To this day no game has surpassed UO in terms of fun for me. No game has even come close, really.
I would love to see someone take the T2A UO and put it into a modern 3D engine. I think it would be great.
But.... It's been almost 13 years since this genre started and there really have not been any big improvements in game design.
Personally I would love to see something bigger than UO. I want a fantastical virtual world. I want a place to go to live another life, a life of a mage, or warrior, or an inn keeper if you choose. A world as mirrored to an actual living breathing place as technology will allow.
I want a game that changes and adapts to it's players where there are realistic consequences for your actions and meaningful rewards for heroic deeds.
A world like the one found in 1/2 Prince or .Hack.
Do I ever thing this will happen? Absolutely not.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Wouldn't this appear to be narrowminded thinking in itself on a concept based on an open mindset? I'm coming to think more and more "sandboxes" released are going to carry elements from the theme park mindset that do seem appealing and why not? There are good things that can carry over and as Eric has indirectly pointed out, MMORPG's regardless of theme-park or sandbox carry universal similarities within the MMORPG realm. Why can't a game without levels and open-ended skillset have an "end game" (perhaps you need to have so much combat skills and mining skills to mine incredibly hard to acquire ore in dangerous territory) or quest lines to follow that may not reward EXP but there's plenty of other things that can be used as reward (money is great last time I checked). These are just things I'm throwing out there, but would love to see the reactions to some of these questions.
I'd argue a 'sandbox' is more defined by what it does not limit than what it does, and some of those limits are more implicit in the 'game culture' than explicit in the skills sets and 'Terms and Conditions'.
The concept of 'end game' is a tricky one though - for some players, an mmorpg is (admittedly in a pretty limited way) an alternate 'life', and opinions vary greatly if either the 'artificial' or 'real' life should have a neatly defined 'end game'.
Problems come in with, to use your example, areas where you need high skills to go somewhere, or high mining skills for a particular ore. In the real world, people go to extremely dangerous places out of a sense of adventure and exploration, or to be known as the explorer/discoverer of something, or for profit from what they think is there - the latter is especially true for the 'rare mineral extraction'. But those are not ends in themselves, they translate into the joy of the experience, fame for the achievement, fortune from the profits - but they are not the end of the 'game'.
By advertising certain areas as the 'most difficult, greatest reward sources' there is an automatic implied challenge in there - and given much of the audience is competetive-minded gamers, it's bound to appeal - that this is where the 'best' players are to be found, and thus qualifying to be there and thrive becomes an aim in and of itself. But life really isn't like that.... or rather, it is for a small minority, most of us are not slogging out our lives desperately trying to get a particular house, car and lifestyle in the hope of looking impressive to the rest of the world. Many do it happily, in some cases almost obsessively, in a game setting, but simply because the objective is there and presented as a nice shiny medal to wear, and conveys a sense of importance or achievement, it skews the structure of the game world. The 'game objective' takes control more and more insidiously until to many it becomes the entire point - but in that, you lose the sandbox elements of freedom of approach, style and action that you can get by just setting up the core, very minimal, rules and leaving people to get on with 'living' in that world.
Sandboxes don't have 'winners' in the usual gaming sense, although they can have 'winners' in the sense that people regard their achievements in life as 'winning' - but that concept is not one that sells easily to sales and marketing people.
Each style of games tries to appeal to a different style of player, but at present, the most money is with the competitive, and thus widely copied, level/quest/item scripted model. The market for a real freestyle game is there, but much smaller - probably still enough to make a pretty reasonable living, but 'reasonable' profit doesn't appeal much to the corporate world.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Originally posted by Ozmodan Originally posted by eric_w66 As usual, Dana Massey is wrong on so many things that I wonder if he also believes that the Obama healthcare plan is going to be a glowing success story. He keeps confusing "freedom" with "lack of direction". Just because UO lacked any "end game" content and players had to resort to PKing to do something new doesn't mean it's the holy grail of gaming. And he paints with far too wide a brush the point about levels mattering in EQ1 to mean that every game with levels has to use exponential power curves. I've played plenty of MUD's that didn't. And they weren't "sandbox"... They were far more like EQ1 than UO. And his point about a writer in UO actually being a WRITER in real life... well hell, take out the "RPG" bit from the name why don't ya. Perhaps SOME PEOPLE might want to PLAY a ROLE where they have skills in GAME where they don't in REAL LIFE (you know, writing... poetry... picking berries.... SWORDPLAY....MAGIC USING...)... And most of his points are already done in the level based games anyways. Berry picking? WoW has that. Fishing? Got that too. And heck, you can't even (legally) MACRO those abilities like everyone did in UO...
Here you go again. You try to say the article writer is so wrong, yet you completely forget to provide any reasons why he is wrong. I have to give your post the most nonsensical one of the day. I don't even know why anyone bothers to read your posts, they never make any sense.
Problem with all these developers out there, they are afraid players can't handle a non grind game. The genre has so conditioned players to expect such. The Darkfall kids make me laugh, they think Darkfall is a sandbox game when it is strictly a pvp game with the elements needed to make it a true sandbox mostly missing. I would not hold your breath waiting for Aventurine to add them either.
And since he (eric) went there, I'll follow up using your quote that he exhibits the typical qualities of the Bush era administration of shaking your finger and proclaiming to the world someone is wrong but not having any idea why.
I just wanted to note that this made me smile. I just cannot stand people like Eric.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
This is a wonderful article on what a sandbox MMO is or might be - but it doesn't answer the question of its title:
Why not... build a sandbox MMO?
There are many answers to that question but here are just a few;
Because they are more expensive to design, make and manage than level-based themeparks
Because their revenues cannot be so clearly predicted as level-based themeparks
Because their dynamic depends on the participation of the user rather than the direction of the designer - and designers don't like to lose control of their game.
The best comment about sandbox mmos came in an article in the New York Times discussing the horrible fate of Star Wars Galaxies when SOE implemented the NGE:
'They took a virtual world and turned it into a virtual game'.
Originally posted by Torik That is purely based on the game and a 'sandbox' game can limit your actions just as badly as any thempark game. My primary problem with SWG was that whenever I tried to do something interesting (to me) in the game, it would throw a roadblock before me and seemed to channel me toward mission running and farming.
Interesting. I played SWG for 3 years and never, ever felt like I was being channeled toward anything. In fact, they had a few quest theme parks and the story arch quests, but other than that there wasn't much for questing out there. Yeah, we had to grind missions to skill up, but back pre-NGE you could get your character to max out your skill points in a few days of playing. Because of this people were encouraged to try all kinds of different skill tree builds until they settled on something they loved (Master Ranger/Master Riflemen was my fav hunting build). I agree there was a grind element to SWG, but it didn't last long at all compared to the current theme park games which are all about grinding out quests until you reach the end-game. Hell, only a few percentage points of WoW's population, for example, ends up doing end-game so you have to wonder why they are designed this way in the first place.
Funny enough Master Ranger/Master Rifleman was the build that appealed to me the most. Sadly the very short ranges in which you could engage mobs made it not possible to play the role of Sniper I wanted so I was forced into a more traditional role for my character.
My beef with SWG is based on two things:
-I am a big fan of meaningfull crafting. The SWG crafting system seemed like a perfect fit for me with all the customization options. I was going to start out as a weaponsmith. I gathered a stash of resources and started leveling it. I was forced to make a ton of useless junk so my skill box could fill up a bit. I probably could have handled it but the interface was so atricious that after 10 minutes of craft grinding my wrist started hurting. For my pain I got a very small increase in xp and still no abiltiy to make anything meaningfull. I finally chucked the profession and went with a combat build that while grindy would not leave me with physical damage to my body. That was such an unnecessary grind that turned me off the most promising feature of the game.
-After you skilled up your character there was not much meaningfull to do after a while. My Master Ranger/Master Rifleman got very good at hunting and harvesting biologicals but after a while I wanted something different to do. I got a house and my guild build a full player city but that was a finite experience as well. Since we could not level alts in the game, I would have had to chuck my Master Ranger/Master Rifleman to try a new set of professions and that just kills any immersion in the character. The big exciting thing to try were the themeparks. If my options are to do the same dull stuff I have been doing for months or do quest chains then I might as well go to WoW. The social interaction is great but I can do that in any MMO.
I think the problem that you faced was two-fol;
Firstly, while the crafting system was rich and complex, it took a lot of grinding. That in itself was not a bad thing but the items that it produced had no game use and couldn't be sold.
Secondly, while a rifleman/ranger sounds excellent on paper, those were two of the professions that SOE never even attempted to balance so make them combat effective in either PVP or PVE. That was just an unlucky choice on your part.
Well I know two great sandbox games weather u know they are or not Darkfall is a wonderfull game where even a level 1 can jump in the battle. Also EVE online as it is a space game it is also open and players within a week can jump right into the battle for pvp action.
Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.
the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well
They have become bigger jerks.
Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.
Now imagine that in full sandbox?
*shudder*
That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.
Simply can't be done, without some limitations on PvP. Every system I've seen that doesn't use HARD CODED(server side) limits on who can attack who, has ended up being a gankfest. Its simply the nature of the Beast. Griefers and gankers are WAY too "creative" in finding ways around any system thats not hard coded. They then eventually drive off the very type of people that a real sand box MUST have to evolve into a living breathing world.
I know that a lot of people become grumpy whenever SWG is cited but I really think that game managed to 'fix' the problem of PKing in a sandbox world. It did that with its Covert/Overt system. If you were 'Covert' - ie just being an ordinary civilian - you could not be attacked by members of the opposite faction. Only if you were 'Overt' - performing rebel or imperial duties - could you be attacked. Certain things turned you overt - liking attacking rebel/imperial nps or wearing reb/imp armor. All in all, I thought it worked.
I loved early galaxies and now playing it makes me want to vomit. I loved uo also, but it's a shell of its former self and the graphics make me want to cry... I think my disappointment with it is doubled by the fact that they've killed several potentially great sequels. I still miss the early days and crafting in SWG.
I have little hope for any other current mmo's in the upcoming market to help scratch my sandbox itch, those two were flukes and they'll never have the appeal of a mass market game like wow, so no one tries to copy them. Even RG's later games like Tabula Rasa weren't sandboxes. Sad, that man really knew how to grow em if you know what I mean.
I look forward to the day when i can play a mmo that isn't a game and is a real world... but that would require massive advanced in game ai... but I'm hopeful still. Someday.
There have been only two good sandbox mmo's imo-- UO, and swg prior to the cu/nge. I loved early galaxies and now playing it makes me want to vomit. I loved uo also, but it's a shell of its former self and the graphics make me want to cry... I think my disappointment with it is doubled by the fact that they've killed several potentially great sequels. I have little hope for any other current mmo's in the upcoming market to help scratch my sandbox itch, those two were flukes and they'll never have the appeal of a mass market game like wow, so no one tries to copy them. Even RG's later games like Tabula Rasa weren't sandboxes. Sad, that man really knew how to grow em if you know what I mean. I look forward to the day when i can play a mmo that isn't a game and is a real world... but that would require massive advanced in game ai... but I'm hopeful still. Someday.
While I'm a sandbox Fan myself I think certain players have rose colored glasses when speaking of SWG and UO.
I still think those games in thier original form were in the top 5 of my MMOs of all times but really Both Ryzom and Eve offer A good amount of freedom (nearly as much as UO/Swg) also games like AO and AC1 while hybrids give a ton of freedom to its players that themeparks of today don't give you.
So to say UO and Swg were the only sandbox games is kind of a slap in the face to every MMO that's tried to break the mold set by EQ/WoW.
Considering a good majority of the SWG players migrated to Ryzom and even after all the crap alot of them remain I think they would disagree that Swg and UO are the only good sandbox games.
There have been only two good sandbox mmo's imo-- UO, and swg prior to the cu/nge. I loved early galaxies and now playing it makes me want to vomit. I loved uo also, but it's a shell of its former self and the graphics make me want to cry... I think my disappointment with it is doubled by the fact that they've killed several potentially great sequels. I have little hope for any other current mmo's in the upcoming market to help scratch my sandbox itch, those two were flukes and they'll never have the appeal of a mass market game like wow, so no one tries to copy them. Even RG's later games like Tabula Rasa weren't sandboxes. Sad, that man really knew how to grow em if you know what I mean. I look forward to the day when i can play a mmo that isn't a game and is a real world... but that would require massive advanced in game ai... but I'm hopeful still. Someday.
While I'm a sandbox Fan myself I think certain players have rose colored glasses when speaking of SWG and UO.
I still think those games in thier original form were in the top 5 of my MMOs of all times but really Both Ryzom and Eve offer A good amount of freedom (nearly as much as UO/Swg) also games like AO and AC1 while hybrids give a ton of freedom to its players that themeparks of today don't give you.
So to say UO and Swg were the only sandbox games is kind of a slap in the face to every MMO that's tried to break the mold set by EQ/WoW.
Considering a good majority of the SWG players migrated to Ryzom and even after all the crap alot of them remain I think they would disagree that Swg and UO are the only good sandbox games.
EVE Online is certainly proof that sandbox can work, even if you don't like the gameplay and content of EVE Online.
And Ryzom, yes, the hidden gem of the mmorpg genre. It does need some attention, but thats the game I go to when I want a break from EVE Online, or when I feel like playing a character ( instead of a ship )
If you think of it, both EVE Online and Ryzom are still very true to it's original, unlike Ultima Online or SWG.
Ryzom, because there never was alot of development done and EVE, because CCP knows how to improve and expand an mmo without allianating the veterans.
The 2 games I like the most DAoC and SWG have both been completely mutilated by the devs, one slowly and unknowingly, the other quick and hard, but the end result is the same, you hardly recognize the game and the vision has completely changed.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Originally posted by Rizbin Still though, how will the dreaded (sic) cookie cutter be stopped? (sic) Once people have a perception of what is best ( whether its true or not) for a given situation, then it dosn't differ from a class system...everyone is the same anyway.
Ooo! Ooo! Can I answer this one? (And no apologies even if it has been responded two a half dozen times or more.)
In a 'sandbox' there is no best for very long. Someone usually comes up with a counter strategy pretty fast. If there is, it's probably a broken mechanic and gets fixed or nerfed as soon as the designers can figure out how best to balance. (I don't need to mention any recent 'balances' to EvE players, they know what I'm talking about.)
This is probably the article I've most enjoyed by Dana and I think I'm on the same wavelength.
One mechanic for granting experience in old tabletop RPGs, aside from killin' stuff, completing quests and the often arbitrary 'roleplay' bonus, was the contribution bonus. Amber Diceless RPG was famous for this in our group. Players who actually contributed content in terms of art, or NPCs or new stories/locations got a hefty experience bonus compared to players who more passively just consumed content. Dana's description of a hypothetical 'author' class and my own recent experiences with Architect (and Storyteller) remind me that this system was powerfully effective. On one level, yup, it's a purely OOC reward for an OOC action, creating content, but I remember the binders and postertubes overflowing with content our tabletop GM had at his beck and call. He didn't have to do much more than manage, and edit/balance, the stuff coming his way and weave in the occasional surprise or backfire. The players made their own world, and their own fun, and then some.
Why couldn't this kind of thing work in the universe of modders and hackers and scenario designers we have all over the internet? The main human investment a company would need to make would be folks who'd oversee and rate content/continuity so casual players looking for a more integrated, quality controlled, experience could find it in the middle of all the other stuff going on.
This is probably the article I've most enjoyed by Dana and I think I'm on the same wavelength. One mechanic for granting experience in old tabletop RPGs, aside from killin' stuff, completing quests and the often arbitrary 'roleplay' bonus, was the contribution bonus. Amber Diceless RPG was famous for this in our group. Players who actually contributed content in terms of art, or NPCs or new stories/locations got a hefty experience bonus compared to players who more passively just consumed content. Dana's description of a hypothetical 'author' class and my own recent experiences with Architect (and Storyteller) remind me that this system was powerfully effective. On one level, yup, it's a purely OOC reward for an OOC action, creating content, but I remember the binders and postertubes overflowing with content our tabletop GM had at his beck and call. He didn't have to do much more than manage, and edit/balance, the stuff coming his way and weave in the occasional surprise or backfire. The players made their own world, and their own fun, and then some. Why couldn't this kind of thing work in the universe of modders and hackers and scenario designers we have all over the internet? The main human investment a company would need to make would be folks who'd oversee and rate content/continuity so casual players looking for a more integrated, quality controlled, experience could find it in the middle of all the other stuff going on.
M&B is one of the best arguments as to why players should be allowed creative freedom. But there needs to be intervention, for an MMO at least, to edit and refine things before you give them an official seal of approval. Make sure it all works together, makes sense, is balanced and advances or fleshes out an existing storyline.
Played FFXI, AoConan, Silkroad Online, Ether Saga Online. Waiting for FFXIV! Recruiting members for upcoming FFXIV Guild Crimson Night!www.crimson-night.net
Danas best article you've written on this site. I too wish someone would bring back the sandbox and make it worth while. Eve is a great game as was UO. Part of the problem these days is everyone wants to be sent down the road to the next stopping point pick up the same type of quests and toddle along on their passage to greatness. Honestly it is getting old.
Dana is right about Darkfall. Totally not a sandbox it is nothing but FFA pvp, you will not be sitting in your house playing chess with a friend. WOW brought alot of players to this genre and alot of those players want the WOW style of play now and almost all the dev's these days are trying to get that WOW flavor for players. Most are failing miserably and are not staying true to their focus as investers want the numbers WOW generates.
There is room for good MMORPG's without the instant gratification. Do we have to have 5 million plus players to be a success? I say no. What a gaming company needs is a solid game to make a profit and pay for future development and they will do well. Look at CCP. I think these days it is more about numbers, then it is about a vision and immersing the player in that vision.
Danas best article you've written on this site. I too wish someone would bring back the sandbox and make it worth while. Eve is a great game as was UO. Part of the problem these days is everyone wants to be sent down the road to the next stopping point pick up the same type of quests and toddle along on their passage to greatness. Honestly it is getting old. Dana is right about Darkfall. Totally not a sandbox it is nothing but FFA pvp, you will not be sitting in your house playing chess with a friend. WOW brought alot of players to this genre and alot of those players want the WOW style of play now and almost all the dev's these days are trying to get that WOW flavor for players. Most are failing miserably and are not staying true to their focus as investers want the numbers WOW generates. There is room for good MMORPG's without the instant gratification. Do we have to have 5 million plus players to be a success? I say no. What a gaming company needs is a solid game to make a profit and pay for future development and they will do well. Look at CCP. I think these days it is more about numbers, then it is about a vision and immersing the player in that vision.
While I understand what you are saying game wise(I'm burned out on WoW currently myself), in reality it IS *all* about the numbers. Its ONLY the numbers that attracts investors. Its ONLY the numbers(return on investment) that investors care about.
They don't know, or care what makes a game great. All they know is that WoW has 11.5 million players, and that Blizzard is making HUGE amounts of money. That is one of the major reasons that we've seen so many WoW clones. Its also why so many games have "failed" in *investors eyes*, because they never reach even a fraction of WoW's player base.
Because it takes millions upon millions(of other peoples money), we are quite unlikely to see a real sand box game that has the traits that have been spoken of here. No, MO is not going to be that game. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt(that they don't turn out like darkfall), they are still going to remain a niche game, and thus will lack the player base and funding to move beyond a full loot gankfest.
It also bears repeating that its not just the games that have changed. Its the perspectives and expectations of the vast majority of the player base. They WANT theme park type games. They WANT to be spoon fed content. They WANT to have their hands held and be directed to the end game. Damn few these days know or care about what we've spoken of in terms of creating ones own path. Certainly not enough to fund the type of return on investment that investors demand. Until middle ware reaches the point that a handful of creative/talented and inspired Dev's can create a full scale game, we are pretty much out of luck.
I have been searching and searching for a new MMO that could remind me of the old days of UO when everything was fun and I could sit on and play for hours like it was the alternate me. I could make friends and socialize and find things to do with online players at any time and most were more than happy to join me in an adventure or two. Now, just as you said the EXP factor is killing the MMO industry, because I for one KNOW AS A FACT that when I am playing WOW or any other game like it, that I don't want anyone hogging the EXP that I could be using to LVL up instead, off of monsters that I could kill myself. It totally kills the WANT to make friends and the WANT to party up. There's almost no point in being an MMO because no one is really communicating but to sell items, and when you DO communicate most players don't want YOU around even if you ARE being open to sharing EXP and being friendly.
To be honest, I truly admire you for this post, I wish that some game developers would read and take this topic to heart. I miss the player base UO brought around and the fun of it all, there has been NO game up to date that has even closely intrigued me like UO did.
This is very sad, for the MMO Community is severely suffering from the closed mindedness of the Game Developers in our time. If only Origin could show these guys a few tips we'd all have a game we could all enjoy for more than the first hour or two.
I play a decent sandbox game, just to list what i did today.
Today, i began by getting out of bed streching having a meal and some water because im out of grape juice, grapes are out of season you see.
After breakfest i went out and milked the cows, checked to make sure the pregnant cows were still pregnant and that none had given birth in the night. two calfs were born, so i placed them in a seperate pen with lots of food so they could grow up fat.
One old bull had passed away "waste not want not" i made some leather which later ill make some repairs on my studded leather armor. the meat i harvested from the bull weill go intot omarrows breakfest or perhaps dinner.
I took the milk i had gather and made cheese, then took the chease and fed it to the pigs, they are pigs so they eat alot....
I knoticed some trees near my village were getting up to size to be use able in my boat crafting, so i felled them later ill make planks which ill add to boats.
I knotied some cracks in my stone walls around my farm, so i went down intot he mine and gatherd some perfectly sized shards to repair the wall then of course tended to my farms which will feed me further whent heyre are ready to be harvested.
I then decided to go hunting , and so i trecked off east into the forest with my trusting compass and long sword, wearing my recently repaired studded leather armor, as i crept thru the forest in search of a good sized buck to take down, i came apun some webs no sooner then i knoticed the webs i found a huge spider apon me. and so i ran, for i was ill prepared for spiders. I made some distance drew my bow and took aim. MARK the spider falls, and i move in to harvest my prize, and fail creating a terrible mess which i could only bury in shame.
Some time after finding my prize buck and gather all the hide i would need to make another set of leather armor for a friend i returned home to begin working on this new set iw ould craft with care., as night approuched, i retired to my bed, who knows what tomarrow will hold, perhaps ill log in now and find out.
BTW i play wurm online. Feel free to come join me, perhaps well move mountains.
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
Wraithone: Tabletop RPGs started out as railroads, the dungeon crawl, became theme parks, city hubs for different dungeon crawls with more backstory and a few more options, and eventually evolved into more freeform sandbox games which tend to stress either mechanics as a jumping off point for exploration or competition (Traveller or Chivalry & Sorcery) or shared storytelling and player driven narratives (Ars Magica & World of Darkness) or completely diceless improvisations (Nobilis and Amber are the best known examples).
The latter formulation would probably work best as forum roleplaying or play-by-email but the other two could well have lessons to offer to MMOs. In Eve Online, via Tradewars, I see a little Chivalry and Sorcery (and Traveller) in the mix of roleplaying mechanics with economics, politics and warfare already. But precious few other lessons have been learned and it's likely that even the designers of these MMOs don't know the origins of some of the systems they invented or retrofitted from other games.
Yes, D&D is still the big dog and always will be. It's the entry level RPG for most folks and with a creative guy running a game it can be every bit as deep and interesting as the more evolved RPGs out there. Still, smaller RPGs do exist and thrive especially among independent publishers just as independant game designers can make a splash as they work with indie publishers out there or self publish.
MMOs do take more work than most computer games and certainly more infrastructure and technical expertise to craft than a roleplaying game that's book based. But if a designer has a dream and is more interested in pushing the envelope of his craft or bringing a world he loves to love it can well happen. It's only people who are more concerned with bank accounts that say no.
One day the pros making money for the big developers will retire and hopefully not have to worry about what the moneyman says. When they get to talking and designing, for fun or to explore ideas they were told they couldn't do, watch out. Just watch out.
I play a decent sandbox game, just to list what i did today. Today, i began by getting out of bed streching having a meal and some water because im out of grape juice, grapes are out of season you see. After breakfest i went out and milked the cows, checked to make sure the pregnant cows were still pregnant and that none had given birth in the night. two calfs were born, so i placed them in a seperate pen with lots of food so they could grow up fat. One old bull had passed away "waste not want not" i made some leather which later ill make some repairs on my studded leather armor. the meat i harvested from the bull weill go intot omarrows breakfest or perhaps dinner. I took the milk i had gather and made cheese, then took the chease and fed it to the pigs, they are pigs so they eat alot.... I knoticed some trees near my village were getting up to size to be use able in my boat crafting, so i felled them later ill make planks which ill add to boats. I knotied some cracks in my stone walls around my farm, so i went down intot he mine and gatherd some perfectly sized shards to repair the wall then of course tended to my farms which will feed me further whent heyre are ready to be harvested. I then decided to go hunting , and so i trecked off east into the forest with my trusting compass and long sword, wearing my recently repaired studded leather armor, as i crept thru the forest in search of a good sized buck to take down, i came apun some webs no sooner then i knoticed the webs i found a huge spider apon me. and so i ran, for i was ill prepared for spiders. I made some distance drew my bow and took aim. MARK the spider falls, and i move in to harvest my prize, and fail creating a terrible mess which i could only bury in shame. Some time after finding my prize buck and gather all the hide i would need to make another set of leather armor for a friend i returned home to begin working on this new set iw ould craft with care., as night approuched, i retired to my bed, who knows what tomarrow will hold, perhaps ill log in now and find out. BTW i play wurm online. Feel free to come join me, perhaps well move mountains.
More power to you man, but I find that game to be clunky and the client is horrible. I like the idea of it, and I hope it continues to evolve just like A Tale in the Desert.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Comments
To this day no game has surpassed UO in terms of fun for me. No game has even come close, really.
I would love to see someone take the T2A UO and put it into a modern 3D engine. I think it would be great.
But.... It's been almost 13 years since this genre started and there really have not been any big improvements in game design.
Personally I would love to see something bigger than UO. I want a fantastical virtual world. I want a place to go to live another life, a life of a mage, or warrior, or an inn keeper if you choose. A world as mirrored to an actual living breathing place as technology will allow.
I want a game that changes and adapts to it's players where there are realistic consequences for your actions and meaningful rewards for heroic deeds.
A world like the one found in 1/2 Prince or .Hack.
Do I ever thing this will happen? Absolutely not.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I'd argue a 'sandbox' is more defined by what it does not limit than what it does, and some of those limits are more implicit in the 'game culture' than explicit in the skills sets and 'Terms and Conditions'.
The concept of 'end game' is a tricky one though - for some players, an mmorpg is (admittedly in a pretty limited way) an alternate 'life', and opinions vary greatly if either the 'artificial' or 'real' life should have a neatly defined 'end game'.
Problems come in with, to use your example, areas where you need high skills to go somewhere, or high mining skills for a particular ore. In the real world, people go to extremely dangerous places out of a sense of adventure and exploration, or to be known as the explorer/discoverer of something, or for profit from what they think is there - the latter is especially true for the 'rare mineral extraction'. But those are not ends in themselves, they translate into the joy of the experience, fame for the achievement, fortune from the profits - but they are not the end of the 'game'.
By advertising certain areas as the 'most difficult, greatest reward sources' there is an automatic implied challenge in there - and given much of the audience is competetive-minded gamers, it's bound to appeal - that this is where the 'best' players are to be found, and thus qualifying to be there and thrive becomes an aim in and of itself. But life really isn't like that.... or rather, it is for a small minority, most of us are not slogging out our lives desperately trying to get a particular house, car and lifestyle in the hope of looking impressive to the rest of the world. Many do it happily, in some cases almost obsessively, in a game setting, but simply because the objective is there and presented as a nice shiny medal to wear, and conveys a sense of importance or achievement, it skews the structure of the game world. The 'game objective' takes control more and more insidiously until to many it becomes the entire point - but in that, you lose the sandbox elements of freedom of approach, style and action that you can get by just setting up the core, very minimal, rules and leaving people to get on with 'living' in that world.
Sandboxes don't have 'winners' in the usual gaming sense, although they can have 'winners' in the sense that people regard their achievements in life as 'winning' - but that concept is not one that sells easily to sales and marketing people.
Each style of games tries to appeal to a different style of player, but at present, the most money is with the competitive, and thus widely copied, level/quest/item scripted model. The market for a real freestyle game is there, but much smaller - probably still enough to make a pretty reasonable living, but 'reasonable' profit doesn't appeal much to the corporate world.
Problem with all these developers out there, they are afraid players can't handle a non grind game. The genre has so conditioned players to expect such.
The Darkfall kids make me laugh, they think Darkfall is a sandbox game when it is strictly a pvp game with the elements needed to make it a true sandbox mostly missing. I would not hold your breath waiting for Aventurine to add them either.
And since he (eric) went there, I'll follow up using your quote that he exhibits the typical qualities of the Bush era administration of shaking your finger and proclaiming to the world someone is wrong but not having any idea why.
I just wanted to note that this made me smile. I just cannot stand people like Eric.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
This is a wonderful article on what a sandbox MMO is or might be - but it doesn't answer the question of its title:
Why not... build a sandbox MMO?
There are many answers to that question but here are just a few;
Because they are more expensive to design, make and manage than level-based themeparks
Because their revenues cannot be so clearly predicted as level-based themeparks
Because their dynamic depends on the participation of the user rather than the direction of the designer - and designers don't like to lose control of their game.
The best comment about sandbox mmos came in an article in the New York Times discussing the horrible fate of Star Wars Galaxies when SOE implemented the NGE:
'They took a virtual world and turned it into a virtual game'.
Thank you for your article, I thought it was very good.
I would love to play a proper sandbox game as I feel it would add a level of immersion which other games lack.
Best wishes
Moonraker
Interesting. I played SWG for 3 years and never, ever felt like I was being channeled toward anything. In fact, they had a few quest theme parks and the story arch quests, but other than that there wasn't much for questing out there. Yeah, we had to grind missions to skill up, but back pre-NGE you could get your character to max out your skill points in a few days of playing. Because of this people were encouraged to try all kinds of different skill tree builds until they settled on something they loved (Master Ranger/Master Riflemen was my fav hunting build). I agree there was a grind element to SWG, but it didn't last long at all compared to the current theme park games which are all about grinding out quests until you reach the end-game. Hell, only a few percentage points of WoW's population, for example, ends up doing end-game so you have to wonder why they are designed this way in the first place.
Funny enough Master Ranger/Master Rifleman was the build that appealed to me the most. Sadly the very short ranges in which you could engage mobs made it not possible to play the role of Sniper I wanted so I was forced into a more traditional role for my character.
My beef with SWG is based on two things:
-I am a big fan of meaningfull crafting. The SWG crafting system seemed like a perfect fit for me with all the customization options. I was going to start out as a weaponsmith. I gathered a stash of resources and started leveling it. I was forced to make a ton of useless junk so my skill box could fill up a bit. I probably could have handled it but the interface was so atricious that after 10 minutes of craft grinding my wrist started hurting. For my pain I got a very small increase in xp and still no abiltiy to make anything meaningfull. I finally chucked the profession and went with a combat build that while grindy would not leave me with physical damage to my body. That was such an unnecessary grind that turned me off the most promising feature of the game.
-After you skilled up your character there was not much meaningfull to do after a while. My Master Ranger/Master Rifleman got very good at hunting and harvesting biologicals but after a while I wanted something different to do. I got a house and my guild build a full player city but that was a finite experience as well. Since we could not level alts in the game, I would have had to chuck my Master Ranger/Master Rifleman to try a new set of professions and that just kills any immersion in the character. The big exciting thing to try were the themeparks. If my options are to do the same dull stuff I have been doing for months or do quest chains then I might as well go to WoW. The social interaction is great but I can do that in any MMO.
I think the problem that you faced was two-fol;
Firstly, while the crafting system was rich and complex, it took a lot of grinding. That in itself was not a bad thing but the items that it produced had no game use and couldn't be sold.
Secondly, while a rifleman/ranger sounds excellent on paper, those were two of the professions that SOE never even attempted to balance so make them combat effective in either PVP or PVE. That was just an unlucky choice on your part.
I actually rejoined UO once again since I can't find that freedom in any other MMORPG.
I play UO alongside EQ2 and WoW...
UO: Milena - Human Mage & Alchemist (Since 1998)
EQI & II: Milena - Wood Elf Druid/Warden & Provisioner/Baker & Brewer (Since 1999)
WoW: Luminess - Nigh Elf Druid, Herbalist & Alchemist (Since 2005)
Well I know two great sandbox games weather u know they are or not Darkfall is a wonderfull game where even a level 1 can jump in the battle. Also EVE online as it is a space game it is also open and players within a week can jump right into the battle for pvp action.
the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well
They have become bigger jerks.
Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.
Now imagine that in full sandbox?
*shudder*
That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.
Simply can't be done, without some limitations on PvP. Every system I've seen that doesn't use HARD CODED(server side) limits on who can attack who, has ended up being a gankfest. Its simply the nature of the Beast. Griefers and gankers are WAY too "creative" in finding ways around any system thats not hard coded. They then eventually drive off the very type of people that a real sand box MUST have to evolve into a living breathing world.
I know that a lot of people become grumpy whenever SWG is cited but I really think that game managed to 'fix' the problem of PKing in a sandbox world. It did that with its Covert/Overt system. If you were 'Covert' - ie just being an ordinary civilian - you could not be attacked by members of the opposite faction. Only if you were 'Overt' - performing rebel or imperial duties - could you be attacked. Certain things turned you overt - liking attacking rebel/imperial nps or wearing reb/imp armor. All in all, I thought it worked.
There have been only two good sandbox mmo's imo--
UO, and swg prior to the cu/nge.
I loved early galaxies and now playing it makes me want to vomit. I loved uo also, but it's a shell of its former self and the graphics make me want to cry... I think my disappointment with it is doubled by the fact that they've killed several potentially great sequels. I still miss the early days and crafting in SWG.
I have little hope for any other current mmo's in the upcoming market to help scratch my sandbox itch, those two were flukes and they'll never have the appeal of a mass market game like wow, so no one tries to copy them. Even RG's later games like Tabula Rasa weren't sandboxes. Sad, that man really knew how to grow em if you know what I mean.
I look forward to the day when i can play a mmo that isn't a game and is a real world... but that would require massive advanced in game ai... but I'm hopeful still. Someday.
Shadus
While I'm a sandbox Fan myself I think certain players have rose colored glasses when speaking of SWG and UO.
I still think those games in thier original form were in the top 5 of my MMOs of all times but really Both Ryzom and Eve offer A good amount of freedom (nearly as much as UO/Swg) also games like AO and AC1 while hybrids give a ton of freedom to its players that themeparks of today don't give you.
So to say UO and Swg were the only sandbox games is kind of a slap in the face to every MMO that's tried to break the mold set by EQ/WoW.
Considering a good majority of the SWG players migrated to Ryzom and even after all the crap alot of them remain I think they would disagree that Swg and UO are the only good sandbox games.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
While I'm a sandbox Fan myself I think certain players have rose colored glasses when speaking of SWG and UO.
I still think those games in thier original form were in the top 5 of my MMOs of all times but really Both Ryzom and Eve offer A good amount of freedom (nearly as much as UO/Swg) also games like AO and AC1 while hybrids give a ton of freedom to its players that themeparks of today don't give you.
So to say UO and Swg were the only sandbox games is kind of a slap in the face to every MMO that's tried to break the mold set by EQ/WoW.
Considering a good majority of the SWG players migrated to Ryzom and even after all the crap alot of them remain I think they would disagree that Swg and UO are the only good sandbox games.
EVE Online is certainly proof that sandbox can work, even if you don't like the gameplay and content of EVE Online.
And Ryzom, yes, the hidden gem of the mmorpg genre. It does need some attention, but thats the game I go to when I want a break from EVE Online, or when I feel like playing a character ( instead of a ship )
If you think of it, both EVE Online and Ryzom are still very true to it's original, unlike Ultima Online or SWG.
Ryzom, because there never was alot of development done and EVE, because CCP knows how to improve and expand an mmo without allianating the veterans.
The 2 games I like the most DAoC and SWG have both been completely mutilated by the devs, one slowly and unknowingly, the other quick and hard, but the end result is the same, you hardly recognize the game and the vision has completely changed.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Ooo! Ooo! Can I answer this one? (And no apologies even if it has been responded two a half dozen times or more.)
In a 'sandbox' there is no best for very long. Someone usually comes up with a counter strategy pretty fast. If there is, it's probably a broken mechanic and gets fixed or nerfed as soon as the designers can figure out how best to balance. (I don't need to mention any recent 'balances' to EvE players, they know what I'm talking about.)
(Fixed spelling for ya.)
This is probably the article I've most enjoyed by Dana and I think I'm on the same wavelength.
One mechanic for granting experience in old tabletop RPGs, aside from killin' stuff, completing quests and the often arbitrary 'roleplay' bonus, was the contribution bonus. Amber Diceless RPG was famous for this in our group. Players who actually contributed content in terms of art, or NPCs or new stories/locations got a hefty experience bonus compared to players who more passively just consumed content. Dana's description of a hypothetical 'author' class and my own recent experiences with Architect (and Storyteller) remind me that this system was powerfully effective. On one level, yup, it's a purely OOC reward for an OOC action, creating content, but I remember the binders and postertubes overflowing with content our tabletop GM had at his beck and call. He didn't have to do much more than manage, and edit/balance, the stuff coming his way and weave in the occasional surprise or backfire. The players made their own world, and their own fun, and then some.
Why couldn't this kind of thing work in the universe of modders and hackers and scenario designers we have all over the internet? The main human investment a company would need to make would be folks who'd oversee and rate content/continuity so casual players looking for a more integrated, quality controlled, experience could find it in the middle of all the other stuff going on.
Always notice what you notice.
And that reminds me a lot of Mount & Blade.
M&B is one of the best arguments as to why players should be allowed creative freedom. But there needs to be intervention, for an MMO at least, to edit and refine things before you give them an official seal of approval. Make sure it all works together, makes sense, is balanced and advances or fleshes out an existing storyline.
Always notice what you notice.
I think he didnt mention
MORTAL ONLINE!!!
Played FFXI, AoConan, Silkroad Online, Ether Saga Online. Waiting for FFXIV!
Recruiting members for upcoming FFXIV Guild Crimson Night!www.crimson-night.net
Danas best article you've written on this site. I too wish someone would bring back the sandbox and make it worth while. Eve is a great game as was UO. Part of the problem these days is everyone wants to be sent down the road to the next stopping point pick up the same type of quests and toddle along on their passage to greatness. Honestly it is getting old.
Dana is right about Darkfall. Totally not a sandbox it is nothing but FFA pvp, you will not be sitting in your house playing chess with a friend. WOW brought alot of players to this genre and alot of those players want the WOW style of play now and almost all the dev's these days are trying to get that WOW flavor for players. Most are failing miserably and are not staying true to their focus as investers want the numbers WOW generates.
There is room for good MMORPG's without the instant gratification. Do we have to have 5 million plus players to be a success? I say no. What a gaming company needs is a solid game to make a profit and pay for future development and they will do well. Look at CCP. I think these days it is more about numbers, then it is about a vision and immersing the player in that vision.
While I understand what you are saying game wise(I'm burned out on WoW currently myself), in reality it IS *all* about the numbers. Its ONLY the numbers that attracts investors. Its ONLY the numbers(return on investment) that investors care about.
They don't know, or care what makes a game great. All they know is that WoW has 11.5 million players, and that Blizzard is making HUGE amounts of money. That is one of the major reasons that we've seen so many WoW clones. Its also why so many games have "failed" in *investors eyes*, because they never reach even a fraction of WoW's player base.
Because it takes millions upon millions(of other peoples money), we are quite unlikely to see a real sand box game that has the traits that have been spoken of here. No, MO is not going to be that game. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt(that they don't turn out like darkfall), they are still going to remain a niche game, and thus will lack the player base and funding to move beyond a full loot gankfest.
It also bears repeating that its not just the games that have changed. Its the perspectives and expectations of the vast majority of the player base. They WANT theme park type games. They WANT to be spoon fed content. They WANT to have their hands held and be directed to the end game. Damn few these days know or care about what we've spoken of in terms of creating ones own path. Certainly not enough to fund the type of return on investment that investors demand. Until middle ware reaches the point that a handful of creative/talented and inspired Dev's can create a full scale game, we are pretty much out of luck.
I have been searching and searching for a new MMO that could remind me of the old days of UO when everything was fun and I could sit on and play for hours like it was the alternate me. I could make friends and socialize and find things to do with online players at any time and most were more than happy to join me in an adventure or two. Now, just as you said the EXP factor is killing the MMO industry, because I for one KNOW AS A FACT that when I am playing WOW or any other game like it, that I don't want anyone hogging the EXP that I could be using to LVL up instead, off of monsters that I could kill myself. It totally kills the WANT to make friends and the WANT to party up. There's almost no point in being an MMO because no one is really communicating but to sell items, and when you DO communicate most players don't want YOU around even if you ARE being open to sharing EXP and being friendly.
To be honest, I truly admire you for this post, I wish that some game developers would read and take this topic to heart. I miss the player base UO brought around and the fun of it all, there has been NO game up to date that has even closely intrigued me like UO did.
This is very sad, for the MMO Community is severely suffering from the closed mindedness of the Game Developers in our time. If only Origin could show these guys a few tips we'd all have a game we could all enjoy for more than the first hour or two.
I play a decent sandbox game, just to list what i did today.
Today, i began by getting out of bed streching having a meal and some water because im out of grape juice, grapes are out of season you see.
After breakfest i went out and milked the cows, checked to make sure the pregnant cows were still pregnant and that none had given birth in the night. two calfs were born, so i placed them in a seperate pen with lots of food so they could grow up fat.
One old bull had passed away "waste not want not" i made some leather which later ill make some repairs on my studded leather armor. the meat i harvested from the bull weill go intot omarrows breakfest or perhaps dinner.
I took the milk i had gather and made cheese, then took the chease and fed it to the pigs, they are pigs so they eat alot....
I knoticed some trees near my village were getting up to size to be use able in my boat crafting, so i felled them later ill make planks which ill add to boats.
I knotied some cracks in my stone walls around my farm, so i went down intot he mine and gatherd some perfectly sized shards to repair the wall then of course tended to my farms which will feed me further whent heyre are ready to be harvested.
I then decided to go hunting , and so i trecked off east into the forest with my trusting compass and long sword, wearing my recently repaired studded leather armor, as i crept thru the forest in search of a good sized buck to take down, i came apun some webs no sooner then i knoticed the webs i found a huge spider apon me. and so i ran, for i was ill prepared for spiders. I made some distance drew my bow and took aim. MARK the spider falls, and i move in to harvest my prize, and fail creating a terrible mess which i could only bury in shame.
Some time after finding my prize buck and gather all the hide i would need to make another set of leather armor for a friend i returned home to begin working on this new set iw ould craft with care., as night approuched, i retired to my bed, who knows what tomarrow will hold, perhaps ill log in now and find out.
BTW i play wurm online. Feel free to come join me, perhaps well move mountains.
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
Wraithone: Tabletop RPGs started out as railroads, the dungeon crawl, became theme parks, city hubs for different dungeon crawls with more backstory and a few more options, and eventually evolved into more freeform sandbox games which tend to stress either mechanics as a jumping off point for exploration or competition (Traveller or Chivalry & Sorcery) or shared storytelling and player driven narratives (Ars Magica & World of Darkness) or completely diceless improvisations (Nobilis and Amber are the best known examples).
The latter formulation would probably work best as forum roleplaying or play-by-email but the other two could well have lessons to offer to MMOs. In Eve Online, via Tradewars, I see a little Chivalry and Sorcery (and Traveller) in the mix of roleplaying mechanics with economics, politics and warfare already. But precious few other lessons have been learned and it's likely that even the designers of these MMOs don't know the origins of some of the systems they invented or retrofitted from other games.
Yes, D&D is still the big dog and always will be. It's the entry level RPG for most folks and with a creative guy running a game it can be every bit as deep and interesting as the more evolved RPGs out there. Still, smaller RPGs do exist and thrive especially among independent publishers just as independant game designers can make a splash as they work with indie publishers out there or self publish.
MMOs do take more work than most computer games and certainly more infrastructure and technical expertise to craft than a roleplaying game that's book based. But if a designer has a dream and is more interested in pushing the envelope of his craft or bringing a world he loves to love it can well happen. It's only people who are more concerned with bank accounts that say no.
One day the pros making money for the big developers will retire and hopefully not have to worry about what the moneyman says. When they get to talking and designing, for fun or to explore ideas they were told they couldn't do, watch out. Just watch out.
Always notice what you notice.
/sign Dana, period!
More power to you man, but I find that game to be clunky and the client is horrible. I like the idea of it, and I hope it continues to evolve just like A Tale in the Desert.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.