I'd vote real time if it was ever perfectly implemented in an MMO. But sadly I haven't really seen any MMOs that have made real time combat function properly. The closest I think was AoC, at least for melee combat. They still failed in the sense that people could charge up their super attacks and failed in the sense that they didn't use real time combat for ranged types (other then rangers, getting a 25% damage buff if they chose to do so). They were smart enough to realize that from a range it gives far too much of an advantage to melee types.
Originally posted by rikilii Even if it were limited to 3 choices (and it's not), that would make it 2 more choices than most FPS combat: 1. Point/click.
You've never played an FPS competitively (multiplayer). That is the only explanation for this ignorance. Try coordinating 30+ people in a large tactical maneuver against other live opponents. Stuff like you'd find in PlanetSide. The galaxy drops to crack a gen. The MAX crashes. The heavy bombing runs. Learning how to cover a hallway properly. How to enter a room properly. There are RL infantry and vehicle maneuvers for all of these.
My most cherished PlanetSide memories are operating as part of a light cavalry reconaissance screening force. It was absolutely amazing to see that my RL Army experience as a 19D, and conducting various mobile recon operations, actually worked in the game and that said tactics, with good communication, would own people. Stuff like leapfrogging. Traveling overwatch.
You know, a ton of things you've never heard of and have absolutely no clue what they are or what they do.
FPS is point and click? For a simpleton like you, perhaps.
Originally posted by rikilii I disagree. I prefer RT, but WoW-Style combat still requires quite a bit of skill, at least in PVP. You need to know when and where to move, and you have to be able to react very quickly to what your opponent is doing, using just the right attack or response for the situation.
Yeah, none of the above requires any skill. Let's breakdown stereotypical RPG combat systems. You have a few specials. Maybe a few consummables to burn.
When an engagement starts usually the first phase is state application (on yourself or your target). Because of RPG mechanics you don't need to actually aim at anything. Just click or tab. You don't need to worry about movement at all. Cover doesn't exist. Teamwork consists of nothing more than ganging up on a target while other classes keep their DPS/Tanks up and going. Wow, it's soooo difficult to sit there and watch little icons flash and appear under a HAM bar. Lame. ZOMG, the guy just "Crippling Slashed" me! I need to stop the bleed and clear the snare! Whoo, real skill there. And since 99.9% of all MMOs use some lame ass class system it's not like you really have any choice in your capabilities and are pretty much forced to play the game the way the devs want you to. You can't be even remotely creative.
RPG combat, by and large, is a system catering to truly skill-less gamers who can't operate a mouse or a keyboard. Who can't coordinate complex, or even simple infantry/armor maneuvers over Vent/TS. Or those who can't and don't understand the differences between cover and concealment.
Now, yes, I am being overly harsh on RPG combat systems here and no, I'm not some rabid FPSer either (though I do enjoy the good ones). But I just find literally all RPG combat to be boring as hell, stupidly simplistic in every way, and not require even a drop of thought or actual skill.
You have to be kidding me... Really? Honestly?
FPS requires one type of "skill" and only one type of skill... Twitch skill, which isn't really a skill so much as it is reflexes. Sorry, explaining an RPG combat system in a derogitory and overly simplistic manner doesn't make you right. RPG combat is designed to encourage thought and tactics in the way you fight, even if some of the systems out necessarily don't, not just bunny hopping around pressing MB1 and hoping the randomness of your spray hits your target.
I love FPS, and I love RPG combat, but they belong in their seperate games. FPS are great for FPS games, but RPG combat is the best for MMORPGs.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I prefer real-tme personally. I think dice rolls really ruin PvP. Due to dice rolls, a Level 10 will miss a Level 60 player. Compare this to an MMOFPSRPG where the lowbie can dodge and the high level misses. Lowbies have a chance in MMORPGFPS games
So at the very least we need some dodging happening
Also, in RPG combat, pvpers get spiked near instantly because all people have to do is hit TAB key to target the victim then spike. This is why in City of Heroes, etc they usually try to get rid of "Call on Target" because it makes it too easy to spike victims.
People die in MMORPG way faster then in FPS, ironically.
Tryout Savage 2 if you guys get a chance. You have Classes etc just like an MMORPG. However, they have aim/dodge (real time) so you see Class imbalances being overcome due to player skill.
Benefits of player skill integration:
* Get rid of Botters. Cheaters can no longer program a bot to hit TAB key to engage enemy mobs.
* Class imbalances are overcome much better. In FPS, like TF2 and BF2142 / Savage, we have Classes. Yet your player skill can help give you a fighting chance
* Levels and Equipment do not immediately determine victory like they honestly help weigh in too much in mmorpgs
* 'Spiking' is much less of an issue because players cant hit TAB key to all call target on a victim. Think about- if an entire guild all calls the target on 1 guy that victim is just gonna die INSTANTLY.
* Helps alleviate 'zergs'
* Opens up some interesting features like friendly fire. This in turn helps stop zerging, cause casting an AOE will burn up nearby comrades and enemies. So undisciplined forces will get torn up
This is why I look forward to real time combat games like Spellborn, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate Evolution, DFO, Earthrise, etc. I'm just burned out on auto attack MMORPGs no offense to the players that like that style of play. I realize it might make it easier for you to spam general chat channels since yer character is on autoattack. Instead, FPS gamers use Vent/TS
Eventually I believe auto-attack rpgs will be phased out at somepoint in an attempt to appeal to broader audiences
target based if you implement the right stuff IE guildwars is a good base to build on. Most other things are pretty much kinda meh.
Unfortunately Guild wars was a huge offender to 'spiking'. If you checkout the pro GvG films you'd see a lot of spiking going on whereas the group lead calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, then all spike the victim with impunity
Good news the GvG battles were only like 12 vs 12 and the devs put in some counters
But imagine if GW was a real MMO whereas you could have 100 vs 100. The spiking issue would be horrid
What is insidious about 'spiking' only a dedicated pvper will complain about it. This is not an issue in PvE due to the encounters being so static and limited
For PvE, good responsive combat is much less required.
Originally posted by Abrahmm You have to be kidding me... Really? Honestly? FPS requires one type of "skill" and only one type of skill... Twitch skill, which isn't really a skill so much as it is reflexes. Sorry, explaining an RPG combat system in a derogitory and overly simplistic manner doesn't make you right. RPG combat is designed to encourage thought and tactics in the way you fight, even if some of the systems out necessarily don't, not just bunny hopping around pressing MB1 and hoping the randomness of your spray hits your target. I love FPS, and I love RPG combat, but they belong in their seperate games. FPS are great for FPS games, but RPG combat is the best for MMORPGs.
Once you said "bunny hopping" I couldn't take you seriously anymore. What do you play, Quake or UT2k4? This isn't 1998. FPSs, good ones at least, don't let you do that. Try Armed Assault, or Ghost Recon, or America's Army.
Yeah, FPS does require twitch skill. RPG combat requires what...? That you memorize a few 64x64px icons so you can easily identify them? RPG combat is nothing but a glorified rock, paper, scissors match, that almost always boils down to nothing but a bunch of "gotchya" builds that enhanced by uber equipment (hence why time = skill in most MMOs).
The difference between an FPS and RPG? I'll explain it to you.
In an RPG you push a button and your character executes "suppressive fire."
In an FPS you just lay down suppressive fire. What's takes more skill, knowing how to push a single button or knowing how to carefully walk automatic fire, manage recoil, manage ammunition, keep the fire steady and relentless, et cetera. There's more thought to RPG combat systems? I disgaree.
There's just so much more thought and skill that goes into good FPS combat. Not only do you have to manually execute all of those fancy RPG specials using your actual skill, but the parameters of a tactic are completely based on the decisions made by the players and not the mechanics or formulas of the skill. Also, due to the speedy pace of FPSes these decisions need to be made light years quicker than one would have to make in an RPG environment.
I guess it just boils down to preference. I'd rather rely on my own personal skill to do something rather than just push a button and have a game simulate it for me. I must be crazy
The problem I have with real time is that you're always suspect to things like lag and latency over the net.
On a LAN, latency often isnt' that much of a problem, and lag is a function of the server. High speed server, with lots of CPU cycles gives you a much better gaming experience with real time.
Over the 'net, you've got more "moving parts" if you will to cause frustration between squeezing the trigger or swinging the sword and getting the result.
Which is why I prefer target based combat for MMOs.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Abrahmm, In all fairness,(just playing devil's advocate) one could just as easily argue that the only "skill" in target-based combat is being higher leveled or better geared than your opponent. If there were no gear-stat or level-stat factors, your point would be at least arguable.
Different people like to exercise different facilities during gameplay. The only thing "wrong" with twitch combat in an mmorpg is that some targeters wouldn't want to play it. A modern triple-a mmorpg like that would be paradise for twitchers looking for the persistence and immersion (as far as the non-combat and social activities go) depth of an mmorpg to go with their preferred style of twitch combat.
I know there is lots of skill involved in target combat. Those skills are mostly math. Complex and multilayered math. There is skill in twitch combat too which actually goes beyond simply being fast and accurate cursor-pointers. In fact even a person with sluggish reflexes and poor aim can still win in an twitch based game by simply using better strategy such as making better use of cover, positioning, sound, and learning your opponents tactical deficiencies.
Neither type is really "better", it's just personal style. As for which one takes more skill? That's relative to the player. A twitcher with poor math skills will probably suck at target combat. A targeter looking to be guided by explicit numerical data (rather that relying on that non-numerical conceptual if-thens that twitchers rely on) will probably not do very well in twitch combat.
I like both. I can go from one to the other depending on my mood. Unfortunately the triple-a mmorpg market only really supports target based combat. I'm sure some exceptions can be named but they are probably not as polished as the current triple-a target based offerings.
Originally posted by rikilii I disagree. I prefer RT, but WoW-Style combat still requires quite a bit of skill, at least in PVP. You need to know when and where to move, and you have to be able to react very quickly to what your opponent is doing, using just the right attack or response for the situation.
Yeah, none of the above requires any skill. Let's breakdown stereotypical RPG combat systems. You have a few specials. Maybe a few consummables to burn.
When an engagement starts usually the first phase is state application (on yourself or your target). Because of RPG mechanics you don't need to actually aim at anything. Just click or tab. You don't need to worry about movement at all. Cover doesn't exist. Teamwork consists of nothing more than ganging up on a target while other classes keep their DPS/Tanks up and going. Wow, it's soooo difficult to sit there and watch little icons flash and appear under a HAM bar. Lame. ZOMG, the guy just "Crippling Slashed" me! I need to stop the bleed and clear the snare! Whoo, real skill there. And since 99.9% of all MMOs use some lame ass class system it's not like you really have any choice in your capabilities and are pretty much forced to play the game the way the devs want you to. You can't be even remotely creative.
RPG combat, by and large, is a system catering to truly skill-less gamers who can't operate a mouse or a keyboard. Who can't coordinate complex, or even simple infantry/armor maneuvers over Vent/TS. Or those who can't and don't understand the differences between cover and concealment.
Now, yes, I am being overly harsh on RPG combat systems here and no, I'm not some rabid FPSer either (though I do enjoy the good ones). But I just find literally all RPG combat to be boring as hell, stupidly simplistic in every way, and not require even a drop of thought or actual skill.
FPS is so boring and requires no skill. All you need to do is bring the right gun to the right area, and know where the enemies come from, and know when to shoot, and when to hide. It doesnt take anything creative or anything. All yo do is shoot at each other and move to areas in the map
FPS is so boring and requires no skill. All you need to do is bring the right gun to the right area, and know where the enemies come from, and know when to shoot, and when to hide. It doesnt take anything creative or anything. All yo do is shoot at each other and move to areas in the map
FPS will always take more skill than auto-targeted MMOs because you need to aim in an FPS, as well as have timing & strategy.
i suspect you're just saying this because you're bad at FPS.
Originally posted by rikilii Even if it were limited to 3 choices (and it's not), that would make it 2 more choices than most FPS combat: 1. Point/click.
You've never played an FPS competitively (multiplayer). That is the only explanation for this ignorance. Try coordinating 30+ people in a large tactical maneuver against other live opponents. Stuff like you'd find in PlanetSide. The galaxy drops to crack a gen. The MAX crashes. The heavy bombing runs. Learning how to cover a hallway properly. How to enter a room properly. There are RL infantry and vehicle maneuvers for all of these.
My most cherished PlanetSide memories are operating as part of a light cavalry reconaissance screening force. It was absolutely amazing to see that my RL Army experience as a 19D, and conducting various mobile recon operations, actually worked in the game and that said tactics, with good communication, would own people. Stuff like leapfrogging. Traveling overwatch.
You know, a ton of things you've never heard of and have absolutely no clue what they are or what they do.
FPS is point and click? For a simpleton like you, perhaps.
When you have no argument, you result to pointless insults? I must be a simpleton, because you're a genius with that comment.
I have actually played FPSes competitively, starting with Quake, TF, R6, COD, etc.
Everything you mentioned for FPSes applies to RPGs as well. There are 30+ player battles. These involve advanced tactics if you choose to do so. The only difference is, you point your little crosshair at the bad guy, and push the mouse button to kill him. In typical MMO style, you target your opponent and press one of a dozen or so keys to determine your attack. But while I'm doing that and coordinating with my team, I as an individual have to manage my states, stances, buffs, consumables, mana, range, LOS, pets, etc. etc. etc. Surviving in PVP requires fast reactions and the ability to intricately control your character. If you just stand there mashing keys, you will die fast.
Both types of games require skill. They just require different kinds of skill. FPS-style combat requires very good hand-eye coordination and fast reactions. RPG-style combat requires the ability to instantly chose what to do, when, how, etc. and also requires good reaction times and some level of hand-eye coordination (especially for some classes). Both require the ability to think tactically and coordinate with teammates (if you want to win that is).
And for the record, I actually prefer FPS combat (partly because I suck at RPG pvp combat).
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
FPS is so boring and requires no skill. All you need to do is bring the right gun to the right area, and know where the enemies come from, and know when to shoot, and when to hide. It doesnt take anything creative or anything. All yo do is shoot at each other and move to areas in the map
FPS will always take more skill than auto-targeted MMOs because you need to aim in an FPS, as well as have timing & strategy.
i suspect you're just saying this because you're bad at FPS.
It was sarcasm. FPS does take skill, but claiming auto target doesn't is the same thing as me saying fps doesn't
Come on both types of games take some measure of skill. People are letting their bias disable them from having productive discussions here
RPG usually has one thing FPS games lack- and that's 'tactical options'. Compare the UI for a hardcore MMO pvper to the UI from an FPS. Notice, in most FPS games the maximum number of tactical options is limited to what- 9? Only a max of 9 guns could we carry in Unreal
Compare that to an MMORPG where players are hitting what- 60 buttons in World of Warcraft? It does take some measure of skill to play a Class in an MMO.
The real problems with mmorpg combat I tried to outline before from a slightly less unbiased perspective
I play both EVE (or did a month ago) alongside traditional turn based RPG + FPS. So since I play all 3 types, I might be slightly less biased then most posters
why does everyone have to compare real time to rpg combat as fps?
what about god of war dumbasses.
obviously if a game played like wow on console it would be laughed at. the only reason its not real time is lag..
i can't believe theres stupid morons who actually prefer sandwich combat. and call it a skill. theres no tournaments for that kind of stupid combat. means theres no skill. theres no balance its all level and gear base. u retards.
and if im shooting an arrow, i rather be aiming at a targeting then auto hit by clicking. and u stupid rpg combat defenders. rather have a dice roll to see if u blocked or dogde? how fuckin realistic is that? how about we actually get to dodge and block in real time.
like i said a game like zelda would look retarded if it had rpg mmo style combat. And theres a reason devs are scrambling to try to make a real time combat. cuz the mmo style is fuckin stupid skill less and boring.
I like Tabula Rasa's Targeting system. I don't like having to click on an enemy to attack, it simplifies that step. You aren't going to get twitch on an mmo anytime soon. What you will see are cutdown versions of twitch combat. Whether this is limited the amount of people on a map or using a semi-twitch combat. So in the end you won't end up with the problems of massive people in a fast combat twitch scenario of unfun gameplay. With both they will probably require more strategy then that of a CS match.
I don't see how this thread devolved into FPS vs RPG 'skill'. It was supposed to be comparing MMORPGs with auto aim vs those with real time aim.
That being said, it should be pretty obvious that the game with auto-aim/attack will take less skill. Whatever 'strategy' involved in games like WoW gets transferred over to a real time MMO. Denying that is stupid. Add in actually having to aim your swings, spells, bow shots, etc and voila, it's plain simple that real time MMO will take more skill.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
I don't see how this thread devolved into FPS vs RPG 'skill'. It was supposed to be comparing MMORPGs with auto aim vs those with real time aim. That being said, it should be pretty obvious that the game with auto-aim/attack will take less skill. Whatever 'strategy' involved in games like WoW gets transferred over to a real time MMO. Denying that is stupid. Add in actually having to aim your swings, spells, bow shots, etc and voila, it's plain simple that real time MMO will take more skill.
When I created this thread, I never even had FPS's or gaming skill in my head. All of that was totally irrelevant to the point of my question. :P
The point of the thread was more of a "what type of combat is more fitting for an MMO atmosphere?" type thread, or more simply, just asking just what you prefer.
I am actually involved in a software project which is aimed at creating an MMO, and so really we are just juggling the decision of what type of combat to implement, and wanted the public's opinion.
Some people have made some good points, and I appreiate them, but some people just took the thread in the wrong direction I guess.
Sure, there are those MMORPGs with really fun combat systems but if they offer nothing aside from the action like great stories and fun party mates, they would still suck. For example, I'm annoyed by those hack-and-slash types 'cause in the end, all you could really do in those games is hack and slash. If that would be the case, why should I pay big bucks for something I could do offline?
Originally posted by iluvVG I am actually involved in a software project which is aimed at creating an MMO, and so really we are just juggling the decision of what type of combat to implement, and wanted the public's opinion.
Go play Tabula Rasa. Take that exact combat model, the posture modifiers, the cover bonuses, the pace (which is quite fast), and then subtract actual hard locking to the target (it has sticky aim and I'm okay with that).
Basically the most engaging and fun pseudo FPS/TPS MMO combat model out there. It's really a fantastic system and the only thing the game did right besides making all skills player choosable instead of simply intrinsic to the class' leveling process.
there's nothing worse in a group that the highest technichality you can achieve is targetting something, pressing a button and releasing a fireball. When you got a one-dimensional repeated role of killing npcs with barely any AI over and over again, with the sole increase in difficulty merely multiple units together then you do urge something a little bit more, not necessarily fps style though.
I think that it entirely depends on the game. For example an online game of Naruto, either would do depending on the battle system. As turn-based, it could become a strategy game. In real-time, it could be considered as action based. And you know most of the games right now are in real-time. I kind of miss the old school turn based type. Just select a target then attack, ain't that simple? That is why I'm looking forward to the OBT of Atlantica Online.
I don't see how this thread devolved into FPS vs RPG 'skill'. It was supposed to be comparing MMORPGs with auto aim vs those with real time aim. That being said, it should be pretty obvious that the game with auto-aim/attack will take less skill. Whatever 'strategy' involved in games like WoW gets transferred over to a real time MMO. Denying that is stupid. Add in actually having to aim your swings, spells, bow shots, etc and voila, it's plain simple that real time MMO will take more skill.
When I created this thread, I never even had FPS's or gaming skill in my head. All of that was totally irrelevant to the point of my question. :P
The point of the thread was more of a "what type of combat is more fitting for an MMO atmosphere?" type thread, or more simply, just asking just what you prefer.
I am actually involved in a software project which is aimed at creating an MMO, and so really we are just juggling the decision of what type of combat to implement, and wanted the public's opinion.
Some people have made some good points, and I appreiate them, but some people just took the thread in the wrong direction I guess.
I would suggest looking at DDO and trying the trial then, they utilize a hybrid combat system which Turbine used in AC. It may be worth looking into and at the very worst you wasted a little time.
Comments
I'd vote real time if it was ever perfectly implemented in an MMO. But sadly I haven't really seen any MMOs that have made real time combat function properly. The closest I think was AoC, at least for melee combat. They still failed in the sense that people could charge up their super attacks and failed in the sense that they didn't use real time combat for ranged types (other then rangers, getting a 25% damage buff if they chose to do so). They were smart enough to realize that from a range it gives far too much of an advantage to melee types.
You've never played an FPS competitively (multiplayer). That is the only explanation for this ignorance. Try coordinating 30+ people in a large tactical maneuver against other live opponents. Stuff like you'd find in PlanetSide. The galaxy drops to crack a gen. The MAX crashes. The heavy bombing runs. Learning how to cover a hallway properly. How to enter a room properly. There are RL infantry and vehicle maneuvers for all of these.
My most cherished PlanetSide memories are operating as part of a light cavalry reconaissance screening force. It was absolutely amazing to see that my RL Army experience as a 19D, and conducting various mobile recon operations, actually worked in the game and that said tactics, with good communication, would own people. Stuff like leapfrogging. Traveling overwatch.
You know, a ton of things you've never heard of and have absolutely no clue what they are or what they do.
FPS is point and click? For a simpleton like you, perhaps.
Yeah, none of the above requires any skill. Let's breakdown stereotypical RPG combat systems. You have a few specials. Maybe a few consummables to burn.
When an engagement starts usually the first phase is state application (on yourself or your target). Because of RPG mechanics you don't need to actually aim at anything. Just click or tab. You don't need to worry about movement at all. Cover doesn't exist. Teamwork consists of nothing more than ganging up on a target while other classes keep their DPS/Tanks up and going. Wow, it's soooo difficult to sit there and watch little icons flash and appear under a HAM bar. Lame. ZOMG, the guy just "Crippling Slashed" me! I need to stop the bleed and clear the snare! Whoo, real skill there. And since 99.9% of all MMOs use some lame ass class system it's not like you really have any choice in your capabilities and are pretty much forced to play the game the way the devs want you to. You can't be even remotely creative.
RPG combat, by and large, is a system catering to truly skill-less gamers who can't operate a mouse or a keyboard. Who can't coordinate complex, or even simple infantry/armor maneuvers over Vent/TS. Or those who can't and don't understand the differences between cover and concealment.
Now, yes, I am being overly harsh on RPG combat systems here and no, I'm not some rabid FPSer either (though I do enjoy the good ones). But I just find literally all RPG combat to be boring as hell, stupidly simplistic in every way, and not require even a drop of thought or actual skill.
You have to be kidding me... Really? Honestly?
FPS requires one type of "skill" and only one type of skill... Twitch skill, which isn't really a skill so much as it is reflexes. Sorry, explaining an RPG combat system in a derogitory and overly simplistic manner doesn't make you right. RPG combat is designed to encourage thought and tactics in the way you fight, even if some of the systems out necessarily don't, not just bunny hopping around pressing MB1 and hoping the randomness of your spray hits your target.
I love FPS, and I love RPG combat, but they belong in their seperate games. FPS are great for FPS games, but RPG combat is the best for MMORPGs.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I prefer real-tme personally. I think dice rolls really ruin PvP. Due to dice rolls, a Level 10 will miss a Level 60 player. Compare this to an MMOFPSRPG where the lowbie can dodge and the high level misses. Lowbies have a chance in MMORPGFPS games
So at the very least we need some dodging happening
Also, in RPG combat, pvpers get spiked near instantly because all people have to do is hit TAB key to target the victim then spike. This is why in City of Heroes, etc they usually try to get rid of "Call on Target" because it makes it too easy to spike victims.
People die in MMORPG way faster then in FPS, ironically.
Tryout Savage 2 if you guys get a chance. You have Classes etc just like an MMORPG. However, they have aim/dodge (real time) so you see Class imbalances being overcome due to player skill.
Benefits of player skill integration:
* Get rid of Botters. Cheaters can no longer program a bot to hit TAB key to engage enemy mobs.
* Class imbalances are overcome much better. In FPS, like TF2 and BF2142 / Savage, we have Classes. Yet your player skill can help give you a fighting chance
* Levels and Equipment do not immediately determine victory like they honestly help weigh in too much in mmorpgs
* 'Spiking' is much less of an issue because players cant hit TAB key to all call target on a victim. Think about- if an entire guild all calls the target on 1 guy that victim is just gonna die INSTANTLY.
* Helps alleviate 'zergs'
* Opens up some interesting features like friendly fire. This in turn helps stop zerging, cause casting an AOE will burn up nearby comrades and enemies. So undisciplined forces will get torn up
This is why I look forward to real time combat games like Spellborn, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate Evolution, DFO, Earthrise, etc. I'm just burned out on auto attack MMORPGs no offense to the players that like that style of play. I realize it might make it easier for you to spam general chat channels since yer character is on autoattack. Instead, FPS gamers use Vent/TS
Eventually I believe auto-attack rpgs will be phased out at somepoint in an attempt to appeal to broader audiences
Unfortunately Guild wars was a huge offender to 'spiking'. If you checkout the pro GvG films you'd see a lot of spiking going on whereas the group lead calls the target, everyone TABs to the target, then all spike the victim with impunity
Good news the GvG battles were only like 12 vs 12 and the devs put in some counters
But imagine if GW was a real MMO whereas you could have 100 vs 100. The spiking issue would be horrid
What is insidious about 'spiking' only a dedicated pvper will complain about it. This is not an issue in PvE due to the encounters being so static and limited
For PvE, good responsive combat is much less required.
Once you said "bunny hopping" I couldn't take you seriously anymore. What do you play, Quake or UT2k4? This isn't 1998. FPSs, good ones at least, don't let you do that. Try Armed Assault, or Ghost Recon, or America's Army.
Yeah, FPS does require twitch skill. RPG combat requires what...? That you memorize a few 64x64px icons so you can easily identify them? RPG combat is nothing but a glorified rock, paper, scissors match, that almost always boils down to nothing but a bunch of "gotchya" builds that enhanced by uber equipment (hence why time = skill in most MMOs).
The difference between an FPS and RPG? I'll explain it to you.
In an RPG you push a button and your character executes "suppressive fire."
In an FPS you just lay down suppressive fire. What's takes more skill, knowing how to push a single button or knowing how to carefully walk automatic fire, manage recoil, manage ammunition, keep the fire steady and relentless, et cetera. There's more thought to RPG combat systems? I disgaree.
There's just so much more thought and skill that goes into good FPS combat. Not only do you have to manually execute all of those fancy RPG specials using your actual skill, but the parameters of a tactic are completely based on the decisions made by the players and not the mechanics or formulas of the skill. Also, due to the speedy pace of FPSes these decisions need to be made light years quicker than one would have to make in an RPG environment.
I guess it just boils down to preference. I'd rather rely on my own personal skill to do something rather than just push a button and have a game simulate it for me. I must be crazy
The problem I have with real time is that you're always suspect to things like lag and latency over the net.
On a LAN, latency often isnt' that much of a problem, and lag is a function of the server. High speed server, with lots of CPU cycles gives you a much better gaming experience with real time.
Over the 'net, you've got more "moving parts" if you will to cause frustration between squeezing the trigger or swinging the sword and getting the result.
Which is why I prefer target based combat for MMOs.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
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Abrahmm, In all fairness,(just playing devil's advocate) one could just as easily argue that the only "skill" in target-based combat is being higher leveled or better geared than your opponent. If there were no gear-stat or level-stat factors, your point would be at least arguable.
Different people like to exercise different facilities during gameplay. The only thing "wrong" with twitch combat in an mmorpg is that some targeters wouldn't want to play it. A modern triple-a mmorpg like that would be paradise for twitchers looking for the persistence and immersion (as far as the non-combat and social activities go) depth of an mmorpg to go with their preferred style of twitch combat.
I know there is lots of skill involved in target combat. Those skills are mostly math. Complex and multilayered math. There is skill in twitch combat too which actually goes beyond simply being fast and accurate cursor-pointers. In fact even a person with sluggish reflexes and poor aim can still win in an twitch based game by simply using better strategy such as making better use of cover, positioning, sound, and learning your opponents tactical deficiencies.
Neither type is really "better", it's just personal style. As for which one takes more skill? That's relative to the player. A twitcher with poor math skills will probably suck at target combat. A targeter looking to be guided by explicit numerical data (rather that relying on that non-numerical conceptual if-thens that twitchers rely on) will probably not do very well in twitch combat.
I like both. I can go from one to the other depending on my mood. Unfortunately the triple-a mmorpg market only really supports target based combat. I'm sure some exceptions can be named but they are probably not as polished as the current triple-a target based offerings.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
in case it hasn't already been mentioned -- fans of real-time combat in an MMO should check out Darkfall.
Yeah, none of the above requires any skill. Let's breakdown stereotypical RPG combat systems. You have a few specials. Maybe a few consummables to burn.
When an engagement starts usually the first phase is state application (on yourself or your target). Because of RPG mechanics you don't need to actually aim at anything. Just click or tab. You don't need to worry about movement at all. Cover doesn't exist. Teamwork consists of nothing more than ganging up on a target while other classes keep their DPS/Tanks up and going. Wow, it's soooo difficult to sit there and watch little icons flash and appear under a HAM bar. Lame. ZOMG, the guy just "Crippling Slashed" me! I need to stop the bleed and clear the snare! Whoo, real skill there. And since 99.9% of all MMOs use some lame ass class system it's not like you really have any choice in your capabilities and are pretty much forced to play the game the way the devs want you to. You can't be even remotely creative.
RPG combat, by and large, is a system catering to truly skill-less gamers who can't operate a mouse or a keyboard. Who can't coordinate complex, or even simple infantry/armor maneuvers over Vent/TS. Or those who can't and don't understand the differences between cover and concealment.
Now, yes, I am being overly harsh on RPG combat systems here and no, I'm not some rabid FPSer either (though I do enjoy the good ones). But I just find literally all RPG combat to be boring as hell, stupidly simplistic in every way, and not require even a drop of thought or actual skill.
FPS is so boring and requires no skill. All you need to do is bring the right gun to the right area, and know where the enemies come from, and know when to shoot, and when to hide. It doesnt take anything creative or anything. All yo do is shoot at each other and move to areas in the map
FPS will always take more skill than auto-targeted MMOs because you need to aim in an FPS, as well as have timing & strategy.
i suspect you're just saying this because you're bad at FPS.
You've never played an FPS competitively (multiplayer). That is the only explanation for this ignorance. Try coordinating 30+ people in a large tactical maneuver against other live opponents. Stuff like you'd find in PlanetSide. The galaxy drops to crack a gen. The MAX crashes. The heavy bombing runs. Learning how to cover a hallway properly. How to enter a room properly. There are RL infantry and vehicle maneuvers for all of these.
My most cherished PlanetSide memories are operating as part of a light cavalry reconaissance screening force. It was absolutely amazing to see that my RL Army experience as a 19D, and conducting various mobile recon operations, actually worked in the game and that said tactics, with good communication, would own people. Stuff like leapfrogging. Traveling overwatch.
You know, a ton of things you've never heard of and have absolutely no clue what they are or what they do.
FPS is point and click? For a simpleton like you, perhaps.
When you have no argument, you result to pointless insults? I must be a simpleton, because you're a genius with that comment.
I have actually played FPSes competitively, starting with Quake, TF, R6, COD, etc.
Everything you mentioned for FPSes applies to RPGs as well. There are 30+ player battles. These involve advanced tactics if you choose to do so. The only difference is, you point your little crosshair at the bad guy, and push the mouse button to kill him. In typical MMO style, you target your opponent and press one of a dozen or so keys to determine your attack. But while I'm doing that and coordinating with my team, I as an individual have to manage my states, stances, buffs, consumables, mana, range, LOS, pets, etc. etc. etc. Surviving in PVP requires fast reactions and the ability to intricately control your character. If you just stand there mashing keys, you will die fast.
Both types of games require skill. They just require different kinds of skill. FPS-style combat requires very good hand-eye coordination and fast reactions. RPG-style combat requires the ability to instantly chose what to do, when, how, etc. and also requires good reaction times and some level of hand-eye coordination (especially for some classes). Both require the ability to think tactically and coordinate with teammates (if you want to win that is).
And for the record, I actually prefer FPS combat (partly because I suck at RPG pvp combat).
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
FPS will always take more skill than auto-targeted MMOs because you need to aim in an FPS, as well as have timing & strategy.
i suspect you're just saying this because you're bad at FPS.
It was sarcasm. FPS does take skill, but claiming auto target doesn't is the same thing as me saying fps doesn't
Come on both types of games take some measure of skill. People are letting their bias disable them from having productive discussions here
RPG usually has one thing FPS games lack- and that's 'tactical options'. Compare the UI for a hardcore MMO pvper to the UI from an FPS. Notice, in most FPS games the maximum number of tactical options is limited to what- 9? Only a max of 9 guns could we carry in Unreal
Compare that to an MMORPG where players are hitting what- 60 buttons in World of Warcraft? It does take some measure of skill to play a Class in an MMO.
The real problems with mmorpg combat I tried to outline before from a slightly less unbiased perspective
I play both EVE (or did a month ago) alongside traditional turn based RPG + FPS. So since I play all 3 types, I might be slightly less biased then most posters
I LOL'd at this comment and didn't bother reading the rest. You clearly have no grasp of FPS mechanics. Quit pretending you do.
why does everyone have to compare real time to rpg combat as fps?
what about god of war dumbasses.
obviously if a game played like wow on console it would be laughed at. the only reason its not real time is lag..
i can't believe theres stupid morons who actually prefer sandwich combat. and call it a skill. theres no tournaments for that kind of stupid combat. means theres no skill. theres no balance its all level and gear base. u retards.
and if im shooting an arrow, i rather be aiming at a targeting then auto hit by clicking. and u stupid rpg combat defenders. rather have a dice roll to see if u blocked or dogde? how fuckin realistic is that? how about we actually get to dodge and block in real time.
like i said a game like zelda would look retarded if it had rpg mmo style combat. And theres a reason devs are scrambling to try to make a real time combat. cuz the mmo style is fuckin stupid skill less and boring.
I like Tabula Rasa's Targeting system. I don't like having to click on an enemy to attack, it simplifies that step. You aren't going to get twitch on an mmo anytime soon. What you will see are cutdown versions of twitch combat. Whether this is limited the amount of people on a map or using a semi-twitch combat. So in the end you won't end up with the problems of massive people in a fast combat twitch scenario of unfun gameplay. With both they will probably require more strategy then that of a CS match.
I don't see how this thread devolved into FPS vs RPG 'skill'. It was supposed to be comparing MMORPGs with auto aim vs those with real time aim.
That being said, it should be pretty obvious that the game with auto-aim/attack will take less skill. Whatever 'strategy' involved in games like WoW gets transferred over to a real time MMO. Denying that is stupid. Add in actually having to aim your swings, spells, bow shots, etc and voila, it's plain simple that real time MMO will take more skill.
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Self-confessed DF fanboy. Finally a real ****ing MMO.
When I created this thread, I never even had FPS's or gaming skill in my head. All of that was totally irrelevant to the point of my question. :P
The point of the thread was more of a "what type of combat is more fitting for an MMO atmosphere?" type thread, or more simply, just asking just what you prefer.
I am actually involved in a software project which is aimed at creating an MMO, and so really we are just juggling the decision of what type of combat to implement, and wanted the public's opinion.
Some people have made some good points, and I appreiate them, but some people just took the thread in the wrong direction I guess.
Sure, there are those MMORPGs with really fun combat systems but if they offer nothing aside from the action like great stories and fun party mates, they would still suck. For example, I'm annoyed by those hack-and-slash types 'cause in the end, all you could really do in those games is hack and slash. If that would be the case, why should I pay big bucks for something I could do offline?
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Go play Tabula Rasa. Take that exact combat model, the posture modifiers, the cover bonuses, the pace (which is quite fast), and then subtract actual hard locking to the target (it has sticky aim and I'm okay with that).
Basically the most engaging and fun pseudo FPS/TPS MMO combat model out there. It's really a fantastic system and the only thing the game did right besides making all skills player choosable instead of simply intrinsic to the class' leveling process.
there's nothing worse in a group that the highest technichality you can achieve is targetting something, pressing a button and releasing a fireball. When you got a one-dimensional repeated role of killing npcs with barely any AI over and over again, with the sole increase in difficulty merely multiple units together then you do urge something a little bit more, not necessarily fps style though.
I think that it entirely depends on the game. For example an online game of Naruto, either would do depending on the battle system. As turn-based, it could become a strategy game. In real-time, it could be considered as action based. And you know most of the games right now are in real-time. I kind of miss the old school turn based type. Just select a target then attack, ain't that simple? That is why I'm looking forward to the OBT of Atlantica Online.
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Mmm, Naruto Online... But what about that other game, Atlantica Online? What's it about? How's the battle system?
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When I created this thread, I never even had FPS's or gaming skill in my head. All of that was totally irrelevant to the point of my question. :P
The point of the thread was more of a "what type of combat is more fitting for an MMO atmosphere?" type thread, or more simply, just asking just what you prefer.
I am actually involved in a software project which is aimed at creating an MMO, and so really we are just juggling the decision of what type of combat to implement, and wanted the public's opinion.
Some people have made some good points, and I appreiate them, but some people just took the thread in the wrong direction I guess.
I would suggest looking at DDO and trying the trial then, they utilize a hybrid combat system which Turbine used in AC. It may be worth looking into and at the very worst you wasted a little time.