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Time...Or...Skill?
DragenSoul
Member Posts: 86
What should determine success in MMO Worlds.
Time or Skill?
Time: Johnny McSomething plays 6 hours a day has the best stuff in the game. But sucks at playing it.
Skill: Steven 'O Whatshisname plays 1 Hour on week days and 3 on week ends he is very skilled at the game. But fails at getting good items due to time limitations.
If both of them fought. Who should win?
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Comments
The second guy. I've always felt that the game should be about what I can do and how I react rather then the amount of HP my armor gives me.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
3. The guy who plans his attack well and uses strategy to win
Time should never give you a victory, its like saing 100 year old guy can kick my ass cause hes older.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
First guy would win.
Why?
Because he has the best gear.... MOST MMO's out these days depend on atleast 70% gear... if not 50% gear and 20% luck or so...
Exactly, but its different in the MMO's of today....
Say we're both level 70's in WoW.... you have the BEST gear, I have noob items.... who's going to win? (consider we're both the same class etc so there are no other barriers)
Even gear based games rely on skill. Nobody can just log 10000 hours and have the best gear. You still have to have the skill to get it.
Tired of this argument. Usually it's from people who are brand new to the industry or have played like 2 mmos.
You want something? Have the patience to achieve it. End of story.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
combination of both, preferably mostly skill. this is why age of conan is fun.
My blog:
Skill should win over gear. But having said that, time will give you gear and more experience using your skills and more than likely make you a more skilled player.
There is no replacement for personal experience. Only way to get better is to get out there and do it and learn from mistakes. If you took 2 people from WoW as an example, 1 person who has played a warrior for a year straight but only has season 1 arena gear and then took someone who never played the warrior class before and handed him a full season 3 geared warrior and let them duel I guarantee that the season 1 guy would win hands down.
explain me how the hell Johnny McSomething plays 6h/day and sucks. i can understand that some ppl are naturally talented,or just have faster reactions.
with 6 hours/day Johnny McSomething is bound to get a certain degree of skill. that added to the best gear will make Steven 'O Whatshisname's life way harder.
provided we'r talking about RPGs ,since FPSs are different and time means little, and provided Johnny hasnt spent 95% of that 6 hours chatting in global chat,he will win. and its illogical to think otherwise.
actually i'd never play an RPG were time invested meant shit,its obvious theres a really huge flaw on its system.thats what FPSs are for.
In WoW and most MMOs today, 90% gear is more true. I proved this to myself by playing on a WoW private server. Rogues were the most powerful class on this server. I had never before played a Rogue in WoW.
I bought a set of donation armor and weapons then proceeded to kill everyone who didn't have the exact same donation gear as I did. This included people who had donor gear, just not the same tier as I had.
After about a dozen fights I then proceeded to kill anyone who wasn't a rogue.
After about a dozen more fights I then proceeded to take on donor rogues with my same gear who had a great deal of experience. I lost to them for about the first 50 duels. Then I started beating them about 25% of the time and after about two weeks I was beating them at least 50% of the time.
Moral of this story, its all gear in WoW. Only total idiots can think otherwise. Want proof, PM me and we can set up a nice little duel on this private server.
Its like racing someone in a Ford Escort when they are driving a Ford Mustang 5.0. No matter how good of a driver you are, the odds of winning in that Escort, assuming the Mustang driver can start the car; you're going to lose the race.
Its all about the gear, stupid!
I have an IRL friend that plays WoW and he has the best gear you can get (teir 6) in a 4/6 SW raiding guild. Having said that, I don't need to tell you he plays a lot with a raiding guild like that and that he has as much S3 as his rating allows him to buy (4/5 S3). He pretty much fits that description, he plays a ton but he is probably one of the worst PvPers. He is the type of person that dies when ganked by people of a lower level and caps out with 1600 ratings in arena. The part that really makes no sense at all is that he is actually good at some FPS games but he just has no desire to PvP in MMO's.
I'll be honest as well.. he isn't exactly alone either. I've seen tons of terrible players in WoW with really good gear and I doubt that it would differ much from other games.
Sorry if you've never played WoW as this won't make any sense. All I'm saying is what the OP suggest is not only true but very common. I basically only PvP in most of the MMO's I play and I capped out at 2200+ rating as a feral druid in WoW so I'm constantly watching other PvPers for potential partners.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Nice analogy.
For the most part, time is always a factor. Even in FPS it takes lots of time to become a skilled player.
However, I do agree that being gear centric is a big negative, especially for PvP. I'd much rather lose to some one who is more skilled than me, rather than some one who is just geared and/or buffed.
LOL If you're DPS then I agree...to a point. It does require skill to do a lot of the BC raid encounters. Sorry but it does.If it didn't, everyone would be in tier 6. Oh wait they aren't. Hence it does.
Seriously. PvPers think every other form of gaming is sub-par. Are you guys also racist? Because they don't have the same skin tone they must be stupid?
Here's the real pro tip to you PvPers in gear based games...stop PvPing in gear based games, and you'll have your skill based game. Turn on CoD4 and turn off WoW. Go play Eve if you're so skilled, where death actually means something.
All the chest beating really gets old fast.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Level based linear games = time
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Bravo. Netherwvoid said exactly what I was thinking.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
WoW requires little to no skill, it requires time and knowledge (or just not being retarded). Everything in wow is static when you fight a boss you have the same experience as I do. So you learn a pattern you don't use skill, you use knowledge. I'm not saying thats bad, I'm saying do all games have to be like that, I'm saying can't we have a few more games like eve.(just not in space and not so slow)
I have turned off wow, and i do play cod4, and im waiting for huxley and apd, until then "pounds chest"
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Ok I'll bite with my view.
Time and skill both count, as does lag. Social skills are key as well, you won't get far in PvP or PvE if you're a complete ass cause no one will help you.
But what I feel is most important is Awareness. In all aspects of MMOs, and most any other game for that matter. lets look at some examples. See that mob you want to kill? go attack it. the aware person notices the 10 other aggro mobs nearby, the idiot doesn't. most every raid boss in WoW is simple, as long as people see what is happening and arn't complete idiots.
The same is true of PvP. sure in 1v1 the person in godly super gear beats the person in meh gear. but when you add other people everything changes. gear advantages, level advantages mean a lot, but you'll always find PuGs that will stand there attacking a tank while someone spams heals. the tank will never die and the idiot PuG will lose. and they will never notice the people attacking their clothies or healers or anything. they won't protect their flag.
So many diffrent things matter....
1. Knowing how to respond to diffrent situations. People can simply tell you these things, you can learn from experience.
2. Noticing the diffrent situations in order to respond to them. this actually takes... some level of intelligence. Single minded tunnel vision = not someone you want to game with.
3. Being able to respond to the situations. This can involve time vs skill. its not hard to press buttons, but you may have to be max level for that button press to mean anything. and pressing a button is useless if you have a 9999 ping and the game doesn't know you've cast your fireball till 30seconds later.
4. Having your response to the situation matter. Even if you can kill 10 people alone, it makes no diffrence if you are playing CTF and you are nowhere near either flag. or if you have no friends and its 11v1. being a team player and helping to fufull the objective is more important than pointless kills. I don't care if you have 100k DPS if you arn't attacking the boss the rest of the group is after.
I could go on. But the time vs skill debate will go on forever. its never completely skill unless both people are giving completely identical situation and no one else is involved. and its never completely time unless the game auto-kills whoever has less /timeplayed as soon as the game starts.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Very good points. IMO, situational awareness is generally what seperates the good MMO players from the horible, or just average players. As you said, this is why PvP does require some skill, when you mix in more players. Now, you have MUCH more to pay attention to and it's not as easy to just stand in one spot, mash your "I win" buttons, and let your gear/stats fight for you.
It's no surprise then that big PvP battles are the one time in MMOs when you can actually see players pull off some impressive, skillful stuff. Because, again, it's more about awareness and less about stats...
Take a warlock, a mage or rogue. In uber gear they will dominate level 70s in blues and greens and low purples.
The last thing i read about ilevels in WoW was they are up to 153 or so. Meaning the stats on that item are the equivilent of the stats that a 153 should have on. #'s in WoW almost mean nothing when a group of 5 ubers can destroy tons apon tons of under geared players w/out even worrying about straightegizing.
Just go look at any videos, on youtube, you will see people in high season gear destroy and stomp on people not in tier gear higher than 5
even the most godly geared person can't take on a few decent people in meh gear. Yes, in WoW. name any class in the best gear for PvP in the entire game, and i'll show you a 2man team that can beat them in meh blues.
any melee class can be owned by a correctly specced dual mage group. and caster loses to a priest+warrior. a hunter no matter how good is nothing against a druid+pally. A warlock? 2 rogues, 2 mages, a warlock in greens + any other class.
Gear means a lot in WoW, but as soon as you add more people, its no longer the deciding factor. numbers mean control, and control + awareness = win.
And NEVER site PvP videos for... anything. there are videos of melee warlocks using a firestone to kill people. people don't record themselves getting their ass kicked, or almost losing to someone in greens. they record their double crits, their lucky wins, and their fights against idiots.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
PvP in most MMOs aren't even quite skillful. It all depends on 2 things: gear and what special stuff you have to win. No matter how it's sliced, that level 30 guy will never knock down the level 80 guy (and please don't say that "my level 30 guy can" without a disclaimer that he's a second, third, fourth, five account replayed). Read somewhere that armor alone was 50% of a player in PvP, so that's the advantage.
Situational awareness more applies to FPS games, where no one is decked out with uber gear (or 1001 spells). A newbie can still down a general, with a headshot if he's good at aiming (and in FPS games, few like snipers because of that!).
Truth is, most PvP types who claim XYZ is easy or hard are those who already are decked out, and from that perch, can say such things. What isn't said is how they got their epic gear; how they performed to get it (no public comprehensive stats in MMOs to show REAL skill); and how they're keeping their status (e.g., raiding all the time).
There's a lot not said.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I say Skill but of course what I yearn for is full blown nextgen MMOFPS or something twitchy
for an MMORPG I guess Time is the answer
But for MMO, MMORTS, MMOFPS, I say Skill.
If gear is no factor in gaming, then whats the point of getting it ? I certainly want gear to matter.
And I guess if sucka in great gear meets killa in awful gear, killa would probably still kick his ***. Especially if sucka is in an awful guild and killa is in a great one, so killa wont stay THAT much behind in gear, actually.
Exactly.
it defends on the game they are playing...
most of the games needs a geared up items to become powerful, while in other games u need strategy and skill combination to become powerful...