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Good news, the next generation MMORPG is soon to be released, it's a little too hardcore though!
Galaturc
Member Posts: 48
The source of the problem is not if WAR is the clone of WoW or not. The most competitive games that are released or in production are feeling the necessity to repeat or imitate some successful aspects of previously released games. I believe there is nothing wrong with that. Having played WoW for 4 years, played AoC for 3 months, and now playing WAR beta for a few days. I see the good and bad parts in all those three games.
Folks, I've played UO for 10 years, still playing it in some free server, then played DAoC and ShadowBane for 3-4 years each before WoW and WoW-alike games. In my experience, I find WAR and AoC considerably similar to WoW in respects of talents, leveling and grind based system. WAR's PvP, PvM, even its RvR system are not satisfactorily revolutionizing the genre. If you are expecting anything of such novelty, you will not find it in WAR. What will you find in WAR? WAR is an evolution; a much better PvP then WoW, much stable version of AoC, still the same leveling and grind issues even if it's less PvE oriented.
However, your concerns and the behavior of seeking for some change from the main-stream MMORPG is well understood. You're tired of the same UI, where you see the minimap, a console which just helps you choose from your available skills in which in order to kill a mob, all you have to do is stand close to it, and click, wait for its cooldown timer, then click another skill, and this goes on and on and on. We're so used to this same rotation of clicks that we call this PvP now.
What happened to aiming, timing your own swings or shots yourself, moving, rolling mouse so that your sword will collide with your opponent, blocking him phsyically so he will not run through you and escape? Slicing your own comrade accidentally, or healing your opponent? Attacking anyone, anywhere.. No forced boundaries, no illogical limitations on what to attack..
At the end, who wins a fight in these main-stream game PvPs?
First and foremost, you have to have the best equipment, epics/purples/rares.. what ever you wanna call them.. You need them to survive when facing versus another opponent with the same level equipment, otherwise most of the time you stand no chance. How do you get it? You have to grind dungeons (or battlegrounds). At the end, you'll spend excessive amounts of time to get these required items, that's a given fact. It's so sad that everyone is so accustomed to this fact, that equipment in a game is so much higher in our priorities list. What I don't understand is, so many of you don't even question the fact that you're playing for that uber equipment during the whole game, and rate a game if it also gives you any entertainment in the meanwhile or not. So, the fun factor while your grinding comes after the "grinding" in your priorities list when "grinding" (not playing) a game.
How would a revolutionary game overcome grinding? By making the game less item oriented, and base it on the player skill. A revolutionary game should not be based on equipment, PvP should not be decided by the best weapon/armor or by the level of the character, it should be decided by the "skill" of the player. Don't feel bad if you wanna spend your many hours to be better at PvP, you'll still be successful if you've spent 40 hours weekly to get there. The difference is, you've improved yourself, not your toons equipment. You've spent time to improve your skills to control your swings to meet your opponent, or your skill to aim with your character. You should enjoy killing other players who may have acquired that better equipment with no skill, if you have the player skill and know how to use the skills of your character, you should be able to beat any end game character if he is not skilled enough to beat you. You should be able to loot your opponents freely, and if you brought your expensive sword to the fight and got killed, face the consequences. Wouldn't that give us a risk management? A revolutionary game should force us to take these kinds of decision when PvP'ing, that is what's called "hardcore".
What else you need to survive in PvP in these main-stream games? You have to know your enemy, since they are from one of several given classes (namely, the tank, the healer, and the ranged/melee DPS guy), it's easy to understand what type of enemy they are by their looks. How funny is that? Well, if that doesn't help, you can always check their health bars, because it is written there for you. Great. Now that you know what level your enemy is (so you know his capabilities/DPS rate and how much health and mana he/she has), and you have to be within 5 levels of that guy if you really stand any chance to beat him, it is now the time to remember how to counter him/her with your given talents. We're calling this PvP? Doesn't that feel more like a card game, anyone watched one of those Asian cartoons (ie. Picachu - my 5 year old cuisine likes them); just a little bit more complex when all the classes and talent trees considered in these "PvP" games. You don't need any personal hand skills, you don't even have to move your toon around in the world most of the time, perhaps except for the time when you need to keep a distance from your opponent. Click the right button when its cool down is over, and watch your opponent die - or in other words, "I've picked you Picachu - go get'em" when its 30 second cool down is over. The level system fails so bad that you stand no chance against some "MMORPG disabled person" if he is 5 levels above you. If you're a healer, you are stuck to healing. what about hybrids, what about other gaming styles that are not enforced by the game designers? Why are we not allowed to select our own set of skills from a pool, and see if its working better? If you're a warrior (tank etc), how stupid is it that you are not equipped with some healing skills/spells? Why have we been limited to this idioticity? Stray away from the common classes and find out if you fail miserably or develop a unique playing style which only fits you, not the other several thousands who followed the exact same talent tree, have the exact same equipment sets and use the same tactic for the same opponent class. You see how limiting that is?
Just take a look at your favorite toon in your favorite game, and tell me that it's unique.. other than its name and the way his facial hair/horns or skin looks. Everyone wants that uber tier set only designed for their class.. Wooo, such a big deal.. You and the rest of all the other several thousands of players (or millions in WoW) who have the same class will eventually own that set, or dream about owning it. And you'll be so unique, stand different among others.. 
Is it a joke that all 10 million WoW players are looking forward to get that one single epic set designed for their own character that will finally give them "the edge"? We really need a revolution! We need a game that will set us free of these item based worlds.
The game world you're given; a lot of junk quests that you're forced to move around the map (most of them useless grinds). Take a look at your map in your favorite MMORPG, can you see the roads? You're most likely to follow them, or you'll hit a hidden wall/mountain that is impassable, that you have to move around them to get a quest/grind done. Are you aware that there is a level requirement for each of those areas, that if you try passing through that region as a lowbie, you're as good as dead. Don't you see how the developers herding you around the maps to get what they want to be done. How fun! We have instances in these games that takes away from any dangerous interactions with the rest of the world, you and the select few mobs, or you and the select few other players. Thanks for covering our backs developers.. Thanks for limiting our freedom of interaction. Why do they need these instances, or these hidden walls? Because the game is based on levels.. The herding is required, becuase you won't stand a chance against a mob 10 levels above you, cause the game is not based on your personal skills. Because, you can't be successful in these games if you have not spend 150 hours with that specific character, even if you've spend other 1500 hours with another character in the same account. These games unfortunatly have no memory, your player skill matter just a little bit. Your toon is everything (and the item you hold with him), and the experience you as a player gained playing the game means "nothing". In the next generation game, when you really know the game, you won't have to be considered as a newbie when you are playing another low level alt, when you really mastered a character, you should master your own player skill on that game. Therefore when you start a new character, you'll be limited less to your toon, since the game will be more player skill oriented and not level or equipment of the character. Therefore, even your opponent has created his character two days ago, you'll ve careful and not be decieved of his looks, you'll have more dangerous opponents, and the armor or weapon he uses is less of a signifier of his threat level. Isn't that more exciting? The revolutionary game should take the instances away from the map as well as the hidden walls. Therefore, the same crowd should share and fight for the limited amount of mob resource a server has to offer. You want a hardcore game, there you go.
The uber items? How about if you could create them? What is wrong with these main-stream games' crafting limitations? How come we suppose to grind all month for that epic set? If we're playing this game, and we're using those items, how come we can't craft them? Doesn't that take a lot from a game for the role playing gamers who like to play crafters? In a revolutionary game, the crafters should be capable of crafting any endgame item that a character needs. Purples? Epics? No more soul items. You should be able to loose them (or loot them from other players), but you should easily buy or craft them back as well. That is how a game would be less item based. Two birds in one stone; give the crafters all the freedom AND the respect they deserve, and save the players from this cursed grinding mentality. Perfect solution for two huge problems!
What is RvR if you can not control and destroy other sides castle, keep or houses? And again, why are you enforced in to which realm you will be part of? Oh, because of the limited race and class system. I want a game that can let me be who I want to be, not be dependent on the race I choose, I should still become part of that alignment I fell I belong to, if I want to be able to kill my own race, I should be given that freedom - facing the penalty of being hunted by my race. I want to see epic battles/sieges that changes the politics and regional controls of the map I'm playing in. There should be sieging weapons and huge ships for naval battles and they should be controlled by players that can hold 100s of players at a time and sail around the world, attack coastal fortresses and take them over. That is way past RvR, such a system would be much more dynamic, because players would decide where a realm starts and ends, not the developers. They decide on their alignments, they decide which race they should let into their clans, and which clans/races to fight against.
Every new game in this new genre will claim that they are different, unfortunately, big companies play towards a WoW player base. AoC failed, WAR did what WoW could do in WoW2.
Now if you're looking for a revolution, you have to look into other games by independent companies; the best and the foremost example that I'm looking forward to play now is Darkfall. All the problems I've addressed, and revolutionary ideas/solutions I've mentioned in this post that are different from the main-stream MMORPGs are a few of the many countless Darkfall features, and they are realizing their promises as you can see in their videos.
Aventurine, the developers of Darkfall have officially announced a release date for the "first time" in 7 years of their game development (7 years can easily be considered common when compared to other MMORPG games), and the release will be the end of 2008. The beta will begin in October, and you can sign in their website: Darkfallonline.com. They've also released a 17 minute gameplay video recently, and you can download it from their website as well.
Thanks for reading, and good luck on your ventures of seeking the next MMORPG you've been looking for, hopefully you will also check in to Darkfall.
Comments
Viva la Darkfall. A truly revolutionary game.
"...becoming a manslayer is only a matter of inverting youself..."
Darkfall FTW And yes Im over 20 and use the term carbear. Get over it.
Wall of text is long, but yes I agree. There has been a severe shortage of Darkfall-type games over the past few years.
Nice wall of text.
For the record, nobody knows if Darkfall will be any good. How many in-development games were thought to be the "second coming" and then fell flat on their faces?
Darkfall does have a great set of features for hardcore sandbox fans, and I want to see it succeed as much as the next person. We can all hope for the best, but honestly, the odds are against it, so don't get your hopes up. Sooner or later, someone will make it.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I am the only person who is sick of hearing the hype from darkfall fanbois (AkA: darkfellows). Can't you darkfellows keep your darkfall post on the dark fellow forum?
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I fully agree with the op. Unfortunately the majority of gamers these days do not.
They like their grinds.
They like their epic lootz.
They like being herded.
They don't want risk.
They don't want to think.
They don't want actual skill to be the deciding factor in pvp.
Sad but true
AoC didn't fail because it innovated. It had a great launch but is going down the toilet because of horrible execution.
The same can be said about just about every other game that supposedly innovated, the possible exception being Eve.
At the end of the day, Darkfall will be successful if it delivers 75% of what it has promised, and does so with polish and reliability. If it doesn't do that, it will fail, just like 80% of other MMOs that are released.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Yes it's true, but there are more than enough different kinds of gamers in the market to support both WoW, and Darkfall as well as the whole long tail of MMORPGs. The OP's arguments are strong. Sadly all the great posts in the world won't get Darkfall on the market any sooner. Hopefully all the interest in Darkfall and post like the above will convince developers that they can risk doing some
Create a signature for your guild on gamerDNA.com
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Yes a full loot PVP game is going to be big... dream on. Look at the Eve player base that is as big as it is going to get.
To the OP it was a long wall of text, based off an opinion of an old UO player. With your track record of games I can see you like hardcore PvP with consequences, but alas you are a minority. I hope you enjoy your world, that is if it exist be it due to lies, technical problems, or otherwise.
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Yes a full loot PVP game is going to be big... dream on. Look at the Eve player base that is as big as it is going to get.
To the OP it was a long wall of text, based off an opinion of an old UO player. With your track record of games I can see you like hardcore PvP with consequences, but alas you are a minority. I hope you enjoy your world, that is if it exist be it due to lies, technical problems, or otherwise.
EVE has 250k plus subscribers, I don't know what planet your from but that is successful, especially when you consider its been high and increasing and will continue to do so for a long time.
I am an Ex Eve'r myselft, Loved the game for nearly 3 years and will probably return, just needed a rest. But if Darkfall is going to be released who knows
No, why can't you carebears keep to yours? And yet we keep getting them on our forums, it's only fair to post our opinions back.
Darkfall "fans" have a perfectly legitimate reason to post and support the game: the more excitement that gets built for the game, the more likely it is that it will succeed. They may be a little overly optimistic, but optimism never hurt anyone.
The "anti-Darkfall" haters, on the other hand, have no good reason to be the wankers they insist on being. I think it's safe to say that most DF fans, and most of the people they are trying to reach, are well aware of the fact that Darkfall is not guaranteed to be a good game, and may very well fall flat on its face. So you nimrods aren't really serving any purpose other than to make asses of yourselves.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Actually Games Workshop has been spelling Ork with a "k" for many years now.
Oh, and the first part of your post makes Darkfall look like a cult.
That was a very very long wall of text that basicly just says what has already been put forward by endless numbers of people. I agree with it all mostly but it really isnt anything we havent seen in a large number of posts for years.
There are 4 other mmos that I am paying attention to and they are Eathrise, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and Crusades. All of those games look very promising and appear to be a hell of a lot better than Darkfall and much more interesting and original. I like what Darkfall is offering but have my doubts about its ability to succeed.
I feel that Darkfall is the lowly footsoldier that will arrive first and fall quickly in battle but it will pave the way for one of the other 4 superior warriors to take the field and become king. Footsoldier or not though it will probably have more impact on the mmo genre than any of the other standard mmos.
Considering the size of Aventurine, by the time the game does come around to launch, they will have like 5 customer service representatives for all of North America.
Woo.
Can we keep the fanboyism in Darkfall forum?
There was a supposedly skill-based PvP game. It was called Fury. It didn't do very well.
only reason i dont like darkfall, is because of the community. And threads like this.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Yes a full loot PVP game is going to be big... dream on. Look at the Eve player base that is as big as it is going to get.
To the OP it was a long wall of text, based off an opinion of an old UO player. With your track record of games I can see you like hardcore PvP with consequences, but alas you are a minority. I hope you enjoy your world, that is if it exist be it due to lies, technical problems, or otherwise.
EVE has 250k plus subscribers, I don't know what planet your from but that is successful, especially when you consider its been high and increasing and will continue to do so for a long time.
I am an Ex Eve'r myselft, Loved the game for nearly 3 years and will probably return, just needed a rest. But if Darkfall is going to be released who knows
The comment was never pointed towards you, it was pointed to the poster that said Darkfall would smash WoW. It helps to read replies and see who they are appointed to. Of course 250k plus is successful, but it is not WoW successful like the other poster commented on. /facepalm
Ermmmm.......what about the rest of the planet? Darkfall isnt an "America only" game is it?
Not all of us are generation gimmie Obama voters Blodpls. Some of us still want quality and not just mindless grind. There is hope you just have to take the *cough* right path.
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Yes a full loot PVP game is going to be big... dream on. Look at the Eve player base that is as big as it is going to get.
To the OP it was a long wall of text, based off an opinion of an old UO player. With your track record of games I can see you like hardcore PvP with consequences, but alas you are a minority. I hope you enjoy your world, that is if it exist be it due to lies, technical problems, or otherwise.
EVE has 250k plus subscribers, I don't know what planet your from but that is successful, especially when you consider its been high and increasing and will continue to do so for a long time.
I am an Ex Eve'r myselft, Loved the game for nearly 3 years and will probably return, just needed a rest. But if Darkfall is going to be released who knows
The comment was never pointed towards you, it was pointed to the poster that said Darkfall would smash WoW. It helps to read replies and see who they are appointed to. Of course 250k plus is successful, but it is not WoW successful like the other poster commented on. /facepalm
I guess some people can't spot sarcasm, even if it tackles them, grabs them by the crotch, and sticks its tongue 4 inches up their nose.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I didnt need to even read the blob of copy/pasted text to know it was yet another Darkfall spam thread.
Hmmm cant you keep your game hyping and DF bashing off our forums...yea didnt think so...
Say what you will about DF and its development cycle, or what you think it may be on release...but OP makes some damn good points.
I played OB, got a lot of classes to lvl 10 and had some fun, but its the same old same old and as a player who has been there done that in MMOs, there was absolutly no sense of accomplishment or individuality.
I would rather wait in hope for DF than play the same game over and over with a new IP and slightly better graphics.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
No, why can't you carebears keep to yours? And yet we keep getting them on our forums, it's only fair to post our opinions back.
Darkfall "fans" have a perfectly legitimate reason to post and support the game: the more excitement that gets built for the game, the more likely it is that it will succeed. They may be a little overly optimistic, but optimism never hurt anyone.
The "anti-Darkfall" haters, on the other hand, have no good reason to be the wankers they insist on being. I think it's safe to say that most DF fans, and most of the people they are trying to reach, are well aware of the fact that Darkfall is not guaranteed to be a good game, and may very well fall flat on its face. So you nimrods aren't really serving any purpose other than to make asses of yourselves.
ooh i need to read threads sometims before I post...this gentleman said what I was thinking better than I did
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
So to overcome grind...you replace the gear grind with a skill grind?
gotcha.
Venge Sunsoar