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Do you think we will ever get a game with a truly massive game world?

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  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 725

    If the question is:

    How long will it be before computer generated content can satisfy most gamers expectations for huge worlds?

    Then my answer is 5 to 10 years. This includes intelligence to design fun terrains, puzzles, balanced scenarios and the technological hurdles of clients downloading the data as necessary.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by RamenThief7


    I don't mind a game that could take hours to travel from one place to the next if
    a) the scenery is beautiful
    b) there are occasional outposts where you can buy potions, look at player crafted items for sale, and the outposts are few and separated
    Especially point A. Back when I used to play Silkroad Online (do not play it, the game is extremely bot infested and has untrustworthy GMs), one thing I loved was the scenery inside the Western Asia area (I think that was the place). Beautiful mountains, rolling hills, rivers, a few trees...it was breath taking (and to add to the moment, I happened to be listening to soothing music at the time). If I could see beautiful sceneries on my journeys to different towns (while stopping at the next outpost), I wouldn't mind it at all if it took 2 hours to the next town. However, I need an option to put my character on cruise (character continuously runs in same direction until you command otherwise), I don't feel like holding down the up button or continuously clicking in the far background to move.



     

    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.

  • NicooNicoo Member UncommonPosts: 236
    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.

     

    image

  • RamenThief7RamenThief7 Member Posts: 362
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RamenThief7


    I don't mind a game that could take hours to travel from one place to the next if
    a) the scenery is beautiful
    b) there are occasional outposts where you can buy potions, look at player crafted items for sale, and the outposts are few and separated
    Especially point A. Back when I used to play Silkroad Online (do not play it, the game is extremely bot infested and has untrustworthy GMs), one thing I loved was the scenery inside the Western Asia area (I think that was the place). Beautiful mountains, rolling hills, rivers, a few trees...it was breath taking (and to add to the moment, I happened to be listening to soothing music at the time). If I could see beautiful sceneries on my journeys to different towns (while stopping at the next outpost), I wouldn't mind it at all if it took 2 hours to the next town. However, I need an option to put my character on cruise (character continuously runs in same direction until you command otherwise), I don't feel like holding down the up button or continuously clicking in the far background to move.



     

    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.

    Well, I am one to favor a decently long journey. I like to observe the beauty of the game. Developers spend thousands of dollars sometimes to make a game look good, and I make every single dollar they spent put to good use.

    Ah...if only I could experience another experience like that moment in Silkroad Online in the Western Asian area...

    Also, not like anything interesting doesn't happen. When I traveled further to see the river, I didn't expect those demonic monkey-look alikes....

    Edit Part: One interesting thing about Silkroad Online that drew me in was the job system. You could make money as either:

    1. Merchant: Buys caravan goods, travels to other towns on horse or camel (horse was faster, camel had more health and could store more caravan goods).

    2. Hunter: Protects merchants and gets paid a certain amount of money based off of the caravan good's total value. Also kills thieves and can receive massive rewards for killing a "wanted" status thief.

    3. Thieves: Kills merchants and steals caravan goods. Also has to deal with pesky hunters...

    Journey was a huge part of this system. Merchants had to travel to different towns to sell their goods (and the further the town was, the more money you made off the goods), hunters traveled with merchants, and us thieves either camped at key areas (example: ferries) or went on our own journey to rob merchants on the road. It was a good system...for a while. Then, the problems started to appear (GMs started lying, bots appeared in huge masses and crowded the servers, bots made it so that it was suicide to do any job unless you were a max level cap player).

    I wish I could see another system like this again. This made journey fun and worth while to do.

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462
    Originally posted by MikeJT


    I think if they were going to make a truly massive game world they would need to release it in stages.
    The first area might be as big as World of Warcraft's world, with tonnes of quests to participate in and plenty to do, and a decent reason for why you can't go into the other game world areas (perhaps there's military tensions between the areas with big blockades set up in choke points).
    Then as the game goes along, they could release new areas of the game world. The reason for doing this is because having a massive game world on release is a big risk. You need to have alot of expense in programming and design and huge investment in server infrastructure for all players to be able to play all over the game world. Furthermore, you have the problem of having your starting subscribers being too spread out, so they won't get the whole MMO feel either.
    By releasing the game region by region, you essentially limit your risk - if subscriber numbers are too low, you can hold off the release of the next region and focus your development on adding content to the first region. If subscriber numbers skyrocket, then you can focus development resources on perfecting the next section of the game for release. Staged release gives the developers inherent options that they otherwise wouldn't have, and those options increase the total worth of project, making it easier to attract investors.

    Absolutely agree with this post. The only downside could be that some of the older regions become deserted as the "main group", or essentially the first crop of subs, moves on to all the new content. Still, if the game is good it'll get a steady influx of new players that can populate the first regions. The trick is to make sure that people are occupied long enough in the first regions to have time to develop and polish the new regions as you make them available.

    image

  • Cyborg99Cyborg99 Member Posts: 576
    Originally posted by nariusseldon




     
    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.



     

    Well if you don't want scenary then play a web/text-based mmo. I want some leet gfx in my games, you prolly just can't afford good hardware

    Trolls = Hardcore
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    The only posts I read in threads are my own.

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
    Originally posted by Cyborg99

    Originally posted by nariusseldon




     
    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.



     

    Well if you don't want scenary then play a web/text-based mmo. I want some leet gfx in my games, you prolly just can't afford good hardware



     

    Lol Love post like this, where common sense is put to the way side.

    Well if you where designing a game then. "We would just have blocks instead of people, and blocks instead of armor, and blocks instead of wepons" we could just disregaurd the AH all togeather, and the map could be the size of your moms house. and that way we dont' have to travel!!!! yay...

     

     

    Alot of people around here say they don't like "larg worlds, cool graphics, player housing, un-needed magic, and leet geer to make you feel cool" but in all honesty......take all that away and you have a pile of crap....steaming...nasty crap.

    All of those things arn't needed for the "combat" but you forget we play mmoRPGs and it adds more detail and its more fun to play with all of that stuff.

    all of these people who say they don't like this or that just because it doesn't get them fighting in 30 seconds piss me off. I want a good RPG not some FPS that looks like a mmorpg...

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
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  • matthewf978matthewf978 Member Posts: 287

    Some games have achieved a truly massive world by my standards. However, the world is often shrunk down so much by fast-leveling guides and other resources. It is unfortunate that people who want to compete will be forced to cheat. In short, if you want to be surprised, don't do Internet research or ask to be led through the wilderness. There is no wrong way to play and have fun. Happy hunting.

  • KenaoshiKenaoshi Member UncommonPosts: 1,022

    in 20 years :)

    now: GW2 (11 80s).
    Dark Souls 2.
    future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
    "Bro, do your even fractal?"
    Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  • RamenThief7RamenThief7 Member Posts: 362
    Originally posted by Kenaoshi


    in 20 years :)

     

    True Fact: Scientists and game developers believe that somewhere around 2020-2030, virtual reality gaming will, well, become a reality. I can only imagine what a massive game world would be like to explore in "first person."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Cyborg99

    Originally posted by nariusseldon




     
    I don't play MMOs to look at scenary. If I want just to look at scenary ... i will buy a postcard. I won't play a game that i have to waste hours and hours in travelling. Travelling should be fast .. get to where the action is.



     

    Well if you don't want scenary then play a web/text-based mmo. I want some leet gfx in my games, you prolly just can't afford good hardware



     

    LOL .. i play MMO to kill stuff, you can kill stuff good without graphics, can you? Spell animation, attack graphics, mobs .....

    And i run all my MMOs on high. I just don't play them to look at world scenary. Graphics is important.

    It is silly to equate scenary to graphics. There a lot more graphics is showing than just travel scenary.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Dewm


     
    all of these people who say they don't like this or that just because it doesn't get them fighting in 30 seconds piss me off. I want a good RPG not some FPS that looks like a mmorpg...



     

    Sure. Be piss off. It is not like we care.

    It is silly to take time to travel from point A to point B again and again once  i have done it a few times.

  • zantaxzantax Member Posts: 254

    All I can say to the OP is just like a few others here, Asherons Call is the world you want to be in.  Nothing is instanced, if you run from one end of the map to the other end of the map without useing portals not one time do you see a "Loading" screen or a zone change.  When you see a mountain or a landmark in the distance you actually could run directly to it for the most part.  You had to make your way around natural landscape like to steep of hills, and of course spawns.  For its time the graphics were great by todays standards they are very very dated, but the landscape is amazing even by todays standards.  I think what makes it amazing is the random spawns that you encounter.  Anyway that is getting off topic, the time it would take you to run from the east to the west coast would probably be around an hour if you didn't stop to fight or use a portal, the same thing goes for south to north but it would probably be about 1.5 hours, again if you don't fight and you don't use portals.  Now you have to remember that in order to do something like that you would need to plan your route so you can navigate through the mountains and the valleys so you have no pause time to find a way out of a valley.  Not to mention dodging some pretty heafty spawns while travelling, like running into a Diamond Lord or a pack of Tuskers.  By far the best open world free roam MMORPG I have ever played.



    As for EVE, yea you can fly from one place to another without warping, but there is nothing in between.  NO random spawns and if there are it is a complete chance you run into one, not even good scenary for the trip.  That is why eve isn't the largest game world, there is nothing going on in space like on the ground on a world MMORPG.

  • LordDmasterLordDmaster Member UncommonPosts: 130

    Now I see the problem with the New gamers of today. Most of them don't want to wait for anything. Example "I have only 2 hours to play", "I do not want to take time traveling to a place.", "I do not have the time to raid for my Epic gear, just give it to me/ sell it to me/ power level me.", "Don't kill me and take my stuff, it took me two hours , days, weeks to get it.", " I don't want a story in my MMORPG that takes time to read.", "Don't make me read my quests, that takes time.", "Give me a marker to look at on my mini map so I can find the item I need for my quest.(less time to do quest)". I think that sums it up. If I forgot one, sorry. You should get the point.

    …..it’s a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: “It’s a Game”.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by LordDmaster


    Now I see the problem with the New gamers of today. Most of them don't want to wait for anything. Example "I have only 2 hours to play", "I do not want to take time traveling to a place.", "I do not have the time to raid for my Epic gear, just give it to me/ sell it to me/ power level me.", "Don't kill me and take my stuff, it took me two hours , days, weeks to get it.", " I don't want a story in my MMORPG that takes time to read.", "Don't make me read my quests, that takes time.", "Give me a marker to look at on my mini map so I can find the item I need for my quest.(less time to do quest)". I think that sums it up. If I forgot one, sorry. You should get the point.



     

    What is problem? Just facts of life. Of course we don't want to wait. It is entertainment. It is not just any of it is real.

    And I DO only have 2 hrs a night to play and so I am mightily grateful that modern MMOs have instances that can be run in that amount of time. And do I really want to take that 2 hrs and spend half of it running to the dungeon ... NO.

  • PonicoPonico Member UncommonPosts: 650

    Vanguard had a pretty huge enviroment to explore. I took me 4 hours to get to one end of the continent to another... ok, I had to fight a lot and such but still... EVE is huge... Mankind Online (1998 MMO) had 900 billion planets that you could visit. That was pretty big.





     

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  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Derol


    There is a game like that already out. It is called Asheron's Call. It is huge. Alot of dungeons in the middle of nowhere.

     

    Asheron's Call is dead.  They patched it into an equipment treadmill and a grindfest.

  • ScottcScottc Member Posts: 680
    Originally posted by Sigilaea


    Technology is still not advanced enough to make this fluid for really large crowds. The problem is the millions of triangles and their respective textures that have to fit into your RAM. When a person walks by, everything they are wearing has to be rendered and re-rendered, a long with everyone else running around. And then their is removal of meshes/textures that are blocked because someone/something is between you and that object...and then reflections have to be calculated, shadows, stencil shaders, lighting transforms,  etc...
    They can't store all of that on the hard drive and then load it when a person walks by, because that takes too long. They have to cram as much as possible into video RAM  and your system RAM so that it can be accessed lightning quick.
    Now multiply all of this times thousands of players moving among each other. Anarchy Online attempted this in 2001. At their height, I believe they said they had 50,000 subs on one server. They had to go back and add sliders to the UI that let you turn off people who were within a certain distance from you. Otherwise, you lagged out or had to stare at the ground, just to walk.

    You have no idea how wrong you are.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Samuraisword


    I enjoy lengthy realistic travel times. More to see, more opportunity to meet new people.



     

    I don't. It seems extremely boring. I play RPG to hack & slash & loot, not to walk around.

    Plus, once you walk a path once, the second time would be unbearable boring. Plus, it is easier to have cities/quest hubs to meet people in. It would be worse if I have to stop my long trek somewhere to talk to people.



     

    Attitudes like this are why recent MMO's lack depth.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,372

    I wish there was a game that was that massive.

    I've often thought of Eve Online styled game with a big universe. 

    But picture one where it could take potentially 48+ hours real time to traverse the entirety of it.  Also one where there were goods on one end of the universe taht were perhaps in demand on the opposite end.  All the fun that could be had of building up relationships to trade goods you gathered together yourself and send across the universe to some other player you may never see face to face.

    Of course it would be full of competitors, pirates, aliens and who knows what else.  Vast and nearly impossible to explore it all.  That would be fun to me.

    image
  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by Sigilaea


    Technology is still not advanced enough to make this fluid for really large crowds. The problem is the millions of triangles and their respective textures that have to fit into your RAM. When a person walks by, everything they are wearing has to be rendered and re-rendered, a long with everyone else running around. And then their is removal of meshes/textures that are blocked because someone/something is between you and that object...and then reflections have to be calculated, shadows, stencil shaders, lighting transforms,  etc...
    They can't store all of that on the hard drive and then load it when a person walks by, because that takes too long. They have to cram as much as possible into video RAM  and your system RAM so that it can be accessed lightning quick.
    Now multiply all of this times thousands of players moving among each other. Anarchy Online attempted this in 2001. At their height, I believe they said they had 50,000 subs on one server. They had to go back and add sliders to the UI that let you turn off people who were within a certain distance from you. Otherwise, you lagged out or had to stare at the ground, just to walk.

     

    What you describe is clientside issues which are global across any game. This has nothing to do with MMOs per se

    A large virtual world- your concern as a MMO developer is server side load. For instance, if you have 50,000 players in one section and they are all shouting. This is server side / network strain.

     

    Things like textures and triangles and terrain- thats all 'client side'. Its just data streamed from your local hard drive. Has nothing to do with the server at all. The server doesnt ofc replicate entire worlds to you everytime you go to a dungeon. Perhaps you might get the content from the server on the first visit (ala guild wars) but subsequent visits will stream of your hard drive

  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey


    I wish there was a game that was that massive.
    I've often thought of Eve Online styled game with a big universe. 
    But picture one where it could take potentially 48+ hours real time to traverse the entirety of it.  Also one where there were goods on one end of the universe taht were perhaps in demand on the opposite end.  All the fun that could be had of building up relationships to trade goods you gathered together yourself and send across the universe to some other player you may never see face to face.
    Of course it would be full of competitors, pirates, aliens and who knows what else.  Vast and nearly impossible to explore it all.  That would be fun to me.

     

    same here. Wpould be stressful though to make a 40+ hour journey only to get robbed 30 mins away from the destination lol

  • jerlot65jerlot65 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Originally posted by jusomdude


    SWG has quite a lot of terrain to travel, the problem is, that most of it is boring as hell. I prefer small interesting game space opposed to massive boring game space.
     
    It would be awesome if developers could actually make a large interesting world though. Although, a problem with making many landmarks/static buildings/dungeons/etc, is that it leaves no room for player buildings, assuming the game has them.



     

    Ya, SWG had tons of terrain and it was moslty barren and boring. But I think initally they were hoping for players to eventually be able to build bases all over the planets.  But alas, dem devs dun blew the game up....

    image
  • GreenChaosGreenChaos Member Posts: 2,268

     

    You guys are thinking too small.  Forget about big land with nothing but trees and huts.  Try a big city.  But not one of these fake building cities.  But one where every room in every building can be entered.



    And you can do want you think you can do in each building.  In a restaurant, sit down and eat.  Laundromat, wash your clothes.



    And the NPCs are not just random.  Spy on one at work and he/she will eventual leave, go out, go home, go to sleep.

     

    Think sims meets sim city meets GTA. This would be great for a cops and robbers game.

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914

    I would like to see a modern day-based MMO game with realistic travel and distance.

    Like maybe LA, or NYC or something to start with.  Of course, there would need to be a reason to travel, and the way the current MMO games are developed I just don't see it being an option.

    Unless some design genius comes up with a game mechanic that gives the players a meaninful reason to travel the same paths it would never work.

    I'll give an example of a bad game design with realistic travel:

    You get a mission from your HQ in DC to go to NYC looking for Mr. Smith.  You hop in your car, and 5 hours later you arrive in the city.  BORING!  No one is going to do this, MAYBE once, but there is no way the players are going to repeatedly participate in this type of travel.

    Now, good game design with realistic travel:

    Same scenario, you get a mission from HQ to go to NYC.  You hop in your car and 20 minutes later stop to pick up some food from a diner.  While at the diner you over hear a truck driver talking about the XYZ Orginization that you are currently investigating.  So you decide to follow the truck driver.  He's heading north.  After about 10 minutes of following him he realizes you are tailing him and takes off.  Causing a high speed chase to start up.

    You radio the local police department and they join in the chase. 

    Down the road the truck hits some spike strips and flips.  The driver lives and you arrest him.  The driver gets taken into custody at the local police station in Podunk town.  You search the truck and find a weapons stash.  The person you were going to NYC to investigate is supposed to be a weapons buyer for a foreign government.

    So you decide to pose as the driver and take the shipment into the city.  But only after interrogating the driver to find out when the shipment was supposed to be delivered and to who.  Now who's the weapons buyer?  Another player.

    You could even thrown in someone attacking the truck a few hours later and having to deal with that scenario as well.

    -----------------------------------------

    Basically the only way I can see a massive world with realistic travel working is if there is some type of dynamic mission system that allows your character to interfere with the going-ons of the NPCs.  Instead of just having them wait around for your character to get there.  I'm not sure if there is a development studio with enough time/know-how/technological prowess to design a game like this.

    But it would be neat!

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

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