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Is fluff the new content?
skeptical
Member Posts: 357
I don't know about anyone else but it seems to me that this game has replaced fluff for content. The whole achievement thing, the line up of every different kind of mount imaginable that is just the same thing as the bc mounts for the most part.
The raid content consists mainly of a revamped zone from over 2 years ago plus a couple more really small encounters. Many guilds are already bored and clearing all the raid content in a couple days. All these titles and achievement stuff is a nice extra, but does it replace actual content? Not in my opinion it doesn't.
I know there are more raid zones planned in the future. That's the way this game works now, instead of giving you a good amount of content they dish it out a crumb at a time so people don't clear everything in a week. I think it just makes the game shallow myself. It doesn't help the the content that is there is so easy even a pug can do most of it.
I hear people cry that this game is too much focused on raiding and hardcore players, but I think it's the opposite. They made most of the game so easy anyone can get anything so to me they just keep selling out to the instant gratification crowd. Instead of making anything a challenge they just keep the forced time sink method going with the one week reset and minimal content.
I'm not one of those, sky is falling, wow is finished people because I know that won't happen any time soon. Mostly because there is no good alternative yet. I just wonder if this game is just going to keep sliding until a monkey can clear all the raid content by himself in 20 mins.
Comments
Why wouldn't they keep on with the model that has made them one of the most successful entertainment products of all time (it isn't even in the videogame comparison category now)?
The mewling children that are the MMORPG.COM crowd cannot stand that other people, millions of other people, are having fun in this game, and that "hard" content is desired only by a microscopic few while the majority just want to be in the world and have fun as they see fun, not as the tiny little hardcore crowd at MMORPG.COM wants it.
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play this game. If you don't like it, leave. Go play Darkfall or something else.
A lot of people play for fun as they see it, and Blizz seems to have found a good formula. The key thing is that the game WORKS. None of WoW's imitators have figured this out yet...the old model of pushing buggy incomplete product onto the market and charging people for it is no longer in effect.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
More than anything else, the slow erosion of anything resembling challenge is what finally made me quit during TBC. I eventually landed in EvE, which, among other things, is very challenging and I've been a happy MMO'er ever since.
But I don't see why many ex-WoW'ers such as myself are so hateful toward WoW. WoW is a great game in its own right and has been very positive for the MMO community as a whole by bringing in so many new people. Lots of people (i'd go so far as to say the majority) of people playing other MMOs these days are former WoW players who wanted something a bit more specific to their tastes but wouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place if they hadn't gotten into WoW.
MMOs that cater to a specific base are doing great, largely thanks to the influx of people into the community because of WoW. MMOs that try to out-WoW WoW at being generalized, casual MMOs flop of course, but that's just how things go.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
Lol
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
That is an outright lie and let me tell you why. There are zones that you cannot explore and place you cannot go until level 77 when you get a flying mount. Period.
So either you are lying or you used a teleport program to illegally explore. You may have seen the starter zones or a couple more but in no way did you explore Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'Dark.
And add to that - who cares? Do you think exploring the map is content? LOL, they way Blizzard designed the expansion pack, you must do the quests and explore to find them in some places....i.e... Icecrown.
yeah, they are full of crap. You could probably 'explore' all the zones, but it would be mostly running as a ghost. There is no way you could just ride around and see the sights like he is implying, especially on a slow mount.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
That is an outright lie and let me tell you why. There are zones that you cannot explore and place you cannot go until level 77 when you get a flying mount. Period.
So either you are lying or you used a teleport program to illegally explore. You may have seen the starter zones or a couple more but in no way did you explore Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'Dark.
And add to that - who cares? Do you think exploring the map is content? LOL, they way Blizzard designed the expansion pack, you must do the quests and explore to find them in some places....i.e... Icecrown.
The point I was trying to make is that exploring the area yeh thats not content but if you can go through the whole map at pre 60 and live then whats the challenge in the first place. Also if you think there is someplace I can't get with a mage freind with Port then your retarded. So in general terms of storyline with a post 70 toon you will fly through that area, which I did a few times leveling up mains. Since we already know the Raid content is beyond easy then what is the point of lore if your going to buzzsaw through it?
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
That is an outright lie and let me tell you why. There are zones that you cannot explore and place you cannot go until level 77 when you get a flying mount. Period.
So either you are lying or you used a teleport program to illegally explore. You may have seen the starter zones or a couple more but in no way did you explore Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'Dark.
And add to that - who cares? Do you think exploring the map is content? LOL, they way Blizzard designed the expansion pack, you must do the quests and explore to find them in some places....i.e... Icecrown.
The point I was trying to make is that exploring the area yeh thats not content but if you can go through the whole map at pre 60 and live then whats the challenge in the first place. Also if you think there is someplace I can't get with a mage freind with Port then your retarded. So in general terms of storyline with a post 70 toon you will fly through that area, which I did a few times leveling up mains. Since we already know the Raid content is beyond easy then what is the point of lore if your going to buzzsaw through it?
You are inserting your play style onto others. I am not going to "buzzsaw" through it and I am not going to have a mage port me around just for kicks either. technically, I thought Mages can only port to cities and warlocks can summon. So you are telling me you had someone follow you around when you were level 49 just to summon you around Northrend just for kicks? You guys must really be bored I guess.
You cannot fly in Northrend until 77 and when you are offered a quest so you cannot fly through the content. Its done deliberately that way and if you CHOOSE to not do it that way and then complain about it, then its your own stupid fault.
So tell me, since you love to talk about how easy the raid content is, let's see the proof. Have you already been through every raid both 10 and 25 man? I know my guild hasn't. In addition, have you done all the achievements, mastered all the professions that you can, done every quest, explored the story in Icecrown, etc..... But I guess that isn't enough of a challenge for you so its not worth doing.
Seriously, get off the damn challenge kick. NOT EVERYONE PLAYS MMO'S FOR IT TO BE A CHALLENGE. The last time I checked, people play to have fun. I find WOW fun you don't....MOVE ON. I want a fun and enjoyable game. If I wanted a challenge, I would do something else than play a MMO. I would study physics or differential equations or go climb Mount Everest. I think any "MMO isn't good because it isn't a challenge" is a stupid argument. Stop assuming everyone plays for the same reasons you do and find a new argument - this one is getting old. Most people who play WOW don't play it because its a challenge, they play it to have fun - something you the hardcore, elitist MMO crowd has long forgotten.
EDIT: Since you didn't want to respond to my question in the other thread, please find me a game (besides Eve) that is more of a challenge than any other MMO by explaining it as something that isn't a time sink. No MMO is any harder than another except by being more of a time sink. "This game has harder raids." "This game has harder crafting". All of it comes back to time and the amount of time you put in. WOW is a casual game designed for people who have little time to play - that is WHY they play it. If i wanted more of a time-sink, I would play a different game. But since other MMO's must be more challenging, please explain to me how they in a way that does not mean you simply spend more time in them than you do WOW.
Whats the point in heavy content if no one ever notices it? I'll get off the challenge kick if you get it out of your mind that WoWs content is somehow superior, when the content is so easy to get through no one really cares or knows about it.
Many people still have accounts on WoW that don't want it to keep going the easy direction it is heading. Many pvpers, Raiders, Bg fanatics so just because you and your little cadre don't wan't any challenge at all many existing accounts want it fixed. So what is your point, your more important than they are, you somehow have figured out by tampering with spacetime that your part of the silent majority of WoW. Give me a break half my guild is gone from this game because it was simply too easy/faceroll and broken.
Crafting is prefab and all you have to do is gather mats and your on auto gain, especially Eng which is a cakewalk btw. Thinking wow has great crafting shows your inexperience with this gaming genre. We cleared most of the Raiding content before I left and the ones who remained have long since overgeared so if you cant 10 man most of that stuff your just simply terrible, I'm sorry but anyone knows that worth their salt.
Then there is this casual game myth your ramming at me, Casual for who? You? It didn't use to be but WOTLK seems to be heading that direction, is that the direction the majoraty of WoW players want, to be the laughing stock of mmorpgs? If you just want a game you and your daughter, son, etc. can play then something like Hello Kitty or maybe ToonTown is better for you, don't dumb down the grown up games for the rest of us.
Lol, the 'vet' argument; love that one.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
While i agree that the success of WoW is mainly because of so many other games failure I think the "if you don't like it leave" argument is pretty lame. Just because you like EZ mode games that basically play themselves and offer no challenge doesn't mean you are any more right.
My point was that the game keeps catering more and more to the ADD crowd of gamers with no patience or skill.
No, that argument actually is very valid. How many forums on this site have people coming into them daily and posting threads about how their game sucks like fans of WOW have to put up with here? And people who only want to talk about how it is only for people who want games to play themselves and are for carebears and want no challenge. Basically WOW is the only game that has to deal with this. In other game's threads, people actually talk about gameplay and problems with the game. So yeah, a lot of times, posters here have the attitude of "If you don't like it, leave and stop playing" and get very tired of it (as my signature indicates).
But to address the argument at hand, there is more content in Northrend than 2 times BC. Icecrown is one of the best zones I have ever seen, the lore is there and is really great.
Yeh the content itself is not that bad, the bad thing about northrend is you can travel the whole map at level 50.
yeah and as soon as u stepped out of town you would be 1 shotted by mobs, so that whole exploring the whole NR map at lvl 50 is BS
Not true, well if your just really bad it is, I cleared the whole map right after I geared up my 49 priest. Figured on getting some FPs. As for being one shotted it would take two shots to kill you at that level from most of the stuff you encounter since the aggro range is EZ mode. The only time I died was the ice giants, but hey a rogue that level sure, easy.
That is an outright lie and let me tell you why. There are zones that you cannot explore and place you cannot go until level 77 when you get a flying mount. Period.
So either you are lying or you used a teleport program to illegally explore. You may have seen the starter zones or a couple more but in no way did you explore Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'Dark.
And add to that - who cares? Do you think exploring the map is content? LOL, they way Blizzard designed the expansion pack, you must do the quests and explore to find them in some places....i.e... Icecrown.
The point I was trying to make is that exploring the area yeh thats not content but if you can go through the whole map at pre 60 and live then whats the challenge in the first place. Also if you think there is someplace I can't get with a mage freind with Port then your retarded. So in general terms of storyline with a post 70 toon you will fly through that area, which I did a few times leveling up mains. Since we already know the Raid content is beyond easy then what is the point of lore if your going to buzzsaw through it?
You are inserting your play style onto others. I am not going to "buzzsaw" through it and I am not going to have a mage port me around just for kicks either. technically, I thought Mages can only port to cities and warlocks can summon. So you are telling me you had someone follow you around when you were level 49 just to summon you around Northrend just for kicks? You guys must really be bored I guess.
You cannot fly in Northrend until 77 and when you are offered a quest so you cannot fly through the content. Its done deliberately that way and if you CHOOSE to not do it that way and then complain about it, then its your own stupid fault.
So tell me, since you love to talk about how easy the raid content is, let's see the proof. Have you already been through every raid both 10 and 25 man? I know my guild hasn't. In addition, have you done all the achievements, mastered all the professions that you can, done every quest, explored the story in Icecrown, etc..... But I guess that isn't enough of a challenge for you so its not worth doing.
Seriously, get off the damn challenge kick. NOT EVERYONE PLAYS MMO'S FOR IT TO BE A CHALLENGE. The last time I checked, people play to have fun. I find WOW fun you don't....MOVE ON. I want a fun and enjoyable game. If I wanted a challenge, I would do something else than play a MMO. I would study physics or differential equations or go climb Mount Everest. I think any "MMO isn't good because it isn't a challenge" is a stupid argument. Stop assuming everyone plays for the same reasons you do and find a new argument - this one is getting old. Most people who play WOW don't play it because its a challenge, they play it to have fun - something you the hardcore, elitist MMO crowd has long forgotten.
EDIT: Since you didn't want to respond to my question in the other thread, please find me a game (besides Eve) that is more of a challenge than any other MMO by explaining it as something that isn't a time sink. No MMO is any harder than another except by being more of a time sink. "This game has harder raids." "This game has harder crafting". All of it comes back to time and the amount of time you put in. WOW is a casual game designed for people who have little time to play - that is WHY they play it. If i wanted more of a time-sink, I would play a different game. But since other MMO's must be more challenging, please explain to me how they in a way that does not mean you simply spend more time in them than you do WOW.
Whats the point in heavy content if no one ever notices it? I'll get off the challenge kick if you get it out of your mind that WoWs content is somehow superior, when the content is so easy to get through no one really cares or knows about it.
Many people still have accounts on WoW that don't want it to keep going the easy direction it is heading. Many pvpers, Raiders, Bg fanatics so just because you and your little cadre don't wan't any challenge at all many existing accounts want it fixed. So what is your point, your more important than they are, you somehow have figured out by tampering with spacetime that your part of the silent majority of WoW. Give me a break half my guild is gone from this game because it was simply too easy/faceroll and broken.
Crafting is prefab and all you have to do is gather mats and your on auto gain, especially Eng which is a cakewalk btw. Thinking wow has great crafting shows your inexperience with this gaming genre. We cleared most of the Raiding content before I left and the ones who remained have long since overgeared so if you cant 10 man most of that stuff your just simply terrible, I'm sorry but anyone knows that worth their salt.
Then there is this casual game myth your ramming at me, Casual for who? You? It didn't use to be but WOTLK seems to be heading that direction, is that the direction the majoraty of WoW players want, to be the laughing stock of mmorpgs? If you just want a game you and your daughter, son, etc. can play then something like Hello Kitty or maybe ToonTown is better for you, don't dumb down the grown up games for the rest of us.
See, there you go again - nobody enjoys the content, nobody notices the content. That is their decision. You are simply saying "this is how I play the game so it must be true for everyone". Wrong. I never said the content was hard to get through, I argued the opposite. The game is easy but its designed that way. Do you see me going to SWG and complaining its a sandbox or going to the Eve forums and complaining the game is too hard? No, but apparently everyone can come here and complain that WOW isn't designed for them and that makes it a bad game.
That is the summation of your argument: WOW was not made for me and I don't like it; therefore its a bad game. There is no one right way to play but it seems that everyone must play the game like you do and if they don't then they are playing it wrong.
If half your guild is gone, that is fine. The game isn't for them. I honestly do not understand your argument. WOW is obviously NOT the game for you and your guild, so WHY play it? Seriously, you do not see me subscribing to Lineage 2 going "I hate this game, its too hard....I guess I will remain paying them money hoping they change the game for me". THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING: WOW should change to accomodate my play style. You finally began to get it in your final paragraph: Yes WOW is a casual game. Period. it will never be a hardcore raiding game that it was when it first launched. The laughing stock of MMOs? You know what I think a laughing stock is - people who play MMO's for 12-14 hours a day just to be the best. I think they need a career, a job, a new hobby. I am a working professional, I have a wife, kids soon, a job that makes me work more than 8 hours a day. At home, I have work to do and repairs to make. I have pets to take care of, cars to wash, grass to mow and a life where I like to go see my friends and family. WOW is now designed for the people like me who play it for what it is and not for those who don't?!?! That is their ideal player, not the hardcore player. Why is this so hard to understand?
Stop being so elitist. I don't care what your guild has done and I do not think it means that 99% of the playerbase has done it either. I have yet to step foot in NAxx. You want to know why? I do not care to raid right now. I am having fun in other ways. You do realize there is a whole game there besides raiding right? Let me give you a history lesson. When WOW began, the goal and the design were 40 man raids. However, trying to get 40 people for anything sucked...and everything was 40 man (I know, I was GM of one of the largest raiding guilds on our server and we wre one of first in Onyxia's lair and MC). There was little content besides 40 man stuff. Blizzard also realized that they cannot kick content out fast enough to make the hardcore raiders happy (you do realize their raid design team had a few members from EQ raid guilds right?). So Blizzard devs made a decision.....remain hardcore or go casual. They went casual because that was the game that was doing well. Casual players I guarantee you make up 80% of their subscriber base. Why do you think they put Naxx back in in WotLK? Not because, as some think, WOW devs are lazy but because they LOVED that instance and so little of the players ever saw it (something like 15% I believe). WOW's base is not hardcore and not all raiders. Period. To believe any different, is simply to not understand WOW and who plays it. Do you seriously believe a majority of their players are hardcore raiders? If that was true, EQ would have had millions of players too.
And I never said crafting is awesome and amazing. Its fun but it is simple. I am glad its not the 24/7 time sink that SWG was. And your comment about me being inexperienced in the genre is laughable. I have been around the genre for over 10 years and played every major MMO that you could possibly list. You think I am some WOW fanboi that started playing recently. Actually my friends and I (who are all stupid for liking WOW in your opinion) were very hardcore raiders in EQ and we moved as a guild to every game and finally settled on WOW. Sure, others have moved on to other games and others walks of life but do not think only people who just got in the genre like WOW.
Just because you define it at casual does not mean it is, and you said yourself, any game would be casual to you at this point, you haven't even seen Naxx, so actually how could you even know. But something else to, I don't think your understanding. I'm not a hardcore raider either we just had the numbers the content was EZ mode, I cant seem to make you understand that it's easy, EASY!
Maybe you recall when WOTLK came out it only took the top guilds 3 days to clear WoW raid Content. They were however dissapointed at WoW Folding for the casual player base. So here in lies the point before WOTLK WoW had casual elements to Draw the Casuals but not until now did it blatantly gear the game for EZ mode. So I ask you this do you think players who spent all that time in Arena battling it out for points should be happy with the new one hit kill EZ mode DK, Paladin pvp which is just pvp for kids since it only requires one button now. And all those raiders who played there for the challenge now on equal footing with Timmy the 12 year old wonder boy.
I don't care how long youv'e played if you spent in all in EQ then your part of the group that should be pushing for better quality in raids. But maybe you were just leeching off your guild in EQ and just wanted a free ride. Well as far as free rides go your in the right place right now, some of us would like to actually earn it though. Shrug.
All I know is...it takes my monkey, Cheeto, at least 5-6 hours to complete a typical raid...so ..I don't see you're meaning.
edit: Cheeto threatened to bite off my fingers and face if I didn't correct my post. Cheeto is NOT a monkey. Cheeto is a chimp...and a good boy.
You have nailed it really. The "fluff" instead of content, and the uber-easiness factor have essentially destroyed the game. There is almost no challenge left in this game, and without this a game cannot be fun.
Now, the naysayers will say that easy mobs and welfare epics are what made this game successful, but many of these folks are the same kind whose idea of "challenge" is an afternoon spent playing "Chutes and Ladders".
For hardcore, or even medium-experience MMO players, WOW no longer delivers. Blizzard dumbed down the challenge way too much, and server populations are beginning to bear this out.
I just hope they learn these lessons and avoid them in the development of their new secret MMO.
You have nailed it really. The "fluff" instead of content, and the uber-easiness factor have essentially destroyed the game. There is almost no challenge left in this game, and without this a game cannot be fun.
Now, the naysayers will say that easy mobs and welfare epics are what made this game successful, but many of these folks are the same kind whose idea of "challenge" is an afternoon spent playing "Chutes and Ladders".
For hardcore, or even medium-experience MMO players, WOW no longer delivers. Blizzard dumbed down the challenge way too much, and server populations are beginning to bear this out.
I just hope they learn these lessons and avoid them in the development of their new secret MMO.
I don't think the content is intentionally to easy per say even though blizzard has said naxx will be much easier that previous raids, because it is intended to be an equalizer of sorts. The root of the problem as I see it is that blizzard made far to many changes to the dynamics of combat at the same time that they made massive changes to classes. All while creating a new expansion. There is just to much to balance when making that many changes and the ease is a result of that I think.
The fights are difficult, the strategies challenging, the content has the potential to be hard. However, the gear, abilities and player stats are just to high right now.
For example, tanks generate way to much threat especially on multiple targets. Then player damage per second if far to high as with player health and healing, but to a lesser degree. Naxx is an entry level dungeon according to pre-release statements from the devs. It is supposed to be on the easier side of things. The dragon raids are harder though. The balance problems are very easily fixed as long as Blizzard makes adjustments to additional raid content as it is released. Fights need to last a little bit longer, hit a bit harder, require more player resources, etc. Time will tell with uldaman and the devs have said it will be much harder.
All that aside, what is the problem with fluff content? Should games be nothing more than raid raid raid! Variety is nice and there is plenty of simple fun factor in achievements. They don't ruin game balance and can be safely ignored by anyone that only cares about min/maxing. Part of the success formula for WoW is how they offer such a variety to the playerbase.
While I agree with the sentiment, chances are Blizzard will use the idiom 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. In the least I'm hoping for a Sci-Fi themepark; cripes, no more orcs and elves por favor.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
You have nailed it really. The "fluff" instead of content, and the uber-easiness factor have essentially destroyed the game. There is almost no challenge left in this game, and without this a game cannot be fun.
Now, the naysayers will say that easy mobs and welfare epics are what made this game successful, but many of these folks are the same kind whose idea of "challenge" is an afternoon spent playing "Chutes and Ladders".
For hardcore, or even medium-experience MMO players, WOW no longer delivers. Blizzard dumbed down the challenge way too much, and server populations are beginning to bear this out.
I just hope they learn these lessons and avoid them in the development of their new secret MMO.
I don't think the content is intentionally to easy per say even though blizzard has said naxx will be much easier that previous raids, because it is intended to be an equalizer of sorts. The root of the problem as I see it is that blizzard made far to many changes to the dynamics of combat at the same time that they made massive changes to classes. All while creating a new expansion. There is just to much to balance when making that many changes and the ease is a result of that I think.
The fights are difficult, the strategies challenging, the content has the potential to be hard. However, the gear, abilities and player stats are just to high right now.
For example, tanks generate way to much threat especially on multiple targets. Then player damage per second if far to high as with player health and healing, but to a lesser degree. Naxx is an entry level dungeon according to pre-release statements from the devs. It is supposed to be on the easier side of things. The dragon raids are harder though. The balance problems are very easily fixed as long as Blizzard makes adjustments to additional raid content as it is released. Fights need to last a little bit longer, hit a bit harder, require more player resources, etc. Time will tell with uldaman and the devs have said it will be much harder.
All that aside, what is the problem with fluff content? Should games be nothing more than raid raid raid! Variety is nice and there is plenty of simple fun factor in achievements. They don't ruin game balance and can be safely ignored by anyone that only cares about min/maxing. Part of the success formula for WoW is how they offer such a variety to the playerbase.
I agree with you. And I would like to add and ask: how are other MMO's harder or more challenging other than being more of a time sink or time committment? I have asked this before and have yet to get a response. People like to argue this but I have failed to understand it I guess.
I think what Blizzard did was to go ahead and make classes a little over-powered now and they will soon level off. An example is the DK. While they are extremely OP at the first few levels, it does level off at higher levels (they are still strong but comparatively not as strong at 80 as they are 60). I think Blizzard went ahead, allowed this to happen in an attempt to not worry about class balance as much (and maybe focus on class balance in other areas). I am not sure it has worked that well.
I expect though that, when Ulduar raid launches, the same people claiming it is too easy now, will complain its too hard. And to be honest, I would love to see what percentage of the playerbase has cleared 10 and 25 naxx, and all of the other level 80 raids at this point. Everyone says that everyone has done it and its tooeasy - I want to see the stats to back it up. I think its simply the elite raider crowd that is yelling the most and the majority of WOW players haven't completed it all. And Blizzard devs are just fine with that!
Well it's the absurd burst creating the EZ factor in the first place which is bleeding over into pvp from pve creating the huge game imbalance with pve gear dominating pve. They just nerfed back healing but the DPS has to come down way down for these raids to be hard again, either that or the Raid bosses in the new Content will have to be nigh invulnerable, but that wouldn't address the class imbalance, so whatever they do it's a mess that needs cleaning up thats for sure.
The feeling I get is that Raid content is being scaled well above pvp viability if the raid gear for Ulduar is a huge jump from the current stock and a class rebalancing is not done then Ret paladins are going to be well, Gods and Dks not far behind.
I keep asking people the same question and have never gotten a response that was anything other than "it takes longer to do something so it must be harder". *shrug*
People love to say how easy one mmo is and pretend their mmo is some mature adults only mmo that requires a mensa membership to understand. The sad part is that I think people actually believe that some mmos are immune to attracting certain types of people.
I can't think of a fantasy mmo out right now that would take more than a few hours to figure out the majority of the gameplay and I woulnd't find nice/mean people in them.