IMO Darkfall is not only appealing to griefers. Its immersive world will draw forth many Role Players. I honestly think it could go either way, but Anarchy CAN work. There was a long period of time in the (dare I say it) real world when you couldnt get your gear back and you could attack anyone any time. The thing is you have incentive to not kill people, and there will be large groups ready to squash you if you grief. Guilds will build cities, and guess who isn't welcome. Im sure there will be bounty hunters and mercenaries devoted full time to hunting down griefers.
For those of you who have played EVE online, you are probably aware that you can attack anyone any time. Are you going to? NO!!!! Is high sec much different than the confines of a city wall? Are Corps that much different than guilds? Even when 2 ships run into each other in the middle of now where, sometimes they just are busy doing their own thing like ratting or mining whatever. Just because you can kill somone doesnt mean you will. If everyone runs around spawning and killing each other, the game likely wont be much fun. If the game wont be fun that way, why will people play that way? Oh wait...they won't.
pre-trammel UO was the most exciting heart-pounding action I ever experienced in a mmo.....hands down
did it hurt to be pk'd and looted? yes
was there alot of people doing this? at times
but that sense of fear and excitement is something I have been lookin for in an mmo ever since.
to be perfectly honest I welcomed trammel at first because it was a chance for me and my wife too place a tower ( slightly smaller castle) that we had worked and saved for. we came into UO a few months after release. not only was we behind the 8-ball so too say but it was our first mmo....we were total noobs and it was rough I wont lie but thats fun to me and I think quite a few others. but a few months after trammel we quit to go play eq......UO had lost its excitement .
those that want theme-park/ zero death penalty/item grinders have plenty to choose from......those of us that have been waiting for an exciting skill-based sandbox with severe penaltys for not being ontop of your game at all times will hopefully have a new home in DF.......if thats only 80k-150k people so be it....they may only get 40k-75k ....so what ...as long as they can stay afloat and make a few bucks I wont complain.
Originally posted by damian7 let's compare this loss of time, shall we? you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two). in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost. which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc. there is no comparison. not rationally. not logically.
It is exactly the same, rationally and logically. The amount of time may differ but it is still the same.
Just because someone may consider the amount of downtime in one game acceptable in one game but unacceptable in the other does not make it different.
so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game?
the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same.
so, what are you havering about?
edit: no really, i re-read the quoted. and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense.
NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty. running back to your body? if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is. running back to your body is NOT a death penalty. having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty. item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty.
running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY.
typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game? the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same. so, what are you havering about? edit: no really, i re-read the quoted. and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense. NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty. running back to your body? if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is. running back to your body is NOT a death penalty. having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty. item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty. running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY. typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.
Yes I am talking about the concept. The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.
I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said. Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time. If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result. Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp. The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage. Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.
problem with wow and others like it is that gear defines your character.. I would suspect that 90% of the gear you use In DF will player made and easily replaced....and yes its just time regardless...unless your dumb enuff to buy gold from the chinese.
Really the only way we can make any judgements on this game is to try it........Now if they restrict open beta invites or make us pay through a third party website then it will hurt DF considerably......... While this game seems to have an interesting world, it also seems to have severe rule sets that could make it either very fun or very bad........I played in Pre-Trammel UO and I hated it despite liking some aspects of the game.......
Originally posted by damian7 so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game? the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same. so, what are you havering about? edit: no really, i re-read the quoted. and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense. NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty. running back to your body? if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is. running back to your body is NOT a death penalty. having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty. item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty. running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY. typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.
Yes I am talking about the concept. The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.
I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said. Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time. If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result. Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp. The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage. Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.
Okay I'll keep the first part quick. You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that they are the same, just because they are fruit. Running back to your body, in no way, is close to the same as having to go back to your house or bank and re-equip yourself, or go find a friend to help you get back to your body which has probably been looted clean of anything useful. In the real world, is 2 minutes the same as waiting 3 hours for a plane to arrive? No, it isn't. If you continue to argue that it is, you're only going to make yourself look stupid.
Okay, so the other thing I wanted to mention was that I think most people don't understand how the items are going to work. In these games, the items are largely player crafted. Your generic suits of armor could cost you very little if you are an average character in skill. If you make 5000g a day, these suits could cost you even less, weapons as well. If you are a magic caster, you could potentially get hours of gameplay, non-stop, out of 5000g. It is nothing but a grandmaster item that can be made by any capped crafter of the appropriate profession. There will be a lot of them in no time, so don't worry about having to climb to the highest mountain to find the only GM blacksmith in the world. You are an absolute fool if you carried anything magical of value out of the city, and most people won't. The penalty isn't quite as harsh as some people may be thinking... however, if you are reletively new, it can be a problem. The world is going to be large, so I'm sure you won't bump into a potential murderer no matter where you are. There are going to be innocent players as well.
1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
Exploits sucked, but it was rare for the average player to be affected by them post T2A. (Before that, they seemed to be allot more common but still not as bad as allot people make them out to be)
Lagging the chat buffer was not around long at all btw, just over hyped because exploits that affected PVP directly like that were rare (and a major PITA). Like the clothes exploit when (Pre-T2A) that allowed you to pretty much become invulnerable.
Duping exploits, skill gain exploits, mob killing exploits were the majority of the things you seen. IMO they were way worse because of their effect on the economy of the game. And some of the housing exploits were probably the worst. IMO they were because I one of my houses repeatedly broken into. (My first house was placed on a funky spot near Brit X-roads and allowed you to get into it on a mount if you tried hard enough)
Most MMO's now have way fewer exploits and bugs than games like UO .
I do worry about DF having less resources without a major publisher and because of that taking longer to find/fix problems.
I was never tricked into going gray (Although I accidently did it to myself quite a few times, even called the guards on myself )
2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.
I agree with this, for me this was the biggest problem but it did not keep me from playing pretty much everyday. (And playing everyday did not keep me from whining and moaning about the lag/crashes )
But we have no idea how DF will run, UO had an excuse to run like crap DF doesnt, they have a clear model to follow.
And the fact that they deleted your accounts after 3 months of being de-activated. (Not like it is an easy thing to jump back in that game and start over after you had lost a bunch 7x GM chars because you left for a few months, it's probably one of the things that kept me paying for my accounts long after I was ready to quit, but then after I finally did quit, a year later I found myself wanting to play again) Not sure if this is even true anymore they may keep your accounts indefinitely now.
3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them.
Ganking was a problem for new players, but they did add the "Young" player status for new players, that kept more experienced players from attacking you. There was more to having "Young" status than just not being able to be attacked by other players but that was the basic idea.
Loot/Gear was pretty easy to come by in UO so losing it was not always a big deal. Of course you had to be extra careful with your rare/ magic items and gold, gold weighed you down so you could only carry so much of it anyway.
Ganking was not near as big of a problem as people make it out to be now, it was a pain in the ass to be red you suffered 20% skill loss on death could only go to one bank and it was not in a safe area.
20% skill loss pre-trammel was freaking nasty. You lose 10 points to something like magery, magic resist or parry you had grinded up GM and you were hating life.
I never ganked/pk'd allot, I had a char I messed around with but ended up getting killed and suffering skill loss a few times and got tired of grinding his skills (Tank-Mage) back up.
Red players heads could be worth allot of cash to so people always hunted them.
Mark/Recall made it hard for PK's to even catch their victims, if you were farming cash items some where you were on the lookout already, if they ran into your area you could see their name on the edge of the screen before they got there, if they recalled in it took a sec for them to get their bearings.
4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew
I started just before T2A came out and played for over 5 years and even bought a second account, I played mainly on Baja, but also played on Atlantic and Siege Perilous some too. This happened some I'm sure but you make it sound like after a year UO only had a few hundred people playing. When I played there was always more people coming in and staying than there was leaving. There were certainly periods when less new players were coming in, and times when huge groups left but for the most the numbers were always increasing.
But your right to some extent DF is definitely not going to be for everyone, and DF has a hell of allot more competition.
5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
Class balance is always an issue in any MMO with large scale PVP, probably always will be. And there will always be FOTM I suppose.
6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players?
I solo'd plenty in UO, I had a class (bard/mage) built just for soloing and farming, in fact UO was probably too solo friendly from a PVE stand-point. You just learn when not to fight.
The pre-trammel game play didnt hurt UO it was just that the game engine started showing it's age. The game was 5+ years old when trammel was released, and housing space had allot to do with opening trammel.
Pre-Trammel UO is still my all time fav MMO (I Don't hate post trammel UO, I really like some of the changes, but I enjoyed the game more I think pre-trammel)
DF is not going to be for everyone, the DEV's have to realize the majority has spoken and more people want games like WoW and WAR than UO and DF. But hopefully they did some research and found there was enough players that would like a game like this to make it worth doing.
The pre-trammel game play didnt hurt UO it was just that the game engine started showing it's age. The game was 5+ years old when trammel was released, and housing space had allot to do with opening trammel. Pre-Trammel UO is still my all time fav MMO (I Don't hate post trammel UO, I really like some of the changes, but I enjoyed the game more I think pre-trammel) DF is not going to be for everyone, the DEV's have to realize the majority has spoken and more people want games like WoW and WAR than UO and DF. But hopefully they did some research and found there was enough players that would like a game like this to make it worth doing.
Like most things that a matter of opinion. The gameplay at the time didn't hurt UO as far as its "pvp base" was concerned.
When EQ was first being announced and hadn't even entered public phase .5 yet (ya that was the first one that outsiders got into..) The FAQ had one and only one answer in total caps. Guess what that was?
Will there be forced pvp...
My guild had around 300 people in it. When phase 4 (the open beta) of EQ started we had 2.
If the post trammel game suffered due to the engine the only odd data would be the fact.. That time period was the highest subscriber numbers for UO and it kept going up until after the release of AoS (the all time high for UO subs).
Trammel didn't kill the game for me.. we warred other guilds (I was in a new guild by then). When things started to change to much.. I left.
I'm not really following Darkfall but I'm not sure how this success and/or failure would relate. If DF was marketed as a pvp game.. developed as a pvp game and supported as a pvp game. It would most likely succeed in that market. This is just a general thought process. If you look at potbs it actually was very close to pre-trammel UO. It lured in pvp and pve crowds.. and when the ganking / exploitation of the system started.. you saw the result on the player base. Between the "carebears" quitting and the company trying to change the game to retain them.. (they were already gone) so they ended up losing pvp'rs as well. This was the exact same thing that happened in UO pre-trammel.
As someone who played UO a very long time it seems odd to me that the sub numbers were actually at a peak with the release of AoS.. but that's what EA claims.
It realy doesn't matter I guess at this point one way or another. In the end I'd still rank UO as my favorite MMO ever and Pre-CU SWG as second.
The pre-trammel game play didnt hurt UO it was just that the game engine started showing it's age. The game was 5+ years old when trammel was released, and housing space had allot to do with opening trammel. Pre-Trammel UO is still my all time fav MMO (I Don't hate post trammel UO, I really like some of the changes, but I enjoyed the game more I think pre-trammel) DF is not going to be for everyone, the DEV's have to realize the majority has spoken and more people want games like WoW and WAR than UO and DF. But hopefully they did some research and found there was enough players that would like a game like this to make it worth doing.
I pretty much agree with everything on this. Like I already said once in this thread, I feel that a lot of quality non-PvPer gamers that could care less one way or another about Feluccan ruleset were kind of "duped" by the Pied Piper into going to Trammel just for the housing.
I think what I remember and love most of pre-UO:R was simply the community and general rules pertaining to house security/corpse looting/etc. , it was kind of forced upon you to be good or bad to one another. As for PvP, I think some of the best balancing rules came after UO:R and Trammel, but unfortunately it was too late and most people migrated to Trammel or another game.
The creators of DFO aren't in the dark at all about what kind of game they are creating. They know they are going against the grain, they know what the market tends to favor. That's why I'm hoping that if it does release and feature complete, hopefully this is what will be it's saving grace from following the "gimp until it sucks" timeline of all other games.
Originally posted by DAS1337 Okay I'll keep the first part quick. You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that they are the same, just because they are fruit. Running back to your body, in no way, is close to the same as having to go back to your house or bank and re-equip yourself, or go find a friend to help you get back to your body which has probably been looted clean of anything useful. In the real world, is 2 minutes the same as waiting 3 hours for a plane to arrive? No, it isn't. If you continue to argue that it is, you're only going to make yourself look stupid.
It's is still the same penalty in both games and will remain so unless you can show me that either game has some penalty other than time wastage. It doesn't matter if you need to re-equip yourself or how long the downtime is the penalty is the same, to use your analogy it's comparing a big apple to a small apple.
"6 years after the event people on different MMORPG message boards are still talking about how great Ultima Online was before the introduction of the PvP-free half of Trammel. And for 6 years I had problems understanding this. I only joined UO after Trammel was introduced, and it was blindingly obvious that over 90% of the players were staying in Trammel, with less than 10% staying on Felucca, the PvP side. Today finally somebody on my guild boards explained me what was so great about pre-Trammel UO in words that I could understand: pre-Trammel UO was great, because to protect yourself from player killers, you were forced to band together in guilds. He was talking about him being protected by fear, beat me up and I'll hunt you down with my 100 buddies.
Basically that is the same idea as the Everquest "vision": Introduce harsh and unpleasant aspects in the game, so people band together to overcome them. The joy of playing together makes people love the game. You get far stronger emotions for the game when the consequences of your actions, both good and bad, are stronger. And these stronger emotions are able to overcome the reluctance of people to form friendships with strangers.
This is the reason why EVE Online is steadily growing, albeit from a small base. You can get shot down anytime, and lose a lot of money for your ship and cargo, even with insurance. And you might even be "podded", killed in your escape pod, thereby losing days or weeks of skill development. And the only thing that protects you (besides dumb luck of not running into pirates) is belonging to a powerful corporation which has the ability to punish the pirates. Your game actions, your PvP combat can have big consequences, both positive and negative. There was a lot of buzz recently when some people got hired as virtual assassins, infiltrated a major guild, and managed to kill the guild leader and steal most of the corporations wealth.
If you like things like that, the relative safety of games like World of Warcraft can sure seem boring in comparison. Abalieno calls it a "fake war", and connects the fact that people are exploiting the honor system with the fact that honor rewards are the only consequence of WoW PvP.
[...]
"
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Every new player pre trammel didn't start in Brit city only. When you created a character you had a choice of towns to spawn your new character in. I remember starting in Minoc because of the close by mining to make money and increase str stat. Yes there was an issue with PKs ruling dungeons that stopped some players from experiencing them. It's these Players that didn't get their act together and got griefed a bit to much by pks that became the vocal whining minority that made then dev team do trammel. There is still the siege Shard in UO that has no Trammel where PK's and theifs can still do their thing.
Haven't played UO myself but found someone's Blog with good arguments who i could agree with..
tobolds.blogspot.com/2005/09/ultima-online-pre-trammel.html "6 years after the event people on different MMORPG message boards are still talking about how great Ultima Online was before the introduction of the PvP-free half of Trammel. And for 6 years I had problems understanding this. I only joined UO after Trammel was introduced, and it was blindingly obvious that over 90% of the players were staying in Trammel, with less than 10% staying on Felucca, the PvP side. Today finally somebody on my guild boards explained me what was so great about pre-Trammel UO in words that I could understand: pre-Trammel UO was great, because to protect yourself from player killers, you were forced to band together in guilds. He was talking about him being protected by fear, beat me up and I'll hunt you down with my 100 buddies. Basically that is the same idea as the Everquest "vision": Introduce harsh and unpleasant aspects in the game, so people band together to overcome them. The joy of playing together makes people love the game. You get far stronger emotions for the game when the consequences of your actions, both good and bad, are stronger. And these stronger emotions are able to overcome the reluctance of people to form friendships with strangers. This is the reason why EVE Online is steadily growing, albeit from a small base. You can get shot down anytime, and lose a lot of money for your ship and cargo, even with insurance. And you might even be "podded", killed in your escape pod, thereby losing days or weeks of skill development. And the only thing that protects you (besides dumb luck of not running into pirates) is belonging to a powerful corporation which has the ability to punish the pirates. Your game actions, your PvP combat can have big consequences, both positive and negative. There was a lot of buzz recently when some people got hired as virtual assassins, infiltrated a major guild, and managed to kill the guild leader and steal most of the corporations wealth. If you like things like that, the relative safety of games like World of Warcraft can sure seem boring in comparison. Abalieno calls it a "fake war", and connects the fact that people are exploiting the honor system with the fact that honor rewards are the only consequence of WoW PvP. [...]
"
good find...this is very true.
in games like wow and others where there is a minor death penalty I atleast do not fear death..its no biggie
in games like pre-trammel UO death hurt...it pissed me off...it made me mad...cost me items and gold...it got my heart racing...it made me seek out people who were mad at this same person and we eventually hunted him down and killed him like the dog he was and looted him and turned his bloody red head in for a bounty....this was exciting and fun beyond my abilty to explain......sometimes the red would just log off and we wouldnt find him.....but the hunt was fun and you made friends doing this....it forced people to become a community....you didnt even have the ridiculous arguements in chat that you see in other games...because there could be reprecussions for pissing the wrong person off.
It's amazing how some of the most negative PR Ultima recieved from mainstream media is what drew me to it, considering how big I am on reading reviews.
The development team couldn't even keep their lead designer from getting killed by the shotty game mechanics, how do they expect the players to have fun when they are getting killed left and right!
I can't remember reading one very good review of the game, but I still hopped on board and regret the decision that I didn't invest more time than I already did in the game.
The same naysayers that complained that killing was a big issue tended to be the same who were made that they couldn't turn their house into a horse-drawn carriage, or wanted big purple tamable rabbits. I didn't really give them the time of day, and I wish the devs didn't either.
people fail to relize that being a red had some severe penaltys .....some were willing to endure this but the vast majority were not
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. Exploits sucked, but it was rare for the average player to be affected by them post T2A. (Before that, they seemed to be allot more common but still not as bad as allot people make them out to be) Lagging the chat buffer was not around long at all btw, just over hyped because exploits that affected PVP directly like that were rare (and a major PITA). Like the clothes exploit when (Pre-T2A) that allowed you to pretty much become invulnerable. Duping exploits, skill gain exploits, mob killing exploits were the majority of the things you seen. IMO they were way worse because of their effect on the economy of the game. And some of the housing exploits were probably the worst. IMO they were because I one of my houses repeatedly broken into. (My first house was placed on a funky spot near Brit X-roads and allowed you to get into it on a mount if you tried hard enough) Most MMO's now have way fewer exploits and bugs than games like UO . I do worry about DF having less resources without a major publisher and because of that taking longer to find/fix problems. I was never tricked into going gray (Although I accidently did it to myself quite a few times, even called the guards on myself ) 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. I agree with this, for me this was the biggest problem but it did not keep me from playing pretty much everyday. (And playing everyday did not keep me from whining and moaning about the lag/crashes ) But we have no idea how DF will run, UO had an excuse to run like crap DF doesnt, they have a clear model to follow. And the fact that they deleted your accounts after 3 months of being de-activated. (Not like it is an easy thing to jump back in that game and start over after you had lost a bunch 7x GM chars because you left for a few months, it's probably one of the things that kept me paying for my accounts long after I was ready to quit, but then after I finally did quit, a year later I found myself wanting to play again) Not sure if this is even true anymore they may keep your accounts indefinitely now. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. Ganking was a problem for new players, but they did add the "Young" player status for new players, that kept more experienced players from attacking you. There was more to having "Young" status than just not being able to be attacked by other players but that was the basic idea. Loot/Gear was pretty easy to come by in UO so losing it was not always a big deal. Of course you had to be extra careful with your rare/ magic items and gold, gold weighed you down so you could only carry so much of it anyway. Ganking was not near as big of a problem as people make it out to be now, it was a pain in the ass to be red you suffered 20% skill loss on death could only go to one bank and it was not in a safe area. 20% skill loss pre-trammel was freaking nasty. You lose 10 points to something like magery, magic resist or parry you had grinded up GM and you were hating life. I never ganked/pk'd allot, I had a char I messed around with but ended up getting killed and suffering skill loss a few times and got tired of grinding his skills (Tank-Mage) back up. Red players heads could be worth allot of cash to so people always hunted them. Mark/Recall made it hard for PK's to even catch their victims, if you were farming cash items some where you were on the lookout already, if they ran into your area you could see their name on the edge of the screen before they got there, if they recalled in it took a sec for them to get their bearings. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew I started just before T2A came out and played for over 5 years and even bought a second account, I played mainly on Baja, but also played on Atlantic and Siege Perilous some too. This happened some I'm sure but you make it sound like after a year UO only had a few hundred people playing. When I played there was always more people coming in and staying than there was leaving. There were certainly periods when less new players were coming in, and times when huge groups left but for the most the numbers were always increasing. But your right to some extent DF is definitely not going to be for everyone, and DF has a hell of allot more competition. 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. Class balance is always an issue in any MMO with large scale PVP, probably always will be. And there will always be FOTM I suppose. [quote]6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players?[/quote] I solo'd plenty in UO, I had a class (bard/mage) built just for soloing and farming, in fact UO was probably too solo friendly from a PVE stand-point. You just learn when not to fight.
The pre-trammel game play didnt hurt UO it was just that the game engine started showing it's age. The game was 5+ years old when trammel was released, and housing space had allot to do with opening trammel. Pre-Trammel UO is still my all time fav MMO (I Don't hate post trammel UO, I really like some of the changes, but I enjoyed the game more I think pre-trammel) DF is not going to be for everyone, the DEV's have to realize the majority has spoken and more people want games like WoW and WAR than UO and DF. But hopefully they did some research and found there was enough players that would like a game like this to make it worth doing.
I had till recently a 10 year UO Vet account on Atlantic and i agree with much of responses to the OP listed here .. Honestly Pre -Trammel flourished with activity and was till this day the best MMO experience i have had.... I would think the OP barely played the game by some of his comments( seems mostly heresay of people who never really played).. UO was not the Horror story he makes it out to be..
Pre-Trammel did not fail, it no where near failed ,people banded together and had a great time ..
LOL Brit Graveyard is where the Amateurs PKs went .. and as a new player if you went there and got Pked you were not a very good player and rather slow of wit...
The mechanics of Pre Trammel UO broguth the community together in many ways ,Death was not really a big deal.. Seems to me the most damage ever was to peoples pride... If you cant stomach being Pked then go play a game that doesnt promote those activities... Simple as that there are plenty to choose from....
people fail to relize that being a red had some severe penaltys .....some were willing to endure this but the vast majority were not
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
Everything that you said was true, except that it was a complete failure. I was in one of the most well known small PK groups around since the dread lord days. If it was ever a problem, it was during that time, before stat-loss. After stat-loss, I can say from first-hand experience that the red population was easily quartered. I lost a lot of friends.
The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit. God it sucked getting taken out while red. If you accomplished anything in this game, compare it to finally finding a decent medium sized house spot, saving for the deed, and then after placing the house it gets deleted. It hit home, and hard. Not to mention there were equally as large blue gank groups that hunted us on a nightly basis, it wasn't as if we could stick around and gank the piss out of everything that moved... we were the ones running.
The only revision of history is that the reds were a huge problem. The main difference between us and you were that our playstyle imposed on you, and you wanted the single-player MMO experience that all other games have evolved into since then.
people fail to relize that being a red had some severe penaltys .....some were willing to endure this but the vast majority were not
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
sorry but its you who is trying to rewrite history...yes they made alts too buy stuff...why wouldnt they...but there was way more 10 man pk hunter groups then 10 man gank groups.
I will have too say you have absolutely no clue what your talking about or you were just to anti-social to band together and keep yourself from being ganked. sorry to sound harsh...but you dont know what your talkin about.
people fail to relize that being a red had some severe penaltys .....some were willing to endure this but the vast majority were not
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
Everything that you said was true, except that it was a complete failure. I was in one of the most well known small PK groups around since the dread lord days. If it was ever a problem, it was during that time, before stat-loss. After stat-loss, I can say from first-hand experience that the red population was easily quartered. I lost a lot of friends.
The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit. God it sucked getting taken out while red. If you accomplished anything in this game, compare it to finally finding a decent medium sized house spot, saving for the deed, and then after placing the house it gets deleted. It hit home, and hard. Not to mention there were equally as large blue gank groups that hunted us on a nightly basis, it wasn't as if we could stick around and gank the piss out of everything that moved... we were the ones running.
The only revision of history is that the reds were a huge problem. The main difference between us and you were that our playstyle imposed on you, and you wanted the single-player MMO experience that all other games have evolved into since then.
did you play on great lakes...if so you bastard you probably killed me a few times j/k
good times to be had blue or red....thats what i remember:)
Comments
IMO Darkfall is not only appealing to griefers. Its immersive world will draw forth many Role Players. I honestly think it could go either way, but Anarchy CAN work. There was a long period of time in the (dare I say it) real world when you couldnt get your gear back and you could attack anyone any time. The thing is you have incentive to not kill people, and there will be large groups ready to squash you if you grief. Guilds will build cities, and guess who isn't welcome. Im sure there will be bounty hunters and mercenaries devoted full time to hunting down griefers.
For those of you who have played EVE online, you are probably aware that you can attack anyone any time. Are you going to? NO!!!! Is high sec much different than the confines of a city wall? Are Corps that much different than guilds? Even when 2 ships run into each other in the middle of now where, sometimes they just are busy doing their own thing like ratting or mining whatever. Just because you can kill somone doesnt mean you will. If everyone runs around spawning and killing each other, the game likely wont be much fun. If the game wont be fun that way, why will people play that way? Oh wait...they won't.
pre-trammel UO was the most exciting heart-pounding action I ever experienced in a mmo.....hands down
did it hurt to be pk'd and looted? yes
was there alot of people doing this? at times
but that sense of fear and excitement is something I have been lookin for in an mmo ever since.
to be perfectly honest I welcomed trammel at first because it was a chance for me and my wife too place a tower ( slightly smaller castle) that we had worked and saved for. we came into UO a few months after release. not only was we behind the 8-ball so too say but it was our first mmo....we were total noobs and it was rough I wont lie but thats fun to me and I think quite a few others. but a few months after trammel we quit to go play eq......UO had lost its excitement .
those that want theme-park/ zero death penalty/item grinders have plenty to choose from......those of us that have been waiting for an exciting skill-based sandbox with severe penaltys for not being ontop of your game at all times will hopefully have a new home in DF.......if thats only 80k-150k people so be it....they may only get 40k-75k ....so what ...as long as they can stay afloat and make a few bucks I wont complain.
It is exactly the same, rationally and logically. The amount of time may differ but it is still the same.
Just because someone may consider the amount of downtime in one game acceptable in one game but unacceptable in the other does not make it different.
so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game?
the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same.
so, what are you havering about?
edit: no really, i re-read the quoted. and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense.
NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty. running back to your body? if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is. running back to your body is NOT a death penalty. having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty. item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty.
running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY.
typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Yes I am talking about the concept. The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.
I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said. Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time. If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result. Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp. The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage. Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.
problem with wow and others like it is that gear defines your character.. I would suspect that 90% of the gear you use In DF will player made and easily replaced....and yes its just time regardless...unless your dumb enuff to buy gold from the chinese.
Really the only way we can make any judgements on this game is to try it........Now if they restrict open beta invites or make us pay through a third party website then it will hurt DF considerably......... While this game seems to have an interesting world, it also seems to have severe rule sets that could make it either very fun or very bad........I played in Pre-Trammel UO and I hated it despite liking some aspects of the game.......
And this is what MMORPGs shouldn't be like.
Yes I am talking about the concept. The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.
I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said. Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time. If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result. Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp. The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage. Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.
Okay I'll keep the first part quick. You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that they are the same, just because they are fruit. Running back to your body, in no way, is close to the same as having to go back to your house or bank and re-equip yourself, or go find a friend to help you get back to your body which has probably been looted clean of anything useful. In the real world, is 2 minutes the same as waiting 3 hours for a plane to arrive? No, it isn't. If you continue to argue that it is, you're only going to make yourself look stupid.
Okay, so the other thing I wanted to mention was that I think most people don't understand how the items are going to work. In these games, the items are largely player crafted. Your generic suits of armor could cost you very little if you are an average character in skill. If you make 5000g a day, these suits could cost you even less, weapons as well. If you are a magic caster, you could potentially get hours of gameplay, non-stop, out of 5000g. It is nothing but a grandmaster item that can be made by any capped crafter of the appropriate profession. There will be a lot of them in no time, so don't worry about having to climb to the highest mountain to find the only GM blacksmith in the world. You are an absolute fool if you carried anything magical of value out of the city, and most people won't. The penalty isn't quite as harsh as some people may be thinking... however, if you are reletively new, it can be a problem. The world is going to be large, so I'm sure you won't bump into a potential murderer no matter where you are. There are going to be innocent players as well.
WoW is a cakewalk compared to this type of game.
And this is what MMORPGs shouldn't be like.
second life is pretty popular I've heard... and it's just that.. a second life.. full of interesting things to do... like jobs.
1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
Exploits sucked, but it was rare for the average player to be affected by them post T2A. (Before that, they seemed to be allot more common but still not as bad as allot people make them out to be)
Lagging the chat buffer was not around long at all btw, just over hyped because exploits that affected PVP directly like that were rare (and a major PITA). Like the clothes exploit when (Pre-T2A) that allowed you to pretty much become invulnerable.
Duping exploits, skill gain exploits, mob killing exploits were the majority of the things you seen. IMO they were way worse because of their effect on the economy of the game. And some of the housing exploits were probably the worst. IMO they were because I one of my houses repeatedly broken into. (My first house was placed on a funky spot near Brit X-roads and allowed you to get into it on a mount if you tried hard enough)
Most MMO's now have way fewer exploits and bugs than games like UO .
I do worry about DF having less resources without a major publisher and because of that taking longer to find/fix problems.
I was never tricked into going gray (Although I accidently did it to myself quite a few times, even called the guards on myself )
2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.
I agree with this, for me this was the biggest problem but it did not keep me from playing pretty much everyday. (And playing everyday did not keep me from whining and moaning about the lag/crashes )
But we have no idea how DF will run, UO had an excuse to run like crap DF doesnt, they have a clear model to follow.
And the fact that they deleted your accounts after 3 months of being de-activated. (Not like it is an easy thing to jump back in that game and start over after you had lost a bunch 7x GM chars because you left for a few months, it's probably one of the things that kept me paying for my accounts long after I was ready to quit, but then after I finally did quit, a year later I found myself wanting to play again) Not sure if this is even true anymore they may keep your accounts indefinitely now.
3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this
Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them.
Ganking was a problem for new players, but they did add the "Young" player status for new players, that kept more experienced players from attacking you. There was more to having "Young" status than just not being able to be attacked by other players but that was the basic idea.
Loot/Gear was pretty easy to come by in UO so losing it was not always a big deal. Of course you had to be extra careful with your rare/ magic items and gold, gold weighed you down so you could only carry so much of it anyway.
Ganking was not near as big of a problem as people make it out to be now, it was a pain in the ass to be red you suffered 20% skill loss on death could only go to one bank and it was not in a safe area.
20% skill loss pre-trammel was freaking nasty. You lose 10 points to something like magery, magic resist or parry you had grinded up GM and you were hating life.
I never ganked/pk'd allot, I had a char I messed around with but ended up getting killed and suffering skill loss a few times and got tired of grinding his skills (Tank-Mage) back up.
Red players heads could be worth allot of cash to so people always hunted them.
Mark/Recall made it hard for PK's to even catch their victims, if you were farming cash items some where you were on the lookout already, if they ran into your area you could see their name on the edge of the screen before they got there, if they recalled in it took a sec for them to get their bearings.
4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew
I started just before T2A came out and played for over 5 years and even bought a second account, I played mainly on Baja, but also played on Atlantic and Siege Perilous some too. This happened some I'm sure but you make it sound like after a year UO only had a few hundred people playing. When I played there was always more people coming in and staying than there was leaving. There were certainly periods when less new players were coming in, and times when huge groups left but for the most the numbers were always increasing.
But your right to some extent DF is definitely not going to be for everyone, and DF has a hell of allot more competition.
5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
Class balance is always an issue in any MMO with large scale PVP, probably always will be. And there will always be FOTM I suppose.
6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players?
I solo'd plenty in UO, I had a class (bard/mage) built just for soloing and farming, in fact UO was probably too solo friendly from a PVE stand-point. You just learn when not to fight.
The pre-trammel game play didnt hurt UO it was just that the game engine started showing it's age. The game was 5+ years old when trammel was released, and housing space had allot to do with opening trammel.
Pre-Trammel UO is still my all time fav MMO (I Don't hate post trammel UO, I really like some of the changes, but I enjoyed the game more I think pre-trammel)
DF is not going to be for everyone, the DEV's have to realize the majority has spoken and more people want games like WoW and WAR than UO and DF. But hopefully they did some research and found there was enough players that would like a game like this to make it worth doing.
Like most things that a matter of opinion. The gameplay at the time didn't hurt UO as far as its "pvp base" was concerned.
When EQ was first being announced and hadn't even entered public phase .5 yet (ya that was the first one that outsiders got into..) The FAQ had one and only one answer in total caps. Guess what that was?
Will there be forced pvp...
My guild had around 300 people in it. When phase 4 (the open beta) of EQ started we had 2.
If the post trammel game suffered due to the engine the only odd data would be the fact.. That time period was the highest subscriber numbers for UO and it kept going up until after the release of AoS (the all time high for UO subs).
Trammel didn't kill the game for me.. we warred other guilds (I was in a new guild by then). When things started to change to much.. I left.
I'm not really following Darkfall but I'm not sure how this success and/or failure would relate. If DF was marketed as a pvp game.. developed as a pvp game and supported as a pvp game. It would most likely succeed in that market. This is just a general thought process. If you look at potbs it actually was very close to pre-trammel UO. It lured in pvp and pve crowds.. and when the ganking / exploitation of the system started.. you saw the result on the player base. Between the "carebears" quitting and the company trying to change the game to retain them.. (they were already gone) so they ended up losing pvp'rs as well. This was the exact same thing that happened in UO pre-trammel.
As someone who played UO a very long time it seems odd to me that the sub numbers were actually at a peak with the release of AoS.. but that's what EA claims.
It realy doesn't matter I guess at this point one way or another. In the end I'd still rank UO as my favorite MMO ever and Pre-CU SWG as second.
I pretty much agree with everything on this. Like I already said once in this thread, I feel that a lot of quality non-PvPer gamers that could care less one way or another about Feluccan ruleset were kind of "duped" by the Pied Piper into going to Trammel just for the housing.
I think what I remember and love most of pre-UO:R was simply the community and general rules pertaining to house security/corpse looting/etc. , it was kind of forced upon you to be good or bad to one another. As for PvP, I think some of the best balancing rules came after UO:R and Trammel, but unfortunately it was too late and most people migrated to Trammel or another game.
The creators of DFO aren't in the dark at all about what kind of game they are creating. They know they are going against the grain, they know what the market tends to favor. That's why I'm hoping that if it does release and feature complete, hopefully this is what will be it's saving grace from following the "gimp until it sucks" timeline of all other games.
They changed UO because everyone was leaving because it was a total gankfest. The devs have stated as much. End of story
WIll Darkfall have ways to counteract this? We shalll see
It's is still the same penalty in both games and will remain so unless you can show me that either game has some penalty other than time wastage. It doesn't matter if you need to re-equip yourself or how long the downtime is the penalty is the same, to use your analogy it's comparing a big apple to a small apple.
the devs may have said this I dunno....but I was there...it was not a total gankfest that is a flatout untrue statement.
there was ganking to some degree, but people ran around free from getting ganked alot more then they got ganked.
people fail to relize that being a red had some severe penaltys .....some were willing to endure this but the vast majority were not
I would challenge anyone too find me one person who played pre-trammel and post who prefered post.
I am sure theres somebody out there...but I doubt anyone could find um, thats how few there are.
Haven't played UO myself but found someone's Blog with good arguments who i could agree with..
tobolds.blogspot.com/2005/09/ultima-online-pre-trammel.html
"6 years after the event people on different MMORPG message boards are still talking about how great Ultima Online was before the introduction of the PvP-free half of Trammel. And for 6 years I had problems understanding this. I only joined UO after Trammel was introduced, and it was blindingly obvious that over 90% of the players were staying in Trammel, with less than 10% staying on Felucca, the PvP side. Today finally somebody on my guild boards explained me what was so great about pre-Trammel UO in words that I could understand: pre-Trammel UO was great, because to protect yourself from player killers, you were forced to band together in guilds. He was talking about him being protected by fear, beat me up and I'll hunt you down with my 100 buddies.
Basically that is the same idea as the Everquest "vision": Introduce harsh and unpleasant aspects in the game, so people band together to overcome them. The joy of playing together makes people love the game. You get far stronger emotions for the game when the consequences of your actions, both good and bad, are stronger. And these stronger emotions are able to overcome the reluctance of people to form friendships with strangers.
This is the reason why EVE Online is steadily growing, albeit from a small base. You can get shot down anytime, and lose a lot of money for your ship and cargo, even with insurance. And you might even be "podded", killed in your escape pod, thereby losing days or weeks of skill development. And the only thing that protects you (besides dumb luck of not running into pirates) is belonging to a powerful corporation which has the ability to punish the pirates. Your game actions, your PvP combat can have big consequences, both positive and negative. There was a lot of buzz recently when some people got hired as virtual assassins, infiltrated a major guild, and managed to kill the guild leader and steal most of the corporations wealth.
If you like things like that, the relative safety of games like World of Warcraft can sure seem boring in comparison. Abalieno calls it a "fake war", and connects the fact that people are exploiting the honor system with the fact that honor rewards are the only consequence of WoW PvP.
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$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Every new player pre trammel didn't start in Brit city only. When you created a character you had a choice of towns to spawn your new character in. I remember starting in Minoc because of the close by mining to make money and increase str stat. Yes there was an issue with PKs ruling dungeons that stopped some players from experiencing them. It's these Players that didn't get their act together and got griefed a bit to much by pks that became the vocal whining minority that made then dev team do trammel. There is still the siege Shard in UO that has no Trammel where PK's and theifs can still do their thing.
good find...this is very true.
in games like wow and others where there is a minor death penalty I atleast do not fear death..its no biggie
in games like pre-trammel UO death hurt...it pissed me off...it made me mad...cost me items and gold...it got my heart racing...it made me seek out people who were mad at this same person and we eventually hunted him down and killed him like the dog he was and looted him and turned his bloody red head in for a bounty....this was exciting and fun beyond my abilty to explain......sometimes the red would just log off and we wouldnt find him.....but the hunt was fun and you made friends doing this....it forced people to become a community....you didnt even have the ridiculous arguements in chat that you see in other games...because there could be reprecussions for pissing the wrong person off.
It's amazing how some of the most negative PR Ultima recieved from mainstream media is what drew me to it, considering how big I am on reading reviews.
The development team couldn't even keep their lead designer from getting killed by the shotty game mechanics, how do they expect the players to have fun when they are getting killed left and right!
I can't remember reading one very good review of the game, but I still hopped on board and regret the decision that I didn't invest more time than I already did in the game.
The same naysayers that complained that killing was a big issue tended to be the same who were made that they couldn't turn their house into a horse-drawn carriage, or wanted big purple tamable rabbits. I didn't really give them the time of day, and I wish the devs didn't either.
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
I had till recently a 10 year UO Vet account on Atlantic and i agree with much of responses to the OP listed here .. Honestly Pre -Trammel flourished with activity and was till this day the best MMO experience i have had.... I would think the OP barely played the game by some of his comments( seems mostly heresay of people who never really played).. UO was not the Horror story he makes it out to be..
Pre-Trammel did not fail, it no where near failed ,people banded together and had a great time ..
LOL Brit Graveyard is where the Amateurs PKs went .. and as a new player if you went there and got Pked you were not a very good player and rather slow of wit...
The mechanics of Pre Trammel UO broguth the community together in many ways ,Death was not really a big deal.. Seems to me the most damage ever was to peoples pride... If you cant stomach being Pked then go play a game that doesnt promote those activities... Simple as that there are plenty to choose from....
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
Everything that you said was true, except that it was a complete failure. I was in one of the most well known small PK groups around since the dread lord days. If it was ever a problem, it was during that time, before stat-loss. After stat-loss, I can say from first-hand experience that the red population was easily quartered. I lost a lot of friends.
The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit. God it sucked getting taken out while red. If you accomplished anything in this game, compare it to finally finding a decent medium sized house spot, saving for the deed, and then after placing the house it gets deleted. It hit home, and hard. Not to mention there were equally as large blue gank groups that hunted us on a nightly basis, it wasn't as if we could stick around and gank the piss out of everything that moved... we were the ones running.
The only revision of history is that the reds were a huge problem. The main difference between us and you were that our playstyle imposed on you, and you wanted the single-player MMO experience that all other games have evolved into since then.
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
sorry but its you who is trying to rewrite history...yes they made alts too buy stuff...why wouldnt they...but there was way more 10 man pk hunter groups then 10 man gank groups.
I will have too say you have absolutely no clue what your talking about or you were just to anti-social to band together and keep yourself from being ganked. sorry to sound harsh...but you dont know what your talkin about.
The whole going red was a complete failure. People just used alts to buy stuff. And everyone ran around in 10 man gank groups, so it didn't matter that they were red.
Stop trying to rewrite history.
Everything that you said was true, except that it was a complete failure. I was in one of the most well known small PK groups around since the dread lord days. If it was ever a problem, it was during that time, before stat-loss. After stat-loss, I can say from first-hand experience that the red population was easily quartered. I lost a lot of friends.
The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit. God it sucked getting taken out while red. If you accomplished anything in this game, compare it to finally finding a decent medium sized house spot, saving for the deed, and then after placing the house it gets deleted. It hit home, and hard. Not to mention there were equally as large blue gank groups that hunted us on a nightly basis, it wasn't as if we could stick around and gank the piss out of everything that moved... we were the ones running.
The only revision of history is that the reds were a huge problem. The main difference between us and you were that our playstyle imposed on you, and you wanted the single-player MMO experience that all other games have evolved into since then.
did you play on great lakes...if so you bastard you probably killed me a few times
j/k
good times to be had blue or red....thats what i remember:)