then so what. All that tells me is that raiding isn't fun after all and actually has no other purpose than to deny segments of the player base content, give hardcores their epeenage and supposedly give players something to chew on in an end game that has no real content. Raiding is simply a mechanism to keep the hardcores occupied and to get them to stick around for as long as possible. Considering the casual draw of this game and the fact that we've hung around for two years begs one to wonder why they would choose hardcores over casuals. We outnumber you and we're just as loyal and are just as willing to spend money on a game as long as it caters to our play style from beginning to end.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
You obviously misunderstand some of the uses of scripting. Do you also think it is cheating for people to use the Key Bindings options to remap their keyboards? The whole point of macros and scripts is to customise your client to make the play less annoying and more fun. Just because you don't take the time to understand how to use them doesn't mean that you should deny it to others.
I play at least one character of each class and keeping track of who has what can be a real pain. So I use a script that tracks what each character has and lets me do a search for an item that I need. If you would rather take the time to log into each character and examine their inventory, that's fine, but prevent me from skipping that annoyance and don't call it cheating. I have another script that tracks items mailed between my characters that will notify me when an item is delivered. Sure I could write it down on a piece of paper and set a kitchen timer to ding when its delivered, by why not let the computer keep track of the mundane details like this instead of being a Ludite and opposing progress? How would using something like this be unfair to you?
PS. As macros and scripts are designed into the game, it IS how that game was designed to be played.
Originally posted by Vrazule Then it has no bearing on your game play, but it does for those of us who want to get great gear without having to raid. Its all about different tastes. Tell me one thing, how would it be detrimental to a game, especially one that is casual from 1 to 55, to give the best rewards to all play styles? You people keep on with this risk vs reward crap. Excuse me, but what exactly do you risk in these games, especially in WoW where there is no real penalty for anything. Raiders invest large chunks of time in one sitting, casuals invest large chunks of time in many sittings, yet overall they spend very much the same amount of time in the game when all is said and done. There is abosultely nonthing to justify this gear gap between raiders and non-raiders, which is made even worse in a PvP game. It has never been about risk vs reward, no matter how much devs prattle on about it. Its all about eliticism, epeen stroking and slowing down player progression with raiding mechanized time sinks. If people don't want to raid due to rewards being just as good solo or small group, then so what. All that tells me is that raiding isn't fun after all and actually has no other purpose than to deny segments of the player base content, give hardcores their epeenage and supposedly give players something to chew on in an end game that has no real content. Raiding is simply a mechanism to keep the hardcores occupied and to get them to stick around for as long as possible. Considering the casual draw of this game and the fact that we've hung around for two years begs one to wonder why they would choose hardcores over casuals. We outnumber you and we're just as loyal and are just as willing to spend money on a game as long as it caters to our play style from beginning to end.
It is not fair for people who don't put in the same painstaking ours into raiding to get the same gear that they have. It is like saying that the janitor at work should get the same pay as the CEO, because he spends the same amount of hours at the building, but doesn't do all the hard work of running the company.
I am not one of those risk vrs reward people that you just tried to label me as. I am one of those people that says give people what they deserver according to the work they put into the game. As a father, I have a choice in whether or not I want to raid. Every adult has that choice. You can choose to spend less time with your family and raid for the great gear if you really want it, or you can spend more time with your family and be happy that your reward is in real life, while in game, your gear is not as great as those who invest their lives into the game. It is fair and you shouldn't complain about it. And casual players do not put the same hours into the game as hardcore players or they wouldn't be called casual players.
It is not fair for people who don't put in the same painstaking ours into raiding to get the same gear that they have. It is like saying that the janitor at work should get the same pay as the CEO, because he spends the same amount of hours at the building, but doesn't do all the hard work of running the company.
I am not one of those risk vrs reward people that you just tried to label me as. I am one of those people that says give people what they deserver according to the work they put into the game. As a father, I have a choice in whether or not I want to raid. Every adult has that choice. You can choose to spend less time with your family and raid for the great gear if you really want it, or you can spend more time with your family and be happy that your reward is in real life, while in game, your gear is not as great as those who invest their lives into the game. It is fair and you shouldn't complain about it. And casual players do not put the same hours into the game as hardcore players or they wouldn't be called casual players.
why do you WANT great gear to be obtainable by farming a raid? there's no challenge in something you can farm. why do you want to have games that have no challenge, but reward you for wasting hundreds of hours in a single dungeon, going thru the same motions over and over for everyone to get the exact same gear....
why?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
why do you WANT great gear to be obtainable by farming a raid? there's no challenge in something you can farm. why do you want to have games that have no challenge, but reward you for wasting hundreds of hours in a single dungeon, going thru the same motions over and over for everyone to get the exact same gear....
why?
It's not what I want. I think it is a total waste of time, but I value things more than the best gear in game. But if that is the most tedious and hard thing to do, then I think that they should have it, not us. I would rather the best gear be obtainable through player crafting. Maybe take a lesson from another game that comes to mind where you get schematics as loot and those schematics are good for one set of armor, which is created by the crafters and that is the best loot in game. But it gives the adventuring types a reason to face challenging mobs (the schematics). The ones who loot the schematics get a cheaper set of best armor, because they only pay for the labor and armor, while casual players have to buy the schematics, which are not cheap, and the labor and armor. But that would only work where crafters is a class by themselves, not a skill on the side.
Or better yet, make the 3rd best armor able to be gotten by a long series of quests, like DAoC's Epic quest, and then the second best can be looted off of raid bosses that take no longer than 2 hours to do and needs no more than 2 full groups to beat. The first best could be a combonation of player crafted gear, which is then enchanted with abilities by another type of crafter. That would be the ideal solution and is implemented in DAoC. It works great.
no challenge? how many can actually do Naxxramas? some guilds can't even beat onyxia/rag. if you have tried raiding, you'll know challenge never leaves the experience. it only takes one person to wipe the raid and ruin everything. gathering the right items/gear required to successfully do the raid is another challenge. still no challenge? how about getting 40people to come online? these are but few of the challenges...
maybe you've mastered the game.
i'm inviting you to go rediscover the real world. it's epic.
The same kind of challenge can be applied to solo and small group content. They don't do it because they're too lazy to come out with enough content to keep people around for years at a time, so they take the lazy way out by slowing people's progress with raids. These things are built specifically to waste time, no only in their implementation, but also in the fact that people have to do them repeatedly 100's of times before they get all the gear they can while competing with 39 other people.
The devs choose to make raiding more challenging, raids are not inherently more challenging in and of themselves. If that were the case, single player games would never present a challenge to its players. I believe that if developers spent as much time and energy creating challenging non-raid content as they do on actual raiding, they'd have a mega hit on their hands. I believe this is what will bring in mainstream to the MMO industry, it certainly works for console games.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by bestiacorpus since when are WoW epic raids easy farm? no challenge? how many can actually do Naxxramas? some guilds can't even beat onyxia/rag. if you have tried raiding, you'll know challenge never leaves the experience. it only takes one person to wipe the raid and ruin everything. gathering the right items/gear required to successfully do the raid is another challenge. still no challenge? how about getting 40people to come online? these are but few of the challenges... maybe you've mastered the game. i'm inviting you to go rediscover the real world. it's epic.
yet again, someone rambling on about nothing and talking about how others have no life.
if something is FARMABLE, how is it challenging? how do you progress past MC to the next mind-numbingly boring raid instance? do you go out and gather the right items/gear from someplace OTHER than MC? no. you farm mc. you do mc week after week after week, until everyone in your guild that raids has all the class specific items from MC, then you move to the next one.
so, are you telling me that these people doing mc week after week are sitting there all hyped up and going "man, this is challenging. the mobs are never in the same locations, they've learned our tactics and are laying ambushes for us." OR, are they all calm and falling asleep and like 'ok, here's the next boss, who needs crap off him?'
guess you must not be playing wow. the things you mention aren't really much a problem for the raiding guilds. and if memory serves (or just watching the wife fall asleep playing her priest cuz well, yeah, the raiding is boring and she's just in there because they asked her to come along), you don't even need a whole 40 men to do them after a while.
so um, yeah, you're pretty much wrong on everything. raiding is NOT hard and challenging. MAYBE the first time or two someone does a raid, but after you're doing the same bloody raid instance for the third, fourth, eigth, thirtieth time.... if it's still a challenge, then you're doing the instance with only hunters that have no pets.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by damian7 why do you WANT great gear to be obtainable by farming a raid? there's no challenge in something you can farm. why do you want to have games that have no challenge, but reward you for wasting hundreds of hours in a single dungeon, going thru the same motions over and over for everyone to get the exact same gear....
why?
It's not what I want. I think it is a total waste of time, but I value things more than the best gear in game. But if that is the most tedious and hard thing to do, then I think that they should have it, not us. I would rather the best gear be obtainable through player crafting. Maybe take a lesson from another game that comes to mind where you get schematics as loot and those schematics are good for one set of armor, which is created by the crafters and that is the best loot in game. But it gives the adventuring types a reason to face challenging mobs (the schematics). The ones who loot the schematics get a cheaper set of best armor, because they only pay for the labor and armor, while casual players have to buy the schematics, which are not cheap, and the labor and armor. But that would only work where crafters is a class by themselves, not a skill on the side.
Or better yet, make the 3rd best armor able to be gotten by a long series of quests, like DAoC's Epic quest, and then the second best can be looted off of raid bosses that take no longer than 2 hours to do and needs no more than 2 full groups to beat. The first best could be a combonation of player crafted gear, which is then enchanted with abilities by another type of crafter. That would be the ideal solution and is implemented in DAoC. It works great.
those are great ideas, and things like that do exist in the games i enjoy.
if only UO would update their graphics engine...
i still say uo has a ton of things ingame that other games haven't even thought about trying.
i think wow is taking some steps in the right direction with their changes to BGs and slowly moving away from the huge raid instances. now, if they'd make crafting viable in the post-70 game. cuz if 60-70 is the same as 1-60, then people will be hitting 70 a month to six weeks after BC goes retail.
but, as i sit here playing whatever, reading, or watching tv, and i glance at the wife playing on her priest, rogue, whatever, and they're doing some raid.... she'll have vent on speaker (she doesn't like wearing headsets) and everyone just sounds bored. or they're bs'ing about stuff that happened at work today or whatever, while they're fighting the big bad raid boss.
i chat with these guys. it's not for fun, it's because it's what you have to do in order to progress in that game and they're either addicted, or they just are too lazy to start over in a new game from level 1 and work their way up. because it's too easy to send lots of gold and equipment to your alts when you already have a couple of lvl 60s.
but again, by kaplan's own numbers, less than one percent of the wow population engages in raids. yet, that's the focus of the post 60 game. so does that mean that only less than one percent of the wow population plays their toons post 60? does that mean that no one stays in the game post 60? or does that, by kaplan's own numbers, mean that the focus of most every patch, is only played by a very teeny tiny portion of the wow community?
they're making lots of changes, with more to come, in wow. it's not because they're keeping millions of customers satisfied. they're making changes because they're doing something wrong. or several somethings wrong.
i'm just off on a lot of tangents at this point.
if someone is playing for two years and still hasn't hit lvl 60, that's not casual play. casual, VERY casual play, gets you to 60 in (at the most) 6 months. 60 in two years means you either quit for most of that time, or you're paying a monthly sub for a very expensive chat client.
but again, some people do that. me, if i'm paying for a game, i'd want to experience what the game has to offer, instead of just having a pricey chat client.
but, maybe if enough people put things like what nthnaoun states in the above post, if they put stuff like that into the survey when they cancel wow... maybe we'll start seeing even more changes.
it's good that people don't just leave a game; but, instead they try to change it for the better.
one day the moronic fanbois will learn, maybe, that their endless worship does more harm to the game they worship than anything else. maybe, one day these mindless dolts will see that by critiquing a game, it can actually change and become much better and enjoyable. maybe, just maybe, one day... the fanboi idiots will realize that it's not the cool kids that do the coding, it's not people that have, and enjoy, a family and family life that have been making endless-hour-long raids... that it's actually turd burglars that the majority of the fanbois would not hang out with offline.
but whatever. OBVIOUSLY, people have been speaking with their money; BECAUSE wow is undergoing a LOT of changes, with a lot more to come. and if the money wasn't saying "YOU NEED TO MAKE CHANGES", then they would just keep on pumping out more and more raids and kaplan would still be yelling 'LEARN TO RAID NOOB' from the rooftops. but... i guess the money has spoken and raiding has come out to be the big LOSER.
quote how many millions of subs wow has, the money has spoken and it demands radical changes to the game.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by dadown Originally posted by nthnaoun ...
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
You obviously misunderstand some of the uses of scripting. Do you also think it is cheating for people to use the Key Bindings options to remap their keyboards? The whole point of macros and scripts is to customise your client to make the play less annoying and more fun. Just because you don't take the time to understand how to use them doesn't mean that you should deny it to others.
I play at least one character of each class and keeping track of who has what can be a real pain. So I use a script that tracks what each character has and lets me do a search for an item that I need. If you would rather take the time to log into each character and examine their inventory, that's fine, but prevent me from skipping that annoyance and don't call it cheating. I have another script that tracks items mailed between my characters that will notify me when an item is delivered. Sure I could write it down on a piece of paper and set a kitchen timer to ding when its delivered, by why not let the computer keep track of the mundane details like this instead of being a Ludite and opposing progress? How would using something like this be unfair to you?
PS. As macros and scripts are designed into the game, it IS how that game was designed to be played.
just a caveat on this thought. wow's ui was built so that addons/mods would be created and easily so. they even have an official wow forum for people to post their addons/mods and share them with the community. wow actively promotes the twinking of their ui and has made changes to their ui which incorporate features found in popular mods.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Damian Wrote: "people will be hitting 70 a month to six weeks after BC goes retail. "
People will hit 70 less than 36 hrs after release, probably even less than 24 hrs.
Still, I agree with most of what you say. I think Devs need to hear when subscribers are happy about a issues in a game. I also think that Devs need to hear when certain issues in a game need to be improved. What is important is the manner in which this communication is conducted.
Devs work long hours and devote extra time in every game in order to bring out the best game they can. I am sure each and every one of them appreciates a verbal pat on the back, a simple "hey guys, I really like what you did here!" Game developing is a labor of love for many devs. There are many other venues for programmers to work in. Many devs gravitate towards the gaming sector because they are avid gamers themselves, and they are actually doing what each and every one of us could do, putting their money where their mouths are. The least we can do is say thanks for the effort. HOWEVER! No game is perfect. As hard as devs work, they are not infallible. Also, a game has many many different devs, each with their own theories as to what is best for the game. Balance that against the marketing department, the CEO and financial departments, budgets etc, and there are going to be loads of areas for improvement.
I really feel pity for devs who pay attention to official forums.
On one hand there are rants and complaints about how devs are breaking the game, how they never listen to the paying consumers, how each and every ranter could develop a better game yada yada yada. On the other hand, you have rabid fanbois that jump down the throats of each negative poster, telling them to go play another game and how they have no lives yada yada yada, quickly descending from game issues into personal attacks.
Neither of these 2 types of post are useful at all to a game or to devs. For one thing, the people who post in an official forum are those who feel most strongly about the game. A VAST MAJORITY of game players never bother to post in any thread whatsoever. When it comes down to it, every minutes spent typing in a forum of any kind could be spent in-game. (currently I don't play any games ) When I have limited time, I tend to jump into the game and play, rather than "waste" time in a forum. However, many people spend more time on forums than they do in a game.
Fanbois see it as their bounden duty to attack and dismantle each negative comment and the poster, whether the OP has a valid point or not. Where does this help? Constructive criticism is a neccessary part of the creative process. Each and every game on the market or in development can be improved. The more people offering ideas, the better the chance of improvement.
Hater posters also do nothing to help the game, whether their comments contain validity or not. Who wants to read a post that runs along the lines of, "stupid devs can make a game. I could do better you id...!" I am constantly amazed at how many posts actually start out this way, sometimes even in the title. If I were a dev, I can guarrantee that upon seeing that, I would not bother to read the post, whether it had valid points to make or not. If I devoted as much time and effort into a game as Devs do, reading such a post really would not make me feel great, let alone inclined to read such an obnoxious post.
For some reason, many people feel that, since the internet is impersonal, and one can remain relatively anonymous behind a screen name, they have license to be as obnoxious as they can be. Secure in the knowledge that there can be no retaliation, they are happy to live in the illusion that they are the biggest, baddest people around. Threats of violence, though common, are totally void of any strength. I can tell you, a threat from some anonymous poster really is not that scary. Get over yourselves!
If both sides on a game ever truly wish to improve their game, the best way is a rational discussion/debate. A lot more can and will get done, improving the gaming experience for all.
Now on a lighter side, I figured I would post this link about a raid leader in WoW I find quite funny. I never raided with this person, but I have raided with similar in both EQ1, EQ2 and WoW.
why can't someone who's played UO for only 3 days critique reviews of mmo's or mmo's themselves? you make it sound like UO is THE standard. Does EQ not count? what about paper and dice rpg's? what about the FF series (though I'd even rip you for that), or any other console rpg? This site has how many games listed? 50? If i've played even 10 of those (excluding UO), compared to someone who's played only UO surely the prior is more knowledgable of MMORPGs than the latter. What about those that failed? Above and Beyond or whatever it was, AC2, SWG, etc...
I'll tell you what, I was playing RPG's on my puter before there was internet. That's right, BEFORE internet. I was flying around my ANSI text of a space ship in Galactic Empires when you nay-sayers were likely being weened off yer mother's milk. I can't even remember the names of the games it's been so long.
This is by far my most aggressive post, but nothing drives me crazier than some nub telling ANYONE whether they have the experience, knowledge, or whatever background necessary to critique another game. Just argue your point well, be articulate, site your sources or what you are comparing to. But don't put someone down cuz they haven't played your UO for 4 years.
One could argue it's how different WoW is from these classics that makes it such a success. Oh wait, that's what he did... guess the 5mill subscribers and one decent editorial showed you.
I'm not singling anyone out (notice I mentioned no names), but you know who you are.
Comments
Oh boy when I 1st started to play WoW in US Open Beta... Omg! I never saw a game like that... so much fun that it's almost unbelivable. For one week I played atleast 8h a day... And it's not like other games that you play 8h a day and your head hurts and your eyes hurt. No... It was just fun, fun, fun for 8h a day.
But that was it's own doom. Since I was soo hooked I played the game every possible moment. So very soon it got boring for me
But still I returned back every now and then for month or two. And if some good MMO don't come out soon I just might go back again.
You know, I find it interesting that the grinders are bashing a casual player's point of view. If I was to say I like to go to <insert your favorite theme park here> in order to go on a specific ride that is not a roller coaster, then the roller coaster fanatics bashed me, it would be a similar situation.
How dare you! How dare you tell me that I have to get to level 60 in 2 months in order to enjoy a game! How dare you tell me that soloing is NOT okay! How dare you tell me that the way I play is wrong! And again I say, How Dare You!
Now that I have that out, I will say that I have played this game since the original Beta as well. I have NO level 60 characters and I don't care. I recently got a second account so that I could stop contending with my minor child for play time and had to start all over. I chose a different class that I had not taken very far and have enjoyed moving up in that class for a change.
I played UO, EQ1, EQ2, DaoC, SWG and others and I will tell you now, WoW is IMHO, much more supportive of people like me that have a life outside of MMOs. I can log in for an hour or two and play without having to spend half that time looking for a group, that is, in itself, far above and beyond all the previously mentioned games.
So, for those of you that want to flame me for my PoV, go ahead, I don't care what you think anyway, cause you are not me and don't WANT to understand my PoV. I understand yours. But it is not mine. So, get a RL.
zguillotine
-=ZG=-
Amen to that Zg, it is this prevailing attitude that casual game play is somehow inferior to hardcore raiding that sets my teeth on edge. They have a lot of gall insisting that our play style is undeserving of the developers attention or that it should not be rewarded equally to raiding. Who the hell do they think they are anyway. I could give a rats ass about their play style. I have yet to ever come across a casual post that states that raiding and raiders should be removed from a game and yet almost evey single hardcore post states or implies that casuals are useless, unwanted, noobish and undeserving. Always accusing us of feeling entitled to game content, when in fact they are the ones who feel entitled to have things always go their way. Its a rare hardcore that can admit that other play styles are just as viable and deserving of being rewarded.
I call it the Brad McQuaid / Jeff Butler Syndrome. Play it the raider / hardcore way or hit the highway, because we're the best of the best and deserve the best and the rest can rot in hell.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Booooo to WoW
Praise GW!
Many players say the fun of WoW only begin after you reach 60. So (as a casual player) you spend 6 months of level grinding, then start to have fun? You need to pay over 75$, forced through painful grinds, only then the fun begin? And what's the point of playing a game that have no end?
And yet, we pay the same price for the game as they do. Hmmm, makes you think doesn't it.
zguillotine
-=ZG=-
I think that a person whom gets bored about Ultima Online in 3 days do not have criterium to judge a MMRPG.
I respect any opinion, but i think UO contents are way better than WoW contents. In fact i think wow has a huge contects lack, thats why I got bored of WoW in 3 months.
waiting long long time to connect, traveling all day long to get the next quest update and unbalanced PVP is what i remember about those WoW days.
In fact, I left WoW in 3 months and I have been playing EQ2 since then. (just the way around he did)
So, I do not agree at all with him.
A lot of people here seem to still have hostility to WoW and I can generally understand that as when you look around at this website and others like it, who are we the people who visit it? Generally more interested gamers, those who are really into the market behind just the game...
WoW is not the game built for the Hard Core, its the gate-way drug into a whole world of mmo's
I've dedicated most of my time to playing Eve Online for the last 3 years and a year of it was also spent in WoW, which imo are the two most opposite games as far as content and ease of play goes.. Eve being the hardest game to wrap yourself around and navigate, and WoW being the easiest! I've enjoyed it alot because when one got boring or frustrating the other was still there.
WoW is a great game for what it does. It's not here to please the hard-core most dedicated gamers in the mmo market, its the fun easy and enjoyable game you can just sit down and jump into for shits and giggles. Yes there is alot of great end-game content.. but still too easy for the truly hard-core. It's built for WoW players and it does offer something for everyone.
For everyone who still wants to complain about it and what not I simply ask this... stop and consider whether it's really the game for you, and think more about what it's doing for the market. Introducing mmo's to millions of people who might never have been interested. In the end I am going to say that WoW is most likely one of the largest reason other little mmo's like EVE have been doing better in the last few years, as more dedicated players are leaving WoW to explore the rest of the mmo market and making their way to other great games which many of us here love!
I agree. I always see people rushing to the endgame. It is probably those same people that complain on the forums and the same people that brag on the general channel about how they got to 60 in a week or 3 days playing time.
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
I agree with the person you are disagreeing with. Single player RPG's are made to solo in and they have better content. In MMORPG's you need to step out of your box and learn to socialize with people and make friends. That is how you guarantee yourself a spot in a group everytime you log in. Hell, people are quick to add a person to their friendslist in grouping MMO's when you know how to play your class and you are fun to play with.
Competing is a reasonable excuse to play a MMO even if you are a soloer, but if competing is your itch, then you are playing the wrong game. Guildwars is more of a competitive MMO, just as DAoC is. All it takes in WoW to win is good gear and a higher level. That's not really competing. Competing is when the playing field is even. In fact, FPS games with online capability is better for competing. However, if FPS isn't your thing, Guildwars is your best Fantasy competition game. It takes skill and team work to win in Guild Wars, unlike WoW.
You played DAoC? In what year? I started DAoC around 4 years ago and grouping was not hard to accomplish. If you spent half of 1-2 hours LFG, you are highly anti-social. Everyone grouped in DAoC and that is what I miss. I am 26, married, and a father. I have a life, but I still think that MMO's are for groups, not for soloers and while I understand why someone would want to solo, I will never understand why those same people would rather play a MMO solo when the content is sub-par to single player RPG's instead of playing single player RPG's.
Now, I am a casual gamer. I play 2-3 hours a day on most days. Sometimes more and sometimes less. I also play WoW currently, because it has a large community. I don't give a rats ass how fast I level. So when I log in, my priority is to find a group. I hardly ever do, because of people like you, who would rather solo. But if it took me 30 min to find a group and then I played with that group for an hour, it would have been worth it, because grouping is so much more fun than solo play.
Okay Vrazule, I am a casual gamer and I will tell you right now that 40-man raiders deserve better equipment than us, because they put more effort into the game than we do. Does it bother me that their gear is better than mine? No, it doesn't, because I know I worked hard for the gear I have. I am also a casual gamer who feels that solo play does not belong in an MMO. I believe that those that are spending a half hour finding a group are not trying hard enough, are anti-social, or are playing the wrong game to try and group in. WoW is a game designed for the soloer...at least until 60, with a splash of instance dungeons for groupers to get their feet wet in. So in WoW, it would take your a while to find a group. But in a grind game, like DAoC, if you are actively searching for a group, you will find one fairly quickly. But this is coming from someone who would group, even if it wasn't my quest that I was doing.
Then it has no bearing on your game play, but it does for those of us who want to get great gear without having to raid. Its all about different tastes. Tell me one thing, how would it be detrimental to a game, especially one that is casual from 1 to 55, to give the best rewards to all play styles? You people keep on with this risk vs reward crap. Excuse me, but what exactly do you risk in these games, especially in WoW where there is no real penalty for anything. Raiders invest large chunks of time in one sitting, casuals invest large chunks of time in many sittings, yet overall they spend very much the same amount of time in the game when all is said and done. There is abosultely nonthing to justify this gear gap between raiders and non-raiders, which is made even worse in a PvP game.
It has never been about risk vs reward, no matter how much devs prattle on about it. Its all about eliticism, epeen stroking and slowing down player progression with raiding mechanized time sinks. If people don't want to raid due to rewards being just as good solo or small group, then so what. All that tells me is that raiding isn't fun after all and actually has no other purpose than to deny segments of the player base content, give hardcores their epeenage and supposedly give players something to chew on in an end game that has no real content. Raiding is simply a mechanism to keep the hardcores occupied and to get them to stick around for as long as possible. Considering the casual draw of this game and the fact that we've hung around for two years begs one to wonder why they would choose hardcores over casuals. We outnumber you and we're just as loyal and are just as willing to spend money on a game as long as it caters to our play style from beginning to end.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
It is not fair for people who don't put in the same painstaking ours into raiding to get the same gear that they have. It is like saying that the janitor at work should get the same pay as the CEO, because he spends the same amount of hours at the building, but doesn't do all the hard work of running the company.
I am not one of those risk vrs reward people that you just tried to label me as. I am one of those people that says give people what they deserver according to the work they put into the game. As a father, I have a choice in whether or not I want to raid. Every adult has that choice. You can choose to spend less time with your family and raid for the great gear if you really want it, or you can spend more time with your family and be happy that your reward is in real life, while in game, your gear is not as great as those who invest their lives into the game. It is fair and you shouldn't complain about it. And casual players do not put the same hours into the game as hardcore players or they wouldn't be called casual players.
It is not fair for people who don't put in the same painstaking ours into raiding to get the same gear that they have. It is like saying that the janitor at work should get the same pay as the CEO, because he spends the same amount of hours at the building, but doesn't do all the hard work of running the company.
I am not one of those risk vrs reward people that you just tried to label me as. I am one of those people that says give people what they deserver according to the work they put into the game. As a father, I have a choice in whether or not I want to raid. Every adult has that choice. You can choose to spend less time with your family and raid for the great gear if you really want it, or you can spend more time with your family and be happy that your reward is in real life, while in game, your gear is not as great as those who invest their lives into the game. It is fair and you shouldn't complain about it. And casual players do not put the same hours into the game as hardcore players or they wouldn't be called casual players.
why do you WANT great gear to be obtainable by farming a raid? there's no challenge in something you can farm. why do you want to have games that have no challenge, but reward you for wasting hundreds of hours in a single dungeon, going thru the same motions over and over for everyone to get the exact same gear....
why?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It's not what I want. I think it is a total waste of time, but I value things more than the best gear in game. But if that is the most tedious and hard thing to do, then I think that they should have it, not us. I would rather the best gear be obtainable through player crafting. Maybe take a lesson from another game that comes to mind where you get schematics as loot and those schematics are good for one set of armor, which is created by the crafters and that is the best loot in game. But it gives the adventuring types a reason to face challenging mobs (the schematics). The ones who loot the schematics get a cheaper set of best armor, because they only pay for the labor and armor, while casual players have to buy the schematics, which are not cheap, and the labor and armor. But that would only work where crafters is a class by themselves, not a skill on the side.
Or better yet, make the 3rd best armor able to be gotten by a long series of quests, like DAoC's Epic quest, and then the second best can be looted off of raid bosses that take no longer than 2 hours to do and needs no more than 2 full groups to beat. The first best could be a combonation of player crafted gear, which is then enchanted with abilities by another type of crafter. That would be the ideal solution and is implemented in DAoC. It works great.
since when are WoW epic raids easy farm?
no challenge? how many can actually do Naxxramas? some guilds can't even beat onyxia/rag. if you have tried raiding, you'll know challenge never leaves the experience. it only takes one person to wipe the raid and ruin everything. gathering the right items/gear required to successfully do the raid is another challenge. still no challenge? how about getting 40people to come online? these are but few of the challenges...
maybe you've mastered the game.
i'm inviting you to go rediscover the real world. it's epic.
The same kind of challenge can be applied to solo and small group content. They don't do it because they're too lazy to come out with enough content to keep people around for years at a time, so they take the lazy way out by slowing people's progress with raids. These things are built specifically to waste time, no only in their implementation, but also in the fact that people have to do them repeatedly 100's of times before they get all the gear they can while competing with 39 other people.
The devs choose to make raiding more challenging, raids are not inherently more challenging in and of themselves. If that were the case, single player games would never present a challenge to its players. I believe that if developers spent as much time and energy creating challenging non-raid content as they do on actual raiding, they'd have a mega hit on their hands. I believe this is what will bring in mainstream to the MMO industry, it certainly works for console games.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
if something is FARMABLE, how is it challenging? how do you progress past MC to the next mind-numbingly boring raid instance? do you go out and gather the right items/gear from someplace OTHER than MC? no. you farm mc. you do mc week after week after week, until everyone in your guild that raids has all the class specific items from MC, then you move to the next one.
so, are you telling me that these people doing mc week after week are sitting there all hyped up and going "man, this is challenging. the mobs are never in the same locations, they've learned our tactics and are laying ambushes for us." OR, are they all calm and falling asleep and like 'ok, here's the next boss, who needs crap off him?'
guess you must not be playing wow. the things you mention aren't really much a problem for the raiding guilds. and if memory serves (or just watching the wife fall asleep playing her priest cuz well, yeah, the raiding is boring and she's just in there because they asked her to come along), you don't even need a whole 40 men to do them after a while.
so um, yeah, you're pretty much wrong on everything. raiding is NOT hard and challenging. MAYBE the first time or two someone does a raid, but after you're doing the same bloody raid instance for the third, fourth, eigth, thirtieth time.... if it's still a challenge, then you're doing the instance with only hunters that have no pets.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It's not what I want. I think it is a total waste of time, but I value things more than the best gear in game. But if that is the most tedious and hard thing to do, then I think that they should have it, not us. I would rather the best gear be obtainable through player crafting. Maybe take a lesson from another game that comes to mind where you get schematics as loot and those schematics are good for one set of armor, which is created by the crafters and that is the best loot in game. But it gives the adventuring types a reason to face challenging mobs (the schematics). The ones who loot the schematics get a cheaper set of best armor, because they only pay for the labor and armor, while casual players have to buy the schematics, which are not cheap, and the labor and armor. But that would only work where crafters is a class by themselves, not a skill on the side.
Or better yet, make the 3rd best armor able to be gotten by a long series of quests, like DAoC's Epic quest, and then the second best can be looted off of raid bosses that take no longer than 2 hours to do and needs no more than 2 full groups to beat. The first best could be a combonation of player crafted gear, which is then enchanted with abilities by another type of crafter. That would be the ideal solution and is implemented in DAoC. It works great.
those are great ideas, and things like that do exist in the games i enjoy.
if only UO would update their graphics engine...
i still say uo has a ton of things ingame that other games haven't even thought about trying.
i think wow is taking some steps in the right direction with their changes to BGs and slowly moving away from the huge raid instances. now, if they'd make crafting viable in the post-70 game. cuz if 60-70 is the same as 1-60, then people will be hitting 70 a month to six weeks after BC goes retail.
but, as i sit here playing whatever, reading, or watching tv, and i glance at the wife playing on her priest, rogue, whatever, and they're doing some raid.... she'll have vent on speaker (she doesn't like wearing headsets) and everyone just sounds bored. or they're bs'ing about stuff that happened at work today or whatever, while they're fighting the big bad raid boss.
i chat with these guys. it's not for fun, it's because it's what you have to do in order to progress in that game and they're either addicted, or they just are too lazy to start over in a new game from level 1 and work their way up. because it's too easy to send lots of gold and equipment to your alts when you already have a couple of lvl 60s.
but again, by kaplan's own numbers, less than one percent of the wow population engages in raids. yet, that's the focus of the post 60 game. so does that mean that only less than one percent of the wow population plays their toons post 60? does that mean that no one stays in the game post 60? or does that, by kaplan's own numbers, mean that the focus of most every patch, is only played by a very teeny tiny portion of the wow community?
they're making lots of changes, with more to come, in wow. it's not because they're keeping millions of customers satisfied. they're making changes because they're doing something wrong. or several somethings wrong.
i'm just off on a lot of tangents at this point.
if someone is playing for two years and still hasn't hit lvl 60, that's not casual play. casual, VERY casual play, gets you to 60 in (at the most) 6 months. 60 in two years means you either quit for most of that time, or you're paying a monthly sub for a very expensive chat client.
but again, some people do that. me, if i'm paying for a game, i'd want to experience what the game has to offer, instead of just having a pricey chat client.
but, maybe if enough people put things like what nthnaoun states in the above post, if they put stuff like that into the survey when they cancel wow... maybe we'll start seeing even more changes.
it's good that people don't just leave a game; but, instead they try to change it for the better.
one day the moronic fanbois will learn, maybe, that their endless worship does more harm to the game they worship than anything else. maybe, one day these mindless dolts will see that by critiquing a game, it can actually change and become much better and enjoyable. maybe, just maybe, one day... the fanboi idiots will realize that it's not the cool kids that do the coding, it's not people that have, and enjoy, a family and family life that have been making endless-hour-long raids... that it's actually turd burglars that the majority of the fanbois would not hang out with offline.
but whatever. OBVIOUSLY, people have been speaking with their money; BECAUSE wow is undergoing a LOT of changes, with a lot more to come. and if the money wasn't saying "YOU NEED TO MAKE CHANGES", then they would just keep on pumping out more and more raids and kaplan would still be yelling 'LEARN TO RAID NOOB' from the rooftops. but... i guess the money has spoken and raiding has come out to be the big LOSER.
quote how many millions of subs wow has, the money has spoken and it demands radical changes to the game.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
But I disagree with the macro and scripts. I was first introduced to those kind of scripts in SWG. I never bothered to try to learn them because I feel it is cheating. I feel that if you cannot be bothered to play the game the way it was designed to and you must rely on a script to play the game for you or to use scripts to take shortcuts in the game (such as a script that keeps you buffed so you don't forget) you shouldn't be playing it. People who use those scripts should understand that it creates an unfair playing field, because many people do not know how to use scripts.
just a caveat on this thought. wow's ui was built so that addons/mods would be created and easily so. they even have an official wow forum for people to post their addons/mods and share them with the community. wow actively promotes the twinking of their ui and has made changes to their ui which incorporate features found in popular mods.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Damian Wrote: "people will be hitting 70 a month to six weeks after BC goes retail. "
People will hit 70 less than 36 hrs after release, probably even less than 24 hrs.
Still, I agree with most of what you say. I think Devs need to hear when subscribers are happy about a issues in a game. I also think that Devs need to hear when certain issues in a game need to be improved. What is important is the manner in which this communication is conducted.
Devs work long hours and devote extra time in every game in order to bring out the best game they can. I am sure each and every one of them appreciates a verbal pat on the back, a simple "hey guys, I really like what you did here!" Game developing is a labor of love for many devs. There are many other venues for programmers to work in. Many devs gravitate towards the gaming sector because they are avid gamers themselves, and they are actually doing what each and every one of us could do, putting their money where their mouths are. The least we can do is say thanks for the effort. HOWEVER! No game is perfect. As hard as devs work, they are not infallible. Also, a game has many many different devs, each with their own theories as to what is best for the game. Balance that against the marketing department, the CEO and financial departments, budgets etc, and there are going to be loads of areas for improvement.
I really feel pity for devs who pay attention to official forums.
On one hand there are rants and complaints about how devs are breaking the game, how they never listen to the paying consumers, how each and every ranter could develop a better game yada yada yada. On the other hand, you have rabid fanbois that jump down the throats of each negative poster, telling them to go play another game and how they have no lives yada yada yada, quickly descending from game issues into personal attacks.
Neither of these 2 types of post are useful at all to a game or to devs. For one thing, the people who post in an official forum are those who feel most strongly about the game. A VAST MAJORITY of game players never bother to post in any thread whatsoever. When it comes down to it, every minutes spent typing in a forum of any kind could be spent in-game. (currently I don't play any games
) When I have limited time, I tend to jump into the game and play, rather than "waste" time in a forum. However, many people spend more time on forums than they do in a game.
Fanbois see it as their bounden duty to attack and dismantle each negative comment and the poster, whether the OP has a valid point or not. Where does this help? Constructive criticism is a neccessary part of the creative process. Each and every game on the market or in development can be improved. The more people offering ideas, the better the chance of improvement.
Hater posters also do nothing to help the game, whether their comments contain validity or not. Who wants to read a post that runs along the lines of, "stupid devs can make a game. I could do better you id...!" I am constantly amazed at how many posts actually start out this way, sometimes even in the title. If I were a dev, I can guarrantee that upon seeing that, I would not bother to read the post, whether it had valid points to make or not. If I devoted as much time and effort into a game as Devs do, reading such a post really would not make me feel great, let alone inclined to read such an obnoxious post.
For some reason, many people feel that, since the internet is impersonal, and one can remain relatively anonymous behind a screen name, they have license to be as obnoxious as they can be. Secure in the knowledge that there can be no retaliation, they are happy to live in the illusion that they are the biggest, baddest people around. Threats of violence, though common, are totally void of any strength. I can tell you, a threat from some anonymous poster really is not that scary. Get over yourselves!
If both sides on a game ever truly wish to improve their game, the best way is a rational discussion/debate. A lot more can and will get done, improving the gaming experience for all.
Now on a lighter side, I figured I would post this link about a raid leader in WoW I find quite funny. I never raided with this person, but I have raided with similar in both EQ1, EQ2 and WoW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0AB6xAtMg
I'll tell you what, I was playing RPG's on my puter before there was internet. That's right, BEFORE internet. I was flying around my ANSI text of a space ship in Galactic Empires when you nay-sayers were likely being weened off yer mother's milk. I can't even remember the names of the games it's been so long.
This is by far my most aggressive post, but nothing drives me crazier than some nub telling ANYONE whether they have the experience, knowledge, or whatever background necessary to critique another game. Just argue your point well, be articulate, site your sources or what you are comparing to. But don't put someone down cuz they haven't played your UO for 4 years.
One could argue it's how different WoW is from these classics that makes it such a success. Oh wait, that's what he did... guess the 5mill subscribers and one decent editorial showed you.
I'm not singling anyone out (notice I mentioned no names), but you know who you are.