keep hope alive boojiboy! i wish my glasses were as rose colored as yours.
Well, I've tried so many MMORPGs and have been repeatedly disappointed. I've stuck through the tough times with Vanguard and am now having as much fun as I did in the early years of EQ. Sure, part of the positive attitude comes from seeing the before and after state of this game... but it's also a shared viewpoint of many folks that are really having a good time in Vanguard.
Vanguard might well lose a good chunk of its PvP crowd when AoC comes out, particularly since the devs have admitted that they're not even looking at any PvP issues at the moment and won't for the foreseeable future. And they might lose more PvP'ers when WAR finally launches, but otherwise VG is in the same boat as MxO, Planetside, and the other games in the SOE stable-- it's got a mostly loyal playerbase that aren't leaving because they've made friends in the game, and it meets their standards for a fun game.
Vanguard's not so much a dying game as it is one that is finally settling into its niche. Like any other MMO, it will gain and lose players, but since SOE don't have a track record of shutting down games, it will survive and float along on its merry way.
Moreover, despite your assertion that GU5 is nowhere in site even though it's front page news on VGplayers and is also on test.... GU6 looks pretty darn good too... Maybe June/July.
High Probability
Character Customization Isle of Dawn - Free Trial package for interested non-subscribers for levels 1-10 Racial Weapons, Armor and Fun items Class Revamp - Cleric, Shaman, Disciples, Rangers Raid Dungeon Fishing Galleons - If it doesn't make GU5 Default Graphic User Interface Upgrade - If it doesn't make GU5.
Point here is, a dying game just doesn't get the type of attention and investment that Vanguard is receiving.
Please show me any scrap of evidence to support the notion that a brand new raid dungeon (and i mean dungeon, not some overland rubbish mob) is being worked on. APW was being focus tested for MONTHS by guilds like Pain and BoW before it went live, and it was being chatted about for months before the testing started.
And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
Vanguard might well lose a good chunk of its PvP crowd when AoC comes out, particularly since the devs have admitted that they're not even looking at any PvP issues at the moment and won't for the foreseeable future. And they might lose more PvP'ers when WAR finally launches, but otherwise VG is in the same boat as MxO, Planetside, and the other games in the SOE stable-- it's got a mostly loyal playerbase that aren't leaving because they've made friends in the game, and it meets their standards for a fun game. Vanguard's not so much a dying game as it is one that is finally settling into its niche. Like any other MMO, it will gain and lose players, but since SOE don't have a track record of shutting down games, it will survive and float along on its merry way.
Vanguard might well lose a good chunk of its PvP crowd when AoC comes out, particularly since the devs have admitted that they're not even looking at any PvP issues at the moment and won't for the foreseeable future. And they might lose more PvP'ers when WAR finally launches, but otherwise VG is in the same boat as MxO, Planetside, and the other games in the SOE stable-- it's got a mostly loyal playerbase that aren't leaving because they've made friends in the game, and it meets their standards for a fun game. Vanguard's not so much a dying game as it is one that is finally settling into its niche. Like any other MMO, it will gain and lose players, but since SOE don't have a track record of shutting down games, it will survive and float along on its merry way.
I think a lot of people that are really into PvP will try out AoC. In fact a majority of people that enjoy MMORPG will give AoC a shot. AoC will have to deliver a heck of a lot more than just PvP though. We shall see what AoC has got when its released. I will bet there will be some issues - there always is when a game is released.
I think it is a misstatement saying the developers are not even looking at PvP. Here is the latest post from Silius on the subject:
Bascially they are still working on class balancing and this effort will improve the PvP game. Once that is accomplished the PvP development effort will re-evaluated.
I read Silius' post as saying : We are balancing DPS, and that if that happens to iron out some PvP stuff well cool but if not we'll think about it later"
Which I think is a good use of limited resources. VG's selling point is a top quality PvE experience, I really don't think it would be clever to try and compete in the PvP space against AoC and WAR. Imo the battle for PvPers cannot be won by VG, but the PvE content is unique and deep and provides a higher marginal return on Dev time.
Moreover, despite your assertion that GU5 is nowhere in site even though it's front page news on VGplayers and is also on test.... GU6 looks pretty darn good too... Maybe June/July.
High Probability
Character Customization Isle of Dawn - Free Trial package for interested non-subscribers for levels 1-10 Racial Weapons, Armor and Fun items Class Revamp - Cleric, Shaman, Disciples, Rangers Raid Dungeon Fishing Galleons - If it doesn't make GU5 Default Graphic User Interface Upgrade - If it doesn't make GU5.
Point here is, a dying game just doesn't get the type of attention and investment that Vanguard is receiving.
I thought that the "Isle of Dawn" was originally supposed to be in GU4, and was going to be live by now. I thought this was a key prerequisite for the free trial and relaunch originally proposed to happen by the end of 2007. Now it is a hypothetical item to be in GU6. This suggests to me that there really aren't the resources available to turn things around in the near future.
Oh, and if anyone is spending time on developing fishing, there really is a prioritization problem.
Moreover, despite your assertion that GU5 is nowhere in site even though it's front page news on VGplayers and is also on test.... GU6 looks pretty darn good too... Maybe June/July.
High Probability
Character Customization Isle of Dawn - Free Trial package for interested non-subscribers for levels 1-10 Racial Weapons, Armor and Fun items Class Revamp - Cleric, Shaman, Disciples, Rangers Raid Dungeon Fishing Galleons - If it doesn't make GU5 Default Graphic User Interface Upgrade - If it doesn't make GU5.
Point here is, a dying game just doesn't get the type of attention and investment that Vanguard is receiving.
Please show me any scrap of evidence to support the notion that a brand new raid dungeon (and i mean dungeon, not some overland rubbish mob) is being worked on. APW was being focus tested for MONTHS by guilds like Pain and BoW before it went live, and it was being chatted about for months before the testing started.
And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
The has been a lot of chatter, and for awhile now. Avarem recently stated on one of the New Raid Dungeon Threads:
"The next raid dungeon won't be Stiirhad (although yes, Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon), but it also won't be the 'RI remake'. It will be a dungeon that has yet to be seen by the general public. I won't say any more for now, but I think a handful of people did get summoned inside for the end of beta event, so there might be a few screenshots floating around."
So they are working on it, but won't tell people where it is. Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon, but it's not the NEXT raid dungeon. The devs discussed it some in their chat (looking for it now - also looking for those screen-shots). So as far as what it will be, is still speculation, but one of the prominent 'theories' is that is the raid content only accessed via a Galleon.
So, it's clear it is in the works. What is not clear is exactly when.
By the way, Stiirhad reminds me ALOT of Veeshan's Peak. When converted to a Raid dungeon, that will be an absolutely incredible experience.
Nooo, Seem's like SOE are finally giving up on Vanguard. After purchasing it and promising so much, as usual, a strong wiff of Smeds bullshi.. Game update 5 is nowhere in sight, with no communication as to when or even if it may come out. Dev team laid off, virtually no one left working on it, maybe with the exception of Silius, the useless pratt that can only cut content with a vague promise of replacing it years down the line.....maybe. All such a shame, the game world was beautiful, good combat, great character customization ( till Silius got rid of it). If Sony had fixed the bugs and broken quests, finished the content and polished it, they would have had a solid MMO. It didnt sell 200k boxes for nothing. But they let Silius run rampage to try and make a WOW clone on the cheap, get rid of the depth and anything u might need to think about.. Now they have just about given up on it., population is draining away despite what remains of the once loyal fanbase, Sad really. Yes.. i'm sure the die hards will flame me and tell us its going strong and growing. Thats why its down to 4 servers and they are low pop. Shame on you Sony... soon you will be irrelevant as an online entertainment provider. Your product is dated with little attempt at investment in improvement, the flagship EQ2 is well and truly showing its age.. Perhaps its time for Smed to move on.
The diehard fans on the one RP server will say, "hey, I log on my level 50 and see plenty of other level 50's so the game must be healthy." But that's like false hope in a leper colony.
Moreover, despite your assertion that GU5 is nowhere in site even though it's front page news on VGplayers and is also on test.... GU6 looks pretty darn good too... Maybe June/July.
High Probability
Character Customization Isle of Dawn - Free Trial package for interested non-subscribers for levels 1-10 Racial Weapons, Armor and Fun items Class Revamp - Cleric, Shaman, Disciples, Rangers Raid Dungeon Fishing Galleons - If it doesn't make GU5 Default Graphic User Interface Upgrade - If it doesn't make GU5.
Point here is, a dying game just doesn't get the type of attention and investment that Vanguard is receiving.
Please show me any scrap of evidence to support the notion that a brand new raid dungeon (and i mean dungeon, not some overland rubbish mob) is being worked on. APW was being focus tested for MONTHS by guilds like Pain and BoW before it went live, and it was being chatted about for months before the testing started.
And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
The has been a lot of chatter, and for awhile now. Avarem recently stated on one of the New Raid Dungeon Threads:
"The next raid dungeon won't be Stiirhad (although yes, Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon), but it also won't be the 'RI remake'. It will be a dungeon that has yet to be seen by the general public. I won't say any more for now, but I think a handful of people did get summoned inside for the end of beta event, so there might be a few screenshots floating around."
So they are working on it, but won't tell people where it is. Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon, but it's not the NEXT raid dungeon. The devs discussed it some in their chat (looking for it now - also looking for those screen-shots). So as far as what it will be, is still speculation, but one of the prominent 'theories' is that is the raid content only accessed via a Galleon.
So, it's clear it is in the works. What is not clear is exactly when.
By the way, Stiirhad reminds me ALOT of Veeshan's Peak. When converted to a Raid dungeon, that will be an absolutely incredible experience.
kk, i found the post you were referring to. But how did you figure this new raid dungeon was a High Probability to make it into GU6, or even being worked on in earnest? To me that post says 'We have written down on a piece of paper where we plan to make the next raid dungeon', and they have decided it won't be Stiirhad. There was sooo much preperation and information released as APW was being worked on, my honest feeling is that the next dungeon wont hit live this year.
Beyond what is formally announced, like GU5, admittedly it's always speculation from various threads, developer posts, developer chats, beta-testers etc. However, I've watched each and every Game Update closely, and the 'predictions' are always pretty darn close with the exception of the Free Trial Island. For example, the developer working on fishing has strongly alluded to GU6, but never committed etc. So yes, it's piecing together information.
That said, August might be optimistic, but they have been working on it awhile, in fact, immediately after APW went live. APW was the biggest challenge as it was the first, the raid dynamics, mechanics had to be hammered out, the raid size all that stuff. Going forward, I think we can expect to see quicker development and go-lives with the planned raid dungeons.
Come on, AoC is cominag and WAR, this game is completely finished. SOE is preparing to pull the plug, and why would SOE keep a game that competes with EQ2? It has NO chance of stealing WoWs extremely intelligent and savy player base. We know better than play a turd that has no decent PvP, just moronic mobs that wait while 72+ people gather, buff, and use the same old sad tactics of tank, healing wheel, and DPS classes.
Come on, AoC is cominag and WAR, this game is completely finished. SOE is preparing to pull the plug, and why would SOE keep a game that competes with EQ2? It has NO chance of stealing WoWs extremely intelligent and savy player base. We know better than play a turd that has no decent PvP, just moronic mobs that wait while 72+ people gather, buff, and use the same old sad tactics of tank, healing wheel, and DPS classes.
You think AOC will be use another tank healing dps tactic?
As far from WoW as you get?? Maybe it WAS, back when it had potential, and Sigil still ran it. The very second SOE got their hands on it the patches came slower and slower until there were 4 month waits for each patch. That's pretty terrible. Then EE system got scraped for no reason other than it was "complicated", sound like anything? Then everything was BOP and level requirments added to items. Oh good, more restrictions. Then, I read THIS maelstrom of garbage and uninstalled for good. http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=21665
This game was so amazing when I started playing it, amazing classes, the world was beautiful and there were no instances! It had such depth and adventure and mystery, the combat was pretty fun. It took my back to my Dark Age of Camelot days. I'm sad to see it go the path of SWG and all those other once good games before big companies tried to play "follow the retarded toddler".
Come on, AoC is cominag and WAR, this game is completely finished. SOE is preparing to pull the plug, and why would SOE keep a game that competes with EQ2? It has NO chance of stealing WoWs extremely intelligent and savy player base. We know better than play a turd that has no decent PvP, just moronic mobs that wait while 72+ people gather, buff, and use the same old sad tactics of tank, healing wheel, and DPS classes.
Between AoC and WAR, it's probably a safe bet that Vanguard will end up ditching PvP since it's not a priority for the devs, it's their least populated server by a wide margin, and a good chunk of their players on Sartok could end up leaving especially if they find the PvP satisfying in AoC or WAR.
The rest is just an exercise in patience. SOE still keeps MxO and Planetside servers up and running, so there's no chance of Vanguard being shut down at all. The only question is how long players are willing to wait for any changes they are wanting to see. If they're impatient or they get irritated with the devs, they'll leave. If they're willing to put up with what they don't like in order to play with their friends and guildies until those changes go live, then they'll stay. Period.
There is no question about vanguard being around for a long time. Of all the SoE games it is the one that has the most advanced and open capabilities. Frankly it is the only one that is in the same league as games like ago of conan or warhammer. With the right resources and added polish and development Vanguard could easily be the top PvE based MMORPG on the market. And they could even make it a decent PvP game as well. Certainly the scope and potential of Vanguard beats any game on the market today. It's just poorly implemented, buggy and lacks polish and quality. But none the less it has a solid framework and if they can fix the performance issues it might have a very solid foundation to build from.
Really all the is open is to see if soe recognizes this fact and dumps the resources into it to really push it to the point where it can actually compete with AoC or Warhammer or whatever other game comes out. Or will they continue to put resources into EQ and EQ2 trying to hold on to that customer base while letting Vanguard move along slowly on little more the life support.
Really all the is open is to see if soe recognizes this fact and dumps the resources into it to really push it to the point where it can actually compete with AoC or Warhammer or whatever other game comes out. Or will they continue to put resources into EQ and EQ2 trying to hold on to that customer base while letting Vanguard move along slowly on little more the life support.
If they haven't committed a large number of resources by now, what are the chances of them doing it in the future? I'm not saying that SOE will completely ignore Vanguard, but if it's not a priority now, then it's unlikely that it will be a priority in the future. It will still get content updates and new features, but beyond that, what do players have to look forward to in the coming years?
With SOE turning their attention towards their newer MMO properties like The Agency and their flagship EverQuest games, the real test of whether VG is going to get any significant attention from SOE will be if they ever expand the team by any noticeable scale and/or announce an expansion pack. If neither of those comes to pass in the next year as WAR and AoC hit the market, then I'd place VG firmly in the same MxO/Planetside boat of games that are strictly on life support and nothing more.
I think a lot depends on how VG does in the coming months as they fix various bugs and launch the trial island. I think if they see continued growth in the player base they might put more resources into it.
Frankly I think SoE will be in trouble if they don't.
EQ is aging and I really can't see them gaining new players
EQ2 is about as good as it is going to get but it is limited by a bad engine design that would need to be completely overhauled. It has also passed it technical peak and just won't be able to compete with games coming out this year it will look really dated.
SWG, Matrix, and planetscape are all on lifesupport mostly and again I don't see any growth just slow attrit
The Agency is all I really see coming soon and the agency isn't gonna score big it is a niche game that will be lucky to break 100k.
Vanguard is fundamentally a good game with a lot of good things going for it. It is also a huge game with lots of room for growth and improvement. Vanguard did sell 200k based on what people thought it would be and what it still could be. If they announced a real plan for Vanguard to revamp areas, clean up many starting area, and quest lines, and fill in some of the voids and then added some more raid and announced a relaunch or expansion and even charged something for it with some marketing push they could definitely compete with other games on the market now.
But as you say maybe they are too stupid, maybe they can marshal the resources to buy the game but not make it successfully, or maybe I'm just stupid and the game is totally crap and SoE are the smart ones... I guess it is easy to throw stones when you don't have to pay the bills :P
I think a lot depends on how VG does in the coming months as they fix various bugs and launch the trial island. I think if they see continued growth in the player base they might put more resources into it. Frankly I think SoE will be in trouble if they don't.
Let's see how well the hitching fix in GU5 works. If it works can we speculate that the existing resources will be moved towards fixing other things.
On test server now you will see hitches still, not the initial bigger hitching, the hitching is smaller but spread more over time. A thing that I can't recall from live even though I play is that the quality on ground textures scales more when you close in on them, maybe they do on live already but I can't remember the same behaviour. Maybe you should check it out yourself and see what I am meaning. The other things is that objects are not loaded all at the same time, while it have been popping up earlier aswell, they pop up around the same time now but they are supposedly not loaded at the same time. Again if I have gotten the right impression.
This could be just a big performance fix as the performance increases done the first months after release.
Currently there are alot of issues with the test servers but assumingly they will be fixed.
But anyway, if it works one can hope they won't use up as much resources on fixing performance in the future.
I think a lot depends on how VG does in the coming months as they fix various bugs and launch the trial island. I think if they see continued growth in the player base they might put more resources into it.
It's possible that they'll gain some new players when the trial island finally goes in. I don't see why they wouldn't. Still, I don't see their growth being all that large percentage-wise given that VG is already over a year old now, and there are plenty of other games on the horizon, or which are doing well now.
Frankly I think SoE will be in trouble if they don't.
I'm not so sure.
They've said publicly that they're going to start moving away from the subscription-based model for their games and towards more downloadable content and micro-transactions. With all the work they're doing for the PS3 and a game like The Agency, I think those moves are much closer than we might realize, and Sony won't mind taking a loss on their sub-based MMO's as long as their newer games bring in real money via DLC and RMT-based transactions.
EQ is aging and I really can't see them gaining new players
True. It's almost 10 years old, and the chances of a large number of new players joining that game are pretty much nil. They've got their loyal players, and that's pretty much it.
EQ2 is about as good as it is going to get but it is limited by a bad engine design that would need to be completely overhauled. It has also passed it technical peak and just won't be able to compete with games coming out this year it will look really dated.
It's not a bad game, but it had a crap launch and it took many years and several expansions for them to finally get it right. They'll get some players due to their free trials and because it offers an updated, faster version of EQ, but it probably won't grow much from where it's at now.
SWG, Matrix, and planetscape are all on lifesupport mostly and again I don't see any growth just slow attrition.
True again. All of those games are dead in the water and will never grow. They're solely filler to beef up the perceived value of the Station Pass.
The Agency is all I really see coming soon and the agency isn't gonna score big it is a niche game that will be lucky to break 100k.
If you're placing The Agency in the traditional subscription model, you'd be on the right track. However, Sony said that they're going to aim for a non-traditional business model for the game to lower the entry barrier for a console audience, since The Agency will also be on the PS3 as well as the PC.
100,000 people who are paying real money for downloadable weapons and gear could conceivably bring in more money than just a straight subscription model.
Vanguard is fundamentally a good game with a lot of good things going for it. It is also a huge game with lots of room for growth and improvement. Vanguard did sell 200k based on what people thought it would be and what it still could be. If they announced a real plan for Vanguard to revamp areas, clean up many starting area, and quest lines, and fill in some of the voids and then added some more raid and announced a relaunch or expansion and even charged something for it with some marketing push they could definitely compete with other games on the market now.
The biggest problem that Vanguard is facing, apart from its clear lack of development resources, is the bad reputation that it already has in the market. Just look at the forums for games like AoC and WAR-- the biggest fear from some folks following those games is that they'll end up being "another Vanguard". That's NOT meant as a compliment.
It's not a small hurdle for VG, either. VG's already seen as damaged goods, so the chances of a massive boost in subs even after all those added resources is unlikely.
Of the 200k who bought Vanguard, most of them have quit and have likely found other MMO's to satisfy their gaming needs. A few might give the game another look if a free trial ever came out, but I don't see VG growing significantly over its current niche. It will gain some, and it will lose some, but it won't expand much more than its current playerbase, IMO.
But as you say maybe they are too stupid, maybe they can marshal the resources to buy the game but not make it successfully, or maybe I'm just stupid and the game is totally crap and SoE are the smart ones... I guess it is easy to throw stones when you don't have to pay the bills :P
I don't know who's right, really. And you're not wrong to enjoy the game. If it's fun for you, no one else's opinion matters.
However, with SOE now directly under the Sony Computer Entertainment umbrella, and with Sony reorganizing their gaming division, I sense that more attention will be paid to the games that are more recognizable (i.e., the EverQuest games, just because of the name brand) and to their newer properties like The Agency. I think it's entirely possible that their newer emphasis on restructuring and retooling their online apporach will leave a game like VG as Station Pass filler along with MxO and Planetside rather than as one that they'll really push.
Of course, I could be wildly off the mark and SOE will prove me wrong. We'll just have to wait and see.
I think a lot depends on how VG does in the coming months as they fix various bugs and launch the trial island. I think if they see continued growth in the player base they might put more resources into it. Frankly I think SoE will be in trouble if they don't.
Let's see how well the hitching fix in GU5 works. If it works can we speculate that the existing resources will be moved towards fixing other things.
On test server now you will see hitches still, not the initial bigger hitching, the hitching is smaller but spread more over time. A thing that I can't recall from live even though I play is that the quality on ground textures scales more when you close in on them, maybe they do on live already but I can't remember the same behaviour. Maybe you should check it out yourself and see what I am meaning. The other things is that objects are not loaded all at the same time, while it have been popping up earlier aswell, they pop up around the same time now but they are supposedly not loaded at the same time. Again if I have gotten the right impression.
This could be just a big performance fix as the performance increases done the first months after release.
Currently there are alot of issues with the test servers but assumingly they will be fixed.
But anyway, if it works one can hope they won't use up as much resources on fixing performance in the future.
I just got done playing on test with several characters. Some people are having graphical issues but I guess I'm a lucky one for me everything was fine. I'm playing on the highest quality settings with all the bells and whistles turned on. I started in tursh where I started looking for the citizen registar so I did a lot of running around in and out of buildings. I did still have some hitching but it was much shorter bouts and seemed to clear up even faster. Once i'd go in a building or two I was hitch free for the entire time I was running around looking in and out of buildings.
I then ran to Rindol and as I ran through the field of brownies I had one hitch and then entering rindol I had 3 hitchs. All smaller then on live. After that Rindol was hitch free for me.
I then logged a character into Kahl where I started outside. I ran through the hall where the rogue trainer is located. The process of going to the hall and running through it and out the other side all had some hitching. The hitching here was worse then in tursh. But it wasn't as bad as live. Once i'd ran through the bar area to the inner harbor most of the hitching was gone. I ran into the bank area next and got a couple little hitches there. After that I ran all around the harbor in all the buildings without any hitching at all.
So I think GU5 is taking a good step in the right direction. They say this is only the first set of changes and there are more that will make it even better. If they can squeeze even more out hitching for Vanguard will become a non-issue. This is one of the best things I thing they have done for the game. With hitching gone what remains is a solid game that needs more content and more polish and debugging of existing content. Not a bad situation. Like I've said I think the tame is technically good and if it's just a matter of building out content and cleaning up the existing content I think it's in a very good position to move forward.
For me I'm currently playing eq2. Even though the graphic engine is crap the game has a lot of good content that makes it fun and interesting.
The next game for me is Age of Conan. I played in the initial pvp beta and thought the game was pretty good. I'm a little concerned with how cagey funcom is being with the beta with lots of strong limitations on what testers can see or do. My fear is that Age of Conan will release with major bugs and gameplay issues. I'm hoping that doesn't happen
I'm still watching Vanguard and playing off and on because I still think Vanguard has the potential to be a great game. But I'm not able to get into it enough to get into raiding and the quest area or doing the factioning for swamp armor just isn't something I want to take on. I did all the wardship factioning and have a full set of wardship armor. When I got to the swamp it was, oh know not again... :P
So in a few months after gu6 or whatever and after AoC has been out I'll likely go back to Vanguard when AoC is revealed to be too buggy or when I get tired of it. Warhammer being heavily PvP oriented isn't really interesting and I've not been following it and have no plans to play it.
Really all the is open is to see if soe recognizes this fact and dumps the resources into it to really push it to the point where it can actually compete with AoC or Warhammer or whatever other game comes out. Or will they continue to put resources into EQ and EQ2 trying to hold on to that customer base while letting Vanguard move along slowly on little more the life support.
If they haven't committed a large number of resources by now, what are the chances of them doing it in the future? I'm not saying that SOE will completely ignore Vanguard, but if it's not a priority now, then it's unlikely that it will be a priority in the future. It will still get content updates and new features, but beyond that, what do players have to look forward to in the coming years?
With SOE turning their attention towards their newer MMO properties like The Agency and their flagship EverQuest games, the real test of whether VG is going to get any significant attention from SOE will be if they ever expand the team by any noticeable scale and/or announce an expansion pack. If neither of those comes to pass in the next year as WAR and AoC hit the market, then I'd place VG firmly in the same MxO/Planetside boat of games that are strictly on life support and nothing more.
Agreed, SOE have had more than enough opportunities to justify putting ANY resources into Vanguard since it took over the running and developement of the game post-launch.
Its obvious that they would rather the Vanguard team pull themselves "out of the mire" rather than help them. It's such a shame, it really it. With that said, SOE have a track record of keeping even the most terminally ill games afloat. So I agree that Vanguard ain't going to be shut down anytime soon. Sure the fanbase and the devs will try valiantly to keep interest in the game. But there's only so much they can do.
SOE are developing a track record for not throwing a lot of money at games. They're not even aiming for any one game to be a WOW beater. Why bother? After all, if you have 10 mediocre MMO's in your portfolio which people swap between at will, then this is better than just having 1 MMO which results in people canceling their account and starting give their money to another company when they get bored. SOE aren't stupid. Whether you play Vanguard, EQ2, SWG...SOE still gets their money. If you hate the direction of development of one game and jump to another.....SOE still gets their money.
What SOE don't realise is that perhaps trying to STOP people from jumping ship on their MMO's may be a better idea than hoping people will just leapfrog from one SOE title to another.
In short, Vanguard is SOE's equivalent of a "red-headed step child". SOE aren't that keen on it but still has the morals not to bag it and throw it in the river. It really is a shame. Vanguard could have been so much better had SOE actually dug into their resources and helped out.
To me it always seemed like SOE saved Vanguard simply because they were it's publisher, and one specific importance of Vanguard was the fact it was pretty much the justification behind raising Station Access prices mere months before Sigil went under; and months away from God & Heroes (at the time it was relevant) and Pirates of the Burning Sea which could've been used as replacement justifications.
Regardless of why Vanguard was purchased though, SOE took on debt in doing so. It just doesn't seem likely there'll ever be a huge infusion of cash for what's already "the second most expensive MMO ever", that just so happens to have one of the tiniest player bases ever among mainstream MMOs.
There's also certain stigmas associated with being "the second most expensive MMO ever". The fact that Vanguard was expensive to produce for didn't suddenly disappear at launch, or when Sigil's hands were off of it. The game had a hundred-person strong development team for a reason; it required it. So there's also the realization that say, two dozen people workin' on Vanguard isn't the same as two dozen people workin' on EQII; no one can't expect the same amount of progress even though the former probably has a larger team anyway.
So you know, existing debt and an extraordinary need for manpower doesn't much pair well together. It's safe to assume SOE went into "cut losses" mode when the server count was reduced, development staff halved and Vanguard's chief was swapped out for Thom who's shared with Planetside. All the "ifs" towards Vanguard's "potential" count on a scenario completely opposite of what SOE has enacted thus far.
Really, I don't see the point in anyone believing Vanguard can be a contender, or ever was a contender for the masses. Especially with the pretense "if SOE did this, if Sigil had done that". Ifs, ifs, ifs. An "if" can be said about anything.
Saying "if Blizzard removed instancing, overhauled the graphics engine to require 7 series or later GeForces for World of Warcraft" is a whole lot safer of an "if" than waiting on SOE to pull any wondrous miracles for Vanguard, because Blizzard actually has the dough to follow any incentive they so choose to have.
Vanguard is as good as its going to get. Great for folks already content with, but really, those in constant defense of the game based on multi-million dollar "ifs" are deluded.
Comments
Well, I've tried so many MMORPGs and have been repeatedly disappointed. I've stuck through the tough times with Vanguard and am now having as much fun as I did in the early years of EQ. Sure, part of the positive attitude comes from seeing the before and after state of this game... but it's also a shared viewpoint of many folks that are really having a good time in Vanguard.
Vanguard might well lose a good chunk of its PvP crowd when AoC comes out, particularly since the devs have admitted that they're not even looking at any PvP issues at the moment and won't for the foreseeable future. And they might lose more PvP'ers when WAR finally launches, but otherwise VG is in the same boat as MxO, Planetside, and the other games in the SOE stable-- it's got a mostly loyal playerbase that aren't leaving because they've made friends in the game, and it meets their standards for a fun game.
Vanguard's not so much a dying game as it is one that is finally settling into its niche. Like any other MMO, it will gain and lose players, but since SOE don't have a track record of shutting down games, it will survive and float along on its merry way.
And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
I think a lot of people that are really into PvP will try out AoC. In fact a majority of people that enjoy MMORPG will give AoC a shot. AoC will have to deliver a heck of a lot more than just PvP though. We shall see what AoC has got when its released. I will bet there will be some issues - there always is when a game is released.
I think it is a misstatement saying the developers are not even looking at PvP. Here is the latest post from Silius on the subject:
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=31131񙈓
Bascially they are still working on class balancing and this effort will improve the PvP game. Once that is accomplished the PvP development effort will re-evaluated.
I read Silius' post as saying : We are balancing DPS, and that if that happens to iron out some PvP stuff well cool but if not we'll think about it later"
Which I think is a good use of limited resources. VG's selling point is a top quality PvE experience, I really don't think it would be clever to try and compete in the PvP space against AoC and WAR. Imo the battle for PvPers cannot be won by VG, but the PvE content is unique and deep and provides a higher marginal return on Dev time.
I thought that the "Isle of Dawn" was originally supposed to be in GU4, and was going to be live by now. I thought this was a key prerequisite for the free trial and relaunch originally proposed to happen by the end of 2007. Now it is a hypothetical item to be in GU6. This suggests to me that there really aren't the resources available to turn things around in the near future.
Oh, and if anyone is spending time on developing fishing, there really is a prioritization problem.
Please show me any scrap of evidence to support the notion that a brand new raid dungeon (and i mean dungeon, not some overland rubbish mob) is being worked on. APW was being focus tested for MONTHS by guilds like Pain and BoW before it went live, and it was being chatted about for months before the testing started.And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
The has been a lot of chatter, and for awhile now. Avarem recently stated on one of the New Raid Dungeon Threads:
"The next raid dungeon won't be Stiirhad (although yes, Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon), but it also won't be the 'RI remake'. It will be a dungeon that has yet to be seen by the general public. I won't say any more for now, but I think a handful of people did get summoned inside for the end of beta event, so there might be a few screenshots floating around."
So they are working on it, but won't tell people where it is. Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon, but it's not the NEXT raid dungeon. The devs discussed it some in their chat (looking for it now - also looking for those screen-shots). So as far as what it will be, is still speculation, but one of the prominent 'theories' is that is the raid content only accessed via a Galleon.
So, it's clear it is in the works. What is not clear is exactly when.
By the way, Stiirhad reminds me ALOT of Veeshan's Peak. When converted to a Raid dungeon, that will be an absolutely incredible experience.
The diehard fans on the one RP server will say, "hey, I log on my level 50 and see plenty of other level 50's so the game must be healthy." But that's like false hope in a leper colony.
This game is dying. Sony needs to pull the plug.
And in terms of time frame GU5 is not fully on Test yet (Ellyra says the current Test notes are only a preview of GU5), will be at least May of not June when the update hits Live. There is no way GU6 makes it live before August at the earliest.
Im not trying to be a jerk here but cmon, lets keep it real
The has been a lot of chatter, and for awhile now. Avarem recently stated on one of the New Raid Dungeon Threads:
"The next raid dungeon won't be Stiirhad (although yes, Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon), but it also won't be the 'RI remake'. It will be a dungeon that has yet to be seen by the general public. I won't say any more for now, but I think a handful of people did get summoned inside for the end of beta event, so there might be a few screenshots floating around."
So they are working on it, but won't tell people where it is. Stiirhad will be a raid dungeon, but it's not the NEXT raid dungeon. The devs discussed it some in their chat (looking for it now - also looking for those screen-shots). So as far as what it will be, is still speculation, but one of the prominent 'theories' is that is the raid content only accessed via a Galleon.
So, it's clear it is in the works. What is not clear is exactly when.
By the way, Stiirhad reminds me ALOT of Veeshan's Peak. When converted to a Raid dungeon, that will be an absolutely incredible experience.
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=26922
kk, i found the post you were referring to. But how did you figure this new raid dungeon was a High Probability to make it into GU6, or even being worked on in earnest? To me that post says 'We have written down on a piece of paper where we plan to make the next raid dungeon', and they have decided it won't be Stiirhad. There was sooo much preperation and information released as APW was being worked on, my honest feeling is that the next dungeon wont hit live this year.
Beyond what is formally announced, like GU5, admittedly it's always speculation from various threads, developer posts, developer chats, beta-testers etc. However, I've watched each and every Game Update closely, and the 'predictions' are always pretty darn close with the exception of the Free Trial Island. For example, the developer working on fishing has strongly alluded to GU6, but never committed etc. So yes, it's piecing together information.
That said, August might be optimistic, but they have been working on it awhile, in fact, immediately after APW went live. APW was the biggest challenge as it was the first, the raid dynamics, mechanics had to be hammered out, the raid size all that stuff. Going forward, I think we can expect to see quicker development and go-lives with the planned raid dungeons.
Come on, AoC is cominag and WAR, this game is completely finished. SOE is preparing to pull the plug, and why would SOE keep a game that competes with EQ2? It has NO chance of stealing WoWs extremely intelligent and savy player base. We know better than play a turd that has no decent PvP, just moronic mobs that wait while 72+ people gather, buff, and use the same old sad tactics of tank, healing wheel, and DPS classes.
You think AOC will be use another tank healing dps tactic?
No, and this game has one and a half foot in the grave, AoC finishes this turd off.
As far from WoW as you get?? Maybe it WAS, back when it had potential, and Sigil still ran it. The very second SOE got their hands on it the patches came slower and slower until there were 4 month waits for each patch. That's pretty terrible. Then EE system got scraped for no reason other than it was "complicated", sound like anything? Then everything was BOP and level requirments added to items. Oh good, more restrictions. Then, I read THIS maelstrom of garbage and uninstalled for good. http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=21665
This game was so amazing when I started playing it, amazing classes, the world was beautiful and there were no instances! It had such depth and adventure and mystery, the combat was pretty fun. It took my back to my Dark Age of Camelot days. I'm sad to see it go the path of SWG and all those other once good games before big companies tried to play "follow the retarded toddler".
Darkfall Travelogues!
Between AoC and WAR, it's probably a safe bet that Vanguard will end up ditching PvP since it's not a priority for the devs, it's their least populated server by a wide margin, and a good chunk of their players on Sartok could end up leaving especially if they find the PvP satisfying in AoC or WAR.
The rest is just an exercise in patience. SOE still keeps MxO and Planetside servers up and running, so there's no chance of Vanguard being shut down at all. The only question is how long players are willing to wait for any changes they are wanting to see. If they're impatient or they get irritated with the devs, they'll leave. If they're willing to put up with what they don't like in order to play with their friends and guildies until those changes go live, then they'll stay. Period.
There is no question about vanguard being around for a long time. Of all the SoE games it is the one that has the most advanced and open capabilities. Frankly it is the only one that is in the same league as games like ago of conan or warhammer. With the right resources and added polish and development Vanguard could easily be the top PvE based MMORPG on the market. And they could even make it a decent PvP game as well. Certainly the scope and potential of Vanguard beats any game on the market today. It's just poorly implemented, buggy and lacks polish and quality. But none the less it has a solid framework and if they can fix the performance issues it might have a very solid foundation to build from.
Really all the is open is to see if soe recognizes this fact and dumps the resources into it to really push it to the point where it can actually compete with AoC or Warhammer or whatever other game comes out. Or will they continue to put resources into EQ and EQ2 trying to hold on to that customer base while letting Vanguard move along slowly on little more the life support.
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Ethion
If they haven't committed a large number of resources by now, what are the chances of them doing it in the future? I'm not saying that SOE will completely ignore Vanguard, but if it's not a priority now, then it's unlikely that it will be a priority in the future. It will still get content updates and new features, but beyond that, what do players have to look forward to in the coming years?
With SOE turning their attention towards their newer MMO properties like The Agency and their flagship EverQuest games, the real test of whether VG is going to get any significant attention from SOE will be if they ever expand the team by any noticeable scale and/or announce an expansion pack. If neither of those comes to pass in the next year as WAR and AoC hit the market, then I'd place VG firmly in the same MxO/Planetside boat of games that are strictly on life support and nothing more.
I think a lot depends on how VG does in the coming months as they fix various bugs and launch the trial island. I think if they see continued growth in the player base they might put more resources into it.
Frankly I think SoE will be in trouble if they don't.
EQ is aging and I really can't see them gaining new players
EQ2 is about as good as it is going to get but it is limited by a bad engine design that would need to be completely overhauled. It has also passed it technical peak and just won't be able to compete with games coming out this year it will look really dated.
SWG, Matrix, and planetscape are all on lifesupport mostly and again I don't see any growth just slow attrit
The Agency is all I really see coming soon and the agency isn't gonna score big it is a niche game that will be lucky to break 100k.
Vanguard is fundamentally a good game with a lot of good things going for it. It is also a huge game with lots of room for growth and improvement. Vanguard did sell 200k based on what people thought it would be and what it still could be. If they announced a real plan for Vanguard to revamp areas, clean up many starting area, and quest lines, and fill in some of the voids and then added some more raid and announced a relaunch or expansion and even charged something for it with some marketing push they could definitely compete with other games on the market now.
But as you say maybe they are too stupid, maybe they can marshal the resources to buy the game but not make it successfully, or maybe I'm just stupid and the game is totally crap and SoE are the smart ones... I guess it is easy to throw stones when you don't have to pay the bills :P
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Ethion
Let's see how well the hitching fix in GU5 works. If it works can we speculate that the existing resources will be moved towards fixing other things.
On test server now you will see hitches still, not the initial bigger hitching, the hitching is smaller but spread more over time. A thing that I can't recall from live even though I play is that the quality on ground textures scales more when you close in on them, maybe they do on live already but I can't remember the same behaviour. Maybe you should check it out yourself and see what I am meaning. The other things is that objects are not loaded all at the same time, while it have been popping up earlier aswell, they pop up around the same time now but they are supposedly not loaded at the same time. Again if I have gotten the right impression.
This could be just a big performance fix as the performance increases done the first months after release.
Currently there are alot of issues with the test servers but assumingly they will be fixed.
But anyway, if it works one can hope they won't use up as much resources on fixing performance in the future.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
It's possible that they'll gain some new players when the trial island finally goes in. I don't see why they wouldn't. Still, I don't see their growth being all that large percentage-wise given that VG is already over a year old now, and there are plenty of other games on the horizon, or which are doing well now.
I'm not so sure.
They've said publicly that they're going to start moving away from the subscription-based model for their games and towards more downloadable content and micro-transactions. With all the work they're doing for the PS3 and a game like The Agency, I think those moves are much closer than we might realize, and Sony won't mind taking a loss on their sub-based MMO's as long as their newer games bring in real money via DLC and RMT-based transactions.
True. It's almost 10 years old, and the chances of a large number of new players joining that game are pretty much nil. They've got their loyal players, and that's pretty much it.
It's not a bad game, but it had a crap launch and it took many years and several expansions for them to finally get it right. They'll get some players due to their free trials and because it offers an updated, faster version of EQ, but it probably won't grow much from where it's at now.
True again. All of those games are dead in the water and will never grow. They're solely filler to beef up the perceived value of the Station Pass.
If you're placing The Agency in the traditional subscription model, you'd be on the right track. However, Sony said that they're going to aim for a non-traditional business model for the game to lower the entry barrier for a console audience, since The Agency will also be on the PS3 as well as the PC.
100,000 people who are paying real money for downloadable weapons and gear could conceivably bring in more money than just a straight subscription model.
The biggest problem that Vanguard is facing, apart from its clear lack of development resources, is the bad reputation that it already has in the market. Just look at the forums for games like AoC and WAR-- the biggest fear from some folks following those games is that they'll end up being "another Vanguard". That's NOT meant as a compliment.
It's not a small hurdle for VG, either. VG's already seen as damaged goods, so the chances of a massive boost in subs even after all those added resources is unlikely.
Of the 200k who bought Vanguard, most of them have quit and have likely found other MMO's to satisfy their gaming needs. A few might give the game another look if a free trial ever came out, but I don't see VG growing significantly over its current niche. It will gain some, and it will lose some, but it won't expand much more than its current playerbase, IMO.
I don't know who's right, really. And you're not wrong to enjoy the game. If it's fun for you, no one else's opinion matters.
However, with SOE now directly under the Sony Computer Entertainment umbrella, and with Sony reorganizing their gaming division, I sense that more attention will be paid to the games that are more recognizable (i.e., the EverQuest games, just because of the name brand) and to their newer properties like The Agency. I think it's entirely possible that their newer emphasis on restructuring and retooling their online apporach will leave a game like VG as Station Pass filler along with MxO and Planetside rather than as one that they'll really push.
Of course, I could be wildly off the mark and SOE will prove me wrong. We'll just have to wait and see.
Let's see how well the hitching fix in GU5 works. If it works can we speculate that the existing resources will be moved towards fixing other things.
On test server now you will see hitches still, not the initial bigger hitching, the hitching is smaller but spread more over time. A thing that I can't recall from live even though I play is that the quality on ground textures scales more when you close in on them, maybe they do on live already but I can't remember the same behaviour. Maybe you should check it out yourself and see what I am meaning. The other things is that objects are not loaded all at the same time, while it have been popping up earlier aswell, they pop up around the same time now but they are supposedly not loaded at the same time. Again if I have gotten the right impression.
This could be just a big performance fix as the performance increases done the first months after release.
Currently there are alot of issues with the test servers but assumingly they will be fixed.
But anyway, if it works one can hope they won't use up as much resources on fixing performance in the future.
I just got done playing on test with several characters. Some people are having graphical issues but I guess I'm a lucky one for me everything was fine. I'm playing on the highest quality settings with all the bells and whistles turned on. I started in tursh where I started looking for the citizen registar so I did a lot of running around in and out of buildings. I did still have some hitching but it was much shorter bouts and seemed to clear up even faster. Once i'd go in a building or two I was hitch free for the entire time I was running around looking in and out of buildings.
I then ran to Rindol and as I ran through the field of brownies I had one hitch and then entering rindol I had 3 hitchs. All smaller then on live. After that Rindol was hitch free for me.
I then logged a character into Kahl where I started outside. I ran through the hall where the rogue trainer is located. The process of going to the hall and running through it and out the other side all had some hitching. The hitching here was worse then in tursh. But it wasn't as bad as live. Once i'd ran through the bar area to the inner harbor most of the hitching was gone. I ran into the bank area next and got a couple little hitches there. After that I ran all around the harbor in all the buildings without any hitching at all.
So I think GU5 is taking a good step in the right direction. They say this is only the first set of changes and there are more that will make it even better. If they can squeeze even more out hitching for Vanguard will become a non-issue. This is one of the best things I thing they have done for the game. With hitching gone what remains is a solid game that needs more content and more polish and debugging of existing content. Not a bad situation. Like I've said I think the tame is technically good and if it's just a matter of building out content and cleaning up the existing content I think it's in a very good position to move forward.
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Ethion
For me I'm currently playing eq2. Even though the graphic engine is crap the game has a lot of good content that makes it fun and interesting.
The next game for me is Age of Conan. I played in the initial pvp beta and thought the game was pretty good. I'm a little concerned with how cagey funcom is being with the beta with lots of strong limitations on what testers can see or do. My fear is that Age of Conan will release with major bugs and gameplay issues. I'm hoping that doesn't happen
I'm still watching Vanguard and playing off and on because I still think Vanguard has the potential to be a great game. But I'm not able to get into it enough to get into raiding and the quest area or doing the factioning for swamp armor just isn't something I want to take on. I did all the wardship factioning and have a full set of wardship armor. When I got to the swamp it was, oh know not again... :P
So in a few months after gu6 or whatever and after AoC has been out I'll likely go back to Vanguard when AoC is revealed to be too buggy or when I get tired of it. Warhammer being heavily PvP oriented isn't really interesting and I've not been following it and have no plans to play it.
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Ethion
If they haven't committed a large number of resources by now, what are the chances of them doing it in the future? I'm not saying that SOE will completely ignore Vanguard, but if it's not a priority now, then it's unlikely that it will be a priority in the future. It will still get content updates and new features, but beyond that, what do players have to look forward to in the coming years?
With SOE turning their attention towards their newer MMO properties like The Agency and their flagship EverQuest games, the real test of whether VG is going to get any significant attention from SOE will be if they ever expand the team by any noticeable scale and/or announce an expansion pack. If neither of those comes to pass in the next year as WAR and AoC hit the market, then I'd place VG firmly in the same MxO/Planetside boat of games that are strictly on life support and nothing more.
Agreed, SOE have had more than enough opportunities to justify putting ANY resources into Vanguard since it took over the running and developement of the game post-launch.
Its obvious that they would rather the Vanguard team pull themselves "out of the mire" rather than help them. It's such a shame, it really it. With that said, SOE have a track record of keeping even the most terminally ill games afloat. So I agree that Vanguard ain't going to be shut down anytime soon. Sure the fanbase and the devs will try valiantly to keep interest in the game. But there's only so much they can do.
SOE are developing a track record for not throwing a lot of money at games. They're not even aiming for any one game to be a WOW beater. Why bother? After all, if you have 10 mediocre MMO's in your portfolio which people swap between at will, then this is better than just having 1 MMO which results in people canceling their account and starting give their money to another company when they get bored. SOE aren't stupid. Whether you play Vanguard, EQ2, SWG...SOE still gets their money. If you hate the direction of development of one game and jump to another.....SOE still gets their money.
What SOE don't realise is that perhaps trying to STOP people from jumping ship on their MMO's may be a better idea than hoping people will just leapfrog from one SOE title to another.
In short, Vanguard is SOE's equivalent of a "red-headed step child". SOE aren't that keen on it but still has the morals not to bag it and throw it in the river. It really is a shame. Vanguard could have been so much better had SOE actually dug into their resources and helped out.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
To me it always seemed like SOE saved Vanguard simply because they were it's publisher, and one specific importance of Vanguard was the fact it was pretty much the justification behind raising Station Access prices mere months before Sigil went under; and months away from God & Heroes (at the time it was relevant) and Pirates of the Burning Sea which could've been used as replacement justifications.
Regardless of why Vanguard was purchased though, SOE took on debt in doing so. It just doesn't seem likely there'll ever be a huge infusion of cash for what's already "the second most expensive MMO ever", that just so happens to have one of the tiniest player bases ever among mainstream MMOs.
There's also certain stigmas associated with being "the second most expensive MMO ever". The fact that Vanguard was expensive to produce for didn't suddenly disappear at launch, or when Sigil's hands were off of it. The game had a hundred-person strong development team for a reason; it required it. So there's also the realization that say, two dozen people workin' on Vanguard isn't the same as two dozen people workin' on EQII; no one can't expect the same amount of progress even though the former probably has a larger team anyway.
So you know, existing debt and an extraordinary need for manpower doesn't much pair well together. It's safe to assume SOE went into "cut losses" mode when the server count was reduced, development staff halved and Vanguard's chief was swapped out for Thom who's shared with Planetside. All the "ifs" towards Vanguard's "potential" count on a scenario completely opposite of what SOE has enacted thus far.
Really, I don't see the point in anyone believing Vanguard can be a contender, or ever was a contender for the masses. Especially with the pretense "if SOE did this, if Sigil had done that". Ifs, ifs, ifs. An "if" can be said about anything.
Saying "if Blizzard removed instancing, overhauled the graphics engine to require 7 series or later GeForces for World of Warcraft" is a whole lot safer of an "if" than waiting on SOE to pull any wondrous miracles for Vanguard, because Blizzard actually has the dough to follow any incentive they so choose to have.
Vanguard is as good as its going to get. Great for folks already content with, but really, those in constant defense of the game based on multi-million dollar "ifs" are deluded.