More proof of their stupidity and why they should have limited the benefit to US automaker models. They are incompetent.
How dare you insist that the US government tell you which car you can buy or not buy!
I LOL'd.
Amen. If the government had told you that you had to buy an American car made by an American car company, you would be up in arms that our government is trying to tell you what car you can buy.
And why bring up health care in this thread? Because your original statement that "Cash for clunkers failed" was completely destroyed? Next time you want to try and bash something that the Democrats have done, do a little research first and learn how the economy works.
LOL Repubs are such hypocrites, they don't want the government to tell them to do ANYTHING yet they want the govt to tell us that we HAVE to buy an American car for the cash for clunkers.
Oh and you know what the number 1 car being sold under the cash for clunkers is? A Ford Focus. I would say Ford is loving the Cash for Clunkers program, wouldn't you?
*EDIT* The Toyota Corolla just passed the Focus as the number one selling car with the cash for clunkers. But GM still has sold the greatest percentage of cars with the program.
Well to show how little you actually know, you wen't and opened your mouth again. The republicans have NO controle over ANYTHING. They don't have a majority in the senate, they don't even have enough to fillabuster in congress and Obama doesn't have any on his staff. So this statment is totaly false.
Now second...to REALLY show how little you know, the healthcare plan that is in disscution right doesn't have anything to do with Obama, the plan was originated in the SENATE!!! Obama really doesn't have anything to do with this EXEPT he is out lobbying for it, and if it did pass he COULD veto it.
But this whole "Republicans probably took that common sense out of the bill and Obama pushed though what he could ultimately." is TOTALY FALSE.
The only thing that is holding it up right now are talks in the senate, and a few of the more moderate dems are listening to the people and going to the "town hall" meetings and they are like "wait a sec guys....if we wanna get reelected maybe we should"
How many Republicans said they are going to cockblock? All of them, so control doesn't matter. It's supposed to be a "bi-partisan effort" but they are just the party of "No Effort". Why would you expect all Democrats to LOVE the plan? Because they are all Democrats? Does that even make any sense to you? If it doesn't, then why would you expect all Republicans to HATE the plan? Simply because they are all Republicans? Some like it but wouldn't dare say yes because they'd get the Arlen Specter treatment.
So Obama has nothing at all to do with formulating the healthplan that everyone is saying is "his", Republican and Democratic. Yeah, you're right your wisdom escapes me. Of course its "his" plan, everyone knows that, it doesn't matter who introduced it.
Of course Republicans chopped the bill to shreds. I wouldn't vote on garbage if I was a Democrat either that had been ripped to pieces because special interests told Republicans its not a good idea to sign. Look at all the special interests backing the Republicans on this and you'll see who's calling the shots. That's why Baucus (the Dem) isn't voting because his biggest contributor to his campaigns have been MEDICAL special interests.
Those townhalls are nicely orchestrated events. I really enjoy watching morons outyell politicians and holding up birth certificates and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. That's a constructive way to have a discussion for sure. What clueless, Fox-puppeted jackoffs those fools on television screaming are, lol.
You dont' even under stand do you? ITS DOESN"T MATTER WHAT THE REPUBLICANS SAY!!!!!!!
they DO NOT have control....if the DEMS wanted to pass this bill they could. they don't need ONE republican vote. so this whole "the republicans are cockblocking it" doesn't even make sense. I know you ignored most of my post, I under stand you don't know how this work....its ok. but use some common sense.
My point was, Obama doesn't have the power to "ram" anything through. Sure most people may say "its Obama's plan" or refere to it as "Obamacare" but when it comes to passing or failing and what is in it...he has NOTHING to do with it.
I'm not even sure what you are saying here.....Which bill are you taling about? the cash for clunkers or the healthcare?
Lol you think the townhall meeting are fake? and orchestrated? HAHAH and you call the birthers "nuts". You are so off base its not even funny, those town hall meetings are full of people who are pissed off at there representitives and people in DC. Don't you get it...America is mad. we now have unenployment blushing 10% and its not getting better. PEOPLE ARE MAD
Well to show how little you actually know, you wen't and opened your mouth again. The republicans have NO controle over ANYTHING. They don't have a majority in the senate, they don't even have enough to fillabuster in congress and Obama doesn't have any on his staff. So this statment is totaly false.
Now second...to REALLY show how little you know, the healthcare plan that is in disscution right doesn't have anything to do with Obama, the plan was originated in the SENATE!!! Obama really doesn't have anything to do with this EXEPT he is out lobbying for it, and if it did pass he COULD veto it.
But this whole "Republicans probably took that common sense out of the bill and Obama pushed though what he could ultimately." is TOTALY FALSE.
The only thing that is holding it up right now are talks in the senate, and a few of the more moderate dems are listening to the people and going to the "town hall" meetings and they are like "wait a sec guys....if we wanna get reelected maybe we should"
How many Republicans said they are going to cockblock? All of them, so control doesn't matter. It's supposed to be a "bi-partisan effort" but they are just the party of "No Effort". Why would you expect all Democrats to LOVE the plan? Because they are all Democrats? Does that even make any sense to you? If it doesn't, then why would you expect all Republicans to HATE the plan? Simply because they are all Republicans? Some like it but wouldn't dare say yes because they'd get the Arlen Specter treatment.
So Obama has nothing at all to do with formulating the healthplan that everyone is saying is "his", Republican and Democratic. Yeah, you're right your wisdom escapes me. Of course its "his" plan, everyone knows that, it doesn't matter who introduced it.
Of course Republicans chopped the bill to shreds. I wouldn't vote on garbage if I was a Democrat either that had been ripped to pieces because special interests told Republicans its not a good idea to sign. Look at all the special interests backing the Republicans on this and you'll see who's calling the shots. That's why Baucus (the Dem) isn't voting because his biggest contributor to his campaigns have been MEDICAL special interests.
Those townhalls are nicely orchestrated events. I really enjoy watching morons outyell politicians and holding up birth certificates and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. That's a constructive way to have a discussion for sure. What clueless, Fox-puppeted jackoffs those fools on television screaming are, lol.
You dont' even under stand do you? ITS DOESN"T MATTER WHAT THE REPUBLICANS SAY!!!!!!!
they DO NOT have control....if the DEMS wanted to pass this bill they could. they don't need ONE republican vote. so this whole "the republicans are cockblocking it" doesn't even make sense. I know you ignored most of my post, I under stand you don't know how this work....its ok. but use some common sense.
Enough of this.
1: Just because they have the majority does not mean every bill put forward by democrats passes. Not every democrat agrees with every other one.
2: There aren't 60 democratic senators. There are 58 democrats and 2 independents. Granted, the independents have been voting with the dems on a lot.
3: Because of #1, certain things will be put into bills to try and appease republican senators to assure a pass.
If republicans have no purpose in the senate as you are proposing, why are they even showing up?
Master rebators... cash for clunkers was funded to last for 90 days, it ran out of money after three days!
If this program works so well mayby it can be applied to Medicare.. instead of the GOP paying back all that money thet looted from those "lockboxes" (causing 1935 Social Security, the largest government program in the world that keeps nearly half the +65 year old US citizens out of poverty, to go bankrupt by 2016 & 2037 vs the pres bush2's "privatization scam") President BH Obama "strongly opposes" privatization or raising the retirement age, but supports raising the cap on the payroll tax ($106,800 in 2009) to help fund the program. ref1
how about greenbacks for grannies, cash in those elderly parents that are such a drain on Medicare and use those funds to shoreup the Obamacare healthcare scam now pending before Congress.
Too bad for US automakers. It appears the stigma of US cars = low quality may be permanent. I drive a Benz E320 CDI, and I have yet to drive a domestic car that rides as smooth. Not even a Caddy offers the ride and luxury of Germany's finest...
They should have let them all crash and burn: A bad allocation of resources is a bad allocation of resources and the auto market is fairly competitive. There are other things the money could have gone to to create jobs, but obviously somebody had a stake in the companies..
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Lol you think the townhall meeting are fake? and orchestrated? HAHAH and you call the birthers "nuts". You are so off base its not even funny, those town hall meetings are full of people who are pissed off at there representitives and people in DC. Don't you get it...America is mad. we now have unenployment blushing 10% and its not getting better. PEOPLE ARE MAD
Dick Armey is a ex-politician and now corporate lobbyist who RUNS FreedomWorks. He also works for DLA Piper, whose one client, Medicines Co., paid them 1.5 million. They generated $11 million in one year from their lobbying activities.
So, who do you think gave those people those pretty banners and brainwashed to sit there holding socialism signs? All that town hall stuff is fake; the people are mad but that's because those idiots got tricked by the big corporate suits, and have no idea what they are protesting.
If you can't connect the dots, I don't know what to say.
A conspiracy theory popinjay? I thought your kind was above that?
Maybe when you have cold-hard facts that every one of those people are willingly being deceptive then I will agree with you. However, you have as much grounds to call that a conspiracy as I do to call all the Health Care Reform supporters brainwashed and tricked by other self-interest lobby groups.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do me a favor. Next time you want to derail a different thread with your "Conspiracy-Nut" insults, try not to act so high-and-mighty, just a suggestion.
Originally posted by aeroplane22 A conspiracy theory popinjay? I thought your kind was above that?
Maybe when you have cold-hard facts that every one of those people are willingly being deceptive then I will agree with you. However, you have as much grounds to call that a conspiracy as I do to call all the Health Care Reform supporters brainwashed and tricked by other self-interest lobby groups.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do me a favor. Next time you want to derail a different thread with your "Conspiracy-Nut" insults, try not to act so high-and-mighty, just a suggestion.
It's not a conspiracy when you can prove connections with traceable fact.
Dick Armey's organization fronted the Townyellers.
Dick Armey is employed by a lobbying firm that got over $1 million dollars to "represent their interest" along with other health concerns.
Dick Armey is a Republican ex-politician who's site encourages, posts and directs Townyellers to those meetings. Bus rides are organized as well.
Not a "theory" at all really.
That was a rebuttal to your buddy's post which derailed it.
One thing we have to realize is that America is not going to return to shopping mall; they are already too leveraged. The U.S. consumer is NOT going to bounce back. Somehow "green parachutes" will save us and we will all go back to consumption is at best far-fetched and at worst completely out of the question.
EDIT: And MY buying YOUR car --at least part of it-- ain't gonna make my air "greener" or YOUR economy better. You had to acquire debt to purchase it, or take it from a performing asset and divert it to the car industry.
Originally posted by frodus They have borrower the money from China to make this happen.One step forward and 2 steps back.
Chinese refuse to purchase long-term bonds now. And they want bonds whose interest rates adjust with inflation.
The U.S. has a printing press, and the Chinese having a printing press to keep up with the U.S. printing press, notwithstanding about 740 Billion in U.S. reserves. (Do not get me started on the grand bail-out that amounts to TRILLIONS).
We have a race of printing presses. Hence, the Chinese want off the dollar and are using the last bond to purchase: TIPS.
Originally posted by RedwoodSap Unlike the german version which this program was modeled after, ours does not limit the purchase to US automakers while the german model did limit itself to german automakers because the intent was to stimulate the german auto industry, not increase profits of foreign automakers.
In my opinion, not only should they have limited purchases of American cars only, but they should've upped the MPG limit, and made people buy hybrid cars. I mean afterall, isn't this administration supposed to be all for going green and giving people green jobs?
Originally posted by RedwoodSap Unlike the german version which this program was modeled after, ours does not limit the purchase to US automakers while the german model did limit itself to german automakers because the intent was to stimulate the german auto industry, not increase profits of foreign automakers.
In my opinion, not only should they have limited purchases of American cars only, but they should've upped the MPG limit, and made people buy hybrid cars. I mean afterall, isn't this administration supposed to be all for going green and giving people green jobs?
People would like to think so, but the evidence shows otherwise. As has already been said, there is no American auto restriction nor is their a stipulation that says it should be a eco-friendly car. What's the point, really? It might temporarily stimulate something, somewhere, but only for a short while.
As someone already said, "One step forward, two steps back." They'll blame it on the next administration once we see the effects in full.
People would like to think so, but the evidence shows otherwise. As has already been said, there is no American auto restriction nor is their a stipulation that says it should be a eco-friendly car. What's the point, really? It might temporarily stimulate something, somewhere, but only for a short while.
As someone already said, "One step forward, two steps back." They'll blame it on the next administration once we see the effects in full.
IMO this program is an ongoing disaster for so many reasons, reasons which counter any of the purposes it was supposed to serve. If you ask me, this was partially to foster a fake improvement in the industry and partially to soothe certain political figures that complained about how the auto-bailout was handled.
What it has actually done is caused people to trash cars that could have been resold, and caused them to get further into debt. It also supports the green-gimmick BS that the auto-makers are tending, which just plain sucks. I bet you that this program did NOT support, but actually leaned away from people buying the older cars that had 30+ MPG. I bet you it did.
These people out buying cars do not even need a GD discount either. They were already going to do it, this is just even more of a boon for them.
I have a serious problem with tax money being given to people as coupons for brand-new gimmick cars.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
What are you some kind of communist who believes all property belongs to the state?
They haven't given anyone anything, they are offering to take less from people. In fact, they will earn more taxes from this scheme than if they do nothing. Taking $3000 in sales tax not $5000 is better than taking $0.
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you a lot of countries have been doing this scheme including mine.
At the beginning of the scheme the pundits all said it was stupid and was only encouraging people to buy foreign motors.
One thing we have to realize is that America is not going to return to shopping mall; they are already too leveraged. The U.S. consumer is NOT going to bounce back. Somehow "green parachutes" will save us and we will all go back to consumption is at best far-fetched and at worst completely out of the question.
A lot of people still fail to acknowledge this. Our economy CANNOT recover to the point we were at during the height of the housing bubble. I think people are still expecting it to. It won't happen. Well, it shouldn't happen. It's hard to rule anything out completely when we've set such a terrible precedent. However, if it does, prepare for great depression 2.0.
What are you some kind of communist who believes all property belongs to the state? They haven't given anyone anything, they are offering to take less from people. In fact, they will earn more taxes from this scheme than if they do nothing. Taking $3000 in sales tax not $5000 is better than taking $0.
It cost 1 billion, and will cost 3 billion today. As I also said, people going out to participate in this were ALREADY going to buy new cars. You don't just up and lock yourself into 8-30k worth of debt in a recession/depression because you saw a coupon. Simply because you get a coupon for tampons in your email doesn't mean you that you will now buy a box of Tampax because they're cheaper today than yesterday.
And looking at it objectively, why does the auto-industry get coupons back by the government? Its totally random. Why not cigars?
The reality is that its a disgusting sham, if only for the fact that it supports the gimmick cars and is an appeasement. 3 billion to appease politicians. 3 billion dollars to people who were already well-to-do.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
If everyone who bought a car under this scheme was going to buy one anyway, and that is a big If as car sales have been falling for a long time now, (except in counties who have been operating this scheme for sometime, for them car sales are now rising),
If everyone who bought a car under this scheme was goining to have bought one anyway,it would still have cost zero pence.
Not $1 billion. Not $3 billion. Zero Billion.
They aren't getting any money from the government, they are just paying less.
Since I think the massive tax burden is a big part of the economic problems in the west, it doesn't strike me as bad when any sector of the economy receives a tax cut. Especially not when it is a struggling one.
And yes, tax breaks for cigars too please.
The only way I can agree with you that this scheme has cost the government any thing at all, is if you agree that all money belongs to the state and not the individual. Therefore anything that remains in the hands of the individual has been lost by the state. Under this philosophy It "costs" the government to allow you to keep what is yours.
What are you some kind of communist who believes all property belongs to the state? They haven't given anyone anything, they are offering to take less from people. In fact, they will earn more taxes from this scheme than if they do nothing. Taking $3000 in sales tax not $5000 is better than taking $0.
It cost 1 billion, and will cost 3 billion today. As I also said, people going out to participate in this were ALREADY going to buy new cars. You don't just up and lock yourself into 8-30k worth of debt in a recession/depression because you saw a coupon. Simply because you get a coupon for tampons in your email doesn't mean you that you will now buy a box of Tampax because they're cheaper today than yesterday.
Originally posted by declaredemer One thing we have to realize is that America is not going to return to shopping mall; they are already too leveraged. The U.S. consumer is NOT going to bounce back. Somehow "green parachutes" will save us and we will all go back to consumption is at best far-fetched and at worst completely out of the question.
EDIT: And MY buying YOUR car --at least part of it-- ain't gonna make my air "greener" or YOUR economy better. You had to acquire debt to purchase it, or take it from a performing asset and divert it to the car industry.
Comity? Comedy.
You underestimate Americans, declared. Where there's a will, there's a way. The U.S. consumer always bounces back. That's like saying that after the gas rationing days of "Odd/Even" license plates in the 1970's that when Americans finally came out of that hole, we wouldn't spend again.
You really think that in a capitalistic driven society like America where television is on 24 hours a day, a salesman like Billy Mays is given tributes, and where the largest private employer around is Walmart, that Americans are "spent out"? I've read your posts. You are much smarter than that.
I'm not sure what you are talking about in your EDIT when you say someone turning this in:
Won't make any difference than someone buying this with the rebate:
I honestly don't know if you're joking or not when you said that.
It cost 4 billion to set this up. It isn't even a tax break you idiot. They've taken 4 billion usd and started handing it out to people to buy new ones. Even as far as tax breaks are concerned, cars are at the bottom of the real priority list. Many states canceled school supply tax holidays, and have increased utility taxes like water, electricty, and even property.
"Sabian said: Please tell me you don't really believe that. "
Once more I will say that people who have bought cars under this program, were going to buy them anyway. Hell that is what half the people interviewed by the press outlets are actually saying. Want more proof? You only have to wait for up to 1 year to see what I am talking about. After this anomaly the sales will flatline beyond the explanation of the bad economy.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
The governent takes 33%+ on every car sold. On these ones they take 33%-$3500 or 33%-$4500.
So unless the car you buy costs less than $10,500 or $13,500 the government still makes a profit on every car sold. It costs them nothing.
Less than nothing. They gain money from it.
It didn't cost $4 billion. It cost $0 billion. They are making money.
And I don't have to wait a year for my proof. They introduced this scheme a year ago in Germany. They introduced it 6 months ago here. I already know what the results are. Car sales are going up when previously they were going down.
THE ENTIRE top ten being traded in are domestic makes, and all are either SUVs or vans.
6/10 of the vehicles being purchased are imports.
The funny thing about this program is that almost none of the vehicles being traded in are actually "clunkers" most are perfectly functional SUVs and minivans that are about 10 years old. Tremendous waste imo, since the vehicles are forbidden from resale. Think of the average working poor family that might all of a sudden been able to afford a perfectly decent used minivan/SUV.
The funny thing about this program is that almost none of the vehicles being traded in are actually "clunkers" most are perfectly functional SUVs and minivans that are about 10 years old. Tremendous waste imo, since the vehicles are forbidden from resale. Think of the average working poor family that might all of a sudden been able to afford a perfectly decent used minivan/SUV.
This is something I don't understand. Oh wait, I do. This is to force people to buy up sitting inventory, and increase or stabilize the price of same, to make it look like the auto-bailout wasn't a failure. Kind of like how state governments are actually BURNING DOWN VACANT HOMES to reduce inventory instead of actually, ya know, selling or renting at lower prices.
And both of those paths are hopeless. All that has been accomplished is the wanton destruction of basic necessities that people desperately need and could put to use. But some people are SPITEFUL and would rather see those things TORCHED before actually selling at a loss to another person. If they can't reap massive profit, than no one can ever, ever have it. Its a "F%^& you!" to society.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
Comments
How dare you insist that the US government tell you which car you can buy or not buy!
I LOL'd.
Amen. If the government had told you that you had to buy an American car made by an American car company, you would be up in arms that our government is trying to tell you what car you can buy.
And why bring up health care in this thread? Because your original statement that "Cash for clunkers failed" was completely destroyed? Next time you want to try and bash something that the Democrats have done, do a little research first and learn how the economy works.
LOL Repubs are such hypocrites, they don't want the government to tell them to do ANYTHING yet they want the govt to tell us that we HAVE to buy an American car for the cash for clunkers.
Oh and you know what the number 1 car being sold under the cash for clunkers is? A Ford Focus. I would say Ford is loving the Cash for Clunkers program, wouldn't you?
*EDIT* The Toyota Corolla just passed the Focus as the number one selling car with the cash for clunkers. But GM still has sold the greatest percentage of cars with the program.
How many Republicans said they are going to cockblock? All of them, so control doesn't matter. It's supposed to be a "bi-partisan effort" but they are just the party of "No Effort". Why would you expect all Democrats to LOVE the plan? Because they are all Democrats? Does that even make any sense to you? If it doesn't, then why would you expect all Republicans to HATE the plan? Simply because they are all Republicans? Some like it but wouldn't dare say yes because they'd get the Arlen Specter treatment.
So Obama has nothing at all to do with formulating the healthplan that everyone is saying is "his", Republican and Democratic. Yeah, you're right your wisdom escapes me. Of course its "his" plan, everyone knows that, it doesn't matter who introduced it.
Of course Republicans chopped the bill to shreds. I wouldn't vote on garbage if I was a Democrat either that had been ripped to pieces because special interests told Republicans its not a good idea to sign. Look at all the special interests backing the Republicans on this and you'll see who's calling the shots. That's why Baucus (the Dem) isn't voting because his biggest contributor to his campaigns have been MEDICAL special interests.
Those townhalls are nicely orchestrated events. I really enjoy watching morons outyell politicians and holding up birth certificates and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. That's a constructive way to have a discussion for sure. What clueless, Fox-puppeted jackoffs those fools on television screaming are, lol.
You dont' even under stand do you? ITS DOESN"T MATTER WHAT THE REPUBLICANS SAY!!!!!!!
they DO NOT have control....if the DEMS wanted to pass this bill they could. they don't need ONE republican vote. so this whole "the republicans are cockblocking it" doesn't even make sense. I know you ignored most of my post, I under stand you don't know how this work....its ok. but use some common sense.
My point was, Obama doesn't have the power to "ram" anything through. Sure most people may say "its Obama's plan" or refere to it as "Obamacare" but when it comes to passing or failing and what is in it...he has NOTHING to do with it.
I'm not even sure what you are saying here.....Which bill are you taling about? the cash for clunkers or the healthcare?
Lol you think the townhall meeting are fake? and orchestrated? HAHAH and you call the birthers "nuts". You are so off base its not even funny, those town hall meetings are full of people who are pissed off at there representitives and people in DC. Don't you get it...America is mad. we now have unenployment blushing 10% and its not getting better. PEOPLE ARE MAD
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How many Republicans said they are going to cockblock? All of them, so control doesn't matter. It's supposed to be a "bi-partisan effort" but they are just the party of "No Effort". Why would you expect all Democrats to LOVE the plan? Because they are all Democrats? Does that even make any sense to you? If it doesn't, then why would you expect all Republicans to HATE the plan? Simply because they are all Republicans? Some like it but wouldn't dare say yes because they'd get the Arlen Specter treatment.
So Obama has nothing at all to do with formulating the healthplan that everyone is saying is "his", Republican and Democratic. Yeah, you're right your wisdom escapes me. Of course its "his" plan, everyone knows that, it doesn't matter who introduced it.
Of course Republicans chopped the bill to shreds. I wouldn't vote on garbage if I was a Democrat either that had been ripped to pieces because special interests told Republicans its not a good idea to sign. Look at all the special interests backing the Republicans on this and you'll see who's calling the shots. That's why Baucus (the Dem) isn't voting because his biggest contributor to his campaigns have been MEDICAL special interests.
Those townhalls are nicely orchestrated events. I really enjoy watching morons outyell politicians and holding up birth certificates and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. That's a constructive way to have a discussion for sure. What clueless, Fox-puppeted jackoffs those fools on television screaming are, lol.
You dont' even under stand do you? ITS DOESN"T MATTER WHAT THE REPUBLICANS SAY!!!!!!!
they DO NOT have control....if the DEMS wanted to pass this bill they could. they don't need ONE republican vote. so this whole "the republicans are cockblocking it" doesn't even make sense. I know you ignored most of my post, I under stand you don't know how this work....its ok. but use some common sense.
Enough of this.
1: Just because they have the majority does not mean every bill put forward by democrats passes. Not every democrat agrees with every other one.
2: There aren't 60 democratic senators. There are 58 democrats and 2 independents. Granted, the independents have been voting with the dems on a lot.
3: Because of #1, certain things will be put into bills to try and appease republican senators to assure a pass.
If republicans have no purpose in the senate as you are proposing, why are they even showing up?
The Official God FAQ
9.8.6
Master rebators... cash for clunkers was funded to last for 90 days, it ran out of money after three days!
If this program works so well mayby it can be applied to Medicare.. instead of the GOP paying back all that money thet looted from those "lockboxes" (causing 1935 Social Security, the largest government program in the world that keeps nearly half the +65 year old US citizens out of poverty, to go bankrupt by 2016 & 2037 vs the pres bush2's "privatization scam")
President BH Obama "strongly opposes" privatization or raising the retirement age, but supports raising the cap on the payroll tax ($106,800 in 2009) to help fund the program. ref1
how about greenbacks for grannies, cash in those elderly parents that are such a drain on Medicare and use those funds to shoreup the Obamacare healthcare scam now pending before Congress.
Too bad for US automakers. It appears the stigma of US cars = low quality may be permanent. I drive a Benz E320 CDI, and I have yet to drive a domestic car that rides as smooth. Not even a Caddy offers the ride and luxury of Germany's finest...
They should have let them all crash and burn: A bad allocation of resources is a bad allocation of resources and the auto market is fairly competitive. There are other things the money could have gone to to create jobs, but obviously somebody had a stake in the companies..
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
SURPRISE!
FreedomWorks
FreedomWorks Orchestrates Grassroots Movements To Serve Dick Armeys Corporate Clients
Dick Armey is a ex-politician and now corporate lobbyist who RUNS FreedomWorks. He also works for DLA Piper, whose one client, Medicines Co., paid them 1.5 million. They generated $11 million in one year from their lobbying activities.
So, who do you think gave those people those pretty banners and brainwashed to sit there holding socialism signs? All that town hall stuff is fake; the people are mad but that's because those idiots got tricked by the big corporate suits, and have no idea what they are protesting.
If you can't connect the dots, I don't know what to say.
"TO MICHAEL!"
A conspiracy theory popinjay? I thought your kind was above that?
Maybe when you have cold-hard facts that every one of those people are willingly being deceptive then I will agree with you. However, you have as much grounds to call that a conspiracy as I do to call all the Health Care Reform supporters brainwashed and tricked by other self-interest lobby groups.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do me a favor. Next time you want to derail a different thread with your "Conspiracy-Nut" insults, try not to act so high-and-mighty, just a suggestion.
Dick Armey's organization fronted the Townyellers.
Dick Armey is employed by a lobbying firm that got over $1 million dollars to "represent their interest" along with other health concerns.
Dick Armey is a Republican ex-politician who's site encourages, posts and directs Townyellers to those meetings. Bus rides are organized as well.
Not a "theory" at all really.
That was a rebuttal to your buddy's post which derailed it.
"TO MICHAEL!"
One thing we have to realize is that America is not going to return to shopping mall; they are already too leveraged. The U.S. consumer is NOT going to bounce back. Somehow "green parachutes" will save us and we will all go back to consumption is at best far-fetched and at worst completely out of the question.
EDIT: And MY buying YOUR car --at least part of it-- ain't gonna make my air "greener" or YOUR economy better. You had to acquire debt to purchase it, or take it from a performing asset and divert it to the car industry.
Comity? Comedy.
Pay off to the UAW...next we will get 4500 for RVs,Motorcycles,Vacations,Sheds,2nd home at the beach.
They have borrower the money from China to make this happen.One step forward and 2 steps back.
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Chinese refuse to purchase long-term bonds now. And they want bonds whose interest rates adjust with inflation.
The U.S. has a printing press, and the Chinese having a printing press to keep up with the U.S. printing press, notwithstanding about 740 Billion in U.S. reserves. (Do not get me started on the grand bail-out that amounts to TRILLIONS).
We have a race of printing presses. Hence, the Chinese want off the dollar and are using the last bond to purchase: TIPS.
In my opinion, not only should they have limited purchases of American cars only, but they should've upped the MPG limit, and made people buy hybrid cars. I mean afterall, isn't this administration supposed to be all for going green and giving people green jobs?
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
In my opinion, not only should they have limited purchases of American cars only, but they should've upped the MPG limit, and made people buy hybrid cars. I mean afterall, isn't this administration supposed to be all for going green and giving people green jobs?
People would like to think so, but the evidence shows otherwise. As has already been said, there is no American auto restriction nor is their a stipulation that says it should be a eco-friendly car. What's the point, really? It might temporarily stimulate something, somewhere, but only for a short while.
As someone already said, "One step forward, two steps back." They'll blame it on the next administration once we see the effects in full.
IMO this program is an ongoing disaster for so many reasons, reasons which counter any of the purposes it was supposed to serve. If you ask me, this was partially to foster a fake improvement in the industry and partially to soothe certain political figures that complained about how the auto-bailout was handled.
What it has actually done is caused people to trash cars that could have been resold, and caused them to get further into debt. It also supports the green-gimmick BS that the auto-makers are tending, which just plain sucks. I bet you that this program did NOT support, but actually leaned away from people buying the older cars that had 30+ MPG. I bet you it did.
These people out buying cars do not even need a GD discount either. They were already going to do it, this is just even more of a boon for them.
I have a serious problem with tax money being given to people as coupons for brand-new gimmick cars.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
No one is "giving" anyone money.
What are you some kind of communist who believes all property belongs to the state?
They haven't given anyone anything, they are offering to take less from people. In fact, they will earn more taxes from this scheme than if they do nothing. Taking $3000 in sales tax not $5000 is better than taking $0.
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you a lot of countries have been doing this scheme including mine.
At the beginning of the scheme the pundits all said it was stupid and was only encouraging people to buy foreign motors.
Six months in they all love it.
A lot of people still fail to acknowledge this. Our economy CANNOT recover to the point we were at during the height of the housing bubble. I think people are still expecting it to. It won't happen. Well, it shouldn't happen. It's hard to rule anything out completely when we've set such a terrible precedent. However, if it does, prepare for great depression 2.0.
It cost 1 billion, and will cost 3 billion today. As I also said, people going out to participate in this were ALREADY going to buy new cars. You don't just up and lock yourself into 8-30k worth of debt in a recession/depression because you saw a coupon. Simply because you get a coupon for tampons in your email doesn't mean you that you will now buy a box of Tampax because they're cheaper today than yesterday.
And looking at it objectively, why does the auto-industry get coupons back by the government? Its totally random. Why not cigars?
The reality is that its a disgusting sham, if only for the fact that it supports the gimmick cars and is an appeasement. 3 billion to appease politicians. 3 billion dollars to people who were already well-to-do.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Nonsense.
It hasn't cost a penny.
If everyone who bought a car under this scheme was going to buy one anyway, and that is a big If as car sales have been falling for a long time now, (except in counties who have been operating this scheme for sometime, for them car sales are now rising),
If everyone who bought a car under this scheme was goining to have bought one anyway, it would still have cost zero pence.
Not $1 billion. Not $3 billion. Zero Billion.
They aren't getting any money from the government, they are just paying less.
Since I think the massive tax burden is a big part of the economic problems in the west, it doesn't strike me as bad when any sector of the economy receives a tax cut. Especially not when it is a struggling one.
And yes, tax breaks for cigars too please.
The only way I can agree with you that this scheme has cost the government any thing at all, is if you agree that all money belongs to the state and not the individual. Therefore anything that remains in the hands of the individual has been lost by the state. Under this philosophy It "costs" the government to allow you to keep what is yours.
That's communism mate. Are you a commie?
It cost 1 billion, and will cost 3 billion today. As I also said, people going out to participate in this were ALREADY going to buy new cars. You don't just up and lock yourself into 8-30k worth of debt in a recession/depression because you saw a coupon. Simply because you get a coupon for tampons in your email doesn't mean you that you will now buy a box of Tampax because they're cheaper today than yesterday.
Please tell me you don't really believe that.
The Official God FAQ
You underestimate Americans, declared. Where there's a will, there's a way. The U.S. consumer always bounces back. That's like saying that after the gas rationing days of "Odd/Even" license plates in the 1970's that when Americans finally came out of that hole, we wouldn't spend again.
You really think that in a capitalistic driven society like America where television is on 24 hours a day, a salesman like Billy Mays is given tributes, and where the largest private employer around is Walmart, that Americans are "spent out"? I've read your posts. You are much smarter than that.
I'm not sure what you are talking about in your EDIT when you say someone turning this in:
Won't make any difference than someone buying this with the rebate:
I honestly don't know if you're joking or not when you said that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/09/news/economy/cash_for_clunkers/index.htm?section=money_topstories
It cost 4 billion to set this up. It isn't even a tax break you idiot. They've taken 4 billion usd and started handing it out to people to buy new ones. Even as far as tax breaks are concerned, cars are at the bottom of the real priority list. Many states canceled school supply tax holidays, and have increased utility taxes like water, electricty, and even property.
"Sabian said: Please tell me you don't really believe that. "
Once more I will say that people who have bought cars under this program, were going to buy them anyway. Hell that is what half the people interviewed by the press outlets are actually saying. Want more proof? You only have to wait for up to 1 year to see what I am talking about. After this anomaly the sales will flatline beyond the explanation of the bad economy.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
It's a tax cut.
The governent takes 33%+ on every car sold. On these ones they take 33%-$3500 or 33%-$4500.
So unless the car you buy costs less than $10,500 or $13,500 the government still makes a profit on every car sold. It costs them nothing.
Less than nothing. They gain money from it.
It didn't cost $4 billion. It cost $0 billion. They are making money.
And I don't have to wait a year for my proof. They introduced this scheme a year ago in Germany. They introduced it 6 months ago here. I already know what the results are. Car sales are going up when previously they were going down.
Top vehicles purchased new and traded in under this program:
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1036/top-cash-for-clunkers-trade-ins-and-new-cars/
THE ENTIRE top ten being traded in are domestic makes, and all are either SUVs or vans.
6/10 of the vehicles being purchased are imports.
The funny thing about this program is that almost none of the vehicles being traded in are actually "clunkers" most are perfectly functional SUVs and minivans that are about 10 years old. Tremendous waste imo, since the vehicles are forbidden from resale. Think of the average working poor family that might all of a sudden been able to afford a perfectly decent used minivan/SUV.
This is something I don't understand. Oh wait, I do. This is to force people to buy up sitting inventory, and increase or stabilize the price of same, to make it look like the auto-bailout wasn't a failure. Kind of like how state governments are actually BURNING DOWN VACANT HOMES to reduce inventory instead of actually, ya know, selling or renting at lower prices.
And both of those paths are hopeless. All that has been accomplished is the wanton destruction of basic necessities that people desperately need and could put to use. But some people are SPITEFUL and would rather see those things TORCHED before actually selling at a loss to another person. If they can't reap massive profit, than no one can ever, ever have it. Its a "F%^& you!" to society.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/