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Candidates differ on female draft
Dracus
Member Posts: 1,449
Sen. Obama supports both men and women to register for Selective Service; with opening of combat positions for women
Sen. McCain does not support women to register for Selective Service and supports current DoD regulations with women in combat roles.
Link:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08287/919582-470.stm?cmpid=elections.xml
While to me it is idealistic for women to be go into any combat role. It is a matter of physical strength and endurance. I will agree some women could do it, but those would be exceptions. For example, most women would find it very difficult to be part of an 81mm mortar team; to carry their gear, personal weapon and ammo, while also carrying part of the mortar system and mortars (even men find this hard to deal with...). Armor might be possible as so long as they are able to keep up with the handling and loading of 120mm shells.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Comments
Yea i quite agree wonen cant be in the regula army because there bodies are inferior and more fragile than mens.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Yea i quite agree wonen cant be in the regula army because there bodies are inferior and more fragile than mens.
Well I suppose you're also forgetting how the feeble woman mind couldn't comprehend basic military tactics... can't forget that...
yes its demeaning and also totally a joke.
zzz. You take the most extreme example of what a well trained man will find troublesome and then state that a normally trained women probably wouldn't handle it... Since when is that an a argument against anything except maybe not accepting untrained homewifes into the army...? As I see it there's hardly no argument against letting women register for Selective Service except men feeling that their manliness got damaged by seeing women being able to do what they do.
I don't see why women shouldn't be able to join. Like not all men are good for all army positions, the same can be said about women.
As for strength and endurance? Are you kidding me? Both of them are about training, with men have a slight advantage towards strength and women towards endurance. And since we go for stereotypes, women withstand pain way much better than men so here you go.
I doubt the army doesn't have a wide range of positions for all types of people.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Special Forces (SF) would be the most extreme case. Mortar crews are fairly common, with 60mm being used more than 81's. There are more cases such as the machine gunner of a squad or platoon. Fortunately I think the M-60 has finally been phased out for a more favorable lighter automatic machine gun. But from past field training experience, we never let the women carry or operate the M-60's; they were too heavy along with the belts of ammo. Now to think about it, they never carried those radios either.
But to give credit, there were two women who did out think the enemy (during an officer training course). The squad leader called out for ammo situations, and these two females screamed they were empty. The squad leader cursed (never yell out being out of ammo), and the Op4 heard it. A team of four moved in, but those two females had lied and took out those four soldiers. Smart thinking on their part.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
You guys do realize that there are plenty of military jobs that both men and woman can do equally well. The US military has a very high tail to teeth ratio. At one time back in the early 80's there were more Signal Corps troops than there were infantrymen in the Army.
There are some jobs that women are excluded from because most women don't have the upper body strength needed for them. A lot of men can't cut it for those positions, either.
Once you're in the service, you're steered toward those positions that you're able to perform in. This is after you've been drafted.
So there's really no issue here. Both men and women should be subject to the draft. Plenty of things for women to do that don't involve direct combat.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
actually it hasd nothnig to do with how women think or how strong they are. The Isreali army tried this ,putting men and women in combat in same units and it turns out men will stay behind and ignore objectives when women are hurt . It wan not uncommon for enemies to shoot the girl first because they knew the entire unit would abandon their mission to protect the one wounded woman and would all try to get her back to help faster.
The neanderthal thinking of men to "protect" their women kicked in in almost every case and 1 wounded soldier would render entire units mission killed as they would not charlie mike.
So until people ( men) learn to get over their baser instincts this will always be a factor and since society doesnt want you to get over them its going to be a while until this part is figured out.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
I used to laugh at a US Army recruiting advertisement aimed at women.
It touted a female soldier saying that her job was communications, and that she stayed safe well behind the front lines keeping her brigade in the loop against the enemy.
The funny part is, she is sitting at ground zero for a tactical nuke, or Spetnatz, strike. Think about it, you take her out of the picture, you can take an entire brigade out of the loop. Easier to deal with her, cut off and mop up her brigade, then vice versa.
Doesn't matter what a women does in the Army, she had better learn to use a rifle, shoot, and scoot. There is no safe seating and popcorn eating in a theatre of war.
Except...
The physical standards are not the same for men and women. Women are allowed to do less push-ups, sit-ups and have a slower run time than men, and receive the same scores/qualifications. For example a female between the ages of 17 to 21 can perform 13 push-ups to met the minimum, while a male needs to do 35. To max out, a female needs to do 42 and a male needs to do 71.
So if a female who did 40 push-ups, near max, and a male who only did 60 push-ups (good but not maxed); then the female should have the Heavy Weapon due to the scores.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Female bodies are more adept at rapidly turning body fat into useable energy, So at same muscle mass levels females are a bit mroe endurant if everything else stays the same. However it's very rare for everything else to stay the same.
What we should be more worried about is how the topic came up in any case.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Dracus made a good point. There's a fight for females to have "equal rights", in departments such as these, but yet it's never equal. Military, and even civilian jobs that are physically exerting like firefighters, demand only about 1/2 as much out of their females as their males.
If you want to run with the big boys, you got to be as strong, fast, and endurable as the big boys. Don't say equal rights, when there's nothing equal about it.
Imo, male or female, they should have to follow the same qualifications. It's ludicrous, and dangerous when you have life threatening situations, and because they decided to make it easier just because one person didn't have a stick and stones in training, is anything but equal, and has the horrid aftermath of possibly causing someones death.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
it really doesnt have anything to do with strength and endurance lol , the female is usually stronger and more durable by nature anyway .. its more of the way people think than anything else ( see above post ) it WAS tried before and the results have to be looked at for what they were, those results should be settled before we go off on things that really dont matter as much as you think like strength and endurance when there are a much more critical issue to combat operations than how much crap can she carry .
besides str and endurance are TRAINABLE so thats just methods to adopt to get the results wanted, its the other things that that are more important to overall mission success.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
On your first point. That's laughably so completely unbased in science I don't even know why you'd bother to mutter it.
On things that are more important than endurance and strength, the only thing that would trump it would be the war psychic. The ability to have mental endurance in horrific situations. Which even on that point, it has been scientifically proven that the female is less able to deal with the horrors of war mentally.
As for training strength and endurance, that's only up to a point. It's called genetics. In the bodybuilding world there are three types of natural bodies. Mesomorph, ectomorph, and endomorph. With each type of body being more prone to a certain type of shape and strength. Whether either thin and lanky, a propencity to put on more fat than muscle, or the ability to almost miraculously do little work and be very muscular(Those are the type of guys that work out once a week and you think they've been doing it everyday for the past five years).
Why I bring this up is that not all men are created equal. Some are stronger and more endurable than others. But even moreso, almost all women were not created with the physical fortitude of a male. That's simple science. It goes back down to our "cavemen" days.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
just pointnig out what happened when it was tried , you know facts of it happening , not fancy on what might happen.
So many people play the pure strength and endurance card that its not funny , you dont have to be that physically strong or run 300 miles to be a soldier, hell even our army trains in sneakers because runnnig in boots is too hard for anyone until you actually HAVE to do it. i carried almost 200 lbs of gear counting weapons and so did teh female MP's in Panama never once did we have to slow down , mainly because we used vehuicles to move , when we walked EVERYONE was tired at the end of the day.
Likle i said this HAS been done , its not a theory its a result of actual events...
The results of it were units were not able to complete missions assigned to them because of a mental factor , the women kept up , carried their loads, fired their weapons , lasted just as long in every case studied. The problem was that men would not abandon a wounded female to a "stranger" from a medical unit and were pretty much combat ineffective until she was treated on how they defined properly.
A unit unable to do it job because it refuses to is much more disturbing to a commander than 1 person of 40 who can only carry 85% of the other 39. And much more of an issue , commanders in US militarty know this already and thats what they are working to overcome not the she can only carry 197 lb when others can carry 225 ...
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
You have to look at it from a realistic perspective I think. 1st, McCain is the candidate strictly against the draft; while Obama is making serving in a service mandatory. 2nd, you have the front line problem of rape. It has happened on numerous occassions. 3rd, you have to remember this is the draft and not service in the military. They will have little combat training. A man is more readily available for this type of service.
First off, like to thank you for your service.
I have a question though, and most likely this will be a no, since your unit was MP's. Did you know of (or for that matter even outside of your unit) of women equipped with heavy weapons or equipment, such as the Radio? (I'm not saying that it has not been done, just like to know from other sources of when this has occurred, even though this is back in '89.)
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
At first, I thought you were joking as I didn't know this, then doing some research to see what you had put down was true...
And I was surprised to find out that it is true.
I did not expect Obama to support an obligated service policy.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
There are a lot of problems with a female draft, period. If that happens, I'm outta here with my family.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Because it hasn't been addressed here. how would you feel about captured women soldiers being raped,tortured and having there heads sawn off and having it posted on the internet? Not a very nice thought now is it?
While captured men being raped, tortured and having their heads shawn off and it posted on the internet is a better thought?
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
So if this happens to men, it's no big deal?
Is this what you're saying? Because it seems to me that the gender of the victim should have nothing to do with your outrage.
War is bad. For everyone.
It's why it's a thing to be avoided, not rushed into because one needs to assert that one does not have a small penis.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
While captured men being raped, tortured and having their heads shawn off and it posted on the internet is a better thought?
No surrender and accepting what your enemy wants for you is the best thought.
He didn't say that. However, yeah, it is different.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
He didn't say that. However, yeah, it is different.
He sure set himself up to allow me to infer it.
No, it's not different. War is bad. It's to be avoided. It's a last resort.
One of the reasons there are "quaint" rules like the Geneva Conventions is to protect our own soldiers.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Except...
The physical standards are not the same for men and women. Women are allowed to do less push-ups, sit-ups and have a slower run time than men, and receive the same scores/qualifications. For example a female between the ages of 17 to 21 can perform 13 push-ups to met the minimum, while a male needs to do 35. To max out, a female needs to do 42 and a male needs to do 71.
So if a female who did 40 push-ups, near max, and a male who only did 60 push-ups (good but not maxed); then the female should have the Heavy Weapon due to the scores.
I see your point there. From what I know from my country, women that decide to join the military division have to pass the exact same tests as men, as far as I know. The exceptions are only at the mechanic or military doctors units and a couple of others I think, that have to do more with the strategic part but due to the structure that we have for the military.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.