I've been wary of posting on this board recently because I'm not playing Darkfall. But yes - having to organize trade without an ingame marketplace can actually be kind of fun. We certainly did it - mainly on the VN server boards - in the early days of AC1. But still, I'd guess the lack of at least some kind of ingame trading framework is probably more by omission in Darkfall rather than by design.
And since I have been holding my tongue...I am going to let fly for once right now. Specifically at the resource system in this game. Because I've rarely seen one before that appeared (to me at least) to be such utter crap. I mean Darkfall's resource gathering makes WoW look sophisticated by comparison. And next to a really good sandbox game like Pre-CU SWG or (post salvaging/tinkering patch) AC1? Well...laughable.
Resource gathering (a primary motivation to explore for me), PvE, crafting and PVP are all things I enjoy doing in MMORPGs. And all things which Darkfall promised us. But from my perspective at least, they only really delivered on one - PvP*.
*But I will reserve judgment on the crafting system for now, because I don't know much about it yet.
Where as I will not deny DF has the potential to cross the threshold into a sand box. For me it is lacking :
Trading and logisitcs of moving goods. If we take the world as sheerly materialistic then DF is not where near games like EvE where player made factories make items and they can be moved to markets where they are in demand. Having boats in DF is very ironic due to this
Politics. DF politics are driven by a series of flagged on off lists. There is not real diplomacy section. No in game religion or fantasy factions. Role playing Elements are minimal. Certainly the lack of a real economy is a key factor. I highly suspect most fighting is over farming a dungeon. Which I guess is similar to Eve 0.0 space. But full fledged politics..no. More some e peen driven series of pointless conflicts.
Actually reshaping the world physically seems impossible. Building is limited and I cannot blow away a mountain side. No wildlife beyond a few scattered mobs. No Farming. No construction of harbours. This is not sim city or anyway near.
Certainly I don't tihnk the crafting is massively imaginative and is more a sideline done by macro'ing. (Incidently is there item decay in DF ? Can items to lost to *everyone* e..g dropped in the ocean / lava ?)
Overall the games focus is on PVP FFA combat. Which wold be forgiveable if the combat looked intelligent and great with good animation. But it is not. As I said before, if we rationalise AVs actions (even though there often irrational) they have spread themselves too thinly, promised too much and moved away from there core feature of great combat. Which is why the games falls a good way short of being sandbox in quite a few areas. Possibly the wandering bit is true.
But then this game was not ready for release. Neither was it I suspect two years ago. Tasos is a bit of a liar in that respect.
The only game in Sim City is the canned missions and they are linear. Complete X within X amount of time. The part of Sim City that's a sandbox isn't a game at all.
So basically you are saying a game that encourages the player to not achieve the main goal but instead do what they feel like doing is a sandbox and ones that don't aren't?
Anyone wishing to rebuttal or refute that^^ statement, please give proof otherwise! I will debate you in a logical and orderly manner. If you you cannot present a logical arguement, you post will be disregarded as pure ignorance.
-Mr Hand
Note:
Understand, Darkfall was SUPPOSE ot be a sandbox game and CAN (one day) be a sandbox game, but currently and in the near future is no where near being a sandbox game. Everquest had more skills than Darkfall when they both released. Sense heading (anyone?), mediatation, swimming, dodge, block, dual wield, etc..
Anyone wishing to rebuttal or refute that^^ statement, please give proof otherwise! I will debate you in a logical and orderly manner. If you you cannot present a logical arguement, you post will be disregarded as pure ignorance.
-Mr Hand Note: Understand, Darkfall was SUPPOSE ot be a sandbox game and CAN (one day) be a sandbox game, but currently and in the near future is no where near being a sandbox game. Everquest had more skills than Darkfall when they both released. Sense heading (anyone?), mediatation, swimming, dodge, block, dual wield, etc..
LOL sense heading brings back goodtimes,don't forget the kick skill..)
Anyone wishing to rebuttal or refute that^^ statement, please give proof otherwise! I will debate you in a logical and orderly manner. If you you cannot present a logical arguement, you post will be disregarded as pure ignorance.
-
A sandbox is game that lets play anyway you choose no pre determine paths or levels.People have start calling good sandbox like UO and EVE as the defintions of sandbox.The sandboxes that give you more control over the virtual world as definition of sandboxes.All that is need for a game to be called a sandbox is the freedom to play the game how you see fit.By that defintion most mmo are sandboxes they are not good sandboxes but they are sandboxes.Good sandboxes gives player more control virtual world,Bad sandboxes might as well be a linear game.
Darkfall has almost everything UO had it just that it is not impliment as well UO.It is like saying fighting is not fighting because it does have a tournament mode. Does lack of features or poorly implement feature make a game not a fighting game.Darkfall may not be the sandbox virtual world level of a UO or Eve but it still a sandbox.
In any case, language can be subjectable so it's pointless to argue about it.
I think the posters here at MMORPG are just looking for a (currently) impractical game (which ultimately what my thread came down to). They want more freedoms and skill diversity than video games can offer them...
Originally posted by zymurgeist Those are features that may or may not be present in a sandbox. Sandbox just means nonlinear. Darkfall isn't a shooter either. No Guns.........
READ MY THREAD ON SANDBOXES DAMNIT ><
Do you HAVE to fight in Darkfall? Do you HAVE to craft in Darkfall? Do you HAVE to socialize in Darkfall? If you HAVE to do these things in order to climb up the ranks, then it is not sandbox/nonlinear.
I did read your thread on sandboxes. Nice theories and opinions, but I didn't see where your credentials came from to determine what is and is not a sandbox. In fact, it seems to me you only have one criteria, how close is a game to SWG pre-CU.
Stating EVE isn't a sandbox due to its lack of socialization skills shows your ignorance of EVE, social interaction is about the players behind the monitor, not whether avatars on a screen sit in a cantina, and as most EVE players will tell you, EVE has a great deal of social interaction.
There is no single definition of what a sandbox game is that is universally accepted. The best one I've heard is that every game has sandbox elements, but some games have more than others.
Put on a sliding scale, it might look something like this.
So while SWG-Pre-CU had more sandbox type features, doesn't necessarily make it a better one. ( I actually refused to play it because I read about the forced socialization mechanics such as cantina's, medical clinics and the market system)
DF is a new game, with a very limited release so far. It hasn't had time to mature into the game it might be destined to become. The tools are there, perhaps crafting needs to be revisted to make it more important, and player housing needs to be added (I disagree, I think guild halls are all a game should ever permit) but by most peoples definition, DF is definitely a sandbox-type game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
A failed hater troll topic..again someone who visits these forum has to deal with moronic posts..
troll, it isn't the skill tree alone ..
it is the seamless no instanced world .. it is that content is not restricted by levels ..you can jon you clan mates at any task ..there is no lvl 60 area you can join as level 60 char..You aslo have trhe freedom to fish all day if you like..no one holds you back ..
You dislike the options these sandbox give you ,fine ..but it is moronic to claim it isn't sandbox.. because IMO you can't be that idiot it must be a intended trolling and Game attack ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
You can have a sandbox without player built housing. Crafter is a viable profession in DF. Oh and lets not forget player built cities (equivalent of sections of player controlled space in EvE). The only thing DF is missing is player housing and shops. Frankly I'd rather they either not implemented them or make them very limited. Seeing houses and shops all over the place breaks game immersion.
You are also forgetting that Sandbox games aren't built over night. It took EvE's at least 2 months before the meta political game started to function, and at least a month for the economy to rise out of the stone age - same thing with SB. Once these two pieces fall into place (economy and politics), DF will show its true colors so to speak. If it never happens than you can call DF a poorly implemented shooter.
yeah, when you first step into DF, you'll note its not close to as sandbox as you would like it to be, and its basically a "shooter" as you put it. But you'll have to remember it SB and EvE a few months to show its true colors too, and also remember that everyone in beta noticed this and said that launching now would be launching 2 months early, the devs didn't listened and launched a beta game. So wait 2 or so months for the game to be in launch state :P .
But yeah, anyway, the point is its too early to judge, but its definately not as sandbox as we would LIKE, but calling it "not a sandbox" a few weeks into "release" would be jumping the gun and shooting your mom.
Does a game with man sandboxy features automatically provide a fun gaming experience?
and the answer to this question is. No. A game that relies heavily on player created content and gives players the freedom to actually do whatever is _virtually_ possible can still be a crappy game with boring mechanics and a very poor multiplayer aspect.
Sandbox-fans nowadays are automatically referring to "FFA-PvP-siege-housing" when talking about sandbox, and automatically link this to fun gameplay. That is because of UO and pre-CU-SWG. But these games had a LOT more to them but the bare mechanic that made them unique and fun and a worthwile experience. Things like design, community, balancing (!!!) were huge factors in these games.
You can't just cast everything a 'regular' MMO relies so heavily on into the abyss and claim FFAPvPhousing alone is the key-formula for success. Look at Dark and Light, Shadowbane and now Darkfall, and look at EvE or the early SWG. The mechanics actually play a small part in a successful ame, but we - especially here on MMORPG.com - tend to glorify this mechanic beyond reason...
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
You guys are just shaping sandbox to what you want it to mean.
ex: A sandbox game has to have no levels, housing, guild cities, ffa, full loot, and tits.
No! A sandbox game will have to have 100 more crafting skills than combat skills
No! A sandbox game must have a level editor so you can add in your own content.
There is no such thing as a sandbox MMORPG. Plain and simple. The whole concept of a sandbox is that the player can do anything he wants. If he wants to level up to 60, then he can do it. If he wants to get rid of levels completely and only use skills then he can. If he wants FFA, so be it. However if he wants RvR, so be it.
Different people have different ideas for the sand. Therefore, a sandbox MMMORPG is physically impossible.
Does a game with man sandboxy features automatically provide a fun gaming experience?
and the answer to this question is. No. A game that relies heavily on player created content and gives players the freedom to actually do whatever is _virtually_ possible can still be a crappy game with boring mechanics and a very poor multiplayer aspect.
Sandbox-fans nowadays are automatically referring to "FFA-PvP-siege-housing" when talking about sandbox, and automatically link this to fun gameplay. That is because of UO and pre-CU-SWG. But these games had a LOT more to them but the bare mechanic that made them unique and fun and a worthwile experience. Things like design, community, balancing (!!!) were huge factors in these games.
You can't just cast everything a 'regular' MMO relies so heavily on into the abyss and claim FFAPvPhousing alone is the key-formula for success. Look at Dark and Light, Shadowbane and now Darkfall, and look at EvE or the early SWG. The mechanics actually play a small part in a successful ame, but we - especially here on MMORPG.com - tend to glorify this mechanic beyond reason...
M
you are mistaking "fun" with "success", The wii, for example, is FAR more successful than the Xbox and the ps3, even though the Wii has TONS of games that are commonly called "shovelware" getting incredibly low ratings, though they still sell. Why? Because they are ACCESSIBLE. They aren't bought because they are "good" or even "fun" they are bought b/c they appeal to a lot of different people, a lot of them which don't even like video games that much (but that's offtopic). The same thing happened with WoW, they dumbed down features pre-existing in other mmo's and thus it appealed to a very large amount of people. This would make the game "succesful" but by no means good.
And thus, after the wild success of WoW, all other recent mmo's are trying to copy their themepark EQ2ish gameplay style in hopes of gaining a piece of the WoW playerbase' pie. And thus the frustration, with people who don't like themepark games, b/c there are nearly no games for them to go to b/c mmo's these days are obsessed with trying to break into the mainstream mmo market, which, as of now, WoW has a monopoly on.
And, again, to OP, you can't claim that DF isn't a sandbox at this case, give it 1 or 2 months. Obviously now with no polotics, and with crafting being really hard to do (and thus no player economy), the game is barely sandbox at all, and you will be fully justified in saying that "df is a joke of a sandbox game" in 2 months (i found myself saying that the first day i got into beta, b/c i forgot that nearly every other sandbox game doesn't just come out of the box as a sandbox)
Lost in translation. Since most of us are not Greek couldn't Mr. T.F. have meant that Darkfall was a "litterbox" game not a "sandbox" game? Just a thought
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
i doubt player housing/shops will be added in any time soon, b/c unlike other wanted additions to the game, these will be the hardest to code b/c there's literally nothing in game that facilitates any thing like this. A player can't drop an item b/c they will lag, a player can't even have their dead body lying around on the world, and its automatically turned into a tombstone. Player cities are nearly completely uncostomizeable, and the houses in the cities are completely uncustomizeable.
Where would players build houses? There are no building plots in game, other than guild city building plots. How would players furnish their houses? You can't even drop a sword or your dead body, how could you add a "chair" to the gameworld? How would you add in playershops? As of now the only building plots are in cities, and the cities are predetermined, so if they DO add shops to CITIES, there would only be 1 or 2 per city. How would player shops work? As of now npc hirelings are out, no npc gaurds and no npc player controlled vendors.
If you like DF and think it is fun than more power to you. Hey, some people hated dodgeball in PE class but loved playing vollyball. Do we make fun of them and ridicule them because of it? Hmm.. bad example because yes we used to do just that.
I personally did not like DARKFALL because I thought the controls sucked. It is long past time that we had a developer design an interface that is easy to use. Too often they try to make the player be as skilled as the character they are playing. There are somethings that can be addressed with the character without making the player a twitchy little freak. One off the top of my head is looting. Having to sheathe your weapon, open the loot box on the mob, open your inventory and drag things over is a touch much. Give negatives in the mechanics background for people who loot during a fight. Hell give them no armor consideration if they do that. Lots of dead ninjas. For me that was one of many control issues that drained a lot of the fun out of the game. It is too bad because like many I had been looking forward to this game for years.
As I said I didn't like it. But if you like it then hey good for you.
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
Themepark is where you be guided throughout the game and follow a path to end game its all handed on a silver plate.
Sandbox as you discribe is true you have alot of freedom and you can build things.
Darkfall dont guide you at all you have the freedom to do whatever you want but there are some limits right now on what you can and can not.
You can also build towns ships but becouse size of the world is limited and 10k players if they say you can build anywhere you get areas that are overpopulated clusters and you get in a game where fps is very importend alot of lag.
So they desided to make hamlets that are predetermed hundreds of them all over the world i think thats a good discision, fior this kind of game.
And its early they prolly still implement or chance things for better.
This is a sandbox but with some limitations.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
1. I can go anywhere i want in VG at any level,nothing will stop me from going to the most deadly of place from level one.Now i understand that DF has no levels but if VG does the same thing as DF by allowing me to go anywhere from level one,then it's one in the samr thing.
Will i have a chance of dying if i go to all these places..yes, but could i actually survive..yes again.
2. In VG i could go all the way to top level just by crafting or diplomacy,having never picked up any weapon at all.I can actually play the game and not kill a single mob.
3.You answered this one by mentioning VG and as it stands now,VG wins on this. VG world is vast,as you know and it's actually bigger than DF.
4. Yes DF buildings can be knocked down so VG cant win this one.
5.FFA Kill anyone at any time including guild mates and group mates,plus looting all the cash/gold they have on them as well. You can't loot there items but you can still loot the player you have just killed.
The only things that DF has that VG does not is Skill based system,meaning no levels..Distructable buildings,meaning guild buildings.
ALL in all DF is not really that much different than me playing on a VG ffa server. In many ways VG it has more to offer .
You guys are just shaping sandbox to what you want it to mean. ex: A sandbox game has to have no levels, housing, guild cities, ffa, full loot, and tits. No! A sandbox game will have to have 100 more crafting skills than combat skills No! A sandbox game must have a level editor so you can add in your own content.
There is no such thing as a sandbox MMORPG. Plain and simple. The whole concept of a sandbox is that the player can do anything he wants. If he wants to level up to 60, then he can do it. If he wants to get rid of levels completely and only use skills then he can. If he wants FFA, so be it. However if he wants RvR, so be it. Different people have different ideas for the sand. Therefore, a sandbox MMMORPG is physically impossible.
Sry but you really have no idea what you are talking about . The fact that different peoples like different things do not change what sandbox is.
Sandbox its an engine that gives your many different tools that you can use one another without limitations. Lets think for sandbox like LEGO. You have nearly unlimited variations to build whatever you want with even very limited parts.
In the other side its Theme park. Deep in his engine its sandbox. There are many different part that construct the game but instead of you, the developer already have build all constructions for you. Lets think for it like Disney Land.
So thats the main difference between this 2 general genres.
1. In Theme park developer come already has build entire content of the game: Balanced and looking great, but already limited - nothing that you can change into it. After complete entire content the only new thing that you can do there is new expansion with new content.
2. In oposite its sandbox. You just have many parts and tools that you can use to make your gameplay. Balance and the look of the world is mainly player driven. Players change the game and gameplay by himself. Virtualy unlimited content.
So what you prefer LEGO or Disney Land is absolutely personal taste.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
I just don't have enough information on the game to hatefully bash it like you guys. We all know sandbox games need time to develop. And when I mean develop I mean through the community. As the community develops and starts to give the game world Identity the devs will start tossing tools at people. UO did it, SWg did it and Eve did the same thing.
Lets get some more info before you totally write off the game as non-sandbox.
Well all who say its non sandbox have no clue what a sandbox is they prolly have played only themeparks, come here on forums from many what a sandbox is and then even tho they have not played Darkfall say its not a sandbox lol.
Thats how many form and vent there opinions sad but its im affraid the truth:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Comments
I've been wary of posting on this board recently because I'm not playing Darkfall. But yes - having to organize trade without an ingame marketplace can actually be kind of fun. We certainly did it - mainly on the VN server boards - in the early days of AC1. But still, I'd guess the lack of at least some kind of ingame trading framework is probably more by omission in Darkfall rather than by design.
And since I have been holding my tongue...I am going to let fly for once right now. Specifically at the resource system in this game. Because I've rarely seen one before that appeared (to me at least) to be such utter crap. I mean Darkfall's resource gathering makes WoW look sophisticated by comparison. And next to a really good sandbox game like Pre-CU SWG or (post salvaging/tinkering patch) AC1? Well...laughable.
Resource gathering (a primary motivation to explore for me), PvE, crafting and PVP are all things I enjoy doing in MMORPGs. And all things which Darkfall promised us. But from my perspective at least, they only really delivered on one - PvP*.
*But I will reserve judgment on the crafting system for now, because I don't know much about it yet.
Where as I will not deny DF has the potential to cross the threshold into a sand box. For me it is lacking :
Overall the games focus is on PVP FFA combat. Which wold be forgiveable if the combat looked intelligent and great with good animation. But it is not. As I said before, if we rationalise AVs actions (even though there often irrational) they have spread themselves too thinly, promised too much and moved away from there core feature of great combat. Which is why the games falls a good way short of being sandbox in quite a few areas. Possibly the wandering bit is true.
But then this game was not ready for release. Neither was it I suspect two years ago. Tasos is a bit of a liar in that respect.
So basically you are saying a game that encourages the player to not achieve the main goal but instead do what they feel like doing is a sandbox and ones that don't aren't?
Okay, I understand your argument.
Darkfall is NOT a sandbox mmorpg...!
Anyone wishing to rebuttal or refute that^^ statement, please give proof otherwise! I will debate you in a logical and orderly manner. If you you cannot present a logical arguement, you post will be disregarded as pure ignorance.
-Mr Hand
Note:
Understand, Darkfall was SUPPOSE ot be a sandbox game and CAN (one day) be a sandbox game, but currently and in the near future is no where near being a sandbox game. Everquest had more skills than Darkfall when they both released. Sense heading (anyone?), mediatation, swimming, dodge, block, dual wield, etc..
____________________________
Uhh I'm not this 'Eliza' girl you are talking about...
I just think you are overly-critical, that's all.
LOL sense heading brings back goodtimes,don't forget the kick skill..)
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Jah Rasta For I.
The Wicked Shall Fall..
http://www.ethnic2020.com/images/Ebay/black-jesus.jpg
A sandbox is game that lets play anyway you choose no pre determine paths or levels.People have start calling good sandbox like UO and EVE as the defintions of sandbox.The sandboxes that give you more control over the virtual world as definition of sandboxes.All that is need for a game to be called a sandbox is the freedom to play the game how you see fit.By that defintion most mmo are sandboxes they are not good sandboxes but they are sandboxes.Good sandboxes gives player more control virtual world,Bad sandboxes might as well be a linear game.
Darkfall has almost everything UO had it just that it is not impliment as well UO.It is like saying fighting is not fighting because it does have a tournament mode. Does lack of features or poorly implement feature make a game not a fighting game.Darkfall may not be the sandbox virtual world level of a UO or Eve but it still a sandbox.
In any case, language can be subjectable so it's pointless to argue about it.
I think the posters here at MMORPG are just looking for a (currently) impractical game (which ultimately what my thread came down to). They want more freedoms and skill diversity than video games can offer them...
I chuckle when i see posts like this...maybe it's just me.
READ MY THREAD ON SANDBOXES DAMNIT ><
Do you HAVE to fight in Darkfall? Do you HAVE to craft in Darkfall? Do you HAVE to socialize in Darkfall? If you HAVE to do these things in order to climb up the ranks, then it is not sandbox/nonlinear.
I did read your thread on sandboxes. Nice theories and opinions, but I didn't see where your credentials came from to determine what is and is not a sandbox. In fact, it seems to me you only have one criteria, how close is a game to SWG pre-CU.
Stating EVE isn't a sandbox due to its lack of socialization skills shows your ignorance of EVE, social interaction is about the players behind the monitor, not whether avatars on a screen sit in a cantina, and as most EVE players will tell you, EVE has a great deal of social interaction.
There is no single definition of what a sandbox game is that is universally accepted. The best one I've heard is that every game has sandbox elements, but some games have more than others.
Put on a sliding scale, it might look something like this.
<---few sandbox features------------more sandbox features---------->
WOW DAOC DF EVE SWG Pre-CU
So while SWG-Pre-CU had more sandbox type features, doesn't necessarily make it a better one. ( I actually refused to play it because I read about the forced socialization mechanics such as cantina's, medical clinics and the market system)
DF is a new game, with a very limited release so far. It hasn't had time to mature into the game it might be destined to become. The tools are there, perhaps crafting needs to be revisted to make it more important, and player housing needs to be added (I disagree, I think guild halls are all a game should ever permit) but by most peoples definition, DF is definitely a sandbox-type game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A failed hater troll topic..again someone who visits these forum has to deal with moronic posts..
troll, it isn't the skill tree alone ..
it is the seamless no instanced world .. it is that content is not restricted by levels ..you can jon you clan mates at any task ..there is no lvl 60 area you can join as level 60 char..You aslo have trhe freedom to fish all day if you like..no one holds you back ..
You dislike the options these sandbox give you ,fine ..but it is moronic to claim it isn't sandbox.. because IMO you can't be that idiot it must be a intended trolling and Game attack ..
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$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
You can have a sandbox without player built housing. Crafter is a viable profession in DF. Oh and lets not forget player built cities (equivalent of sections of player controlled space in EvE). The only thing DF is missing is player housing and shops. Frankly I'd rather they either not implemented them or make them very limited. Seeing houses and shops all over the place breaks game immersion.
You are also forgetting that Sandbox games aren't built over night. It took EvE's at least 2 months before the meta political game started to function, and at least a month for the economy to rise out of the stone age - same thing with SB. Once these two pieces fall into place (economy and politics), DF will show its true colors so to speak. If it never happens than you can call DF a poorly implemented shooter.
yeah, when you first step into DF, you'll note its not close to as sandbox as you would like it to be, and its basically a "shooter" as you put it. But you'll have to remember it SB and EvE a few months to show its true colors too, and also remember that everyone in beta noticed this and said that launching now would be launching 2 months early, the devs didn't listened and launched a beta game. So wait 2 or so months for the game to be in launch state :P .
But yeah, anyway, the point is its too early to judge, but its definately not as sandbox as we would LIKE, but calling it "not a sandbox" a few weeks into "release" would be jumping the gun and shooting your mom.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Well the important question is:
Does a game with man sandboxy features automatically provide a fun gaming experience?
and the answer to this question is. No. A game that relies heavily on player created content and gives players the freedom to actually do whatever is _virtually_ possible can still be a crappy game with boring mechanics and a very poor multiplayer aspect.
Sandbox-fans nowadays are automatically referring to "FFA-PvP-siege-housing" when talking about sandbox, and automatically link this to fun gameplay. That is because of UO and pre-CU-SWG. But these games had a LOT more to them but the bare mechanic that made them unique and fun and a worthwile experience. Things like design, community, balancing (!!!) were huge factors in these games.
You can't just cast everything a 'regular' MMO relies so heavily on into the abyss and claim FFAPvPhousing alone is the key-formula for success. Look at Dark and Light, Shadowbane and now Darkfall, and look at EvE or the early SWG. The mechanics actually play a small part in a successful ame, but we - especially here on MMORPG.com - tend to glorify this mechanic beyond reason...
M
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
You guys are just shaping sandbox to what you want it to mean.
ex: A sandbox game has to have no levels, housing, guild cities, ffa, full loot, and tits.
No! A sandbox game will have to have 100 more crafting skills than combat skills
No! A sandbox game must have a level editor so you can add in your own content.
There is no such thing as a sandbox MMORPG. Plain and simple. The whole concept of a sandbox is that the player can do anything he wants. If he wants to level up to 60, then he can do it. If he wants to get rid of levels completely and only use skills then he can. If he wants FFA, so be it. However if he wants RvR, so be it.
Different people have different ideas for the sand. Therefore, a sandbox MMMORPG is physically impossible.
you are mistaking "fun" with "success", The wii, for example, is FAR more successful than the Xbox and the ps3, even though the Wii has TONS of games that are commonly called "shovelware" getting incredibly low ratings, though they still sell. Why? Because they are ACCESSIBLE. They aren't bought because they are "good" or even "fun" they are bought b/c they appeal to a lot of different people, a lot of them which don't even like video games that much (but that's offtopic). The same thing happened with WoW, they dumbed down features pre-existing in other mmo's and thus it appealed to a very large amount of people. This would make the game "succesful" but by no means good.
And thus, after the wild success of WoW, all other recent mmo's are trying to copy their themepark EQ2ish gameplay style in hopes of gaining a piece of the WoW playerbase' pie. And thus the frustration, with people who don't like themepark games, b/c there are nearly no games for them to go to b/c mmo's these days are obsessed with trying to break into the mainstream mmo market, which, as of now, WoW has a monopoly on.
And, again, to OP, you can't claim that DF isn't a sandbox at this case, give it 1 or 2 months. Obviously now with no polotics, and with crafting being really hard to do (and thus no player economy), the game is barely sandbox at all, and you will be fully justified in saying that "df is a joke of a sandbox game" in 2 months (i found myself saying that the first day i got into beta, b/c i forgot that nearly every other sandbox game doesn't just come out of the box as a sandbox)
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Lost in translation. Since most of us are not Greek couldn't Mr. T.F. have meant that Darkfall was a "litterbox" game not a "sandbox" game? Just a thought
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
i doubt player housing/shops will be added in any time soon, b/c unlike other wanted additions to the game, these will be the hardest to code b/c there's literally nothing in game that facilitates any thing like this. A player can't drop an item b/c they will lag, a player can't even have their dead body lying around on the world, and its automatically turned into a tombstone. Player cities are nearly completely uncostomizeable, and the houses in the cities are completely uncustomizeable.
Where would players build houses? There are no building plots in game, other than guild city building plots. How would players furnish their houses? You can't even drop a sword or your dead body, how could you add a "chair" to the gameworld? How would you add in playershops? As of now the only building plots are in cities, and the cities are predetermined, so if they DO add shops to CITIES, there would only be 1 or 2 per city. How would player shops work? As of now npc hirelings are out, no npc gaurds and no npc player controlled vendors.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
You know what? Who cares?
In the end is it fun or not?
If you like DF and think it is fun than more power to you. Hey, some people hated dodgeball in PE class but loved playing vollyball. Do we make fun of them and ridicule them because of it? Hmm.. bad example because yes we used to do just that.
I personally did not like DARKFALL because I thought the controls sucked. It is long past time that we had a developer design an interface that is easy to use. Too often they try to make the player be as skilled as the character they are playing. There are somethings that can be addressed with the character without making the player a twitchy little freak. One off the top of my head is looting. Having to sheathe your weapon, open the loot box on the mob, open your inventory and drag things over is a touch much. Give negatives in the mechanics background for people who loot during a fight. Hell give them no armor consideration if they do that. Lots of dead ninjas. For me that was one of many control issues that drained a lot of the fun out of the game. It is too bad because like many I had been looking forward to this game for years.
As I said I didn't like it. But if you like it then hey good for you.
Themepark is where you be guided throughout the game and follow a path to end game its all handed on a silver plate.
Sandbox as you discribe is true you have alot of freedom and you can build things.
Darkfall dont guide you at all you have the freedom to do whatever you want but there are some limits right now on what you can and can not.
You can also build towns ships but becouse size of the world is limited and 10k players if they say you can build anywhere you get areas that are overpopulated clusters and you get in a game where fps is very importend alot of lag.
So they desided to make hamlets that are predetermed hundreds of them all over the world i think thats a good discision, fior this kind of game.
And its early they prolly still implement or chance things for better.
This is a sandbox but with some limitations.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
1. I can go anywhere i want in VG at any level,nothing will stop me from going to the most deadly of place from level one.Now i understand that DF has no levels but if VG does the same thing as DF by allowing me to go anywhere from level one,then it's one in the samr thing.
Will i have a chance of dying if i go to all these places..yes, but could i actually survive..yes again.
2. In VG i could go all the way to top level just by crafting or diplomacy,having never picked up any weapon at all.I can actually play the game and not kill a single mob.
3.You answered this one by mentioning VG and as it stands now,VG wins on this. VG world is vast,as you know and it's actually bigger than DF.
4. Yes DF buildings can be knocked down so VG cant win this one.
5.FFA Kill anyone at any time including guild mates and group mates,plus looting all the cash/gold they have on them as well. You can't loot there items but you can still loot the player you have just killed.
The only things that DF has that VG does not is Skill based system,meaning no levels..Distructable buildings,meaning guild buildings.
ALL in all DF is not really that much different than me playing on a VG ffa server. In many ways VG it has more to offer .
Sandbox it is not.
Jah Rasta For I.
The Wicked Shall Fall..
http://www.ethnic2020.com/images/Ebay/black-jesus.jpg
Sry but you really have no idea what you are talking about
. The fact that different peoples like different things do not change what sandbox is.
Sandbox its an engine that gives your many different tools that you can use one another without limitations. Lets think for sandbox like LEGO. You have nearly unlimited variations to build whatever you want with even very limited parts.
In the other side its Theme park. Deep in his engine its sandbox. There are many different part that construct the game but instead of you, the developer already have build all constructions for you. Lets think for it like Disney Land.
So thats the main difference between this 2 general genres.
1. In Theme park developer come already has build entire content of the game: Balanced and looking great, but already limited - nothing that you can change into it. After complete entire content the only new thing that you can do there is new expansion with new content.
2. In oposite its sandbox. You just have many parts and tools that you can use to make your gameplay. Balance and the look of the world is mainly player driven. Players change the game and gameplay by himself. Virtualy unlimited content.
So what you prefer LEGO or Disney Land is absolutely personal taste.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
I just don't have enough information on the game to hatefully bash it like you guys.
We all know sandbox games need time to develop.
And when I mean develop I mean through the community.
As the community develops and starts to give the game world Identity the devs will start tossing tools at people.
UO did it, SWg did it and Eve did the same thing.
Lets get some more info before you totally write off the game as non-sandbox.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Well all who say its non sandbox have no clue what a sandbox is they prolly have played only themeparks, come here on forums from many what a sandbox is and then even tho they have not played Darkfall say its not a sandbox lol.
Thats how many form and vent there opinions sad but its im affraid the truth:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Your mom's a sandboxy themepark... What do you think about them apples?
Sorry I think I just channeled my wife.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.