Sounds interesting, I'd probably have stuck around if this was in BC. But sadly it wasn't and I have no real desire to level to 80.
That and I get to do this kind of stuff in WAR from level 1. Still makes me giggle with glee that I can RVR at level 1!
What you failed to mention (and maybe don't know) is that the exact same seige mechanisms are used in each tier. So yeah, you get to RvR at level 1, but you'll be doing the same mechanisms at endgame. The entire game is like brackets of WSG... yeah, your character gets new skills and hps, but you will be 'capturing' the exact same things, the exact same way the entire time you play the game. Also warhammer doesn't have moveable seige weapons, player controlled vehicles OR flying combat.
Warhammer takes about a 1/3 of the options of Lake Wintergrasp and makes it the majority of your gamemplay from 1- endgame. Lake Wintergrasp is like 1/3 of WOW's pvp options, and you still have a ton of pve options (warhammer has very little pve).
Not to mention how mind-numbing pvp is in Warhammer. Everyone races to the middle of the field, does as much damage as possible til they die, rez and repeat. I mean, seriously, everything I've seen so far is like a WSG match where everyone just fights mid-field... and you get experience for damaging different players, so you don't even really try to kill anyone, you just try to damage everyone on the screen.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Seige mechanics? You mean the keeps are the same throughout the tiers? If so, they aren't. The keeps change and the strategy to do one wont work on another. To give you an example.
The keep in Marshes of Madness is surrounded by a waterless moat, and the only straight shot to the keep is a bridge choke point. So you have two choices; try to weather the assault and push through the choke point, or hope they don't see you coming through the moat. Whereas the keep in Ostland is completely different. It's surrounded by hills on three sides, taking the advantage of high ground away from the defenders. The keeps in higher tiers only change more dramatically.
Now if you meant the fundamental way you siege the keeps. Like, put ram here, bash door here, kill Lord here, etc. They you'd be right...but...why fix what isn't broken? As to non-moving Siege weaponry, well...Mythic learned what a can of worms that can be from DAoC. There is a reason Siege is stationary.
Now if keep seiging isn't your cup of tea, there are Scenarios too. Each Scenario for each tier and each pairing is different. To put it in abstract terms, if you played WSG at level 11-70 in WOW, you would only play it from 1-11 in WAR. After you hit 12, you'd move onto a different Scenario.
Personally I think Lake Wintergrasp is a step in the right direction. I like the concept and I like how they are implimenting it. However for me, it's just too little too late. WoW was fun, and I enjoyed it. But I have no honest desire to come back.
What did mythic lean in Daoc about moveable seige weapons?
I think that is my favorite part of Lake Wintergrasp.. you actually feel like you are controlling the seige rather than just collecting 'nodes'. With moveable seige weapons and air attacks, it just feels more 'alive' rather than just an AB/EoTS type game.
I'm just curious what went wrong with them in DAoC.. because if there is one thing Blizzard is good at, it's stealing the best stuff from other games and making it better.
I think he wanted to say about WAR sieges: every Keep you enter through the door with a Ram. And every Keep you conquer in about the same kind of mechanism.
Hammering down a door with a ram whilst taking pot shots at the odd person who is stupid enough to come to far forward on the walls. Keep sieges consist of 1 group protecting either the postern gate or some other choke hold to interrupt keep resupply, and the rest hammering at the door. There is no way to siege the walls (Which is a great idea that’s been ignored), all the siege equipment do is take pot shots at the door or the burning oil on the wall that again is static and can not be deployed randomly, this means everyone knows where it is and it lasts about 2 mins before it is destroyed by siege equipment, which again is the only thing you really use Siege equipment for.
Once inside the keep it is very chaotic with the enclosed spaces causing all sorts of mayhem with line of sight. But once inside again it just becomes a rush to get up the stairs then uncontrolled mayhem starts. Once the keep lord is killed the NPC’s despawn and that’s the end of that.
As I told some other War fan already who reacted to the innovation used in world PvP in WotLK:
"Too little too late " can't be applied to WoW or Blizzard's game design, can it.
And talking of "little": take the WAR Dwarf/greenskin scenario: it has the size of about 10% of WSG. It consists merely of running from the GY in WSG up to your base (30-40 meter distance). IN the base buiding you'll find the 3 flags each 20 meters apart. How exciting. Add the lack of any CC and what do you get: ....
Now THAT is what I call 'little". I could design 3 dozen scenarios like that and sell them as independant BG's.
And BTW WSG or AB played with or without a horse is a complete different feeling. At least you get some "space" in those BG's.
To Poster Tsukieu. I think he wanted to say about WAR sieges: every Keep you enter through the door with a Ram. And every Keep you conquer in about the same kind of mechanism.
Alrighty then. Fair enough, although I'm still of the opinion of, 'Don't fix what isn't broken' about keeps. While I do like the idea of destructable walls and moveable siege, it presents a whole bevy of problems. It took DAoC years to fine tune it so it wasn't a mess. And even after those years and years of fine tunning they pretty much gave it up and decided to go to the drawing board and redesign it. So, WAR doesn't have those features to simplify things a bit.
"Too little too late " can't be applied to WoW or Blizzard's game design, can it.
Fair enough again. How about, 'A lot of stuff that doesn't really inspire me to want to return.'? Doesn't quite have the same sound bite appeal, but same idea. And talking of "little": take the WAR Dwarf/greenskin scenario: it has the size of about 10% of WSG. It consists merely of running from the GY in WSG up to your base (30-40 meter distance). IN the base buiding you'll find the 3 flags each 20 meters apart. How exciting. Add the lack of any CC and what do you get: .... Fun. Lots of fun. Seriously, there is no fighting mid-field in WAR Scenarios because there is no mid-field! Tightening up the Scenarios and putting objectives in places that aren't easily accessable from each other is a good move. Now THAT is what I call 'little". I could design 3 dozen scenarios like that and sell them as independant BG's. Ok, let me know when you do that.
Now if you meant the fundamental way you siege the keeps. Like, put ram here, bash door here, kill Lord here, etc. They you'd be right...but...why fix what isn't broken? As to non-moving Siege weaponry, well...Mythic learned what a can of worms that can be from DAoC. There is a reason Siege is stationary.
Care to explain what the problem is? I've never done any sieges in DAoC, nor have I ever heard of there being any problems with movable siege engines. I just want an idea of what problems this might present in Lake Wintergrasp.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Now if you meant the fundamental way you siege the keeps. Like, put ram here, bash door here, kill Lord here, etc. They you'd be right...but...why fix what isn't broken? As to non-moving Siege weaponry, well...Mythic learned what a can of worms that can be from DAoC. There is a reason Siege is stationary.
Care to explain what the problem is? I've never done any sieges in DAoC, nor have I ever heard of there being any problems with movable siege engines. I just want an idea of what problems this might present in Lake Wintergrasp.
The problem in DAoC with non-fixed siege was how easily it was exploited. The same with destructable walls. You would have people dropping 15 trebuchets at wailing on a wall for about 3 seconds before it dropped. Which either had to be repaired or the keep lost. That was later fixed so a wall could only have 4 things targeting it at once, but it still opened a page of griefers. Where people would destroy a whole high level keep, but not kill the lord. And force the owner of the keep to abandon it, or spend untold amounts of money repairing it.
I'm not sure you'll see these problems in Wintergrasp, as it's a bit different of a system though. From what I understand the keep is fluid, and changes hands almost hourly. So I'm pretty sure there will be no way to upgrade the keep, or incentive to do so if you can. In WoW, the keep is the goal. In WAR and DAoC the keep is a path to the goal. So all the problems DAoC had might be inconsquention to WOW. However I don't think they belong in WAR, as it's too similar to DAoC.
Yeah. Lake Wintergrasp isn't permanent, it resets every 4 hours. So you won't have the situation where people destroy the walls and force the owner to abandon or repair it. Also the seige weapons in WOW aren't that easy to come by. I doubt there will be 20 pounding away at a single part of the wall. In order for that to happen, the people who got them early would have to sit around idle for a long time waiting for others to get one... given that the combat only lasts 45 mins ( probably will be bumped to an hour though).. I doubt people will want to sit around very long.
The other poster cleared up what I meant by ' every tier is the same'. While you can say ' why fix what isn't broken'.. the same can be said for WSG and AB (the two most boring battlegrounds). As games get better, they get more innovative, and players will get bored with old mechanisms. I really think Warhammer is going to have a longevity problem with their seige mechanisms. Will players heart get racing the 100th time they knock down the same doors of a keep. That should be the ultimate experience of Warhammer, yet it will be something players have done at lvl 1 too. The seige mechanisms should get progressively more complicated as you move up in tiers.
And the previous poster was right about scenarios. While AB and WSG are pretty lame, all Warhammer did was take the worst WOW BGs and cut the map to a smaller size to make it faster. I didn't see a single scenario that was at all innovative. The new "Normandy" battleground in WOW is pretty amazing. I think for Warhammer being 4 years newer than WOW, it shouldn't have regressed to using WOW's worst BG's as it's inspiration.. it should have been pushing the envelope. I just honeslty don't see how a WOW pvper could switch to Warhammer and be limited to WSG/AB type games rather than come back to WOW for Normandy and Lake Wintergrasp.
You would have people dropping 15 trebuchets at wailing on a wall for about 3 seconds before it dropped.
I had a feeling it was something like that, but thanks for explaining in detail. I don't see any indication that this will be a problem in WotLK and the way sieging works in WAR doesn't inspire me one bit. I wanna fly those lovely biplanes and go down in flames... and laugh while doing so. Can't wait
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
so its a "world pvp" zone you can pvp in for 4 hours out of a 24 hour day? No thanks, this thing has failure written all over it.
Not sure why I am explaining this as i am sure it will fall on deaf ears, but here goes.
Every 4 hours the keep becomes attackable the side not in control of the keep need to take it down within 45mins aided by player controlled seige weapons and flying vechicals, the side in control of the keep need to hold off the attack , in short every 4 hours we get intense PvP action outside of this 45min there will be PvP with players fighting over rare resoucres on the zone.
In short players who got to wintergrasp are looking for PVP.
For those that want to know more Ill give you all an overview on how Lake wintergrasp works.
When wrath goes live one faction will control the keep. While a faction has control of the keep players of that faction get a random world buff +exp +hp +att, the faction also unlocks a 10/25man raid dungeons within the keep, players of the faction can also collect shards from bosses which can be used to purchase items at shard vendors. Every 4 hours neutrel NPC's spawn (possibly the scurge) and kick all players out of the keep, the keep is then given to a random faction. ( or maybe its given in turns I am not sure ). The faction not in control of the keep then have 45mins in which to assult and take the keep or lose the chance and wait another 4 hours. As players PvP they earn ranks (as a temp buff) the higher the rank to more powerful seige weapon they can command. Players must take and hold spawn points, seige factories and resource nodes to help them in the goal of taking the keep. The keep can be attacked on serval fronts ( see the picture ), by destorying the walls. There are 6 different seige weapons on offer from 1man vechicals to 5man APC's, there are also a number of flying vechicals. Bridges can be destroyed to tactical advantage. If your side is out numbered the side that is outnumbered get a +25% HP and +18% DMG buff. Rewards for participating are +2500Honor if you lose and +5000Honor if you win as well as the benefits posted in point 2. If when the keep is not being attacked and is in the safe 4 hour zone players from each faction can come to LW and collect/compete for rare resources. Note: all subject to change.
Now for me 2500honor (even for a lose) plus the honor gained from PvP is more than enough to get me to wintergrasp.
Wow Coffee, as always on top of things. Ty for those unable to join Beta.
This will rock for me as a pure PvP player. Just came back from a "massive" dwarf PvP WAR "scenario" catching the 3 flags on a surface the size of a one floored WSG camp. The size of a poststamp and still lagging as hell, the moment you fight with 8 players on screen.
But everyone just decides for himself: my moto is:
Every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK. And the lay-out and thoughts above show why.
anyone who is a pure pvp'er does not play wow lol.
The size of a poststamp and still lagging as hell, the moment you fight with 8 players on screen. Every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK. And the lay-out and thoughts above show why.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
Yeah. Lake Wintergrasp isn't permanent, it resets every 4 hours. So you won't have the situation where people destroy the walls and force the owner to abandon or repair it. Also the seige weapons in WOW aren't that easy to come by. I doubt there will be 20 pounding away at a single part of the wall. In order for that to happen, the people who got them early would have to sit around idle for a long time waiting for others to get one... given that the combat only lasts 45 mins ( probably will be bumped to an hour though).. I doubt people will want to sit around very long. The other poster cleared up what I meant by ' every tier is the same'. While you can say ' why fix what isn't broken'.. the same can be said for WSG and AB (the two most boring battlegrounds). As games get better, they get more innovative, and players will get bored with old mechanisms. I really think Warhammer is going to have a longevity problem with their seige mechanisms. Will players heart get racing the 100th time they knock down the same doors of a keep. That should be the ultimate experience of Warhammer, yet it will be something players have done at lvl 1 too. The seige mechanisms should get progressively more complicated as you move up in tiers.
And the previous poster was right about scenarios. While AB and WSG are pretty lame, all Warhammer did was take the worst WOW BGs and cut the map to a smaller size to make it faster. I didn't see a single scenario that was at all innovative. The new "Normandy" battleground in WOW is pretty amazing. I think for Warhammer being 4 years newer than WOW, it shouldn't have regressed to using WOW's worst BG's as it's inspiration.. it should have been pushing the envelope. I just honeslty don't see how a WOW pvper could switch to Warhammer and be limited to WSG/AB type games rather than come back to WOW for Normandy and Lake Wintergrasp.
Well the first High elf scenario is huge, and once you take both points this blast covers most of the area and you have to run or get killed. I thought it was a lot of fun and I hate BG's Im all about world PvP. The reason why they didn't push the envelope on the scenarios is the game isn't about battle grounds its about Wold PvP. Its about taking taking over the other territor not sitting in an instance battleground killing people for no good reason.
How exactly do you get siege weapons in WoW? I havent kept up on that since I quit playin the game for Warhammer.
The size of a poststamp and still lagging as hell, the moment you fight with 8 players on screen. Every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK. And the lay-out and thoughts above show why.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
My 2 cents .
Edited for spelling.
Look on the WAR forums: a lot of posts in WAR with the same issues of lag. Sometimes you see players "jumping" 5 to 10 meters in a flash, that's the lag I am talking about.
And I think it's not even client lag... it is definitely server lag.
The servers are capped at 500 people on each Chaos/Order side. So that is further proof.
Every normal MMORPG server these days can hold about 3000 players.
So they have to limit these numbers to 1/3 of the normal size just to reduce the server lag.
Why else would they limit it? This will create problems in the future: spreading out the population on less populated servers : like extreme long waiting times for scenarios to open up.
In my opinion that's the ONLY reason WAR makers left out the 4 other capitols: too few people per server to have room for 6 besieged capitols. With only 500 people maximum to spread out over 4 Tiers with 6 capitols was just asking too much.
Every copy sold of WAR is extra publicity for WotLK seems very logical btw. Just think a bit.
Just to clear up the 'timelines' for Lake Wintergrasp. This is still in beta
The fight starts every 4 hours, the attacking team has 45 mins to capture the keep. This includes building up seige weapons, destroying stuff etc. After the 45 mins, the winning side gets access to a bunch of features. There are also other features around that can still be fought over after the main event.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: many beta testers feel that the 4 hours is too long to wait. There are a ton of posts on the beta forums about it and I'd be willing to bet that it will be reduced to 2 hours. So basically half your time would be spent doing the actual battle, and half would be spent reaping the rewards of winning (access to vendors, boss mobs etc).
Yeah. Lake Wintergrasp isn't permanent, it resets every 4 hours. So you won't have the situation where people destroy the walls and force the owner to abandon or repair it. Also the seige weapons in WOW aren't that easy to come by. I doubt there will be 20 pounding away at a single part of the wall. In order for that to happen, the people who got them early would have to sit around idle for a long time waiting for others to get one... given that the combat only lasts 45 mins ( probably will be bumped to an hour though).. I doubt people will want to sit around very long. The other poster cleared up what I meant by ' every tier is the same'. While you can say ' why fix what isn't broken'.. the same can be said for WSG and AB (the two most boring battlegrounds). As games get better, they get more innovative, and players will get bored with old mechanisms. I really think Warhammer is going to have a longevity problem with their seige mechanisms. Will players heart get racing the 100th time they knock down the same doors of a keep. That should be the ultimate experience of Warhammer, yet it will be something players have done at lvl 1 too. The seige mechanisms should get progressively more complicated as you move up in tiers.
And the previous poster was right about scenarios. While AB and WSG are pretty lame, all Warhammer did was take the worst WOW BGs and cut the map to a smaller size to make it faster. I didn't see a single scenario that was at all innovative. The new "Normandy" battleground in WOW is pretty amazing. I think for Warhammer being 4 years newer than WOW, it shouldn't have regressed to using WOW's worst BG's as it's inspiration.. it should have been pushing the envelope. I just honeslty don't see how a WOW pvper could switch to Warhammer and be limited to WSG/AB type games rather than come back to WOW for Normandy and Lake Wintergrasp.
Well the first High elf scenario is huge, and once you take both points this blast covers most of the area and you have to run or get killed. I thought it was a lot of fun and I hate BG's Im all about world PvP. The reason why they didn't push the envelope on the scenarios is the game isn't about battle grounds its about Wold PvP. Its about taking taking over the other territor not sitting in an instance battleground killing people for no good reason.
How exactly do you get siege weapons in WoW? I havent kept up on that since I quit playin the game for Warhammer.
i am not sure how you get the seige weapons there are a number of seige work shops in wintergrasp that are capture'able but how the weapons spawn I am not sure, do yuo collect resources? or is it on a timer?, there are ranks required for each vechical, players earn rank buffs from PvPing.
here are some videos fomr the latest build. note LW is not finished and is beta servers are a lagg fest at peek. these 2 vids focus on fighting at the keep.
Just to clear up the 'timelines' for Lake Wintergrasp. This is still in beta The fight starts every 4 hours, the attacking team has 45 mins to capture the keep. This includes building up seige weapons, destroying stuff etc. After the 45 mins, the winning side gets access to a bunch of features. There are also other features around that can still be fought over after the main event. THIS IS IMPORTANT: many beta testers feel that the 4 hours is too long to wait. There are a ton of posts on the beta forums about it and I'd be willing to bet that it will be reduced to 2 hours. So basically half your time would be spent doing the actual battle, and half would be spent reaping the rewards of winning (access to vendors, boss mobs etc).
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
Just to clear up the 'timelines' for Lake Wintergrasp. This is still in beta The fight starts every 4 hours, the attacking team has 45 mins to capture the keep. This includes building up seige weapons, destroying stuff etc. After the 45 mins, the winning side gets access to a bunch of features. There are also other features around that can still be fought over after the main event. THIS IS IMPORTANT: many beta testers feel that the 4 hours is too long to wait. There are a ton of posts on the beta forums about it and I'd be willing to bet that it will be reduced to 2 hours. So basically half your time would be spent doing the actual battle, and half would be spent reaping the rewards of winning (access to vendors, boss mobs etc).
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
I wouldn't say it is whining. I'm undecided on the issue, but this is the point they are making.
1. If it stays at 4 hrs, that means for 3/4's of the time, the 'pvp zone' will be mostly used for pve type activites.
2. If a player can only play for 2 or 3 hours a night, that means there is a good chance they will miss the 'pvp' completely.... or there is a good chance the majority of their time will be 'waiting' for the pvp to start.
3. This part is the 'whiny' part. One of the reasons people think that they have such a long delay is so players have time to complete the pve objectives and utilize the 'rewards of winning'. Of course it doesn't sit well with the pvpers that they are being delayed so pvers can reap the rewards. (again, this is the whiny side of the argument, but it is still valid in a way).
4. Another part of the argument is that there currently isn't enough to do in Wintergrasp for the 3hrs of downtime. They are adding more quests and objectives.. but that will mostly be pve type stuff. I think a lot of pvpers don't want to feel like they have to leave the zone after the seige. Then it starts to feel more like a BG then open world pvp. You do LW, then you go run AV and Normandy a few times, then you come back and do LW again. .... that totally makes it feel like just another BG. A lot of players (myself included) want a true open-world pvp zone that has active pvp all the time.. that is not the case with 4hrs since most of the pvpers will leave after the seige to do bgs
Just to clear up the 'timelines' for Lake Wintergrasp. This is still in beta The fight starts every 4 hours, the attacking team has 45 mins to capture the keep. This includes building up seige weapons, destroying stuff etc. After the 45 mins, the winning side gets access to a bunch of features. There are also other features around that can still be fought over after the main event. THIS IS IMPORTANT: many beta testers feel that the 4 hours is too long to wait. There are a ton of posts on the beta forums about it and I'd be willing to bet that it will be reduced to 2 hours. So basically half your time would be spent doing the actual battle, and half would be spent reaping the rewards of winning (access to vendors, boss mobs etc).
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
I wouldn't say it is whining. I'm undecided on the issue, but this is the point they are making.
1. If it stays at 4 hrs, that means for 3/4's of the time, the 'pvp zone' will be mostly used for pve type activites.
2. If a player can only play for 2 or 3 hours a night, that means there is a good chance they will miss the 'pvp' completely.... or there is a good chance the majority of their time will be 'waiting' for the pvp to start.
3. This part is the 'whiny' part. One of the reasons people think that they have such a long delay is so players have time to complete the pve objectives and utilize the 'rewards of winning'. Of course it doesn't sit well with the pvpers that they are being delayed so pvers can reap the rewards. (again, this is the whiny side of the argument, but it is still valid in a way).
4. Another part of the argument is that there currently isn't enough to do in Wintergrasp for the 3hrs of downtime. They are adding more quests and objectives.. but that will mostly be pve type stuff. I think a lot of pvpers don't want to feel like they have to leave the zone after the seige. Then it starts to feel more like a BG then open world pvp. You do LW, then you go run AV and Normandy a few times, then you come back and do LW again. .... that totally makes it feel like just another BG. A lot of players (myself included) want a true open-world pvp zone that has active pvp all the time.. that is not the case with 4hrs since most of the pvpers will leave after the seige to do bgs
There will be pvp going on most of the time, leading up to the 45min event and after, not like every will be instantly teleported to LW 3mins before the fight starts people will be gathering and zerg groups will form a good while before the event and after.
LW could be a huge fail ony time will tell, but I am looking forward to it.
The size of a poststamp and still lagging as hell, the moment you fight with 8 players on screen. Every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK. And the lay-out and thoughts above show why.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
My 2 cents .
Edited for spelling.
Another 11 yr old WAR fanboi go back to your mindless zerg of a game, move along troll!!
Comments
What you failed to mention (and maybe don't know) is that the exact same seige mechanisms are used in each tier. So yeah, you get to RvR at level 1, but you'll be doing the same mechanisms at endgame. The entire game is like brackets of WSG... yeah, your character gets new skills and hps, but you will be 'capturing' the exact same things, the exact same way the entire time you play the game. Also warhammer doesn't have moveable seige weapons, player controlled vehicles OR flying combat.
Warhammer takes about a 1/3 of the options of Lake Wintergrasp and makes it the majority of your gamemplay from 1- endgame. Lake Wintergrasp is like 1/3 of WOW's pvp options, and you still have a ton of pve options (warhammer has very little pve).
Not to mention how mind-numbing pvp is in Warhammer. Everyone races to the middle of the field, does as much damage as possible til they die, rez and repeat. I mean, seriously, everything I've seen so far is like a WSG match where everyone just fights mid-field... and you get experience for damaging different players, so you don't even really try to kill anyone, you just try to damage everyone on the screen.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Seige mechanics? You mean the keeps are the same throughout the tiers? If so, they aren't. The keeps change and the strategy to do one wont work on another. To give you an example.
The keep in Marshes of Madness is surrounded by a waterless moat, and the only straight shot to the keep is a bridge choke point. So you have two choices; try to weather the assault and push through the choke point, or hope they don't see you coming through the moat. Whereas the keep in Ostland is completely different. It's surrounded by hills on three sides, taking the advantage of high ground away from the defenders. The keeps in higher tiers only change more dramatically.
Now if you meant the fundamental way you siege the keeps. Like, put ram here, bash door here, kill Lord here, etc. They you'd be right...but...why fix what isn't broken? As to non-moving Siege weaponry, well...Mythic learned what a can of worms that can be from DAoC. There is a reason Siege is stationary.
Now if keep seiging isn't your cup of tea, there are Scenarios too. Each Scenario for each tier and each pairing is different. To put it in abstract terms, if you played WSG at level 11-70 in WOW, you would only play it from 1-11 in WAR. After you hit 12, you'd move onto a different Scenario.
Personally I think Lake Wintergrasp is a step in the right direction. I like the concept and I like how they are implimenting it. However for me, it's just too little too late. WoW was fun, and I enjoyed it. But I have no honest desire to come back.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
What did mythic lean in Daoc about moveable seige weapons?
I think that is my favorite part of Lake Wintergrasp.. you actually feel like you are controlling the seige rather than just collecting 'nodes'. With moveable seige weapons and air attacks, it just feels more 'alive' rather than just an AB/EoTS type game.
I'm just curious what went wrong with them in DAoC.. because if there is one thing Blizzard is good at, it's stealing the best stuff from other games and making it better.
To Poster Tsukieu.
I think he wanted to say about WAR sieges: every Keep you enter through the door with a Ram. And every Keep you conquer in about the same kind of mechanism.
Hammering down a door with a ram whilst taking pot shots at the odd person who is stupid enough to come to far forward on the walls. Keep sieges consist of 1 group protecting either the postern gate or some other choke hold to interrupt keep resupply, and the rest hammering at the door. There is no way to siege the walls (Which is a great idea that’s been ignored), all the siege equipment do is take pot shots at the door or the burning oil on the wall that again is static and can not be deployed randomly, this means everyone knows where it is and it lasts about 2 mins before it is destroyed by siege equipment, which again is the only thing you really use Siege equipment for.
Once inside the keep it is very chaotic with the enclosed spaces causing all sorts of mayhem with line of sight. But once inside again it just becomes a rush to get up the stairs then uncontrolled mayhem starts. Once the keep lord is killed the NPC’s despawn and that’s the end of that.
As I told some other War fan already who reacted to the innovation used in world PvP in WotLK:
"Too little too late " can't be applied to WoW or Blizzard's game design, can it.
And talking of "little": take the WAR Dwarf/greenskin scenario: it has the size of about 10% of WSG. It consists merely of running from the GY in WSG up to your base (30-40 meter distance). IN the base buiding you'll find the 3 flags each 20 meters apart. How exciting. Add the lack of any CC and what do you get: ....
Now THAT is what I call 'little". I could design 3 dozen scenarios like that and sell them as independant BG's.
And BTW WSG or AB played with or without a horse is a complete different feeling. At least you get some "space" in those BG's.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
Care to explain what the problem is? I've never done any sieges in DAoC, nor have I ever heard of there being any problems with movable siege engines. I just want an idea of what problems this might present in Lake Wintergrasp.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Care to explain what the problem is? I've never done any sieges in DAoC, nor have I ever heard of there being any problems with movable siege engines. I just want an idea of what problems this might present in Lake Wintergrasp.
The problem in DAoC with non-fixed siege was how easily it was exploited. The same with destructable walls. You would have people dropping 15 trebuchets at wailing on a wall for about 3 seconds before it dropped. Which either had to be repaired or the keep lost. That was later fixed so a wall could only have 4 things targeting it at once, but it still opened a page of griefers. Where people would destroy a whole high level keep, but not kill the lord. And force the owner of the keep to abandon it, or spend untold amounts of money repairing it.
I'm not sure you'll see these problems in Wintergrasp, as it's a bit different of a system though. From what I understand the keep is fluid, and changes hands almost hourly. So I'm pretty sure there will be no way to upgrade the keep, or incentive to do so if you can. In WoW, the keep is the goal. In WAR and DAoC the keep is a path to the goal. So all the problems DAoC had might be inconsquention to WOW. However I don't think they belong in WAR, as it's too similar to DAoC.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
Ok, Thanks for explaining that.
Yeah. Lake Wintergrasp isn't permanent, it resets every 4 hours. So you won't have the situation where people destroy the walls and force the owner to abandon or repair it. Also the seige weapons in WOW aren't that easy to come by. I doubt there will be 20 pounding away at a single part of the wall. In order for that to happen, the people who got them early would have to sit around idle for a long time waiting for others to get one... given that the combat only lasts 45 mins ( probably will be bumped to an hour though).. I doubt people will want to sit around very long.
The other poster cleared up what I meant by ' every tier is the same'. While you can say ' why fix what isn't broken'.. the same can be said for WSG and AB (the two most boring battlegrounds). As games get better, they get more innovative, and players will get bored with old mechanisms. I really think Warhammer is going to have a longevity problem with their seige mechanisms. Will players heart get racing the 100th time they knock down the same doors of a keep. That should be the ultimate experience of Warhammer, yet it will be something players have done at lvl 1 too. The seige mechanisms should get progressively more complicated as you move up in tiers.
And the previous poster was right about scenarios. While AB and WSG are pretty lame, all Warhammer did was take the worst WOW BGs and cut the map to a smaller size to make it faster. I didn't see a single scenario that was at all innovative. The new "Normandy" battleground in WOW is pretty amazing. I think for Warhammer being 4 years newer than WOW, it shouldn't have regressed to using WOW's worst BG's as it's inspiration.. it should have been pushing the envelope. I just honeslty don't see how a WOW pvper could switch to Warhammer and be limited to WSG/AB type games rather than come back to WOW for Normandy and Lake Wintergrasp.
I had a feeling it was something like that, but thanks for explaining in detail. I don't see any indication that this will be a problem in WotLK and the way sieging works in WAR doesn't inspire me one bit. I wanna fly those lovely biplanes and go down in flames... and laugh while doing so. Can't wait
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I really LOVED playing Wings (World War I bi-plane combat simulator) on Amiga 500...can I tell you how many hours I put into that?
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
so its a "world pvp" zone you can pvp in for 4 hours out of a 24 hour day? No thanks, this thing has failure written all over it.
Not sure why I am explaining this as i am sure it will fall on deaf ears, but here goes.
Every 4 hours the keep becomes attackable the side not in control of the keep need to take it down within 45mins aided by player controlled seige weapons and flying vechicals, the side in control of the keep need to hold off the attack , in short every 4 hours we get intense PvP action outside of this 45min there will be PvP with players fighting over rare resoucres on the zone.
In short players who got to wintergrasp are looking for PVP.
Wow Coffee, as always on top of things. Ty for those unable to join Beta.
This will rock for me as a pure PvP player. Just came back from a "massive" dwarf PvP WAR "scenario" catching the 3 flags on a surface the size of a one floored WSG camp. The size of a poststamp and still lagging as hell, the moment you fight with 8 players on screen.
But everyone just decides for himself: my moto is:
Every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK. And the lay-out and thoughts above show why.
anyone who is a pure pvp'er does not play wow lol.
And "real men don't eat frosted flakes" el-oh-el...
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
That's why there are PvP EU and US and World Championships in WOW with price money of 200.000 dollars and professional WOW PVP players.
These WOW pro PVP fights are even broadcasted.
It is the same as saying there are no professional sports in the US and at the same time the Super Bowl is being broadcasted behind your back.
Nice try. Have another go.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
My 2 cents
.
Edited for spelling.
Well the first High elf scenario is huge, and once you take both points this blast covers most of the area and you have to run or get killed. I thought it was a lot of fun and I hate BG's Im all about world PvP. The reason why they didn't push the envelope on the scenarios is the game isn't about battle grounds its about Wold PvP. Its about taking taking over the other territor not sitting in an instance battleground killing people for no good reason.
How exactly do you get siege weapons in WoW? I havent kept up on that since I quit playin the game for Warhammer.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
My 2 cents
.
Edited for spelling.
Look on the WAR forums: a lot of posts in WAR with the same issues of lag. Sometimes you see players "jumping" 5 to 10 meters in a flash, that's the lag I am talking about.
And I think it's not even client lag... it is definitely server lag.
The servers are capped at 500 people on each Chaos/Order side. So that is further proof.
Every normal MMORPG server these days can hold about 3000 players.
So they have to limit these numbers to 1/3 of the normal size just to reduce the server lag.
Why else would they limit it? This will create problems in the future: spreading out the population on less populated servers : like extreme long waiting times for scenarios to open up.
In my opinion that's the ONLY reason WAR makers left out the 4 other capitols: too few people per server to have room for 6 besieged capitols. With only 500 people maximum to spread out over 4 Tiers with 6 capitols was just asking too much.
Every copy sold of WAR is extra publicity for WotLK seems very logical btw. Just think a bit.
Just to clear up the 'timelines' for Lake Wintergrasp. This is still in beta
The fight starts every 4 hours, the attacking team has 45 mins to capture the keep. This includes building up seige weapons, destroying stuff etc. After the 45 mins, the winning side gets access to a bunch of features. There are also other features around that can still be fought over after the main event.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: many beta testers feel that the 4 hours is too long to wait. There are a ton of posts on the beta forums about it and I'd be willing to bet that it will be reduced to 2 hours. So basically half your time would be spent doing the actual battle, and half would be spent reaping the rewards of winning (access to vendors, boss mobs etc).
Well the first High elf scenario is huge, and once you take both points this blast covers most of the area and you have to run or get killed. I thought it was a lot of fun and I hate BG's Im all about world PvP. The reason why they didn't push the envelope on the scenarios is the game isn't about battle grounds its about Wold PvP. Its about taking taking over the other territor not sitting in an instance battleground killing people for no good reason.
How exactly do you get siege weapons in WoW? I havent kept up on that since I quit playin the game for Warhammer.
i am not sure how you get the seige weapons there are a number of seige work shops in wintergrasp that are capture'able but how the weapons spawn I am not sure, do yuo collect resources? or is it on a timer?, there are ranks required for each vechical, players earn rank buffs from PvPing.
here are some videos fomr the latest build. note LW is not finished and is beta servers are a lagg fest at peek. these 2 vids focus on fighting at the keep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMAKODTrQ80 ( mostly PvP )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex02XenQME0 (first half land siege vehicals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K2EDD6r5N8 (knocking down walls)
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
Viewing this ... and I am speechless.
Wow. They raised the action in MMORPG's once more.
Incredible (for once I"ll control myself and not publish this on the WAR forum).
They would get a heart attack I suppose
)))
WL will blow any PVP competiton for the next 2 years out of the water.
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
I wouldn't say it is whining. I'm undecided on the issue, but this is the point they are making.
1. If it stays at 4 hrs, that means for 3/4's of the time, the 'pvp zone' will be mostly used for pve type activites.
2. If a player can only play for 2 or 3 hours a night, that means there is a good chance they will miss the 'pvp' completely.... or there is a good chance the majority of their time will be 'waiting' for the pvp to start.
3. This part is the 'whiny' part. One of the reasons people think that they have such a long delay is so players have time to complete the pve objectives and utilize the 'rewards of winning'. Of course it doesn't sit well with the pvpers that they are being delayed so pvers can reap the rewards. (again, this is the whiny side of the argument, but it is still valid in a way).
4. Another part of the argument is that there currently isn't enough to do in Wintergrasp for the 3hrs of downtime. They are adding more quests and objectives.. but that will mostly be pve type stuff. I think a lot of pvpers don't want to feel like they have to leave the zone after the seige. Then it starts to feel more like a BG then open world pvp. You do LW, then you go run AV and Normandy a few times, then you come back and do LW again. .... that totally makes it feel like just another BG. A lot of players (myself included) want a true open-world pvp zone that has active pvp all the time.. that is not the case with 4hrs since most of the pvpers will leave after the seige to do bgs
Warhammer will always have better PVP, Mythic has been doing it longer than blizzard and they know how to do it right, wow's pvp is weak.
Sigh, everyone is in beta ...
I would certainly vote for the 4 hour wait. I hope Blizzard doesn't listen to the whiners!!!
The worst for an MMORPG designer team is listen too much to the so called "whiners". It's Blizzard that makes the games, not some teenage kid who thinks he knows it all.
And I certainly hope they will NOT start with things like "instant" PQ and cut out flying paths etc... just to be "rapidly on the action". Instant action and no gameplay after 2 months is the least I would want from WOW.
I wouldn't say it is whining. I'm undecided on the issue, but this is the point they are making.
1. If it stays at 4 hrs, that means for 3/4's of the time, the 'pvp zone' will be mostly used for pve type activites.
2. If a player can only play for 2 or 3 hours a night, that means there is a good chance they will miss the 'pvp' completely.... or there is a good chance the majority of their time will be 'waiting' for the pvp to start.
3. This part is the 'whiny' part. One of the reasons people think that they have such a long delay is so players have time to complete the pve objectives and utilize the 'rewards of winning'. Of course it doesn't sit well with the pvpers that they are being delayed so pvers can reap the rewards. (again, this is the whiny side of the argument, but it is still valid in a way).
4. Another part of the argument is that there currently isn't enough to do in Wintergrasp for the 3hrs of downtime. They are adding more quests and objectives.. but that will mostly be pve type stuff. I think a lot of pvpers don't want to feel like they have to leave the zone after the seige. Then it starts to feel more like a BG then open world pvp. You do LW, then you go run AV and Normandy a few times, then you come back and do LW again. .... that totally makes it feel like just another BG. A lot of players (myself included) want a true open-world pvp zone that has active pvp all the time.. that is not the case with 4hrs since most of the pvpers will leave after the seige to do bgs
There will be pvp going on most of the time, leading up to the 45min event and after, not like every will be instantly teleported to LW 3mins before the fight starts people will be gathering and zerg groups will form a good while before the event and after.
LW could be a huge fail ony time will tell, but I am looking forward to it.
If you start lagging with 8 people on the screen, its your PC that can't handle it. You see, I can still play lag-free with 20 people bunched up together, casting their stuff at eachother. Don't even start blaming the game for your system's shortcomings (And now I suppose you will respond by stating your l33t specs, which will be a lie).
And here's my motto: Every person saying that every WAR copy sold is free publicity for WotLK, is an idiot.
My 2 cents
.
Edited for spelling.
Another 11 yr old WAR fanboi go back to your mindless zerg of a game, move along troll!!