Yeah it makes no sense - it makes the games sad to watch if you aren't playing and is the main obstacle to there ever being a movie based on a current MMO... and it's not even fun. A whole class based on tricking the enemy into attacking it? Healers that can and do restore full health to one character many times over in less than 30 seconds? What fiction are these ideas based on? Even the original edition D&D healing is mostly about reducing downtime and NOT multiplying the fighter's HPs by infinity. And besides, the whole "taunting" thing goes out the window in pvp where tank-focused characters get ignored and healers become the tanks/healers... (and those healers are often good dps too). The whole dynamic is based on the enemy being deliberately moronic and predictable.
AC1 and many muds don't have the triumvarate. Everything else that I've played is copying EQ1 (and copying copies of EQ1) as far as I can tell. I can't wait for another developer to try something new with game design. It seems like most new game devs are going nuts with story, quests and graphics and ignoring game design for whatever reason.
Yeah it makes no sense - it makes the games sad to watch if you aren't playing and is the main obstacle to there ever being a movie based on a current MMO... and it's not even fun. A whole class based on tricking the enemy into attacking it? Healers that can and do restore full health to one character many times over in less than 30 seconds? What fiction are these ideas based on? Even the original edition D&D healing is mostly about reducing downtime and NOT multiplying the fighter's HPs by infinity. And besides, the whole "taunting" thing goes out the window in pvp where tank-focused characters get ignored and healers become the tanks/healers... (and those healers are often good dps too). The whole dynamic is based on the enemy being deliberately moronic and predictable. AC1 and many muds don't have the triumvarate. Everything else that I've played is copying EQ1 (and copying copies of EQ1) as far as I can tell. I can't wait for another developer to try something new with game design. It seems like most new game devs are going nuts with story, quests and graphics and ignoring game design for whatever reason.
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
Or another way of looking at it:
Why is it 'realistic' that a caster can produce a ranged ball of fire, but it is somehow unrealistic that they can raise a magical fog which obscures them from the monster? It you have a class that uses 'magic' than the 'reality' is unlimited.
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
Yeah it makes no sense - it makes the games sad to watch if you aren't playing and is the main obstacle to there ever being a movie based on a current MMO... and it's not even fun. A whole class based on tricking the enemy into attacking it? Healers that can and do restore full health to one character many times over in less than 30 seconds? What fiction are these ideas based on? Even the original edition D&D healing is mostly about reducing downtime and NOT multiplying the fighter's HPs by infinity. And besides, the whole "taunting" thing goes out the window in pvp where tank-focused characters get ignored and healers become the tanks/healers... (and those healers are often good dps too). The whole dynamic is based on the enemy being deliberately moronic and predictable. AC1 and many muds don't have the triumvarate. Everything else that I've played is copying EQ1 (and copying copies of EQ1) as far as I can tell. I can't wait for another developer to try something new with game design. It seems like most new game devs are going nuts with story, quests and graphics and ignoring game design for whatever reason.
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
Yeah it makes no sense - it makes the games sad to watch if you aren't playing and is the main obstacle to there ever being a movie based on a current MMO... and it's not even fun. A whole class based on tricking the enemy into attacking it? Healers that can and do restore full health to one character many times over in less than 30 seconds? What fiction are these ideas based on? Even the original edition D&D healing is mostly about reducing downtime and NOT multiplying the fighter's HPs by infinity. And besides, the whole "taunting" thing goes out the window in pvp where tank-focused characters get ignored and healers become the tanks/healers... (and those healers are often good dps too). The whole dynamic is based on the enemy being deliberately moronic and predictable. AC1 and many muds don't have the triumvarate. Everything else that I've played is copying EQ1 (and copying copies of EQ1) as far as I can tell. I can't wait for another developer to try something new with game design. It seems like most new game devs are going nuts with story, quests and graphics and ignoring game design for whatever reason.
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
Or another way of looking at it:
Why is it 'realistic' that a caster can produce a ranged ball of fire, but it is somehow unrealistic that they can raise a magical fog which obscures them from the monster? It you have a class that uses 'magic' than the 'reality' is unlimited.
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
That lack of critical thinking here is a tragedy. Oh yes, sure you CAN pick out a given race or personality type that could be tricked into behaving foolishly. The VAST majority of raid and group encounters against bosses are not like this however. So pretending EVERY encounter is against an idiot simply does not make sense. Also, you are making a spurious argument when you say one lack of realism means nothing has to be realistic. A fantasy world generally has some exceptions to how things are normally done. There's magic, other sentient races, etc. However, standard logic and critical thinking do apply once all that is layed out. That's why all good fantasy novels and the like don't have the ridiculous tank-dps-healer system where ALL enemies attack the tank and if they attacked anyone else then that person would be dead within 6-10 seconds (in traditional fantasy people are actually capable). You don't have constant streams of healing that continually bring a person back from half-dead to full health every few seconds. You have standard melees with magic thrown in. MMORPGs largely do not replicate this not because it isn't possible, but because the early ones did not and current ones are stuck in a rut (apparently).
I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it). Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.
Edit: A lot of people seem to be completely misunderstanding what I am talking or about or unable to really conceive of a game that isn't married to the mechanics of theTank-Healer-DPS system (so they try to envision a game with the same threat mechanics or the like). From my latest post (as of this edit) here is what I am talking about:
I'm not saying I don't want roles. I am not saying I wany everyone to do everything. Please my posts if you aren't getting this. I AM saying I want everyone able to take damage. Well, than that means you DO want all roles to include the tank aspects. That's what makes a tank, they take damage. So if a healer can take damage just as well as a tank, then they become overpowered, because they also have healing. Or if a caster could take damage, they'd be unstoppable too, because you'd be dead by their dd's and dot's before you could get their hp's down, etc. etc. It could work, but it the 'trinity' of mmo's is like a house of cards, you cannot retain interdependence by adding more independence to each class, thus the cards fall. You can have a game where everyone has strong defensive abilities, but it would be a more solo oriented game, because you simply wouldn't need tanks at all period. If you think about those same fantasy novels and movies, you always see a plate wearing, non magic warrior type. What role would they have? Why would I pick a non-magic, non-holy plate wearing fighter, if the guy next to him has the same defenses but could also heal, and on the other side was magic weilding caster who also had equal defenses. Your idea has made a standard archetype role in the fantasy genre, obsolete. I am saying I hate the Aggro system that Tank-Healer-DPS implies. A system where the monsters always attack one guy (the tank), even though that doesn't make any sense. I dislike the reality break there. But this ISN"T how mmo's aggro system work. The aggro always goes to the healer and dps. The tanks role is to draw the aggro away from the vulnerable classes. The tank MUST use his skills to gain the aggro. You imply it is automatic and removes challenge. Haven't you ever played the tank and had a bitch of a time because of weaker classes stealing aggro? The monster's don't always attack one guy, but rather, the monster wants to attack everyone but the ONE guy you want him to attack. Think of a fantasy movie or novel. You might have one guy position to take the initial brunt of the attacks, but everyone can defend themselves if they are attacked. Some people can heal, not everyone, but they don't churn out big heals constantly on one person. If one person gets into a tight spot, then a friend lends them a hand either with magic or steel so they aren't take down. But how would a healer or caster ever get in a tight spot? They defend as well as traditional tanks. So if you are a healer, simply heal yourself. If you are a caster, you'd have enough hp to blast the mob before you could get the damage. And what if that caster or healer had a root ability. Where is the vulnerability? How do you take down a healer who has the defenses and hps of a tank? How do you ensure group interdependancy? Why would a healer need dps? Why would a caster need a healer? Why would you need a warrior or fighter at all?
A big dragon might breathe fire down on the heros, but one or two people have the capability of putting up a shield in response to that fire which will protect people. I don't know one mmo that doesn't have this exact scenario already. Example: fire breathing dragon, caster 1 uses a fire mitigation spell, caster 2 uses an temp hp increase, while a priest uses a temp defense bonus spell. This is so common, I'm not sure how you've missed it. I want a game that does THAT, where the monsters act in a fairly realistic manner and the people can handle themselves to a degree but are even stronger as a group. Well first, to say that you want 'realistic monsters' isn't really the right phrasing, in that monsters are magical, mythical beings that cannot be 'realistic' since they are not 'real' - hence the term 'fantasy game' not 'reality game'. I think what you are really saying is that you want 'believable' monsters. But to say that it isn't realistic for a healer to be weak and a tank to be strong is also ludicrous. Tell you what, go grab a buddhist monk and put him in a death match with a marine and tell me that the healer is just as strong at defense as a tank, in reality.
All that said......
The Diablo series maybe closer to what you are thinking because they eliminated healers almost all together. Potions for mana and health are the primary 'powering' up methods,so you don't have the need of a dedicated healer. But guess what, it also makes grouping in Diablo unecessary. People can solo the content just as well, the groups are not interdependent.People group in diablo because the loot is better in a group or just because they are hanging out with friends. It isn't necessary to survive the dungeon.
Your idea would work, but it would be a very different kind of game than an mmo.
This is a pretty good post about Aggro and Tanking in MMOs.
Some people may prefer solo games where a class, or skill based character can do everything, but you just cant call the tanking system "silly".
It may look silly and easy for a pure DPS player or a solo player, but everyone who is experienced in the tanking and healing role and focus more in group play knows that is much more in it than what it seems.
The idea that you have to have the Tank-Healer-DPS otherwise everything is soloable, everyone is the same, and there is no challenge is a ludicrous strawman. That's like say a military squad of 4 doesn't have specialists or that one of them could solo every mission. It's silly, it's trite, and it just isn't true. Groups in everyday life and in fantasy novels are more than the sum of their parts without resorting to the Tank-Healer-DPS system (from here on I will refer to it has THD), and without everyone being the same.
<<Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.>>
And which fantasy fiction has healers like WoW does (other than every other MMO but calling them fiction is like calling Pong fiction as far as I'm concerned)? You can look at comic books, mythologies, etc.. Which characters are all about getting or receiving mid-combat (near) instant ranged heal-other spam? Heck, pull in sci fi while you're at it. I don't give a crap about realism, but when I play a game based on Lord of the Rings, Conan or even comic books, it gets old fast when they become all about taunts and heals which aren't mentioned or used anywhere in the source material (or are extremely rare when they are).
Edit: I'm not saying that there's no player skill involved with current MMOs. I know that there is - it takes skill and focus to manage to stay awake through many epic boss fights these days (j/k). But that doesn't make the dynamic not silly.
<<Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.>> And which fantasy fiction has healers like WoW does (other than every other MMO but calling them fiction is like calling Pong fiction as far as I'm concerned)? You can look at comic books, mythologies, etc.. Which characters are all about getting or receiving mid-combat (near) instant ranged heal-other spam? Heck, pull in sci fi while you're at it. I don't give a crap about realism, but when I play a game based on Lord of the Rings, Conan or even comic books, it gets old fast when they become all about taunts and heals.
Ok.....I really don't know where to start with this.
Frodo could only be healed by elven magic when cut with a Mordor blade.
Sam taunted goblins off of Frodo.
Gandalf unlocked a magic door by an incantation.
Frodo was only saved due to magical mithril armor he was wearing.
Gollum used his sneak skill often.
Aragorn is a Ranger for God's sake.
So....what I'm getting at is yes, the roles are absolutely based on prose fiction.
And in the 1970's Gygax translated these roles into compartmentalized playable game mechanics. So you didn't have to read a whole book to get to the one chapter where someone was healed, and then 3 chapters later a wizard uses a magic bolt. Gygax created characters who used a variety of skills battle for battle, and Gygax decided to give some classes advantages over others and disadvantages to balance it out for the sake of making it a playable game. With measurable rules and balance.
What was copied and translated was the Gygax system, not the group dynamics from the novels Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian. But, in the Gygax models you have human brains coordinating with a human brain (the DM) - which opens up a variety of room where you can have infinite variables, because both parties are capable of abstract thought.
In a computer game, you have human brains coordinating with computer brain. Which closes abstract concepts that are possible in fictional books and traditional DnD.
You have to have calculable balance for a computer game to work. Even DnD is bogged down in calculations, but it all boils down to Heals offset by Armor offset by Damage.
It's "Rock, Paper, Scissors". Rock, paper scissors works because it has calculable balance. You remove rock, you don't have a game. Sure I could write a the most phenominal novel about Paper and Scissors adventures in a distant land, but it could never be a balanced game without Rock.
The sole reason that all computer mmo's have the holy trinity is because that is what a Computer is capable of, it has nothing to do with a developers creativity.
To add,
When Everquest first released, internet was just reaching most American homes. Remember dial up?
To be able to play a computer game with multiple people was the major selling point because it was new and novel and seemed technologically amazing to those of us who grew up from DOS to Windows 95.
Everquest made group interdependency imperative because that was the ENTIRE point.
Look at the critiques of WoW. They created a lot more independency in their roles and it created an entire subgame that is wholly soloable. And WoW is slammed every day in these forums for its 'easiness' and 'being dumbed down' and 'casual'.
So, take away the trinity all together and what would you have? Some classes WAY overpowered. Some classes WAY underpowered. Overpowered classes never needing a group. Underpowered classes always looking for an overpowered class to help them. That's the dynamic you have in fantasy fiction. Gandalf vs. Frodo would probably end up with hobbit pieces everywhere. Who'd play a hobbit in that game? Hence....they had to make the lore into a calculable, balanced structure, so it would actually be a game rather than simply Scissors vs. Paper.
---------------------------------------------
But if you are going to throw out the trinity, why not throw out the other thing that is totally unrealistic. How many times does the hero of a fantasy novel get whacked with an axe? In a computer game, you get slashed 1000s of times. But in the book or reality, one swift whack to the head and you are gone.
You want your games to be like the books you read? That means permadeath. That means the entire game is about running away, dodging shots, riposte, sneaking, blocking, etc. Because, you are only allowed maybe 3 or 4 whacks to the head period before you are dead.
Frodo almost died by one stab of the morgul blade (and incidently it took an elven healer to heal him but only after a ranger had taunted off the mobs). It only took one swing of the sword to kill the Witch King and he's an epic boss mob.
There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. And it makes playing make believe a lot more fun.
The idea that you have to have the Tank-Healer-DPS otherwise everything is soloable (1), everyone is the same, and there is no challenge is a ludicrous strawman. That's like say a military squad of 4 doesn't have specialists or that one of them could solo every mission. It's silly, it's trite, and it just isn't true. Groups in everyday life and in fantasy novels are more than the sum of their parts without resorting to the Tank-Healer-DPS system (from here on I will refer to it has THD), and without everyone being the same.
I didnt say that, what I said based on the nice post of Zorgo was.
1-In a game where everyone can do anything (it doesnt matter what exacly) the group need would be hurt at a point that would be a bunch of people "soloing together"..group gameplay goes beyond than just a bunch of people hitting monsters in the same way.
2-Ware are talking about playable fantasy not just fantasy novels.
3-You simplified and attacked the tank and healer concept, but your arguments doesnt express what that roles are about, this is why Zorgo post was so important to show, your counter arguments are very, very weak.
3-There are other ways of group gameplay, Oh yes, even GW has it done, but to come with a nice new idea, you just cant anilyze the pattern in a so simple way.
4-Yes, you can find "Tanks", "Healers", "Dpsers", "Hybrid" and "Support" even in fantasy novels...but remember, in a group game, it need to work somehow.
5-As I said, Zorgo Post is a pretty good post about Tanking and Aggro, most of "tank healer" critcism does not has a deeper thought on it, your arguments are not different.
6-Im always up to try something different, we are just talking about arguments and their weight here.
7-In a game where everybody can do the same, without serious limitations, without group "roles" (it doesnt matter if is class based or build based) we will see "the same" Tank-Dps-Healer type everywhere, just check Darkfall, most people are the same character for the same "group role"... even in fantasy novels you will find, the tough, surviver, leading and defender character, the deadly character, the "buffer" who will cure, heal and balance the "the group", the white knight with armor, the dark and corrupted knight...
8- The group roles of a game where everybody is a ranged dps (FPS, Starship game) of some kind, will be always different than the group roles of a melee/magic/arrows fantasy group.
Originally posted by Zorgo Ok.....I really don't know where to start with this. Frodo could only be healed by elven magic when cut with a Mordor blade.
That is NOT healing spam. I can't believe you are going with LotR for this, since every fight is NOT THD. Heck, there are NO healers in those fights at all. You give one example of magical healing to cure a poison. No one, however, is arguing there isn't magical healing in fantasy. We are saying there IS NO HEALING SPAM. The guy you quoted asked for an example of HEALING SPAM. You have NOT given one.
Sam taunted goblins off of Frodo.
Now there ARE examples of enemies being distracted, switching targets, etc. This does not mean there is TANKING, because that's a very different thing. When you have multiple people, all capable combatants, and one of them has all the attacks coming his way while the others kill the bad guys, THEN you have tanking. There is NO tanking in LotR. In all melees everyone fights and everyone has people attack them. There's no one guy who grabs all the aggro when multiple people are involved in the melee. Before you go talking about Strider rescuing the hobbits remember they weren't combatants there, they were victims (they weren't attack, just sitting there helpless and afraid, huge difference).
Gandalf unlocked a magic door by an incantation.
So? This has nothing to do with THD.
Frodo was only saved due to magical mithril armor he was wearing.
Oooo, someone wore armor! Again, nothing unique to THD here.
Gollum used his sneak skill often.
Aragorn is a Ranger for God's sake.
I think you are very confused about what we are talking about here. The argument is not that THD fantasy MMORPGs have no elements in common with fantasy books and movies. The argument is that the THD MECHANIC has no elements in common with fantasy books and movies. There are no TANKS, PEOPLE WHO HOLD ALL THE AGGRO, in fantasy books and movies. There are no HEALERS WHO SPAM HEALING CONSTANTLY DURING BATTLE in fantasy books and movies. There are no DAMAGE DEALERS WHO ARE NOT ATTACKED in fantasy books and movies.
So....what I'm getting at is yes, the roles are absolutely based on prose fiction.
The thing you are confusing here is that the THD roles must be the only possible roles and only possible mechanic. This isn't the case anymore than a Priest MUST be a Healer in a THD game. Sure, fantasy has roles for various characters, and each person has a unique set of abilities (generally), but that doesn't mean there's a tank, a healer, and damage dealers. More importantly, we aren't arguing that THD doesn't try to base itself on fiction to an extent. We are arguing the THD mechanic is based in fantasy fiction about as much as me being telekinetic is based on me knocking over a glass of water with my hand. It's a very loose basis. They keep the wizards, warriors, rogues, clerics, etc, just like my telekinetic story keeps the glass, me, and the glass getting knocked about. However, like I said above, there are no TANKS, HEALERS, or DAMAGE DEALERS in fantasy fiction that operate under anything like the THD mechanics.
JUST BECAUSE THERE ARE ROLES DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THD ROLES. (I would think saying this a few times in the past few pages might have made that clear).
And in the 1970's Gygax translated these roles into compartmentalized playable game mechanics. So you didn't have to read a whole book to get to the one chapter where someone was healed, and then 3 chapters later a wizard uses a magic bolt. Gygax created characters who used a variety of skills battle for battle, and Gygax decided to give some classes advantages over others and disadvantages to balance it out for the sake of making it a playable game. With measurable rules and balance. What was copied and translated was the Gygax system, not the group dynamics from the novels Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian. But, in the Gygax models you have human brains coordinating with a human brain (the DM) - which opens up a variety of room where you can have infinite variables, because both parties are capable of abstract thought.
Tabletop RPGs do NOT follow the the THD convention either. Sure there are some tactics used to try to keep the clothies from getting whacked on, but they are generally only so effective (and based on terrain and position). In any D&D game of any merit, you'll have archers and melee people attack the clothies. If they get hurt badly enough, then they'll have to run away. There's no threat meter that the Fighter taunts to get to the top of. Heck, there's no taunting (even in 4th which has some very light control methods here, there's nothing like THD). Everyone gets into the thick of combat, and everyone has to be able to defend themselves to some extent. Everyone also has to watch out for their friends.
In a computer game, you have human brains coordinating with computer brain. Which closes abstract concepts that are possible in fictional books and traditional DnD. You have to have calculable balance for a computer game to work. Even DnD is bogged down in calculations, but it all boils down to Heals offset by Armor offset by Damage. It's "Rock, Paper, Scissors". Rock, paper scissors works because it has calculable balance. You remove rock, you don't have a game. Sure I could write a the most phenominal novel about Paper and Scissors adventures in a distant land, but it could never be a balanced game without Rock.
Again, just because healing, damage taking, and damage dealing exists in fantasy doesn't mean that fantasy uses a THD system. THD has deep implications for how monsters choose who to attack, who is taking damage, where most of the damage is coming from, and where and how the healing is appearing.
Beyond that, THD is not Rock, Paper, Scissors. I don't mean to bust your analogy, but it falls apart pretty quickly. You don't have scissor monsters attack and your rock party members have to beat them. Just because it has three components with different roles doesn't mean it is rock paper scissors (heck just check out PvP in these games to see how that just doesn't work).
The sole reason that all computer mmo's have the holy trinity is because that is what a Computer is capable of, it has nothing to do with a developers creativity.
LOL. The idea that the only kind of MMORPG combat that can possible exist is THD is so ludicrous I can't believe you seriously think this. THD is a hack job at best, and people have already brought up games that do it differently (like Guild Wars, apparently.
But if you are going to throw out the trinity, why not throw out the other thing that is totally unrealistic. How many times does the hero of a fantasy novel get whacked with an axe? In a computer game, you get slashed 1000s of times. But in the book or reality, one swift whack to the head and you are gone.
Easily fixed by just changing words. "Health" becomes "Endurance". When you lose your endurance, your ability to stop, avoid, or otherwise resist a blow is gone, and the next one kills you. (Obviously you might get some minor scratches and burns as your Endurance goes down, or something else depending on what sort of foe you are fighting).
You want your games to be like the books you read? That means permadeath. That means the entire game is about running away, dodging shots, riposte, sneaking, blocking, etc. Because, you are only allowed maybe 3 or 4 whacks to the head period before you are dead.
*Sigh* Throwing out THD is to make the game more fun. Make it feel more realistic in a fun way. Permanent Death generally doesn't make the game more fun. It's about the fun.
Frodo almost died by one stab of the morgul blade (and incidently it took an elven healer to heal him but only after a ranger had taunted off the mobs). It only took one swing of the sword to kill the Witch King and he's an epic boss mob. There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. And it makes playing make believe a lot more fun.
Strider didn't "taunt" the mobs in any sort of THD way. Strider was a threat to them, and Frodo wasn't. Naturally if something that actually threatens you shows up, you have to deal with it. Normally you try to lessen the threat against you however you can. A decent interpretation of this is how Guild Wars apparently works. You go after whomever you think you can kill quickest, with, I think, a factor in there for how much of a threat they are.
Also, I don't care for your rewriting of the LotR. You act like Elrond was there in the fight and healed Frodo in the combat, which is not remotely what happened at all. Now there is fantasy where there's healing in combat, but again you don't have ONE PERSON WHO TAKES ALL THE AGGRO, and you don't have HEALS SPAMMED ON HIM. The healing is generally not spammed, but much more limited. There's less damage being done than in a typical MMORPG as well, of course.
Just a side note, even in most MMOs it is possible to have fun outside the THD formula and hybrids are common in most games today.
You can also have some good THD experience, what is good for a lot of players who enjoy defensive roles in group gameplay.
But the argument about mobs just attacking the tank and never the healer/dps is one of the weakests and out of reality arguments about this subject, everyone who belives this should try to be a tank in harder dungeons/instances/raids etc.
The idea that you have to have the Tank-Healer-DPS otherwise everything is soloable (1), everyone is the same, and there is no challenge is a ludicrous strawman. That's like say a military squad of 4 doesn't have specialists or that one of them could solo every mission. It's silly, it's trite, and it just isn't true. Groups in everyday life and in fantasy novels are more than the sum of their parts without resorting to the Tank-Healer-DPS system (from here on I will refer to it has THD), and without everyone being the same.
I didnt say that, what I said based on the nice post of Zorgo was.
1-In a game where everyone can do anything (it doesnt matter what exacly) the group need would be hurt at a point that would be a bunch of people "soloing together"..group gameplay goes beyond than just a bunch of people hitting monsters in the same way.
2-Ware are talking about playable fantasy not just fantasy novels.
3-You simplified and attacked the tank and healer concept, but your arguments doesnt express what that roles are about, this is why Zorgo post was so important to show, your counter arguments are very, very weak.
3-There are other ways of group gameplay, Oh yes, even GW has it done, but to come with a nice new idea, you just cant anilyze the pattern in a so simple way.
4-Yes, you can find "Tanks", "Healers", "Dpsers", "Hybrid" and "Support" even in fantasy novels...but remember, in a group game, it need to work somehow.
5-As I said, Zorgo Post is a pretty good post about Tanking and Aggro, most of "tank healer" critcism does not has a deeper thought on it, your arguments are not different.
6-Im always up to try something different, we are just talking about arguments and their weight here.
7-In a game where everybody can do the same, without serious limitations, without group "roles" (it doesnt matter if is class based or build based) we will see "the same" Tank-Dps-Healer type everywhere, just check Darkfall, most people are the same character for the same "group role"... even in fantasy novels you will find, the tough, surviver, leading and defender character, the deadly character, the "buffer" who will cure, heal and balance the "the group", the white knight with armor, the dark and corrupted knight...
8- The group roles of a game where everybody is a ranged dps (FPS, Starship game) of some kind, will be always different than the group roles of a melee/magic/arrows fantasy group.
1. That's a Strawman. NO ONE IS PROPOSING A SYSTEM WHERE EVERYONE CAN DO ANYTHING.
2. Fantasy Novels form the basis for a ton of playable fantasy. D&D does not use a THD system, and it is certainly playable fantasy. Feel free to pick ANY fantasy P&P RPG for another example of something that isn't THD.
3. My argument is entirely on what the roles are about. The Tank role is ABOUT getting everyone in the conflict to attack him. The DPS role is ABOUT not being attacked by anyone and providing the vast majority of the killing power. The Healer role is ABOUT not getting hit and keeping everyone alive by spamming heals over and over and doing basically nothing else. The problem is several people are confusing these things with wizards, priests, any kind of healing at all, any kind of damage taking or dealing at all, etc. I am very specifically talking about the roles in a THD system and how they are not at all like how combat in a fantasy novel, P&P rpg, movie, or the like works. Like you said, there are other ways to do this, and the initial post was asking if there were games out there like that. People then responded by saying such games couldn't exist, would be stupid, etc, etc into various ridiculous statements.
4. No you can't. Go and try. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose job is to get all the enemies to attack him. There's no person in a fantasy novels whose job it is to just spam heals during combat. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose jobit is to provide the vast majority of the killing power. That's just now how it works, and for good reason. It's bloody ridiculous. First bad guy that isn't insanely stupid would kill the healer first, because in a THD system the healing dies to a strong wind (and then so do the DPS). Why is this essentialy in a THD system? Because otherwise there'd be no need for a tank and the system would fall apart. Hence the H and D players are designed to be unreasonable fragile.
5. The basic concept is the problem. The basic job of each person in a THD system is the problem and source of lack of realism. Sure, some games make holding aggro harder than in other THD games, but the basic point is for the Tank to hold all tha aggro and basically take all the damage if humanely possible. The basic point for the healer to constantly spam heals to keep the tank alive. The basic point for the DPS is to churn out damage constantly to provide all the actual killing power. The various ways this is implemented don't actually matter. The problem IS the roles in a THD system. The tank role, the healer role, the damage dealer role. That's the very heart of the problem.
6. Sure.
7. Again, no one is proposing that everyone can do the same thing. I've said this several times on the last few pages, I'm pretty sure. This is a gross misunderstanding one person who disagreed with me had of my position, but it is certainly not my position (or anyone elses). The problem here is that the THDers seem to think that if you changed the combat system, then someone still must be tanking, someone still must be spamming heals, and someone still must be dealing all the damage. They try to fit the THD roles onto another system that doesn't have those roles. It's about as appropriate as asking who the quarterback in baseball is. There'd still be roles, of course, and people would still be different, but those roles wouldn't be Tank, Healer, DPS. Take Guild Wars as an example. You have some classes that can provide healing, but their ROLE isn't to spam heals. Instead the combat is more about the tactics of controlling the enemy forces, making sure they don't all gang up on one person, etc, etc. Sure, some heals get tossed about, but it's more about positioning, working together, helping each other out, and killing the monsters. People still have their duties in a party, people still have their strengths, people still have their different methods of going about things. You just don't have THD. There's no "take as much damage as possible role", "focus only on healing as much damage as possible role", and "deal as much damage possible role." Now damage taking, healing, and dealing still get done, but it's not parsed the same way as in THD. Again, just like in fantasy books or P&P games, it just isn't parsed the same way. You in fact don't want one person to take all the damage -- they'd be surrounded and die.
8. Sure, but it is a huge mistake to think that a fantasy game MUST have the THD roles A big part of the problem in this thread is that people keep trying to name any system with those roles, and then if a system doesn't have those roles then "oh everyone can do anything!" Again, trying to use the THD labels on all fantasy stuff just doesn't work. Like I said above, it's like trying to find a quarterback in a baseball game.
Just a side note, even in most MMOs it is possible to have fun outside the THD formula and hybrids are common in most games today. You can also have some good THD experience, what is good for a lot of players who enjoy defensive roles in group gameplay. But the argument about mobs just attacking the tank and never the healer/dps is one of the weakests and out of reality arguments about this subject, everyone who belives this should try to be a tank in harder dungeons/instances/raids etc.
I have a level 80 Paladin in WoW (and I tanked with a druid at 70). I've played other THD games (CoH, FFXI, etc). I've completed all the content in WotLK, and I am quite familiar with how the system works. I know you can have fun with it, but I am simply tired of how artificial it seems and how idiotic it makes the bad guys seem. (I address the rest of the issues you just brought up in the post I made just before this).
1. That's a Strawman. NO ONE IS PROPOSING A SYSTEM WHERE EVERYONE CAN DO ANYTHING. 2. Fantasy Novels form the basis for a ton of playable fantasy. D&D does not use a THD system, and it is certainly playable fantasy. Feel free to pick ANY fantasy P&P RPG for another example of something that isn't THD. There is a huge "gameplay" differance between a P&P RPG and a MMORPG, I think a cooperative eletronic RPG game can reproduce it better, as you will be always playing with a small amount of players and especially players you know. The anonimous and massive side of MMOs work better without too much "chaotic" possibilities and some base roles to mantain a possibility of group gameplay THD concept with variations work better in sowrd/magic MMOs... some games like Everquest 2 and Vanguard has more chaotic aspects in their hard dungeons and raids, but the base still there. 4. No you can't. Go and try. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose job is to get all the enemies to attack him. There's no person in a fantasy novels whose job it is to just spam heals during combat. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose jobit is to provide the vast majority of the killing power. That's just now how it works, and for good reason. It's bloody ridiculous. First bad guy that isn't insanely stupid would kill the healer first, because in a THD system the healing dies to a strong wind (and then so do the DPS). Why is this essentialy in a THD system? Because otherwise there'd be no need for a tank and the system would fall apart. Hence the H and D players are designed to be unreasonable fragile. I think you are going too far with a realistic view, the bad guy would attack the fragile character first (as it happens in a MMORPG), but stronger character would defend it (as it would happen in a MMORPG) or the fragile would die, sometimes the fragile would be sneak and deadly, even in some of Conan stories you will notice this kind of thing , but it need to be expressed in a playable way inside a game... you cant take all the "gameplay" aspects comparing a game with fiction, I think similarities is the way to compare it. 8. Sure, but it is a huge mistake to think that a fantasy game MUST have the THD roles A big part of the problem in this thread is that people keep trying to name any system with those roles, and then if a system doesn't have those roles then "oh everyone can do anything!" Again, trying to use the THD labels on all fantasy stuff just doesn't work. Like I said above, it's like trying to find a quarterback in a baseball game. The issue is not "everyone can do everything" the issue is, players will want to do everything, check what happened with Darkfall, you played a lot of MMOs, you know at first everyone want to be the super hero and center of attention, Im not talking about what you want, but what people would do. Even in Guild Wars where this system is not like other MMOs, most groups are a mess, but as I said, Im open for new ideas, in MMOS or cooperative games. ...but I think you should reevaluate your arguments against healers and tanks, you simplify their roles in a non realistic way, I think this is one of the reasons some people are not taking your arguments seriously.
Originally posted by Drachasor 1. That's a Strawman. NO ONE IS PROPOSING A SYSTEM WHERE EVERYONE CAN DO ANYTHING. 2. Fantasy Novels form the basis for a ton of playable fantasy. D&D does not use a THD system, and it is certainly playable fantasy. Feel free to pick ANY fantasy P&P RPG for another example of something that isn't THD.
There is a huge "gameplay" differance between a P&P RPG and a MMORPG, I think a cooperative eletronic RPG game can reproduce it better, as you will be always playing with a small amount of players and especially players you know. The anonimous and massive side of MMOs work better without too much "chaotic" possibilities and some base roles to mantain a possibility of group gameplay THD concept with variations work better in sowrd/magic MMOs... some games like Everquest 2 and Vanguard has more chaotic aspects in their hard dungeons and raids, but the base still there.
You are saying it works better because hardly anyone has tried anything else. That's hardly a good argument. Just because basically no one has tried other things doesn't mean THD is better. Guild Wars would probably be an excellent counter-example. The point is that it certainly is doable, and you can't boldly declare that all other systems (most of which have not even occurred to you or me) are inherently inferior. That's ridiculous.
Originally posted by Umbral
Originally posted by Drachasor 4. No you can't. Go and try. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose job is to get all the enemies to attack him. There's no person in a fantasy novels whose job it is to just spam heals during combat. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose jobit is to provide the vast majority of the killing power. That's just now how it works, and for good reason. It's bloody ridiculous. First bad guy that isn't insanely stupid would kill the healer first, because in a THD system the healing dies to a strong wind (and then so do the DPS). Why is this essentialy in a THD system? Because otherwise there'd be no need for a tank and the system would fall apart. Hence the H and D players are designed to be unreasonable fragile.
I think you are going too far with a realistic view, the bad guy would attack the fragile character first (as it happens in a MMORPG), but stronger character would defend it (as it would happen in a MMORPG) or the fragile would die, sometimes the fragile would be sneak and deadly, even in some of Conan stories you will notice this kind of thing , but it need to be expressed in a playable way inside a game... you cant take all the "gameplay" aspects comparing a game with fiction, I think similarities is the way to compare it.
Except when it comes right down to it, the fragile guys aren't all the fragile. They can still handle themselves pretty well in literature. And the strong guys are not dependent on a constant stream of healing magic to keep them on their feet. There are definitely times when someone blocks on attack or intercepts an enemy or otherwise draws their attention in literature, but the whole mechanic of a Tank, A Healer, and the DPS just isn't there. Take the Conan stories, the people capable of fighting can handle themselves one on one just fine. There might be some people who can't fight and have to be protected. There might be some times when a single person is overwhelmed and has to be helped, but there's basically no one who is so incapable of defending themselves that they must always be kept out of melee combat or they'll die very quick.
Originally posted by Umbral
Originally posted by Drachasor 8. Sure, but it is a huge mistake to think that a fantasy game MUST have the THD roles A big part of the problem in this thread is that people keep trying to name any system with those roles, and then if a system doesn't have those roles then "oh everyone can do anything!" Again, trying to use the THD labels on all fantasy stuff just doesn't work. Like I said above, it's like trying to find a quarterback in a baseball game.
The issue is not "everyone can do everything" the issue is, players will want to do everything, check what happened with Darkfall, you played a lot of MMOs, you know at first everyone want to be the super hero and center of attention, Im not talking about what you want, but what people would do. Even in Guild Wars where this system is not like other MMOs, most groups are a mess, but as I said, Im open for new ideas, in MMOS or cooperative games. ...but I think you should reevaluate your arguments against healers and tanks, you simplify their roles in a non realistic way, I think this is one of the reasons some people are not taking your arguments seriously.
I'm not simplify their roles. I am stating what their job is. The tank's job IS to keep all the bad guys attacking him. The Healer's job IS to provide a constant stream of healing magic throughout the fight. How is that "simplifying" them? Sure, they encounter difficulties in performing those functions, but those ARE their functions. It is the functions I object to, not the difficulties they encounter performing them.
Frankly, I just think you underestimate people. People like to be capable, sure, and a non-THD would make them FEEL more capable. To propose that just because they can take a few hits means they'll let it all go to their head FOREVER (and not quickly learn you have to stick with your team and try to work with your allies) is silly. If the game rewards team play, then team play will happen. If people are stronger as a group, and have abilities to help each other out, and they need to use those abilities from time to time to survive, then they'll learn to use them and work as a team. Just like how new people learn they can't do everything in a THD system, people will learn the same thing in other systems.
Sorry mate but now you are talking about aggro,you are saying about ppl healing without getting killed or players not getting attacked. Well that is the holy trinity,if you have a good tank type and not an over zealous healer then it should go well everytime,what you seem to be asking is the target automatically spots the priest and runs and kills him 1st then moves onto the next "weakest" guy,basically leaving the tank to last. Well that would bring us back to the game that you want were everyone multi tasks,by your reasoning as soon as someone heals he should be killed 1st as he stops the others from being killed and so on and so forth. I mean who would want to heal in that sort of game,even as a support class I wouldnt heal.
*sigh* When I was talking about how you can one-shot healers, I was referring to existing games. Take WoW, for instance, any raid boss can kill a healer in one blow. EASY. I don't want a game like that. I want a game where IF someone that can heal gets targetted, then they can take a good amount of punishment. Sure you'd have guys who can take more (and probably have some abilities they let them intercept a blow here and there on others, and other guys who can provide magical shields or the like), but everyone can take a beating. You'd have some heals, but not a lot, so as combat went on people would get worn down (but not killed if done right).
Obviously no one would want to take a Tank/Healer/DPS game, keep the same level of survivability, and then change the aggro rules so everyone gets one-shotted before the tank gets attacked.Sounds more like you should sticl to single player games, all them have that ..
Kinda kills the MMO part, sounds like you should stick to single player games. i guess all would love to be a super nuker/tank/add i want pets too lol . as far as argo goes, well yes it would be more RL if a mob looks at a group and goes for the nuker first not caring about the weak tank.. but then noone would play.. most game no matter how they start all fall into class base even DF will soon, guilds will want better tanks and better people to heal so they will have cloth robe caster specialing in healing ..
I thought City of Heroes/Villains did a good job when it came to this. While some good DPS is never unwelcome, good crowd control and buffing/debuffing are far superior to the tanking/healing approach to things in that game.
...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...
Right, but if you look at the character creation screen, every archetype has a primary, and secondary set of skills. Which means a tank can also dps, or a buffer can also do ranged damage, and so on and so forth.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
Originally posted by sanedor Kinda kills the MMO part, sounds like you should stick to single player games. i guess all would love to be a super nuker/tank/add i want pets too lol . as far as argo goes, well yes it would be more RL if a mob looks at a group and goes for the nuker first not caring about the weak tank.. but then noone would play.. most game no matter how they start all fall into class base even DF will soon, guilds will want better tanks and better people to heal so they will have cloth robe caster specialing in healing ..
I try not to say things like this much, but seriously, L2R. Even my OP refutes your statements here.
The Chronicles of Spellborn has no real set healers, or tanks, and even the spellcasters can tank and the warriors can heal!
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
The Chronicles of Spellborn has no real set healers, or tanks, and even the spellcasters can tank and the warriors can heal!
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
I thought City of Heroes/Villains did a good job when it came to this. While some good DPS is never unwelcome, good crowd control and buffing/debuffing are far superior to the tanking/healing approach to things in that game.
...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...
Right, but if you look at the character creation screen, every archetype has a primary, and secondary set of skills. Which means a tank can also dps, or a buffer can also do ranged damage, and so on and so forth.
It has some small subversions, but it still has the THD roles (which I is what I want to get away from).
The Chronicles of Spellborn has no real set healers, or tanks, and even the spellcasters can tank and the warriors can heal!
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
Ahh, interesting. I had already started downloading it. I'll check it out since it is in open beta. Seems like the skilldeck system would make the healing effects rather limited in nature (e.g. you can't spam out heals constantly). Am I right in that?
I like how it seems focused on making the combat interesting and engaging, rather than having to make it half about the items you get out of the combat. It'll be interested to see what sort of abilities there are to help out allies.
Comments
Yeah it makes no sense - it makes the games sad to watch if you aren't playing and is the main obstacle to there ever being a movie based on a current MMO... and it's not even fun. A whole class based on tricking the enemy into attacking it? Healers that can and do restore full health to one character many times over in less than 30 seconds? What fiction are these ideas based on? Even the original edition D&D healing is mostly about reducing downtime and NOT multiplying the fighter's HPs by infinity. And besides, the whole "taunting" thing goes out the window in pvp where tank-focused characters get ignored and healers become the tanks/healers... (and those healers are often good dps too). The whole dynamic is based on the enemy being deliberately moronic and predictable.
AC1 and many muds don't have the triumvarate. Everything else that I've played is copying EQ1 (and copying copies of EQ1) as far as I can tell. I can't wait for another developer to try something new with game design. It seems like most new game devs are going nuts with story, quests and graphics and ignoring game design for whatever reason.
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
Or another way of looking at it:
Why is it 'realistic' that a caster can produce a ranged ball of fire, but it is somehow unrealistic that they can raise a magical fog which obscures them from the monster? It you have a class that uses 'magic' than the 'reality' is unlimited.
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
nice
Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.
Y'know most pvp games now have forced taunting- you can't just ignore it anymore.
Who ever would have thought an orc would be stupid, gullible and easily enraged? How about your tank can taunt because you are a mythical warrior with honed abilities that gode mobs into doing your will. My god, it would be like you are playing some fantastical warrior from a magic land or something if they had those powers....
Or another way of looking at it:
Why is it 'realistic' that a caster can produce a ranged ball of fire, but it is somehow unrealistic that they can raise a magical fog which obscures them from the monster? It you have a class that uses 'magic' than the 'reality' is unlimited.
And if only the casters and dps and healers had magical abilities that either added hate to the tank or prevented the monster from noticing you....oh wait they do.
Sounds like a lot of you don't actually want a fantasy game at all, but rather a 'reality' game. And if you took your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd end up with a bunch of dead people at the feet of that bad guy - and it couldn't be a fire-breathing dragon, since a cold blooded reptile that size breathing fire is totally ludicrous. Oh and you wouldn't respawn.
The moment you start trying to think how one could 'realistically' kill a fire-breathing dragon is the point you've forgotten that it is a fantasy game based on magic.
That lack of critical thinking here is a tragedy. Oh yes, sure you CAN pick out a given race or personality type that could be tricked into behaving foolishly. The VAST majority of raid and group encounters against bosses are not like this however. So pretending EVERY encounter is against an idiot simply does not make sense. Also, you are making a spurious argument when you say one lack of realism means nothing has to be realistic. A fantasy world generally has some exceptions to how things are normally done. There's magic, other sentient races, etc. However, standard logic and critical thinking do apply once all that is layed out. That's why all good fantasy novels and the like don't have the ridiculous tank-dps-healer system where ALL enemies attack the tank and if they attacked anyone else then that person would be dead within 6-10 seconds (in traditional fantasy people are actually capable). You don't have constant streams of healing that continually bring a person back from half-dead to full health every few seconds. You have standard melees with magic thrown in. MMORPGs largely do not replicate this not because it isn't possible, but because the early ones did not and current ones are stuck in a rut (apparently).
All that said......
The Diablo series maybe closer to what you are thinking because they eliminated healers almost all together. Potions for mana and health are the primary 'powering' up methods,so you don't have the need of a dedicated healer. But guess what, it also makes grouping in Diablo unecessary. People can solo the content just as well, the groups are not interdependent.People group in diablo because the loot is better in a group or just because they are hanging out with friends. It isn't necessary to survive the dungeon.
Your idea would work, but it would be a very different kind of game than an mmo.
This is a pretty good post about Aggro and Tanking in MMOs.
Some people may prefer solo games where a class, or skill based character can do everything, but you just cant call the tanking system "silly".
It may look silly and easy for a pure DPS player or a solo player, but everyone who is experienced in the tanking and healing role and focus more in group play knows that is much more in it than what it seems.
...
The idea that you have to have the Tank-Healer-DPS otherwise everything is soloable, everyone is the same, and there is no challenge is a ludicrous strawman. That's like say a military squad of 4 doesn't have specialists or that one of them could solo every mission. It's silly, it's trite, and it just isn't true. Groups in everyday life and in fantasy novels are more than the sum of their parts without resorting to the Tank-Healer-DPS system (from here on I will refer to it has THD), and without everyone being the same.
<<Exactly that: 'fiction'. These aren't reality games, they are fantasy games.>>
And which fantasy fiction has healers like WoW does (other than every other MMO but calling them fiction is like calling Pong fiction as far as I'm concerned)? You can look at comic books, mythologies, etc.. Which characters are all about getting or receiving mid-combat (near) instant ranged heal-other spam? Heck, pull in sci fi while you're at it. I don't give a crap about realism, but when I play a game based on Lord of the Rings, Conan or even comic books, it gets old fast when they become all about taunts and heals which aren't mentioned or used anywhere in the source material (or are extremely rare when they are).
Edit: I'm not saying that there's no player skill involved with current MMOs. I know that there is - it takes skill and focus to manage to stay awake through many epic boss fights these days (j/k). But that doesn't make the dynamic not silly.
Ok.....I really don't know where to start with this.
Frodo could only be healed by elven magic when cut with a Mordor blade.
Sam taunted goblins off of Frodo.
Gandalf unlocked a magic door by an incantation.
Frodo was only saved due to magical mithril armor he was wearing.
Gollum used his sneak skill often.
Aragorn is a Ranger for God's sake.
So....what I'm getting at is yes, the roles are absolutely based on prose fiction.
And in the 1970's Gygax translated these roles into compartmentalized playable game mechanics. So you didn't have to read a whole book to get to the one chapter where someone was healed, and then 3 chapters later a wizard uses a magic bolt. Gygax created characters who used a variety of skills battle for battle, and Gygax decided to give some classes advantages over others and disadvantages to balance it out for the sake of making it a playable game. With measurable rules and balance.
What was copied and translated was the Gygax system, not the group dynamics from the novels Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian. But, in the Gygax models you have human brains coordinating with a human brain (the DM) - which opens up a variety of room where you can have infinite variables, because both parties are capable of abstract thought.
In a computer game, you have human brains coordinating with computer brain. Which closes abstract concepts that are possible in fictional books and traditional DnD.
You have to have calculable balance for a computer game to work. Even DnD is bogged down in calculations, but it all boils down to Heals offset by Armor offset by Damage.
It's "Rock, Paper, Scissors". Rock, paper scissors works because it has calculable balance. You remove rock, you don't have a game. Sure I could write a the most phenominal novel about Paper and Scissors adventures in a distant land, but it could never be a balanced game without Rock.
The sole reason that all computer mmo's have the holy trinity is because that is what a Computer is capable of, it has nothing to do with a developers creativity.
To add,
When Everquest first released, internet was just reaching most American homes. Remember dial up?
To be able to play a computer game with multiple people was the major selling point because it was new and novel and seemed technologically amazing to those of us who grew up from DOS to Windows 95.
Everquest made group interdependency imperative because that was the ENTIRE point.
Look at the critiques of WoW. They created a lot more independency in their roles and it created an entire subgame that is wholly soloable. And WoW is slammed every day in these forums for its 'easiness' and 'being dumbed down' and 'casual'.
So, take away the trinity all together and what would you have? Some classes WAY overpowered. Some classes WAY underpowered. Overpowered classes never needing a group. Underpowered classes always looking for an overpowered class to help them. That's the dynamic you have in fantasy fiction. Gandalf vs. Frodo would probably end up with hobbit pieces everywhere. Who'd play a hobbit in that game? Hence....they had to make the lore into a calculable, balanced structure, so it would actually be a game rather than simply Scissors vs. Paper.
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But if you are going to throw out the trinity, why not throw out the other thing that is totally unrealistic. How many times does the hero of a fantasy novel get whacked with an axe? In a computer game, you get slashed 1000s of times. But in the book or reality, one swift whack to the head and you are gone.
You want your games to be like the books you read? That means permadeath. That means the entire game is about running away, dodging shots, riposte, sneaking, blocking, etc. Because, you are only allowed maybe 3 or 4 whacks to the head period before you are dead.
Frodo almost died by one stab of the morgul blade (and incidently it took an elven healer to heal him but only after a ranger had taunted off the mobs). It only took one swing of the sword to kill the Witch King and he's an epic boss mob.
There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. And it makes playing make believe a lot more fun.
I didnt say that, what I said based on the nice post of Zorgo was.
1-In a game where everyone can do anything (it doesnt matter what exacly) the group need would be hurt at a point that would be a bunch of people "soloing together"..group gameplay goes beyond than just a bunch of people hitting monsters in the same way.
2-Ware are talking about playable fantasy not just fantasy novels.
3-You simplified and attacked the tank and healer concept, but your arguments doesnt express what that roles are about, this is why Zorgo post was so important to show, your counter arguments are very, very weak.
3-There are other ways of group gameplay, Oh yes, even GW has it done, but to come with a nice new idea, you just cant anilyze the pattern in a so simple way.
4-Yes, you can find "Tanks", "Healers", "Dpsers", "Hybrid" and "Support" even in fantasy novels...but remember, in a group game, it need to work somehow.
5-As I said, Zorgo Post is a pretty good post about Tanking and Aggro, most of "tank healer" critcism does not has a deeper thought on it, your arguments are not different.
6-Im always up to try something different, we are just talking about arguments and their weight here.
7-In a game where everybody can do the same, without serious limitations, without group "roles" (it doesnt matter if is class based or build based) we will see "the same" Tank-Dps-Healer type everywhere, just check Darkfall, most people are the same character for the same "group role"... even in fantasy novels you will find, the tough, surviver, leading and defender character, the deadly character, the "buffer" who will cure, heal and balance the "the group", the white knight with armor, the dark and corrupted knight...
8- The group roles of a game where everybody is a ranged dps (FPS, Starship game) of some kind, will be always different than the group roles of a melee/magic/arrows fantasy group.
That is NOT healing spam. I can't believe you are going with LotR for this, since every fight is NOT THD. Heck, there are NO healers in those fights at all. You give one example of magical healing to cure a poison. No one, however, is arguing there isn't magical healing in fantasy. We are saying there IS NO HEALING SPAM. The guy you quoted asked for an example of HEALING SPAM. You have NOT given one.
Now there ARE examples of enemies being distracted, switching targets, etc. This does not mean there is TANKING, because that's a very different thing. When you have multiple people, all capable combatants, and one of them has all the attacks coming his way while the others kill the bad guys, THEN you have tanking. There is NO tanking in LotR. In all melees everyone fights and everyone has people attack them. There's no one guy who grabs all the aggro when multiple people are involved in the melee. Before you go talking about Strider rescuing the hobbits remember they weren't combatants there, they were victims (they weren't attack, just sitting there helpless and afraid, huge difference).
So? This has nothing to do with THD.
Oooo, someone wore armor! Again, nothing unique to THD here.
I think you are very confused about what we are talking about here. The argument is not that THD fantasy MMORPGs have no elements in common with fantasy books and movies. The argument is that the THD MECHANIC has no elements in common with fantasy books and movies. There are no TANKS, PEOPLE WHO HOLD ALL THE AGGRO, in fantasy books and movies. There are no HEALERS WHO SPAM HEALING CONSTANTLY DURING BATTLE in fantasy books and movies. There are no DAMAGE DEALERS WHO ARE NOT ATTACKED in fantasy books and movies.
The thing you are confusing here is that the THD roles must be the only possible roles and only possible mechanic. This isn't the case anymore than a Priest MUST be a Healer in a THD game. Sure, fantasy has roles for various characters, and each person has a unique set of abilities (generally), but that doesn't mean there's a tank, a healer, and damage dealers. More importantly, we aren't arguing that THD doesn't try to base itself on fiction to an extent. We are arguing the THD mechanic is based in fantasy fiction about as much as me being telekinetic is based on me knocking over a glass of water with my hand. It's a very loose basis. They keep the wizards, warriors, rogues, clerics, etc, just like my telekinetic story keeps the glass, me, and the glass getting knocked about. However, like I said above, there are no TANKS, HEALERS, or DAMAGE DEALERS in fantasy fiction that operate under anything like the THD mechanics.
JUST BECAUSE THERE ARE ROLES DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THD ROLES. (I would think saying this a few times in the past few pages might have made that clear).
Tabletop RPGs do NOT follow the the THD convention either. Sure there are some tactics used to try to keep the clothies from getting whacked on, but they are generally only so effective (and based on terrain and position). In any D&D game of any merit, you'll have archers and melee people attack the clothies. If they get hurt badly enough, then they'll have to run away. There's no threat meter that the Fighter taunts to get to the top of. Heck, there's no taunting (even in 4th which has some very light control methods here, there's nothing like THD). Everyone gets into the thick of combat, and everyone has to be able to defend themselves to some extent. Everyone also has to watch out for their friends.
Again, just because healing, damage taking, and damage dealing exists in fantasy doesn't mean that fantasy uses a THD system. THD has deep implications for how monsters choose who to attack, who is taking damage, where most of the damage is coming from, and where and how the healing is appearing.
Beyond that, THD is not Rock, Paper, Scissors. I don't mean to bust your analogy, but it falls apart pretty quickly. You don't have scissor monsters attack and your rock party members have to beat them. Just because it has three components with different roles doesn't mean it is rock paper scissors (heck just check out PvP in these games to see how that just doesn't work).
LOL. The idea that the only kind of MMORPG combat that can possible exist is THD is so ludicrous I can't believe you seriously think this. THD is a hack job at best, and people have already brought up games that do it differently (like Guild Wars, apparently.
Easily fixed by just changing words. "Health" becomes "Endurance". When you lose your endurance, your ability to stop, avoid, or otherwise resist a blow is gone, and the next one kills you. (Obviously you might get some minor scratches and burns as your Endurance goes down, or something else depending on what sort of foe you are fighting).
*Sigh* Throwing out THD is to make the game more fun. Make it feel more realistic in a fun way. Permanent Death generally doesn't make the game more fun. It's about the fun.
Strider didn't "taunt" the mobs in any sort of THD way. Strider was a threat to them, and Frodo wasn't. Naturally if something that actually threatens you shows up, you have to deal with it. Normally you try to lessen the threat against you however you can. A decent interpretation of this is how Guild Wars apparently works. You go after whomever you think you can kill quickest, with, I think, a factor in there for how much of a threat they are.
Also, I don't care for your rewriting of the LotR. You act like Elrond was there in the fight and healed Frodo in the combat, which is not remotely what happened at all. Now there is fantasy where there's healing in combat, but again you don't have ONE PERSON WHO TAKES ALL THE AGGRO, and you don't have HEALS SPAMMED ON HIM. The healing is generally not spammed, but much more limited. There's less damage being done than in a typical MMORPG as well, of course.
Just a side note, even in most MMOs it is possible to have fun outside the THD formula and hybrids are common in most games today.
You can also have some good THD experience, what is good for a lot of players who enjoy defensive roles in group gameplay.
But the argument about mobs just attacking the tank and never the healer/dps is one of the weakests and out of reality arguments about this subject, everyone who belives this should try to be a tank in harder dungeons/instances/raids etc.
I didnt say that, what I said based on the nice post of Zorgo was.
1-In a game where everyone can do anything (it doesnt matter what exacly) the group need would be hurt at a point that would be a bunch of people "soloing together"..group gameplay goes beyond than just a bunch of people hitting monsters in the same way.
2-Ware are talking about playable fantasy not just fantasy novels.
3-You simplified and attacked the tank and healer concept, but your arguments doesnt express what that roles are about, this is why Zorgo post was so important to show, your counter arguments are very, very weak.
3-There are other ways of group gameplay, Oh yes, even GW has it done, but to come with a nice new idea, you just cant anilyze the pattern in a so simple way.
4-Yes, you can find "Tanks", "Healers", "Dpsers", "Hybrid" and "Support" even in fantasy novels...but remember, in a group game, it need to work somehow.
5-As I said, Zorgo Post is a pretty good post about Tanking and Aggro, most of "tank healer" critcism does not has a deeper thought on it, your arguments are not different.
6-Im always up to try something different, we are just talking about arguments and their weight here.
7-In a game where everybody can do the same, without serious limitations, without group "roles" (it doesnt matter if is class based or build based) we will see "the same" Tank-Dps-Healer type everywhere, just check Darkfall, most people are the same character for the same "group role"... even in fantasy novels you will find, the tough, surviver, leading and defender character, the deadly character, the "buffer" who will cure, heal and balance the "the group", the white knight with armor, the dark and corrupted knight...
8- The group roles of a game where everybody is a ranged dps (FPS, Starship game) of some kind, will be always different than the group roles of a melee/magic/arrows fantasy group.
1. That's a Strawman. NO ONE IS PROPOSING A SYSTEM WHERE EVERYONE CAN DO ANYTHING.
2. Fantasy Novels form the basis for a ton of playable fantasy. D&D does not use a THD system, and it is certainly playable fantasy. Feel free to pick ANY fantasy P&P RPG for another example of something that isn't THD.
3. My argument is entirely on what the roles are about. The Tank role is ABOUT getting everyone in the conflict to attack him. The DPS role is ABOUT not being attacked by anyone and providing the vast majority of the killing power. The Healer role is ABOUT not getting hit and keeping everyone alive by spamming heals over and over and doing basically nothing else. The problem is several people are confusing these things with wizards, priests, any kind of healing at all, any kind of damage taking or dealing at all, etc. I am very specifically talking about the roles in a THD system and how they are not at all like how combat in a fantasy novel, P&P rpg, movie, or the like works. Like you said, there are other ways to do this, and the initial post was asking if there were games out there like that. People then responded by saying such games couldn't exist, would be stupid, etc, etc into various ridiculous statements.
4. No you can't. Go and try. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose job is to get all the enemies to attack him. There's no person in a fantasy novels whose job it is to just spam heals during combat. There's no person in a fantasy novel whose jobit is to provide the vast majority of the killing power. That's just now how it works, and for good reason. It's bloody ridiculous. First bad guy that isn't insanely stupid would kill the healer first, because in a THD system the healing dies to a strong wind (and then so do the DPS). Why is this essentialy in a THD system? Because otherwise there'd be no need for a tank and the system would fall apart. Hence the H and D players are designed to be unreasonable fragile.
5. The basic concept is the problem. The basic job of each person in a THD system is the problem and source of lack of realism. Sure, some games make holding aggro harder than in other THD games, but the basic point is for the Tank to hold all tha aggro and basically take all the damage if humanely possible. The basic point for the healer to constantly spam heals to keep the tank alive. The basic point for the DPS is to churn out damage constantly to provide all the actual killing power. The various ways this is implemented don't actually matter. The problem IS the roles in a THD system. The tank role, the healer role, the damage dealer role. That's the very heart of the problem.
6. Sure.
7. Again, no one is proposing that everyone can do the same thing. I've said this several times on the last few pages, I'm pretty sure. This is a gross misunderstanding one person who disagreed with me had of my position, but it is certainly not my position (or anyone elses). The problem here is that the THDers seem to think that if you changed the combat system, then someone still must be tanking, someone still must be spamming heals, and someone still must be dealing all the damage. They try to fit the THD roles onto another system that doesn't have those roles. It's about as appropriate as asking who the quarterback in baseball is. There'd still be roles, of course, and people would still be different, but those roles wouldn't be Tank, Healer, DPS. Take Guild Wars as an example. You have some classes that can provide healing, but their ROLE isn't to spam heals. Instead the combat is more about the tactics of controlling the enemy forces, making sure they don't all gang up on one person, etc, etc. Sure, some heals get tossed about, but it's more about positioning, working together, helping each other out, and killing the monsters. People still have their duties in a party, people still have their strengths, people still have their different methods of going about things. You just don't have THD. There's no "take as much damage as possible role", "focus only on healing as much damage as possible role", and "deal as much damage possible role." Now damage taking, healing, and dealing still get done, but it's not parsed the same way as in THD. Again, just like in fantasy books or P&P games, it just isn't parsed the same way. You in fact don't want one person to take all the damage -- they'd be surrounded and die.
8. Sure, but it is a huge mistake to think that a fantasy game MUST have the THD roles A big part of the problem in this thread is that people keep trying to name any system with those roles, and then if a system doesn't have those roles then "oh everyone can do anything!" Again, trying to use the THD labels on all fantasy stuff just doesn't work. Like I said above, it's like trying to find a quarterback in a baseball game.
I have a level 80 Paladin in WoW (and I tanked with a druid at 70). I've played other THD games (CoH, FFXI, etc). I've completed all the content in WotLK, and I am quite familiar with how the system works. I know you can have fun with it, but I am simply tired of how artificial it seems and how idiotic it makes the bad guys seem. (I address the rest of the issues you just brought up in the post I made just before this).
You are saying it works better because hardly anyone has tried anything else. That's hardly a good argument. Just because basically no one has tried other things doesn't mean THD is better. Guild Wars would probably be an excellent counter-example. The point is that it certainly is doable, and you can't boldly declare that all other systems (most of which have not even occurred to you or me) are inherently inferior. That's ridiculous.
Except when it comes right down to it, the fragile guys aren't all the fragile. They can still handle themselves pretty well in literature. And the strong guys are not dependent on a constant stream of healing magic to keep them on their feet. There are definitely times when someone blocks on attack or intercepts an enemy or otherwise draws their attention in literature, but the whole mechanic of a Tank, A Healer, and the DPS just isn't there. Take the Conan stories, the people capable of fighting can handle themselves one on one just fine. There might be some people who can't fight and have to be protected. There might be some times when a single person is overwhelmed and has to be helped, but there's basically no one who is so incapable of defending themselves that they must always be kept out of melee combat or they'll die very quick.
I'm not simplify their roles. I am stating what their job is. The tank's job IS to keep all the bad guys attacking him. The Healer's job IS to provide a constant stream of healing magic throughout the fight. How is that "simplifying" them? Sure, they encounter difficulties in performing those functions, but those ARE their functions. It is the functions I object to, not the difficulties they encounter performing them.
Frankly, I just think you underestimate people. People like to be capable, sure, and a non-THD would make them FEEL more capable. To propose that just because they can take a few hits means they'll let it all go to their head FOREVER (and not quickly learn you have to stick with your team and try to work with your allies) is silly. If the game rewards team play, then team play will happen. If people are stronger as a group, and have abilities to help each other out, and they need to use those abilities from time to time to survive, then they'll learn to use them and work as a team. Just like how new people learn they can't do everything in a THD system, people will learn the same thing in other systems.
*sigh* When I was talking about how you can one-shot healers, I was referring to existing games. Take WoW, for instance, any raid boss can kill a healer in one blow. EASY. I don't want a game like that. I want a game where IF someone that can heal gets targetted, then they can take a good amount of punishment. Sure you'd have guys who can take more (and probably have some abilities they let them intercept a blow here and there on others, and other guys who can provide magical shields or the like), but everyone can take a beating. You'd have some heals, but not a lot, so as combat went on people would get worn down (but not killed if done right).
Obviously no one would want to take a Tank/Healer/DPS game, keep the same level of survivability, and then change the aggro rules so everyone gets one-shotted before the tank gets attacked.Sounds more like you should sticl to single player games, all them have that ..
Kinda kills the MMO part, sounds like you should stick to single player games. i guess all would love to be a super nuker/tank/add i want pets too lol . as far as argo goes, well yes it would be more RL if a mob looks at a group and goes for the nuker first not caring about the weak tank.. but then noone would play.. most game no matter how they start all fall into class base even DF will soon, guilds will want better tanks and better people to heal so they will have cloth robe caster specialing in healing ..
Asherons Call.
The Chronicles of Spellborn
the best way to kill a troll is to FLAME ON! ...or with acid...
The Chronicles of Spellborn has no real set healers, or tanks, and even the spellcasters can tank and the warriors can heal!
...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...
Right, but if you look at the character creation screen, every archetype has a primary, and secondary set of skills. Which means a tank can also dps, or a buffer can also do ranged damage, and so on and so forth.
Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.
I try not to say things like this much, but seriously, L2R. Even my OP refutes your statements here.
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/192358/All-you-need-too-know-about-sigilspve-and-more.html
enough there to get you started
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/235780/page/8
...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...
Right, but if you look at the character creation screen, every archetype has a primary, and secondary set of skills. Which means a tank can also dps, or a buffer can also do ranged damage, and so on and so forth.
It has some small subversions, but it still has the THD roles (which I is what I want to get away from).
How do the monsters decide who to attack in a group setting? The game looks interesting (skill deck system looks neat). If group tactics boil down to one person trying to grab all the aggro, another person spamming heals, etc, then I don't want it though. Looks like it might avoid that, but I couldn't find any info on that very quickly.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/192358/All-you-need-too-know-about-sigilspve-and-more.html
enough there to get you started
Ahh, interesting. I had already started downloading it. I'll check it out since it is in open beta. Seems like the skilldeck system would make the healing effects rather limited in nature (e.g. you can't spam out heals constantly). Am I right in that?
I like how it seems focused on making the combat interesting and engaging, rather than having to make it half about the items you get out of the combat. It'll be interested to see what sort of abilities there are to help out allies.
Thanks for the info.