My answer would be yes, but no at the same time. i want it to be casual enough for when i dont have much time, but still have the in-depth content for other times when i have nothing really to do. So in other words, have more than just pve content like pvp, good crafting, mini games, side quests, stuff that doesnt effect level but just add more to do. Cause if i have to grind out pve quests all the time then it would get boring, and if i have to rely on a group to lvl, then it wouldnt ever hold me in.
There is the obvious casual crowd, and they are the larger market. Obviously it will be aimed at them because these guys aren't just a group of developers making their dream game; they are milking this series for everything it's got. 14 Final Fantasies later, you want to keep making money so that execs can buy nice houses, etc.
Of course the minority on THIS site wants it to be casual based, considering that most casual MMO players just go to non-MMO specific sites for their MMO news. In my opinion, it will be the same as WoW: As casual or uncasual as you want it to be. If you want a casual experience, then you can do that. If you don't want the casual experience, then they probably will have options for you too. I used to play on the same server as the guy who is right now ranked #1 2v2 team arena in the world, and I can tell you that he doesn't take it casually.
ppfft mutants ... what about FFXI ... how can Quadav's not always drop the shells? ... can't get about 80 scales off nidhogg? ... Why do leeches have a Carbuncle Ruby? ... How come you can get 2 hides off a ram but 3 off a sheep?
Maybe you busted up the quadav shell when you were in the process of whopin its arse.
Maybe the scale you need from nidhogg is main scales and it only has one. like in the middle of the forehead. (I actually forgot what it was used for so cant make a better example....)
Maybe leaches feed off of Carbuncle blood and it hardens and after a while turns to a ruby. (somewhat along the lines of how pearls are made.
Maybe the ram has mange which renders the other hide garbage while sheep dont.
Or maybe its to not flood the economy with "stuff" which would make it all junk anyways. Just think if everytime you killed something you got everything you could. Now multiply that by how many people who ever played the MMO and who would ever kill what you killed and how many times they killed it. Its a stagering number. Everyone would be mass dropping everything and drops would still be worthless.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
ppfft mutants ... what about FFXI ... how can Quadav's not always drop the shells? ... can't get about 80 scales off nidhogg? ... Why do leeches have a Carbuncle Ruby? ... How come you can get 2 hides off a ram but 3 off a sheep?
Maybe you busted up the quadav shell when you were in the process of whopin its arse.
Maybe the scale you need from nidhogg is main scales and it only has one. like in the middle of the forehead. (I actually forgot what it was used for so cant make a better example....)
Maybe leaches feed off of Carbuncle blood and it hardens and after a while turns to a ruby. (somewhat along the lines of how pearls are made.
Maybe the ram has mange which renders the other hide garbage while sheep dont.
Or maybe its to not flood the economy with "stuff" which would make it all junk anyways. Just think if everytime you killed something you got everything you could. Now multiply that by how many people who ever played the MMO and who would ever kill what you killed and how many times they killed it. Its a stagering number. Everyone would be mass dropping everything and drops would still be worthless.
Make it so you get the One Good loot item then lots and lots of "Fluff" items.
You could turn them in for say a small amount of gold, Turn them in In mass to make Town wide Buffs. Make some Quests only start after so many of a item has been gatherd. If a Item hasent been gatherd for a long time make the NPC guards put out a call for it. ect ect.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
My answer would be yes, but no at the same time. i want it to be casual enough for when i dont have much time, but still have the in-depth content for other times when i have nothing really to do. So in other words, have more than just pve content like pvp, good crafting, mini games, side quests, stuff that doesnt effect level but just add more to do. Cause if i have to grind out pve quests all the time then it would get boring, and if i have to rely on a group to lvl, then it wouldnt ever hold me in.
That's the balance I'm hoping for as well overall.
Have content that can be done in short periods of time, allowing a player to make progress in some way; but have other more involved content for when they have more time.
And, I do still believe that major story-arc type content (missions, etc) should be more group-focused; same goes for major bosses or other more difficult content.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
if i have to rely on a group to lvl, then it wouldnt ever hold me in.
They might make it like this, just casual this time, and minor soloability on top of it. Why is it so bad (MMO's should be about interacting in the first place)?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Final Fantasy XI is currently the only MMO that I can think of that doesn't fall under the MMO subgenre of "WoW Clone." While FF XI has become fairly dated I would still like to see a similar gameplay style. I would be incredibly disappointed if FF XIV turns out to be just another WoW clone in the vast sea of WoW clone MMO's that are releasing.
While WoW isn't a horrible game, it's just not enough to satisfy me. FF XI's gameplay, while it can be repetitive and grindy while leveling, had some of the most depth and challenge to it of any MMO I have played. The combination of player skill, teamwork and strategy was essential in any meaningful fight. More often than not it seemed like a pain in the ass when you were fighting through it or trying to get your group together, but when you accomplished something you actually felt like you accomplished something.
Perhaps it's because I used to be a FF fanboi (pre Enix buyout) or maybe because FF XI was my first real MMORPG it will always be the measurement that I hold other MMO's too. Heres to hoping that FF XIV will follow in the footsteps of FF XI and not WoW.
Well, while FFXI ain't the subgenre of "WoW clone", it's a subgenre of "Everquest clone". What you say is true though, I haven't heard of any announcements about another EQ clone coming out, so SE has a nice niche to fill right now with XIV.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I don't agree that it's an "Everquset clone" I've played through a bit of EQ 2 and in my opinion EQ is more similar to WoW than it is to FF XI. Again, just my opinion, but I think FF XI is one of the only unique MMO's out today that can't be considered a clone of something that came before it.
Well, that's what the main dev of FFXI said when the game came out loong time ago (2001?).. that they took the general concept from EQ and continued from there. I agree that it has a lot of originality that doesn't make it a copy of anything though.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It was from a gaming magazine in my country, don't know where they got their info but it was an interview of some kind, maybe translated from japanese.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Or maybe its to not flood the economy with "stuff" which would make it all junk anyways. Just think if everytime you killed something you got everything you could. Now multiply that by how many people who ever played the MMO and who would ever kill what you killed and how many times they killed it. Its a stagering number. Everyone would be mass dropping everything and drops would still be worthless.
What a wonderful post Darxio! It brought a tear to my eye What memories it brought back.
I had a RDM too and I've never found another character more challenging, fun, rewarding and satisfying. I remember some people saying that RDM was boring and I never understood how. I was always busy keeping up refresh, healing, debuffing the mobs in parties (RDM/WHM/BLM) and on my server a RDM had very little time spent looking for a group. There were times I'd have to go ANON just to get things done.
AF hat. . . parties in the Dunes, Maat. . . I remember RDM/NIN with a Kraken Club!!! My god what fun that was. A friend sent me a dozen roses the day I hit 50, and I do believe I shed a tear when I hit 75, the accomplishments were that HUGE. You looked at lvl 75 players in awe, eagerly anticipating being there yourself but enjoying the journey. "Forced" (funny I never saw it as forced, its just the way it was) grouping was foremost in making the community what it was and I've seen no other community like it since.
Sure I hope they do some things different, as much as I loved it there was room for improvement. In reality, while yes I would like FFXIV to be a tad more friendly to a gamer who has less time now than 3-4 years ago the truth is even if it's not, I'll still make sure I find the time to play. I want FFXIV to be what its going to be, I'm sure I'll adjust
Originally posted by Inaya What a wonderful post Darxio! It brought a tear to my eye What memories it brought back. I had a RDM too and I've never found another character more challenging, fun, rewarding and satisfying. I remember some people saying that RDM was boring and I never understood how. I was always busy keeping up refresh, healing, debuffing the mobs in parties (RDM/WHM/BLM) and on my server a RDM had very little time spent looking for a group. There were times I'd have to go ANON just to get things done. AF hat. . . parties in the Dunes, Maat. . . I remember RDM/NIN with a Kraken Club!!! My god what fun that was. A friend sent me a dozen roses the day I hit 50, and I do believe I shed a tear when I hit 75, the accomplishments were that HUGE. You looked at lvl 75 players in awe, eagerly anticipating being there yourself but enjoying the journey. "Forced" (funny I never saw it as forced, its just the way it was) grouping was foremost in making the community what it was and I've seen no other community like it since.
Sure I hope they do some things different, as much as I loved it there was room for improvement. In reality, while yes I would like FFXIV to be a tad more friendly to a gamer who has less time now than 3-4 years ago the truth is even if it's not, I'll still make sure I find the time to play. I want FFXIV to be what its going to be, I'm sure I'll adjust
I always find that ex-FFXI players that maxed characters are some of the most well spoken and intelligent individuals you will ever meet. There was just something about that game that attracted them and discouraged "the other" like shark repellent.
The way his post made you feel, yours just gave me the same tingle. I really miss the FFXI community and it's adults.
I really hope they don't screw this game up and pull those undesirables in.
I'm curious what is meant by WoW Clone? The mechanics being alike? The game play being similar? The leveling system is close? The grind? Or is it a combinantion of multiple things that makes it a clone.
SE may have based FFXI off of EQ but they made a different game, with some similarities.
Just because a game has hot bars and mini maps and stuff doesn't make me think WoW clone personally. I know people say LOTRO is a WoW Clone but I didn't think that at all. Yes it has mechanics like WoW but they immerse you in story much better and offer more things to the gamers like player housing. It just felt like a much more "mature" game than WoW does even if it plays similar.
I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here about the WoW Clone thing, I'm just curious what most people mean by it.
If SE based some of FFXI of EQ, as was stated by a previous poster, and made a game that was still different enough perhaps they can repeat that with WoW...or I may be too optimistic :P
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR Looking Forward to: Wildstar
Everyone's 15 bucks a month is equal in the eyes of the corporation. You may think your 15 bucks is better than the next guy's... but it's not, and big companies like to get as much money as possible by appealing to the most people as possible with their product.
They also like to get us to play for as long as possible- through interesting grinds. Part of the reason why FFXI's playerbase is still what it was years ago is because SE can achieve the balance.
I think that XI is doing it right right now anyway. Lots of stuff that takes 30mins to clear. Lots of stuff that takes hour or more to clear. The line of casual and hardcore isn't as clear as it could be.. they mix together. The whole system of the game just doesn't really work with this kind of gameplay, so XIV should be more tailored towards this type of gameplay.
The very definition of "grind" in a game is not interesting in the least. You are also defending a false premise that "grinding" or "raiding" is the only viable method of player retention.
I think games should depend on replayability rather than some arbitray long grind to max level. If you have fun, solid replayable content, people will continue to play because it's fun. Until MUD's and MMOs hit the scene, no one had ever heard of gridning in a game, that word was reserved for the grind at your job. Why is this paradigm acceptable? Developers use it because it's the easiest method to force achievers to keep playing with the very least amount of effort for the programmer. Might be great for those hardcore achievers and the lazy programmers, but why the hell do the rest of us tolerate such crappy craftsmanship?
After all of these years with having to put up with such twisted game design, it's no wonder people are starting to demand something different, something that's first purpose is to entertain and not just something to support a business model. For most players, a game's life span is dependent on it's entertainment value, not on some abitrary grind mechanics.
I truly believe that the phenomena of altitis is indicative of people's dissatisfaction with current high end game mechanics. Burnout and mind numbing raids are symptoms of a game putting business concerns before entertainment. Pretty darn sad when entertainment is what they're peddling.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Everyone's 15 bucks a month is equal in the eyes of the corporation. You may think your 15 bucks is better than the next guy's... but it's not, and big companies like to get as much money as possible by appealing to the most people as possible with their product.
They also like to get us to play for as long as possible- through interesting grinds. Part of the reason why FFXI's playerbase is still what it was years ago is because SE can achieve the balance.
I think that XI is doing it right right now anyway. Lots of stuff that takes 30mins to clear. Lots of stuff that takes hour or more to clear. The line of casual and hardcore isn't as clear as it could be.. they mix together. The whole system of the game just doesn't really work with this kind of gameplay, so XIV should be more tailored towards this type of gameplay.
The very definition of "grind" in a game is not interesting in the least. You are also defending a false premise that "grinding" or "raiding" is the only viable method of player retention.
I think games should depend on replayability rather than some arbitray long grind to max level. If you have fun, solid replayable content, people will continue to play because it's fun. Until MUD's and MMOs hit the scene, no one had ever heard of gridning in a game, that word was reserved for the grind at your job. Why is this paradigm acceptable? Developers use it because it's the easiest method to force achievers to keep playing with the very least amount of effort for the programmer. Might be great for those hardcore achievers and the lazy programmers, but why the hell do the rest of us tolerate such crappy craftsmanship?
After all of these years with having to put up with such twisted game design, it's no wonder people are starting to demand something different, something that's first purpose is to entertain and not just something to support a business model. For most players, a game's life span is dependent on it's entertainment value, not on some abitrary grind mechanics.
I truly believe that the phenomena of altitis is indicative of people's dissatisfaction with current high end game mechanics. Burnout and mind numbing raids are symptoms of a game putting business concerns before entertainment. Pretty darn sad when entertainment is what they're peddling.
"Grind" existed in older games as well but people considered building their character fun then. In Final Fantasy for the NES I remember killing many low level monsters for periods of time to build up levels to face the next boss. It wasn't called a grind then and it was also not looked upon as a negative feature. I have always though of killing monsters to build levels part of my character building up his experience and strength. He is becoming more and more of a skilled fighter, he gains more levels etc. etc.
I personally enjoy making my own adventures rather than questing. I would prefer to go where I want and kill what I want to level. Do I really need some NPC telling me to kill 10 wolves? I would prefer to leave out the trivial quest such as that and kill what I want to build up enough strength to take on maybe fewer big important quest. MMORPGs are different than the single player games that you are thinking of. They are short lived because they are not meant to be a world you live in. Why does a short journey to some seem more appealing than a longer journey? If there was plenty of content (bosses, dungeons etc) along the way and there was plenty of world to explore. Why would finishing the game you pay monthly for be more appealing than having a long fun game to play?
Why ask for quick leveling and fun end game content when you could be asking for a fun long journey with content all the way. Forget "end game", give us a continous long journey. Make it long, make it fun, and when in a 6 months to a years time people start to get near the "finish line" of that journey add an expansion pack with more content. In Lord of the Rings did the whole focus stay on the last big fight for the majority of the movies or was it the journey? It was the journey. The journey was a long full of content adventure just as these MMOs should be.
Also it is very ironic how many people complain if the journey in the game appears to long even if there is plenty of content to do when if the way to the top is fast and quick they get there and then complain for more content. : )
I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here about the WoW Clone thing, I'm just curious what most people mean by it.
What I mean by it is a game that looks, feels and plays like WoW. The interface is the same, the game mechanics are the same or very similar and the gameplay gives you flashbacks of your lvl 70 rogue...
Companies look at whats successful and try to emulate that. Right now, and for quite a while, WoW has been the king of the hill that has been the basis for many other MMO's that are out, or are coming out.
It's like McDonalds and Burger King (sry I'm hungry...) One of them had to have been first, the other saw how profitable the fast food buisness was and decided to copy what the other was doing while putting it's own spin on it. Regardless of whether its a big mac or a whopper tho, it's still the same fast food burger no matter how you break it down. FF XI said, "Were gunna do the fast food biz too, but were not gunna be a burger, where gunna be Taco Bell!" (sorry... really really hungry and getting a lil carried away)
I just hope they make the game controls better. There's just something missing in FFXI. I don't feel like I am in complete control of my character. It feels like a late response. I press forward, and it takes that split second for my character to respond. I don't like that. I also hope they make the PC User Interface and Camera options MUCH BETTER. Sorry for the lame comparison, but for PC, I'd like the Camera to be like in WoW, or in WAR, where you can turn the camera 180° in a split second, whereas the camera in FFXI takes freakin' ages to turn, it's like Keyboard Turning in WoW...
Last but not least, I hope they make the whole layout much less complicated, and be able to bind keys like the Map to a button on a keyboard. I'm tired of going through a menu to check out my map.
You guys do realize that this game will be developped around the Japanese culture, just like FFXI. SE is a Japanese company and so they will do what they want. American companies tend to make games more casual and easilly rewarding.
I wish they would implement the casual aspects that WoW has, but also keep the hardcore aspects that WoW has.
WoW has no more hardcore aspects. Ever since Blizzard changed their head developper, they reeled in all casuals and turned it into a casual fk fest. I know because I used to be a hardcore WoW gamer and I left because it became too casual. Many hardcore top guilds quit because of that. They went money crazy so they dubbed it wayyyy down.
Well, that's what the main dev of FFXI said when the game came out loong time ago (2001?).. that they took the general concept from EQ and continued from there. I agree that it has a lot of originality that doesn't make it a copy of anything though.
What are you smoking? SE never took the original concept of EQ, they made their own concept. You can't compare FFXI's design to other MMOs. It is on a completely different scale.
Well, that's what the main dev of FFXI said when the game came out loong time ago (2001?).. that they took the general concept from EQ and continued from there. I agree that it has a lot of originality that doesn't make it a copy of anything though.
What are you smoking? SE never took the original concept of EQ, they made their own concept. You can't compare FFXI's design to other MMOs. It is on a completely different scale.
What Hyanmen said is true they did look at EQ and built on it.
Wow this topic is still going strong. I think that alot of the mixed feelings about the game becoming more casual come from what kind of player we are. Alot of people here have taken the Bartle Test. To me it stands to reason that the Socializers and Explorers would like an easier time of it. But the achievers are worried that their achievements will be diminished. Killers well. they can probably go either way with it I am thinking but probably tend towards the easier situation as well, as long as they dont have to fight to many noobs late in the game.
Comments
My answer would be yes, but no at the same time. i want it to be casual enough for when i dont have much time, but still have the in-depth content for other times when i have nothing really to do. So in other words, have more than just pve content like pvp, good crafting, mini games, side quests, stuff that doesnt effect level but just add more to do. Cause if i have to grind out pve quests all the time then it would get boring, and if i have to rely on a group to lvl, then it wouldnt ever hold me in.
There is the obvious casual crowd, and they are the larger market. Obviously it will be aimed at them because these guys aren't just a group of developers making their dream game; they are milking this series for everything it's got. 14 Final Fantasies later, you want to keep making money so that execs can buy nice houses, etc.
Of course the minority on THIS site wants it to be casual based, considering that most casual MMO players just go to non-MMO specific sites for their MMO news. In my opinion, it will be the same as WoW: As casual or uncasual as you want it to be. If you want a casual experience, then you can do that. If you don't want the casual experience, then they probably will have options for you too. I used to play on the same server as the guy who is right now ranked #1 2v2 team arena in the world, and I can tell you that he doesn't take it casually.
Maybe you busted up the quadav shell when you were in the process of whopin its arse.
Maybe the scale you need from nidhogg is main scales and it only has one. like in the middle of the forehead. (I actually forgot what it was used for so cant make a better example....)
Maybe leaches feed off of Carbuncle blood and it hardens and after a while turns to a ruby. (somewhat along the lines of how pearls are made.
Maybe the ram has mange which renders the other hide garbage while sheep dont.
Or maybe its to not flood the economy with "stuff" which would make it all junk anyways. Just think if everytime you killed something you got everything you could. Now multiply that by how many people who ever played the MMO and who would ever kill what you killed and how many times they killed it. Its a stagering number. Everyone would be mass dropping everything and drops would still be worthless.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Maybe you busted up the quadav shell when you were in the process of whopin its arse.
Maybe the scale you need from nidhogg is main scales and it only has one. like in the middle of the forehead. (I actually forgot what it was used for so cant make a better example....)
Maybe leaches feed off of Carbuncle blood and it hardens and after a while turns to a ruby. (somewhat along the lines of how pearls are made.
Maybe the ram has mange which renders the other hide garbage while sheep dont.
Or maybe its to not flood the economy with "stuff" which would make it all junk anyways. Just think if everytime you killed something you got everything you could. Now multiply that by how many people who ever played the MMO and who would ever kill what you killed and how many times they killed it. Its a stagering number. Everyone would be mass dropping everything and drops would still be worthless.
Make it so you get the One Good loot item then lots and lots of "Fluff" items.
You could turn them in for say a small amount of gold, Turn them in In mass to make Town wide Buffs. Make some Quests only start after so many of a item has been gatherd. If a Item hasent been gatherd for a long time make the NPC guards put out a call for it. ect ect.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
That's the balance I'm hoping for as well overall.
Have content that can be done in short periods of time, allowing a player to make progress in some way; but have other more involved content for when they have more time.
And, I do still believe that major story-arc type content (missions, etc) should be more group-focused; same goes for major bosses or other more difficult content.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
They might make it like this, just casual this time, and minor soloability on top of it. Why is it so bad (MMO's should be about interacting in the first place)?
Final Fantasy XI is currently the only MMO that I can think of that doesn't fall under the MMO subgenre of "WoW Clone." While FF XI has become fairly dated I would still like to see a similar gameplay style. I would be incredibly disappointed if FF XIV turns out to be just another WoW clone in the vast sea of WoW clone MMO's that are releasing.
While WoW isn't a horrible game, it's just not enough to satisfy me. FF XI's gameplay, while it can be repetitive and grindy while leveling, had some of the most depth and challenge to it of any MMO I have played. The combination of player skill, teamwork and strategy was essential in any meaningful fight. More often than not it seemed like a pain in the ass when you were fighting through it or trying to get your group together, but when you accomplished something you actually felt like you accomplished something.
Perhaps it's because I used to be a FF fanboi (pre Enix buyout) or maybe because FF XI was my first real MMORPG it will always be the measurement that I hold other MMO's too. Heres to hoping that FF XIV will follow in the footsteps of FF XI and not WoW.
Well, while FFXI ain't the subgenre of "WoW clone", it's a subgenre of "Everquest clone". What you say is true though, I haven't heard of any announcements about another EQ clone coming out, so SE has a nice niche to fill right now with XIV.
I don't agree that it's an "Everquset clone" I've played through a bit of EQ 2 and in my opinion EQ is more similar to WoW than it is to FF XI. Again, just my opinion, but I think FF XI is one of the only unique MMO's out today that can't be considered a clone of something that came before it.
Well, that's what the main dev of FFXI said when the game came out loong time ago (2001?).. that they took the general concept from EQ and continued from there. I agree that it has a lot of originality that doesn't make it a copy of anything though.
I don't remember reading that but I didn't follow MMO's back then like I do now.
It was from a gaming magazine in my country, don't know where they got their info but it was an interview of some kind, maybe translated from japanese.
NO SHIT! YOU THINK!
What a wonderful post Darxio! It brought a tear to my eye
What memories it brought back.
I had a RDM too and I've never found another character more challenging, fun, rewarding and satisfying. I remember some people saying that RDM was boring and I never understood how. I was always busy keeping up refresh, healing, debuffing the mobs in parties (RDM/WHM/BLM) and on my server a RDM had very little time spent looking for a group. There were times I'd have to go ANON just to get things done.
AF hat. . . parties in the Dunes, Maat. . . I remember RDM/NIN with a Kraken Club!!! My god what fun that was. A friend sent me a dozen roses the day I hit 50, and I do believe I shed a tear when I hit 75, the accomplishments were that HUGE. You looked at lvl 75 players in awe, eagerly anticipating being there yourself but enjoying the journey. "Forced" (funny I never saw it as forced, its just the way it was) grouping was foremost in making the community what it was and I've seen no other community like it since.
Sure I hope they do some things different, as much as I loved it there was room for improvement. In reality, while yes I would like FFXIV to be a tad more friendly to a gamer who has less time now than 3-4 years ago the truth is even if it's not, I'll still make sure I find the time to play. I want FFXIV to be what its going to be, I'm sure I'll adjust
I always find that ex-FFXI players that maxed characters are some of the most well spoken and intelligent individuals you will ever meet. There was just something about that game that attracted them and discouraged "the other" like shark repellent.
The way his post made you feel, yours just gave me the same tingle.
I really hope they don't screw this game up and pull those undesirables in.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I'm curious what is meant by WoW Clone? The mechanics being alike? The game play being similar? The leveling system is close? The grind? Or is it a combinantion of multiple things that makes it a clone.
SE may have based FFXI off of EQ but they made a different game, with some similarities.
Just because a game has hot bars and mini maps and stuff doesn't make me think WoW clone personally. I know people say LOTRO is a WoW Clone but I didn't think that at all. Yes it has mechanics like WoW but they immerse you in story much better and offer more things to the gamers like player housing. It just felt like a much more "mature" game than WoW does even if it plays similar.
I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here about the WoW Clone thing, I'm just curious what most people mean by it.
If SE based some of FFXI of EQ, as was stated by a previous poster, and made a game that was still different enough perhaps they can repeat that with WoW...or I may be too optimistic :P
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
They also like to get us to play for as long as possible- through interesting grinds. Part of the reason why FFXI's playerbase is still what it was years ago is because SE can achieve the balance.
I think that XI is doing it right right now anyway. Lots of stuff that takes 30mins to clear. Lots of stuff that takes hour or more to clear. The line of casual and hardcore isn't as clear as it could be.. they mix together. The whole system of the game just doesn't really work with this kind of gameplay, so XIV should be more tailored towards this type of gameplay.
The very definition of "grind" in a game is not interesting in the least. You are also defending a false premise that "grinding" or "raiding" is the only viable method of player retention.
I think games should depend on replayability rather than some arbitray long grind to max level. If you have fun, solid replayable content, people will continue to play because it's fun. Until MUD's and MMOs hit the scene, no one had ever heard of gridning in a game, that word was reserved for the grind at your job. Why is this paradigm acceptable? Developers use it because it's the easiest method to force achievers to keep playing with the very least amount of effort for the programmer. Might be great for those hardcore achievers and the lazy programmers, but why the hell do the rest of us tolerate such crappy craftsmanship?
After all of these years with having to put up with such twisted game design, it's no wonder people are starting to demand something different, something that's first purpose is to entertain and not just something to support a business model. For most players, a game's life span is dependent on it's entertainment value, not on some abitrary grind mechanics.
I truly believe that the phenomena of altitis is indicative of people's dissatisfaction with current high end game mechanics. Burnout and mind numbing raids are symptoms of a game putting business concerns before entertainment. Pretty darn sad when entertainment is what they're peddling.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
They also like to get us to play for as long as possible- through interesting grinds. Part of the reason why FFXI's playerbase is still what it was years ago is because SE can achieve the balance.
I think that XI is doing it right right now anyway. Lots of stuff that takes 30mins to clear. Lots of stuff that takes hour or more to clear. The line of casual and hardcore isn't as clear as it could be.. they mix together. The whole system of the game just doesn't really work with this kind of gameplay, so XIV should be more tailored towards this type of gameplay.
The very definition of "grind" in a game is not interesting in the least. You are also defending a false premise that "grinding" or "raiding" is the only viable method of player retention.
I think games should depend on replayability rather than some arbitray long grind to max level. If you have fun, solid replayable content, people will continue to play because it's fun. Until MUD's and MMOs hit the scene, no one had ever heard of gridning in a game, that word was reserved for the grind at your job. Why is this paradigm acceptable? Developers use it because it's the easiest method to force achievers to keep playing with the very least amount of effort for the programmer. Might be great for those hardcore achievers and the lazy programmers, but why the hell do the rest of us tolerate such crappy craftsmanship?
After all of these years with having to put up with such twisted game design, it's no wonder people are starting to demand something different, something that's first purpose is to entertain and not just something to support a business model. For most players, a game's life span is dependent on it's entertainment value, not on some abitrary grind mechanics.
I truly believe that the phenomena of altitis is indicative of people's dissatisfaction with current high end game mechanics. Burnout and mind numbing raids are symptoms of a game putting business concerns before entertainment. Pretty darn sad when entertainment is what they're peddling.
"Grind" existed in older games as well but people considered building their character fun then. In Final Fantasy for the NES I remember killing many low level monsters for periods of time to build up levels to face the next boss. It wasn't called a grind then and it was also not looked upon as a negative feature. I have always though of killing monsters to build levels part of my character building up his experience and strength. He is becoming more and more of a skilled fighter, he gains more levels etc. etc.
I personally enjoy making my own adventures rather than questing. I would prefer to go where I want and kill what I want to level. Do I really need some NPC telling me to kill 10 wolves? I would prefer to leave out the trivial quest such as that and kill what I want to build up enough strength to take on maybe fewer big important quest. MMORPGs are different than the single player games that you are thinking of. They are short lived because they are not meant to be a world you live in. Why does a short journey to some seem more appealing than a longer journey? If there was plenty of content (bosses, dungeons etc) along the way and there was plenty of world to explore. Why would finishing the game you pay monthly for be more appealing than having a long fun game to play?
Why ask for quick leveling and fun end game content when you could be asking for a fun long journey with content all the way. Forget "end game", give us a continous long journey. Make it long, make it fun, and when in a 6 months to a years time people start to get near the "finish line" of that journey add an expansion pack with more content. In Lord of the Rings did the whole focus stay on the last big fight for the majority of the movies or was it the journey? It was the journey. The journey was a long full of content adventure just as these MMOs should be.
Also it is very ironic how many people complain if the journey in the game appears to long even if there is plenty of content to do when if the way to the top is fast and quick they get there and then complain for more content. : )
What I mean by it is a game that looks, feels and plays like WoW. The interface is the same, the game mechanics are the same or very similar and the gameplay gives you flashbacks of your lvl 70 rogue...
Companies look at whats successful and try to emulate that. Right now, and for quite a while, WoW has been the king of the hill that has been the basis for many other MMO's that are out, or are coming out.
It's like McDonalds and Burger King (sry I'm hungry...) One of them had to have been first, the other saw how profitable the fast food buisness was and decided to copy what the other was doing while putting it's own spin on it. Regardless of whether its a big mac or a whopper tho, it's still the same fast food burger no matter how you break it down. FF XI said, "Were gunna do the fast food biz too, but were not gunna be a burger, where gunna be Taco Bell!" (sorry... really really hungry and getting a lil carried away)
I just hope they make the game controls better. There's just something missing in FFXI. I don't feel like I am in complete control of my character. It feels like a late response. I press forward, and it takes that split second for my character to respond. I don't like that. I also hope they make the PC User Interface and Camera options MUCH BETTER. Sorry for the lame comparison, but for PC, I'd like the Camera to be like in WoW, or in WAR, where you can turn the camera 180° in a split second, whereas the camera in FFXI takes freakin' ages to turn, it's like Keyboard Turning in WoW...
Last but not least, I hope they make the whole layout much less complicated, and be able to bind keys like the Map to a button on a keyboard. I'm tired of going through a menu to check out my map.
You guys do realize that this game will be developped around the Japanese culture, just like FFXI. SE is a Japanese company and so they will do what they want. American companies tend to make games more casual and easilly rewarding.
WoW has no more hardcore aspects. Ever since Blizzard changed their head developper, they reeled in all casuals and turned it into a casual fk fest. I know because I used to be a hardcore WoW gamer and I left because it became too casual. Many hardcore top guilds quit because of that. They went money crazy so they dubbed it wayyyy down.
What are you smoking? SE never took the original concept of EQ, they made their own concept. You can't compare FFXI's design to other MMOs. It is on a completely different scale.
What are you smoking? SE never took the original concept of EQ, they made their own concept. You can't compare FFXI's design to other MMOs. It is on a completely different scale.
What Hyanmen said is true they did look at EQ and built on it.
Wow this topic is still going strong. I think that alot of the mixed feelings about the game becoming more casual come from what kind of player we are. Alot of people here have taken the Bartle Test. To me it stands to reason that the Socializers and Explorers would like an easier time of it. But the achievers are worried that their achievements will be diminished. Killers well. they can probably go either way with it I am thinking but probably tend towards the easier situation as well, as long as they dont have to fight to many noobs late in the game.
What do you think?