I too have been waiting on that UO replacement. I looked at UO but they still have that Trammel nonsence which totally ruined it for me. Pre-Trammel was great.
I happily enjoy Eve until something that is released to capture my imagination that isn't a backwards step in the evolution of MMORPG.
Originally posted by Xasapis To the OP: Taking the viewing angle of your original post, I think that you will never be satisfied with any MMO ever released, for a couple of reasons. The main reason is that you have idolised the times you had in UO. The first MMO we play usually defines our expectations and needs for anything we play after that. Like the first love, impossible to forget and defining of what we are to expect from that point on. There is a lot of nostalgia involved with the games of the past. Time tends to make us forget all the bad things and remember the good things. A month going back to UO will be enough to remind you the reason(s) that made you leave the game. Regarding the thread title, I don't think that any evolution is present in the gender. In fact, it's more akin to time-jumps. You get one game with innovations, that then spawns imitators. Then you have your next innovation jump, which again is followed by more imitators. The last jump was done by WoW. I don't believe we have gone past the imitators phase, not yet. As for MMOs and graphics, there is art and there is graphics engine. Those two need to complement each other. When one is bad or outdated, the other suffers. And when those two suffer, the immersion suffer. I sense a trend in these boards lately that suggests that a good MMO should have an outdated graphics engine. The people who say that, are still stuck with the imitators. Sometime, hopefully in the near future, we'll see a new innovator coming along.
I call bunk because my own "first love" MMO was Asheron's Call 1 and I don't think it was the best. I think it was on the right track with the huge world concept, but that it had major imbalances in gameplay that were often hit with the nerf bat machine from Hell to cover the tracks of its flaws. Then my "second love" MMO was SWG, the same issue arose. So, no, your argument is false in that if I exist and I do not hold Asheron's Call or SWG to some magically impossible esteem then it is entirely possible the individual's own argument can be assessed similarly. Therefore, attack the argument and not the person.
A lot of people are pointing to needing PvP in a sandbox like UO. You don't really need to have all out PvP to have an expansive world that allows you to advance in many different ways. Right now character building is very limited in games in that you go out and kill things. There should be other ways to advance a character then through combat IMO.
Quests could be so much more then they are. Right now we are steal dealing with the same static quests from the early MMOs, but with a more advance system to make things easier. The devs have yet to experiment with ways to make quests and mob spawning more dynamic in nature so that camping can be removed and quests are not always the same for everyone.
Overall big games seem to be stuck in the same mold for the most part. No one is trying anything new that hasn't been done before. AoC has tried a new combat system, but I don't find it any better then autoattack and click on ability when you need it. It just seems to bring you back to the days of spam clicking.
PVP ruins an otherwise good MMO. Developers need to create virtual worlds that challenge the player, stop relying upon the players to challenge themselves.
PVP in a level or gear based MMO will never be skill based, therefore not fair to the players. That will lead to the player base leaving. Since time is the factor that decides all fights, many players who have less time will leave the MMO. Eventually those with more time will get bored with having no 'newbs' to get easy kills from and they too will leave.
The solution is to build an MMO that is challenging due to AI. I envision a 6-12 person raid that is actually like a real D&D experience of old. Where its unpredictable, NOT scripted encounters. All ran by the gaming engine. Where player skill in their character will be rewarded. Where innovative player tactics will be rewarded. Where having the exact class makeup in a group isn't required. This is the future of the MMO genre if its to survive.
PVP in LOTRO, Guild Wars, and Eve Online, are the best ways of handling PVP in an MMO. In fact, LOTRO not known for its PVP, is one of the best. You're given an opportunity to be a monster at level 50 once you make level 10. This creates an instant enemy but avoids the issues regarding time spent leveling or gearing up breaking fairness.
The notion that no MMO can ever measure up to your "first love" is bullshit. I played two MMORPGs before I got into SWG and SWG is the only one I actually miss and want back. So I guess my third love was the best.
The pure and simple truth is that if I think a game sucks I won't play it. Every MMO since SWG has sucked. The only one which has come even remotely close is EVE but after Jump to Lightspeed I laugh at EVE's wretched RPG combat, their completely inane skill earning mechanic which removes all control from players, and the fact that I'm forever locked inside of a spaceship. Now, that criticism aside there was a lot EVE did well. The open PvP, the economics, et cetera.
So what impossible gaming standards would make me, a complete sandbox lover that thinks every MMO released in the past five years is a piece of shit, happy and maintain my long term interest in an MMO?
It boils down to five things:
1. Unified Game World (No instancing, no shards, no cutting corners)
2. Non-linear character advancement (no classes, no levels, no forcing me to quest and be a part of some retardly preordained storyline in which it makes little sense that my character would ever engage in)
3. Player Based Economies (all items player crafted, player ran services and stores, decent crafting, good loot mechanics in that the drops are only resources, components, or item enhancers).
4. Decent Character Customization
5. Decent Combat (more twitch based then RPG, so something akin to Tabula Rasa's system)
That's pretty much it. I'd even be willing to sacrifice #1, #4, and/or #5 and it wouldn't kill the game for me.
A lot of the way games are now is because of EQ.....i played it when it first came out or rather worked it....remeber how much work that game was and how everyone started calling it ever-crack lol lol....anyway it was more work then fun ......the devs picked up on that and out came DAOC and then WOW and etc etc...i miss the old eq before sony got to it.......anyway no more ever-crack just fun.....
I thought the OP wrote a terrific post, but like many others - I also strongly disagree with his call for Free for All PvP. There are simply times when all of us want to relax for a few minutes and not be worried about being ganked. Or about having to group up to do something as simple as enter a town. And there really is so much that could be done instead (but hasn't yet) with Realm vs. Realm combat. For example think of having full looting and losing territories instead of just Keeps. And perhaps even occasionally spicing things up on the home front with some meaningful Guild vs. Guild warfare as well...
But leaving that aside, in my opinion the recent arguments here about sandbox vs. quest centric linear MMORPGs are getting sidetracked. Simplified linear MMORPGs may initially sell a lot of boxes, but I really have a hunch that they may also be death as far as long term player retention goes. Because even a tired, hard working Joe Sixpack home from digging ditches all day long must crave at least some measure of variety and challenge in his gaming. And this is where the newer MMORPGs are now failing us so miserably.
To try and make my point, here's how I personally evaluated AoC. And why I chose not to even try it.
1.) Does AoC offer immersive opportunities for the explorer?
Apparently not. The game sounds more like a glorified cattle chute to me.
2.) Does AoC offer a choice rich character building process?
Again, no. And I'm not talking here about being able to create a topless female character. Or having kewl looking tatoos.
3.) Does AoC take a fine crafting and resource system, say of an old game like SWG, and improve upon that?
No.
4.) Does AoC have a diverse and interesting itemization, damage type and resistance system, say like the one in Asheron's Call 1?
No. It appears itemization in this game is amongst the most limited ever.
5.) Does AoC offer a multitude of choices as far as dungeons go? Again as an ancient game like AC1 managed to do so well.
No. It looks instead like the tedious EQ/Wow/Vanguard model to me. Offer one or two dungeons per 20 levels, and then let the players grind in there for days on end until they get finally their sword of +1% damage.
Now Funcom said straight out that they were creating a MMORPG centered entirely around combat. So I really don't fault them here. It's just that I can't fathom how anyone wouldn't soon be bored to tears doing combat alone and nothing else in these games. And why people keep trying to convince me these days, in all walks of life it's beginning to seem, that less really is more.
Do you remember how you felt the first time you were in love? Dont you still remember her/him? Still kinda feel the kiss on your lips? how sweet every moment was and how you loved unconditionally? Yes there might have been some flaws, but you were so in love, you didn't care.
I think its a bit the same with MMORPG's (or games in general). Many seem to feel that the first MMORPG they played was the best ever. Yes there were flaws, but you ignored them cause you loved the whole feel of the game. It doesn't really matter what game it was. You long for the vibe that game gave you. Like with love, there comes a time where the feeling goes away and you start looking for something new. Although you may have parted with bad feelings, you will start looking for something that gives you the same. And although you search long and hard, nothing compares (as Sinead O'Connor sings ). As every game differs, it will never be the same again, but you won't stop looking.
My example is Settlers 1. It was the first game i fell in love with. I played it night and day and couldn't get enough of it. Today im not sure what it was, but it felt great playing it. Today, every Strategie (or what ever the genre is) Game i buy/download the demo, i look for that feel, but it won't come back.
Games that are coming out now do not provide the 1 thing that makes mmorpgs great. Immersion.
From the first time I logged into UO I had no clue what was going on. Even with experience and being familiar with Ultima lore I was disoriented for a few hours while I tried to figure even basics things out. Competition for spell reagents was one of the craziest things I remember. PvP was even crazier but those who stuck with the game, formed friendships, joined guilds, worked together, and learned the games mechanics could actually accomplish anything in the game. Dying was not a big deal because you didn't lose skills. People could ressurect and if you knew what you were doing you could easily replace all your lost items. Risk vs. reward was a major part of the game. People who really tried became skilled players instead of the instant gratificationers who flooded the messageboards demanding the game be changed to fit their pop-o-matic needs.
Skills increased but noone really knew what to do and there were no shortcuts/short attention span things you could do to max anything out. Grandmasters in skills were rare and really meant something back then. If you really put the time and effort into your character it really showed.
These days people want instant gratification, they want to max everything out as quickly as possible. As time goes by we will see more mmorpgs slowly turn into PS3/XBOX type rpg with little or no interaction between people. Everyone will be able to solo their way to max everything and never even see another person. People are slowly accepting that any type of grouping is considered forced and is looked down on.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
To the OP: You DO realise that the maker of UO made a NEW MMORPG at the end of 2007. Tabula rasa. Hello ? still awake ? Enough said..... ------ In your comments you only said you played ONE MMORPG very passionately. Guess what: that game made a big evolution in these last 12 months and because you're blind you don't even see it, let alone play it. The rest is frustration and "sandbox talk" of some grown up "teenager" that has nothing to do with designing video games. Real life is FULL of frustration. MILLIONS of people try HARD to do their best in RL every day and NEVER get a thank you or reward. And YOU want to punish them further by letting them play a game where DEATH and punishments rule. So typical this attitude of a lot of MMORPG.COM forum users. So typical also for youngsters aged 19 or 29. Thats why "old grognards" like you don't see why normal people just need to play Wow. That's why its time you do need to grow up.
To quote the Matrix:
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith
Sorry just to play the devils advocate here that is the first thing that popped in my mind when I read your paragraph (text changed to red). I do have to admit I fit into your stereotype of the 19-29 age group (and yes it's very much a stereotype). I'm not defending or attacking anyone but there are people who enjoy games like that; my personal favorite MMO was AC1 and the only reason I quit was because the community disappeared. I personally play online games because I enjoy the interaction with other players; that is something lost in the new batch of MMO's, there is no "NEED" to interact. Also before anyone attacks me for needing attention, stop, I have all the attention I need (or want for that matter) but I enjoy my games when the wife is at work and I find single player games boring; no game has an AI that can match the fun factor or challenge of a person.
I will admit I did not read every post in this tread but a lot of issues where touched on that I had a semi opinion about but the two that I felt are most prominent are these.
1. Although everyone freaked about the addition of Tram in UO I personally think is was the perfect devision. You had the choice of gating to Tram and being in a consentual only environment (faction wars)yet could gate off to Fel(I still remember the sound bite for it) and be in a FFA no holds bared kick you in the face world. With FFA looting corpse camping griefing and the like and not one person here that played can say that the "noobs" didn't go off and try to steal spawns. They did it when they thought they where rdy. Or had the gear or w/e made them think they where rdy. (usually wern't) Creating imersion and real politics and conflict.
All needed in an MMO to maintain longevity.These are also the things that make EvE such a good sandbox type game to this day it is still the choice of the player where to be and play and what chances to take. By making mob's with lvl's and such its easy to decide if its worthwhile or not before you even strike. Its like saying I'mma go rob someone and be rich but then picking a bum to rob cause it easy. If I'm going to rob someone I'm not going to rob a bum cause I know it would be easy. WHY?? CAUSE HE HAS NO MONEY!!
2 Death the hell we have been put into with this death deal. Now of course noone should die forever in a game but also I expect to loose more then 2 minutes cause of it as well. To see a timer pop up and tell me when I can play again is freaking retarted. Now I thing as the OP did that UO had the best system of having to find a priest. WHY?? you ask here goes.
As a ghost in UO you had one of 4 choices.
a. you ran around like a silly nilly looking for a wandering healer (viable option) but it could take you the rest of a Spawn to find one.(spawn being something like a boss fight) only to come back to a finished battle.
b. a friend or guildmate ressed you but as any ereal PVP'er will know as much as you like to help sometimes its just not the right timing or he may be to far or to busy getting ganked himself. Or for the blind leading the blind in most cases not even noticing.
c. You ran back to town and this option was a good one IF you wern't a red(murderer) I was on 4 of my 5 characters so you can imagine how often I had that option.
d. You loged out till later and then came back to look for a res from one of the above mentioned way's.(frequent case for reds to be sitting at the public gate)
Now all that being said that is the system that Like the op I've been around the MMO ballpark a while feel was the most apropriate to give the feel of a n RPG IMO.
I could go on nd on about other thing with MMOS today but let me leave it at MMORPG's are not made anymore. We and now left with MOP's and I don't like mopping so for the time being I'm going to go out and get some sun this summer.
I may come back and rant about other thing I see in this post but mostly just agree with the OP.Bye for now time to go home and hook up my date for tonight with the 911.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Hold on. I'm confused. Death should penalize you? Shouldn't Death just plain kill you?
Isn't the rule that death should penalize you completely arbitrary? You think its obvious but in point of fact your way is completely arbitrary.
Neither death penalties nor non-penalties accurately represent death in any way. One of the biggest things about death is there is no going back.
Frankly people should just stop calling it death. Because it never has been that. Not during the era of MUDs which had far hrasher penalties than any wussy MMORPGs player can imagine and certainly not in MMORPGs.
Your problem is that you identify these mechanics with death when clearly none of them come anywhere close. You should probably stop using that word because it is coloring your perceptions.
I say this because both old-style penalties and current style restarts have been used appropriately in games for decades. So they are both fine.
Death penalties is what he was referring to. Most games have no major penalty for death. Most have none but a stat decrease for 5 min or less. I'm all for it simply because i prefer that hostile action in game come with a risk in many ways. Should you attack me with your best sword out of your so desire to grief me unprovoked that you might just lose that uber weapon. Was your cause worth your loss if you will. Rinse and repeat PVP is boring. Most people dont like to lose all they have on them like in Shadowbane but hey smart players banked items of high value so as to not lose them. Added a thrill factor to the game trying to get your goods to town alive lol.. The penalty for death was a looted corpse.
To bad most players don't want that risk making most PVP in games totally pointless.
the way i see it there should be NO penalties at all in any game, i really don't see any point to them. That being said i did like the way UO did it, always liked the turning into a ghost, but hated losing gear, i always thought it silly ppl would get really good gear then just have to bank it & never even use it.
This is a great thread. I wished I had found it earlier. Very interesting to read all of this.
To all the people who say that their first MMO is there favorite, I agree with you to some extent. However, My first MMO was UO, but EQ is what really got me hooked. Yes, it was called EverCrack for a good reason, but UO was a blast has there was always something to do in that game. To all the peole that WoW is their first MMO, yall really missed out on some awesome games!
Everything changes though. Just look society changed since 1997. Rock and Roll used to be huge for young people. How many young people listen to that nowdays. It is more or less dead now. Instead, I hear the Boom Boom of cars going down the road with words I cant even understand. Maybe not the best example, but yea everything changes has in with MMOs. Maybe one day someone will make a UO style game with 3d graphics, and we will be happy. I would just be happy with a game that I can really get into and play for the next five years. Has I did with EQ and DAoC.
OP is spot on, i played UO and have spent the years looking for a new MMo to really settle on
Ultima Online, Legend of Mir, Dragon raja....all crappy graphical games etc...however they have the excitement for a totaly open world, with no crummy instances
I miss old school UO terribly bad. People tell me it's just because it was my first MMO, screw that, it was the BEST game ever created(tied with monkey island series). It was a completely immersive sandbox of fun and suspense. In my opinion if you started MMOs during the EverQuest phase or later and never got to experience old school UO before EA got their hands on it, then you are a ruined MMO player in my book. I don't mean to sound elitist but it just is what it is.
You just havent got to experience:
1.) A completely open-ended world where there are NO RULES, LEVEL RESTRICTIONS, GEAR RESTRICTIONS, ELITIST GEAR CRUNCHING RESIL MUNCHING SPEC INSPECTING TARDS.
2.) A crafting system that actually DROVE the economy into full gear ( before EA ruined it). Imagine actually knowing and forming a relationship with a local blacksmith player. Imagine you running up and him knowing that you usually log on about 10pm and want your favorite set of black plate and halberd. AUCTION HOUSES NEED TO GO, crafting needs to be reinvented and should be one of the main staples of the economy, NOT RAIDING. Raiding should be for GLORY and FUN <--- yeah.. I said it... FUN....
3.) A sense of danger. Yeah, imagine that?. Imagine if you die to a troll, that troll can rummage and loot something of yours, or worse yet... you die, someone can come and loot your gear because you're an idiot and bit off more than you could chew. UO bred the best players in the genre. I compare early UO players to those little kids who beat mike tysons punch-out without cheat codes ( which gave most gray hair) and the current stain of MMO players are those who used a game genie, then went to school lunch and bragged about it.
I am honestly at this point disgusted. Maybe I am getting too old for the genre, maybe the emo haircut undead rogue playin' acne filled little epeeners have won the battle. Maybe us old timers will never get our old UO style game back. I have waited patiently but I am growing tired of it.
To the OP: You DO realise that the maker of UO made a NEW MMORPG at the end of 2007. Tabula rasa. Hello ? still awake ? Enough said..... ------ In your comments you only said you played ONE MMORPG very passionately. Guess what: that game made a big evolution in these last 12 months and because you're blind you don't even see it, let alone play it. The rest is frustration and "sandbox talk" of some grown up "teenager" that has nothing to do with designing video games. Real life is FULL of frustration. MILLIONS of people try HARD to do their best in RL every day and NEVER get a thank you or reward. And YOU want to punish them further by letting them play a game where DEATH and punishments rule. So typical this attitude of a lot of MMORPG.COM forum users. So typical also for youngsters aged 19 or 29. Thats why "old grognards" like you don't see why normal people just need to play Wow. That's why its time you do need to grow up.
This is the correct response.
MMO Played-EQ, EQ2, WOW, DDO, GW, COH, Vanguard, WAR
UO was like SWG in that it had good ideas but it was sooo buggy and unplayable and while you look through your rose tinted glasses, I just remember people moaning at how bad it was and by the time they could have done anything about it they ruined what made it great and the graphics just looked OLD. Everquest also wasn't the destruction of the genre and I don't think World of Warcraft was too which both were fantastic games before. The problem with mmorpgs is they age and developers need to add new content and as soon as they rise the level cap the game gets destroid, cause all of a sudden the old world becomes useless. I still love the concepts of SWG but I don't want another one because I just want my SWG pre cu back.
It's not all bad though I found EVE and I have to say it's the best mmorpg ever made IMO and hopefully some flaws I find with it will be fixed in later expansions because I would like some kool PVE.
---------------------------------------- Talking about SWG much?
I agree with the OP as well. Although trammel didnt kill it, it did hurt it. AOS expansion finished it off though when they changed it Diablo. Trammel did hurt UO, I think they know that to. By adding exactly double the land space is going to alienate people enough. They could have just made some trammel servers with a swtich or something and left a few pvp servers. I think most people would have liked this approach better than what it present.
Another thing is each and every game that has come out after EQ with the exception of a handful of games have all had the same formula. Pick a class, kill 10, 20, 1000000 rats etc..... then go on big group raids to get shiney stuff. And while I dont enjoy this type of gameplay it seems a lot more people do considering the sheer amount of players in WOW and games like it.
I miss old UO, I have played on some free servers since its demise but it just dont capture the magic it once did. The truth is, it is very dated. They could come out with a new UO type of game that has its ruleset etc.... But I wouldnt hold my breath considering the success of EQ, WOW And all the WOW Clones.
On September 25th, 1997, Ultima Online was released, giving birth to the modern age of MMORPGs. Anyone lucky enough to be sitting at their computer that day with a copy of UO in their hands got to experience one of the most interesting days in video game history. There were glitches, crashes, bugs, exploits, and unbearable lag in the path of anyone who dared log in to Origin's servers. But behind all the problems was a bold new game, filled with fresh ideas and a scope that no prior game could compare with. The world of Britannia was open to any who wanted to face its challenges. You could explore, craft, hunt, socialize, and die. With the success of Ultima Online, the future of the genre certainly looked bright. This was only the beginning. With time the genra would grow and mature, and soon there would be games that blew Ultima Online away, leaving it to only be remembered as the game that sparked the genra alive. Right?
Well, Maybe Not. I'm sitting here almost 11 years later looking at the account management page for Age of Conan. It's been out barely two weeks, and I'm about to cancel my subscription and head back to the world of Britannia. Not on an official server, but one that emulates the feel of the game as it was back in 1998. From the time I first entered Ultima Online up to the time I'm writing this, I have spent hours and hours playing every single MMORPG I could manage to provide time for. I've explored the worlds of Everquest, Asheron's Call 1 and 2, Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy, Eve and Shadowbane. I was there for the rise of Warcraft, the scams of Dark and Light, the patches that destroyed Star Wars: Galaxies, and the bot farming of Lineage II. I've seen it all. My list of cancelled subscriptions could stretch for miles. So why have I gone full circle back to the game I began with. What happened?
The problem as I see it began on March 16th, 1999, with the release of Everquest. Now don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun playing Everquest. It was a good game for its time, but it was also the biggest factor in the destruction of the genre. Everquest provided players with a much less open-ended experience than that of Ultima. The game's mechanics were less complex, the choices a player could make were more restricted, and the gameplay was more structured. All this would have been fine except for the fact that Everquest made a lot more money than Ultima. They were both a commercial success, but Everquest was an absolute jackpot for the producers. Now any company looking to fund a new MMORPG had to face a depressing fact: The production companies were a lot more likely to provide money for an Everquest style game than an Ultima one.
So the years rolled on, and many new MMORPGs began to hit the market. I purchased game after game eagerly anticipating the successor to Ultima; a game that would take Ultima's core principals and extend them to create an even greater immersive experience. Asheron's Call showed some promiss with a seamless 3D world and an open ended PvP server called Darktide. Siege warfare and harsh PvP were anticipated from Shadowbane. Star Wars: Galaxies offered an open style economic system, and a skill structure similar to Ultima. There was hope in the air, but that hope would quickly transform into despair.
In April 2000, Ultima Online, in an attempt to inscrease subscription numbers, begins a series of steps to make Ultima a lot more like Everquest. The world is also doubled in size, but not by new content. Instead they jusy create a second instance of the existing land. PvP is ruined. A year later, Dark Age of Camelot and Anarchy Online are released. Camelot is almost an exact replica of Everquest, except that it adds an extremely static and close-ended team PvP system. It becomes a huge commercial success anyways. Anarchy offers a fresh new Sci-fi theme into the genre, but I sensed trouble on my first trip to the instanced dungeons. This was touted as a feature. It seemed to me to be a cheap way for the developers to create less content and stretch that to more players.
Soon enough, Everquest clones were being released every few months. Asheron's Call II, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest II, Lineage II, City of Heroes. There was no room left in the market for another game just like Everquest right? I thought so, and just when I was convinced of it, World of Warcraft came out, proving me to be as nieve as they come. I played Warcraft day and night and watched the list of servers grow beyond belief. This game was hugely popular, but at its core, it still remained just a highly polished copy of Everquest. Sure it looked different, but the gameplay was largely the same. I couldn't understand why anyone thought it was so good.
So what's wrong with all these games? Well nothing if you like them. But if you are like me and yearn for open- ended MMORPGs, then none of these new games will really do it for you. What happened to having a challenge? Games should actually penalize death. Death!... Death should be bad. There is no need for zones and instancing. Ultima and Asheron's call, two of the first MMOs, had seamless worlds. Why is the technology for it absent today? Crafting should be as much a part of the game as hunting. You should be able to loot players that you kill, and have them loot you. A MMORPG should offer a feeling of being immersed, which means being part of a living, breathing world. Today's MMOs feel more like single player games than they do their predecessors. How about a skill based system for once and does every single game need to have classes and levels?
Today's games are over designed. Everything is laid out for you from level one so you are never in a situation too hard or too easy. You are guided on a path where you are faced with no challenge and constant repition. I want to be scared in a dungeon. I want the fear of being Pkd, and I want the exhilaration of success when I finally make it through these challenges. I'm sick of the expected, and this is why I find myself on the Age of Conan account management page today, cancelling my subscription.
Age of Conan is a terrible game. It is the most banal experience I've had in years. It will outsell almost every other current MMORPG and turn the developers into millionaires. It offers no interesting ideas of its own and simply repeats the same old crap we've seen for years. I don't blame the developers though, because this is apparently what people want. This is what people buy and love to play. I didn't understand it years ago and I certainly don't understand it today. The MMORPG market, despite a few brave souls like Eve, is devoid of interesting ideas. The open-ended MMO is dead. It died a long time ago. The genre is in a sad state and will continue to be so until some developer is brave enough to try something new. Until then, I'll be hiding out in Britannia, circa 1998. Sorry for the rant.
AoC is not the cause of de-evolution of mmorpg. WoW is. AoC is like WoW but at least trys to re-evolve it somewhat. its bringing back in FFA pvp, criminal system, and player looting, mounted combat. all things from UO, so AoC is alot more like UO than WoW. this thread should be called from UO to WoW.
Trammel did hurt UO, I think they know that to. By adding exactly double the land space is going to alienate people enough.
Sorry I disagree and I played at launch. still have my 8 yr old account just not active.
It helped a lot more then it hurt the population was already in a sharp decline and that was the original reason for Tram. If they had never added tram trust me UO would have only made it a few years like most today.
The devide was the thing that kept UO alive and yes it is still alive I know people who still play under the same tag I ran under with them. They have just had to expand to other severs to find the action is all.Now they just run 2 or three servers and move to wherever the action is. Not to mention look on a big server and there is still more people than there are in games like AO/DaoC/most freebee's /L2. and I'm sure I could think of more.
Personally I think it is a combination of fault and let me explain why.
developers see people screeming for more content and they try to keep up. While doing so people are bored and hanging around ala Wow style waiting for more "content" to run through.
/
That is why games suck now!! no more complicated then that Period.
Now that being said here is where I agree that games have devolved like OP said and what can be done.
Ala UO style and I don't mean everything I'm sure it would work in all pve aspects as well as pvp. But the devs need to get of the podium and start making interaction with the world not be a damn story book teller and sit in mommas rocking chair and spoon feed up the entertainment. That is the major change imo.
Make a world that is interesting and has "it all" and let US the players create the stories. Now this applies in both pve and pvp in the sense that yes the noobie care bear can sit over there in his nice little safe zone and never come mess with my big bad nasty fangs. Or he can change his mind after playing for 2 yrs and say the hell with it im going to try it.
now that also means that STIFF penalties need to involved he needs to be scared to come mess with my fangs if he thinks he will loose and the lose will cost him he will wait until hes rdy. (even though 99%of they time they never can be "rdy") But even then all that encompassed into the proper frame can and would work and everyone would be happy im sure we have just not seen it yet. I'm not one but care bears do have a place in MMO's as well as pvp'er and they should make it so in some way they support each other.
If a world like this is created with content and interaction and I'm sure a ton more that my mind is thinking of but I to hungry to write that would be a decent game I think. You need to own property you need to have things in the world that make it real.(books like someone said in UO) ) I ogged into uo to help a bud with something not to long ago and found a book created and a story written and left on a bookshelf in a tavern out in the middle of nowhere that was dated 2006 as an entry. THAT is emersion. And even though most pvp'ers would say that could care less about those things the pve'ers do and both combined make a world . not one or the other. If one or the other was ok everyone would be happy right now and we would be playing that game instead of coming here to talk about the devolution of games.
My 50 bucks worth!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Comments
Great reading. Agree with everything OP wrote about.
REALITY CHECK
I too have been waiting on that UO replacement. I looked at UO but they still have that Trammel nonsence which totally ruined it for me. Pre-Trammel was great.
I happily enjoy Eve until something that is released to capture my imagination that isn't a backwards step in the evolution of MMORPG.
I call bunk because my own "first love" MMO was Asheron's Call 1 and I don't think it was the best. I think it was on the right track with the huge world concept, but that it had major imbalances in gameplay that were often hit with the nerf bat machine from Hell to cover the tracks of its flaws. Then my "second love" MMO was SWG, the same issue arose. So, no, your argument is false in that if I exist and I do not hold Asheron's Call or SWG to some magically impossible esteem then it is entirely possible the individual's own argument can be assessed similarly. Therefore, attack the argument and not the person.
-- Brede
A lot of people are pointing to needing PvP in a sandbox like UO. You don't really need to have all out PvP to have an expansive world that allows you to advance in many different ways. Right now character building is very limited in games in that you go out and kill things. There should be other ways to advance a character then through combat IMO.
Quests could be so much more then they are. Right now we are steal dealing with the same static quests from the early MMOs, but with a more advance system to make things easier. The devs have yet to experiment with ways to make quests and mob spawning more dynamic in nature so that camping can be removed and quests are not always the same for everyone.
Overall big games seem to be stuck in the same mold for the most part. No one is trying anything new that hasn't been done before. AoC has tried a new combat system, but I don't find it any better then autoattack and click on ability when you need it. It just seems to bring you back to the days of spam clicking.
PVP ruins an otherwise good MMO. Developers need to create virtual worlds that challenge the player, stop relying upon the players to challenge themselves.
PVP in a level or gear based MMO will never be skill based, therefore not fair to the players. That will lead to the player base leaving. Since time is the factor that decides all fights, many players who have less time will leave the MMO. Eventually those with more time will get bored with having no 'newbs' to get easy kills from and they too will leave.
The solution is to build an MMO that is challenging due to AI. I envision a 6-12 person raid that is actually like a real D&D experience of old. Where its unpredictable, NOT scripted encounters. All ran by the gaming engine. Where player skill in their character will be rewarded. Where innovative player tactics will be rewarded. Where having the exact class makeup in a group isn't required. This is the future of the MMO genre if its to survive.
PVP in LOTRO, Guild Wars, and Eve Online, are the best ways of handling PVP in an MMO. In fact, LOTRO not known for its PVP, is one of the best. You're given an opportunity to be a monster at level 50 once you make level 10. This creates an instant enemy but avoids the issues regarding time spent leveling or gearing up breaking fairness.
The notion that no MMO can ever measure up to your "first love" is bullshit. I played two MMORPGs before I got into SWG and SWG is the only one I actually miss and want back. So I guess my third love was the best.
The pure and simple truth is that if I think a game sucks I won't play it. Every MMO since SWG has sucked. The only one which has come even remotely close is EVE but after Jump to Lightspeed I laugh at EVE's wretched RPG combat, their completely inane skill earning mechanic which removes all control from players, and the fact that I'm forever locked inside of a spaceship. Now, that criticism aside there was a lot EVE did well. The open PvP, the economics, et cetera.
So what impossible gaming standards would make me, a complete sandbox lover that thinks every MMO released in the past five years is a piece of shit, happy and maintain my long term interest in an MMO?
It boils down to five things:
1. Unified Game World (No instancing, no shards, no cutting corners)
2. Non-linear character advancement (no classes, no levels, no forcing me to quest and be a part of some retardly preordained storyline in which it makes little sense that my character would ever engage in)
3. Player Based Economies (all items player crafted, player ran services and stores, decent crafting, good loot mechanics in that the drops are only resources, components, or item enhancers).
4. Decent Character Customization
5. Decent Combat (more twitch based then RPG, so something akin to Tabula Rasa's system)
That's pretty much it. I'd even be willing to sacrifice #1, #4, and/or #5 and it wouldn't kill the game for me.
Is that so impossible? Hardly.
A lot of the way games are now is because of EQ.....i played it when it first came out or rather worked it....remeber how much work that game was and how everyone started calling it ever-crack lol lol....anyway it was more work then fun ......the devs picked up on that and out came DAOC and then WOW and etc etc...i miss the old eq before sony got to it.......anyway no more ever-crack just fun.....
I thought the OP wrote a terrific post, but like many others - I also strongly disagree with his call for Free for All PvP. There are simply times when all of us want to relax for a few minutes and not be worried about being ganked. Or about having to group up to do something as simple as enter a town. And there really is so much that could be done instead (but hasn't yet) with Realm vs. Realm combat. For example think of having full looting and losing territories instead of just Keeps. And perhaps even occasionally spicing things up on the home front with some meaningful Guild vs. Guild warfare as well...
But leaving that aside, in my opinion the recent arguments here about sandbox vs. quest centric linear MMORPGs are getting sidetracked. Simplified linear MMORPGs may initially sell a lot of boxes, but I really have a hunch that they may also be death as far as long term player retention goes. Because even a tired, hard working Joe Sixpack home from digging ditches all day long must crave at least some measure of variety and challenge in his gaming. And this is where the newer MMORPGs are now failing us so miserably.
To try and make my point, here's how I personally evaluated AoC. And why I chose not to even try it.
1.) Does AoC offer immersive opportunities for the explorer?
Apparently not. The game sounds more like a glorified cattle chute to me.
2.) Does AoC offer a choice rich character building process?
Again, no. And I'm not talking here about being able to create a topless female character. Or having kewl looking tatoos.
3.) Does AoC take a fine crafting and resource system, say of an old game like SWG, and improve upon that?
No.
4.) Does AoC have a diverse and interesting itemization, damage type and resistance system, say like the one in Asheron's Call 1?
No. It appears itemization in this game is amongst the most limited ever.
5.) Does AoC offer a multitude of choices as far as dungeons go? Again as an ancient game like AC1 managed to do so well.
No. It looks instead like the tedious EQ/Wow/Vanguard model to me. Offer one or two dungeons per 20 levels, and then let the players grind in there for days on end until they get finally their sword of +1% damage.
Now Funcom said straight out that they were creating a MMORPG centered entirely around combat. So I really don't fault them here. It's just that I can't fathom how anyone wouldn't soon be bored to tears doing combat alone and nothing else in these games. And why people keep trying to convince me these days, in all walks of life it's beginning to seem, that less really is more.
I like to look at it this way;
Do you remember how you felt the first time you were in love? Dont you still remember her/him? Still kinda feel the kiss on your lips? how sweet every moment was and how you loved unconditionally? Yes there might have been some flaws, but you were so in love, you didn't care.
I think its a bit the same with MMORPG's (or games in general). Many seem to feel that the first MMORPG they played was the best ever. Yes there were flaws, but you ignored them cause you loved the whole feel of the game. It doesn't really matter what game it was. You long for the vibe that game gave you. Like with love, there comes a time where the feeling goes away and you start looking for something new. Although you may have parted with bad feelings, you will start looking for something that gives you the same. And although you search long and hard, nothing compares (as Sinead O'Connor sings
). As every game differs, it will never be the same again, but you won't stop looking.
My example is Settlers 1. It was the first game i fell in love with. I played it night and day and couldn't get enough of it. Today im not sure what it was, but it felt great playing it. Today, every Strategie (or what ever the genre is) Game i buy/download the demo, i look for that feel, but it won't come back.
I hope i could make you understand what i mean
cheers
Games that are coming out now do not provide the 1 thing that makes mmorpgs great. Immersion.
From the first time I logged into UO I had no clue what was going on. Even with experience and being familiar with Ultima lore I was disoriented for a few hours while I tried to figure even basics things out. Competition for spell reagents was one of the craziest things I remember. PvP was even crazier but those who stuck with the game, formed friendships, joined guilds, worked together, and learned the games mechanics could actually accomplish anything in the game. Dying was not a big deal because you didn't lose skills. People could ressurect and if you knew what you were doing you could easily replace all your lost items. Risk vs. reward was a major part of the game. People who really tried became skilled players instead of the instant gratificationers who flooded the messageboards demanding the game be changed to fit their pop-o-matic needs.
Skills increased but noone really knew what to do and there were no shortcuts/short attention span things you could do to max anything out. Grandmasters in skills were rare and really meant something back then. If you really put the time and effort into your character it really showed.
These days people want instant gratification, they want to max everything out as quickly as possible. As time goes by we will see more mmorpgs slowly turn into PS3/XBOX type rpg with little or no interaction between people. Everyone will be able to solo their way to max everything and never even see another person. People are slowly accepting that any type of grouping is considered forced and is looked down on.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
To quote the Matrix:
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith
Sorry just to play the devils advocate here that is the first thing that popped in my mind when I read your paragraph (text changed to red). I do have to admit I fit into your stereotype of the 19-29 age group (and yes it's very much a stereotype). I'm not defending or attacking anyone but there are people who enjoy games like that; my personal favorite MMO was AC1 and the only reason I quit was because the community disappeared. I personally play online games because I enjoy the interaction with other players; that is something lost in the new batch of MMO's, there is no "NEED" to interact. Also before anyone attacks me for needing attention, stop, I have all the attention I need (or want for that matter) but I enjoy my games when the wife is at work and I find single player games boring; no game has an AI that can match the fun factor or challenge of a person.
Just my 2cp
I will admit I did not read every post in this tread but a lot of issues where touched on that I had a semi opinion about but the two that I felt are most prominent are these.
1. Although everyone freaked about the addition of Tram in UO I personally think is was the perfect devision. You had the choice of gating to Tram and being in a consentual only environment (faction wars)yet could gate off to Fel(I still remember the sound bite for it) and be in a FFA no holds bared kick you in the face world. With FFA looting corpse camping griefing and the like and not one person here that played can say that the "noobs" didn't go off and try to steal spawns. They did it when they thought they where rdy. Or had the gear or w/e made them think they where rdy. (usually wern't) Creating imersion and real politics and conflict.
All needed in an MMO to maintain longevity.These are also the things that make EvE such a good sandbox type game to this day it is still the choice of the player where to be and play and what chances to take. By making mob's with lvl's and such its easy to decide if its worthwhile or not before you even strike. Its like saying I'mma go rob someone and be rich but then picking a bum to rob cause it easy. If I'm going to rob someone I'm not going to rob a bum cause I know it would be easy. WHY?? CAUSE HE HAS NO MONEY!!
2 Death the hell we have been put into with this death deal. Now of course noone should die forever in a game but also I expect to loose more then 2 minutes cause of it as well. To see a timer pop up and tell me when I can play again is freaking retarted. Now I thing as the OP did that UO had the best system of having to find a priest. WHY?? you ask here goes.
As a ghost in UO you had one of 4 choices.
a. you ran around like a silly nilly looking for a wandering healer (viable option) but it could take you the rest of a Spawn to find one.(spawn being something like a boss fight) only to come back to a finished battle.
b. a friend or guildmate ressed you but as any ereal PVP'er will know as much as you like to help sometimes its just not the right timing or he may be to far or to busy getting ganked himself. Or for the blind leading the blind in most cases not even noticing.
c. You ran back to town and this option was a good one IF you wern't a red(murderer) I was on 4 of my 5 characters so you can imagine how often I had that option.
d. You loged out till later and then came back to look for a res from one of the above mentioned way's.(frequent case for reds to be sitting at the public gate)
Now all that being said that is the system that Like the op I've been around the MMO ballpark a while feel was the most apropriate to give the feel of a n RPG IMO.
I could go on nd on about other thing with MMOS today but let me leave it at MMORPG's are not made anymore. We and now left with MOP's and I don't like mopping so for the time being I'm going to go out and get some sun this summer.
I may come back and rant about other thing I see in this post but mostly just agree with the OP.Bye for now time to go home and hook up my date for tonight with the 911.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
Death penalties is what he was referring to. Most games have no major penalty for death. Most have none but a stat decrease for 5 min or less. I'm all for it simply because i prefer that hostile action in game come with a risk in many ways. Should you attack me with your best sword out of your so desire to grief me unprovoked that you might just lose that uber weapon. Was your cause worth your loss if you will. Rinse and repeat PVP is boring. Most people dont like to lose all they have on them like in Shadowbane but hey smart players banked items of high value so as to not lose them. Added a thrill factor to the game trying to get your goods to town alive lol.. The penalty for death was a looted corpse.
To bad most players don't want that risk making most PVP in games totally pointless.
the way i see it there should be NO penalties at all in any game, i really don't see any point to them. That being said i did like the way UO did it, always liked the turning into a ghost, but hated losing gear, i always thought it silly ppl would get really good gear then just have to bank it & never even use it.
To the OP, that is the exact problem with the genre. Thank you for eloquently publishing a very cold truth
This is a great thread. I wished I had found it earlier. Very interesting to read all of this.
To all the people who say that their first MMO is there favorite, I agree with you to some extent. However, My first MMO was UO, but EQ is what really got me hooked. Yes, it was called EverCrack for a good reason, but UO was a blast has there was always something to do in that game. To all the peole that WoW is their first MMO, yall really missed out on some awesome games!
Everything changes though. Just look society changed since 1997. Rock and Roll used to be huge for young people. How many young people listen to that nowdays. It is more or less dead now. Instead, I hear the Boom Boom of cars going down the road with words I cant even understand. Maybe not the best example, but yea everything changes has in with MMOs. Maybe one day someone will make a UO style game with 3d graphics, and we will be happy. I would just be happy with a game that I can really get into and play for the next five years. Has I did with EQ and DAoC.
OP is spot on, i played UO and have spent the years looking for a new MMo to really settle on
Ultima Online, Legend of Mir, Dragon raja....all crappy graphical games etc...however they have the excitement for a totaly open world, with no crummy instances
I miss old school UO terribly bad. People tell me it's just because it was my first MMO, screw that, it was the BEST game ever created(tied with monkey island series). It was a completely immersive sandbox of fun and suspense. In my opinion if you started MMOs during the EverQuest phase or later and never got to experience old school UO before EA got their hands on it, then you are a ruined MMO player in my book. I don't mean to sound elitist but it just is what it is.
You just havent got to experience:
1.) A completely open-ended world where there are NO RULES, LEVEL RESTRICTIONS, GEAR RESTRICTIONS, ELITIST GEAR CRUNCHING RESIL MUNCHING SPEC INSPECTING TARDS.
2.) A crafting system that actually DROVE the economy into full gear ( before EA ruined it). Imagine actually knowing and forming a relationship with a local blacksmith player. Imagine you running up and him knowing that you usually log on about 10pm and want your favorite set of black plate and halberd. AUCTION HOUSES NEED TO GO, crafting needs to be reinvented and should be one of the main staples of the economy, NOT RAIDING. Raiding should be for GLORY and FUN <--- yeah.. I said it... FUN....
3.) A sense of danger. Yeah, imagine that?. Imagine if you die to a troll, that troll can rummage and loot something of yours, or worse yet... you die, someone can come and loot your gear because you're an idiot and bit off more than you could chew. UO bred the best players in the genre. I compare early UO players to those little kids who beat mike tysons punch-out without cheat codes ( which gave most gray hair) and the current stain of MMO players are those who used a game genie, then went to school lunch and bragged about it.
I am honestly at this point disgusted. Maybe I am getting too old for the genre, maybe the emo haircut undead rogue playin' acne filled little epeeners have won the battle. Maybe us old timers will never get our old UO style game back. I have waited patiently but I am growing tired of it.
i never played UO. will have to try it out.
great topic though
MMO Played-EQ, EQ2, WOW, DDO, GW, COH, Vanguard, WAR
MMOs Playing-LOTRO
UO was like SWG in that it had good ideas but it was sooo buggy and unplayable and while you look through your rose tinted glasses, I just remember people moaning at how bad it was and by the time they could have done anything about it they ruined what made it great and the graphics just looked OLD. Everquest also wasn't the destruction of the genre and I don't think World of Warcraft was too which both were fantastic games before. The problem with mmorpgs is they age and developers need to add new content and as soon as they rise the level cap the game gets destroid, cause all of a sudden the old world becomes useless. I still love the concepts of SWG but I don't want another one because I just want my SWG pre cu back.
It's not all bad though I found EVE and I have to say it's the best mmorpg ever made IMO and hopefully some flaws I find with it will be fixed in later expansions because I would like some kool PVE.
----------------------------------------
Talking about SWG much?
I agree with the OP as well. Although trammel didnt kill it, it did hurt it. AOS expansion finished it off though when they changed it Diablo. Trammel did hurt UO, I think they know that to. By adding exactly double the land space is going to alienate people enough. They could have just made some trammel servers with a swtich or something and left a few pvp servers. I think most people would have liked this approach better than what it present.
Another thing is each and every game that has come out after EQ with the exception of a handful of games have all had the same formula. Pick a class, kill 10, 20, 1000000 rats etc..... then go on big group raids to get shiney stuff. And while I dont enjoy this type of gameplay it seems a lot more people do considering the sheer amount of players in WOW and games like it.
I miss old UO, I have played on some free servers since its demise but it just dont capture the magic it once did. The truth is, it is very dated. They could come out with a new UO type of game that has its ruleset etc.... But I wouldnt hold my breath considering the success of EQ, WOW And all the WOW Clones.
I agree with every sentence of the op.
thanks for sharing.
"You must be either retarded or a fanboi..."
AoC is not the cause of de-evolution of mmorpg. WoW is. AoC is like WoW but at least trys to re-evolve it somewhat. its bringing back in FFA pvp, criminal system, and player looting, mounted combat. all things from UO, so AoC is alot more like UO than WoW. this thread should be called from UO to WoW.
Dear Game Developers,
Nerf Rock.
Paper is fine though.
Regards,
Scissors.
Sorry I disagree and I played at launch. still have my 8 yr old account just not active.
It helped a lot more then it hurt the population was already in a sharp decline and that was the original reason for Tram. If they had never added tram trust me UO would have only made it a few years like most today.
The devide was the thing that kept UO alive and yes it is still alive I know people who still play under the same tag I ran under with them. They have just had to expand to other severs to find the action is all.Now they just run 2 or three servers and move to wherever the action is. Not to mention look on a big server and there is still more people than there are in games like AO/DaoC/most freebee's /L2. and I'm sure I could think of more.
Personally I think it is a combination of fault and let me explain why.
developers see people screeming for more content and they try to keep up. While doing so people are bored and hanging around ala Wow style waiting for more "content" to run through.
/
That is why games suck now!! no more complicated then that Period.
Now that being said here is where I agree that games have devolved like OP said and what can be done.
Ala UO style and I don't mean everything I'm sure it would work in all pve aspects as well as pvp. But the devs need to get of the podium and start making interaction with the world not be a damn story book teller and sit in mommas rocking chair and spoon feed up the entertainment. That is the major change imo.
Make a world that is interesting and has "it all" and let US the players create the stories. Now this applies in both pve and pvp in the sense that yes the noobie care bear can sit over there in his nice little safe zone and never come mess with my big bad nasty fangs. Or he can change his mind after playing for 2 yrs and say the hell with it im going to try it.
now that also means that STIFF penalties need to involved he needs to be scared to come mess with my fangs if he thinks he will loose and the lose will cost him he will wait until hes rdy. (even though 99%of they time they never can be "rdy") But even then all that encompassed into the proper frame can and would work and everyone would be happy im sure we have just not seen it yet. I'm not one but care bears do have a place in MMO's as well as pvp'er and they should make it so in some way they support each other.
If a world like this is created with content and interaction and I'm sure a ton more that my mind is thinking of but I to hungry to write that would be a decent game I think. You need to own property you need to have things in the world that make it real.(books like someone said in UO) ) I ogged into uo to help a bud with something not to long ago and found a book created and a story written and left on a bookshelf in a tavern out in the middle of nowhere that was dated 2006 as an entry. THAT is emersion. And even though most pvp'ers would say that could care less about those things the pve'ers do and both combined make a world . not one or the other. If one or the other was ok everyone would be happy right now and we would be playing that game instead of coming here to talk about the devolution of games.
My 50 bucks worth!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -