Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them. It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever. Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
That is just your opinion, and I strongly disagree. Some of the most exciting times I had in Everquest was trying to get my corpse without getting killed again. Especially in the gnoll caves outside of Qeynos. That was heart pounding. THAT is the very sort of thing that got me hooked.
And that just YOUR opinion, and I strongly disagree. Corpse run is one of the dumbest, most frustrating thing which ADD nothing to the challenge. Challenge is a boss that is difficult to kill. Frustration is when you add grinding BECAUSE you are killed.
WOW hardmode is challenging. Sunwell is challenging. Adding big death penalty will just prevent people from trying, and thus reducing the fun.
A corpse run or some meaningful death penalty is needed to keep the players honest. What makes getting to the new area fun and exciting if not the chance of some kind of penalty other than a respawning area and a few silver for repairs? You should fear death not just respawn, repair and do it again. Im not one for , losing everything you have and being left naked but something that stings a bit is a good thing.
Those were the first 3d MMO's to my knowledge and for many the first of any MMO. I think that becuase it was a first you can never have the same feeling again.
Until there is a entirely new type of genre that hasn't been thought of yet all MMOs will always be just another MMO. Yeah some will be better then other and some people will prefer one over another but none will stand out as much as the first few.
I will say that in my opinion the options back then FOR THIER TIME were better then anything out today.
Maybe it will take another 10 years but something compeltely new will eventually come out and revolitionize the online gaming scene.
I am still waiting for a game that comes up with a way of implanting your face on you characted, can't be that hard. I don't think one has done direction sound for voice chat either that is ingame. Would be pretty cool to run around and here people talking as you get closer and less and less the farther away, would make it feel ALIVE.
Originally posted by nariusseldonWOW hardmode is challenging. Sunwell is challenging. Adding big death penalty will just prevent people from trying, and thus reducing the fun.
End thread. I think this provides enough of an agree-to-disagree situation. People have different desires in a game, and some just want to log in and press buttons. Others want to deal with (arguably) more "challenging" situations. I used to be the latter, but life is getting busier and sometimes I may just want to log in to a silly cartoon game and beat some stuff up and log off. Eve's politics are great but I don't want to feel guilty if I don't log in for a week because I was supposed to set up some hauling program for the corp anymore. This was fun, now I may be too busy. While I laugh at any sentence with 'World of Warcraft' and 'challenging' in it, maybe it is valid that some people with less time for mmos (possibly me) would want something simpler. I mean not Aion simple but EQ2 simple, maybe. Its the only reason I can find for people who have played expansive MMOs to prefer the console model used today. At least its the only reason I would prefer it.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Originally posted by nariusseldonWOW hardmode is challenging. Sunwell is challenging. Adding big death penalty will just prevent people from trying, and thus reducing the fun.
End thread. I think this provides enough of an agree-to-disagree situation. People have different desires in a game, and some just want to log in and press buttons. Others want to deal with (arguably) more "challenging" situations. I used to be the latter, but life is getting busier and sometimes I may just want to log in to a silly cartoon game and beat some stuff up and log off. Eve's politics are great but I don't want to feel guilty if I don't log in for a week because I was supposed to set up some hauling program for the corp anymore. This was fun, now I may be too busy. While I laugh at any sentence with 'World of Warcraft' and 'challenging' in it, maybe it is valid that some people with less time for mmos (possibly me) would want something simpler. I mean not Aion simple but EQ2 simple, maybe. Its the only reason I can find for people who have played expansive MMOs to prefer the console model used today. At least its the only reason I would prefer it.
Thats fine and dandy if thats what you want, but what about the others who want a more demanding PvE game? We dont have anything new to play yet there is a large player base that desires that.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
The last 2 don't even make any sense.
This 28 survey was off a limited number of people who went out of there way to fill out an online survey about wow. So the survey says more explicitly: Out of the people in WoW and the Barrens who have the attention span/desire to fill out an online survey with no sweet loot giveaway, the average age was 28.
I don't think you have to play many other MMOs to find that WoW's community is relatively immature. Not that WoW players are, but comparing to any other P2P game, WoW gets a lot of "g2g mom yelling at me, thx 4 loot."
That is based on a survey of over 10 games with one subject.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
The last 2 don't even make any sense.
This 28 survey was off a limited number of people who went out of there way to fill out an online survey about wow. So the survey says more explicitly: Out of the people in WoW and the Barrens who have the attention span/desire to fill out an online survey with no sweet loot giveaway, the average age was 28.
I don't think you have to play many other MMOs to find that WoW's community is relatively immature. Not that WoW players are, but comparing to any other P2P game, WoW gets a lot of "g2g mom yelling at me, thx 4 loot."
That is based on a survey of over 10 games with one subject.
If you have a survey with a more accurate number of the age of WoW players, i'd gladly see it.
I have played plenty of other MMORPGs and found WoW's community not to be significantly more immature than other games. Also, if it were to have more children that would simply be because WoW is so popular, not because the game is built for children. I'm pretty sure that if you removed all people below 18 from the game, WoW's subscriber base would still dwarf that of other mmorpgs.
What do corpse runs and full loot PvP have to do with being "safe" or having mobs kill you? All you need to make a challenge in any game is play outside of the game's own rule set. If you are level 1 and level 1 mobs are too easy go kill level 3 mobs. Solo a dungeon. Make it to a certain level without dying, etc, etc.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
100%
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Every relevant guild in the game is 16 or 18 years old minimum age, so just associate yourself with the right people. There are guilds for kids just the same way that there are guilds for adults. These groups are segregated; other than buying and selling items, or the AH, I have never once played extensively with someone who was under 16. Even in PUGs.
"Adults" are the immature ones for caring so much, just shut up and play.
Every relevant guild in the game is 16 or 18 years old minimum age, so just associate yourself with the right people. There are guilds for kids just the same way that there are guilds for adults. These groups are segregated; other than buying and selling items, or the AH, I have never once played extensively with someone who was under 16. Even in PUGs.
"Adults" are the immature ones for caring so much, just shut up and play.
Oh yeah, didn't mean to say only the young or mentally young play the game, just that the games nature seems to attract more of them (not to mention, as GameLoading said, its popularity). I was shocked the first 3 times PUGs were dropped because people got their loot and had better stuff to do.
But yeah, not really arguing anything about WoW just bored and challenging some survey reliability while I wait.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
If the average age of a WOW player is 28, then I have to say that there are way too many immature people out there in their late 20's. Now I am in my late 20's and played WOW for a few years before I quit last year, so I was in this demographic. But I have to say, at the maturity lvl of a 6 year old with ADHD most players of WoW are scarely infantile.
We started a guild in WoW to keep these 28 year old kids from spamming us with guild and group invites. When I first started WoW, just after release the players were, on the average, respectful and dare I say mature. As the game grew in popularity the maturity level of its players declined in almost equal proportions. AoC and Lotro are very different from what I saw in WoW. The maturity level of these games is leaps and bounds beyond that of WoW. I believe that is because games like WoW have become too popular for their own good, with each expansion the game draws more and more new players that want instant gratification, more players that want end game now rather than later. I personally enjoy the leveling process, you learn your character, you learn the tweaks and perks of your class. With each expansion blizzard made their game easier and their players less skilled, and the more mature players wanting a bit of a challenge left to find greener pastures. Now I have to say, I loved WoW, I had 4 70's when I quit, it was fun and entertaining, it was everything I wanted in a game, but even before the first expansion it was declining. We saw its ultimate demise for our guild when they lowered the leveling requirements and made lvl 20 possible in a single evening of game play, and people were joining PUGs in Outlands with 3 weeks experience under their belt and blaming their inability to do anything on everything except their lack of knowledge of the game.
I love MMORPG's, I will continue to play them, but I will always search for the game that gives me a challenge, a game that sets the bar a little higher for its players. A game that, if its average player is 28 years old, treats them like the adults they are and expects them to be able to play a game without throwing a tantrum when they don't get their Happy Meals.
Although this debate is a valid one, we need to be careful using language like "dumbed down" or insulting those who play contemporary popular mmorpgs as somehow instant gratification, shallow, kiddies with no imagination. Because that is just eltist BS and adds nothing to the debate. A bit of history: 1. The study or enjoyment of English Literature was once considered dumb, of mass appeal and a sign of the decline of the proper "elite" intellectual who studied latin and the classics and it took ages before the first Eng. Lit dept was formed at University level in the modern world because of this prejudice. 2. The study of cinema was once considered dumb, of mass appeal and a sign of the decline of proper inmtellectualism, which was based on written word fiction. 3. The study of genre fiction and genre movies was once considered dumb, of mass appeal and a sign of the decline of "proper" art, which was based upon literary fiction and art movies. ETC and so on. But here we find the same ridiculous logic, but for games LOL. Games are the definition of mass entertainment and yet here again we have a group wanting to carve out some "elite" clique within that; utterly crass. On a related note, you know the same thing was done in literature btw; the idea of "literary" fiction was in effect created by publishers to sell an idea of superior fiction (as opposed to genre fiction) to idiots who think that reading such fiction makes them elite or more cultured than the dude reading Stephen King. Difference is, this was done by publishers to corner a market; while here, it just some people with delusions of gaming grandeur. Grow up and chill out. Fair, talk about the game mechanics or the play style, but please dont talk in a self-superior eltist way because it just makes u look unintelligent and silly. I love WOW, and I've played most other games and currently play Fallen Earth as my alt game and it bears no relation to do with the quality of my intellect, my ability to persevere, my imagination or my skill at games; it is just what I like to play when I aint reading books. watching films or working. Regards Melmoth ed for spelling
Literature has been dumbed down... look at the current best sellers
cinema has been dumbed down look at yahoo movies.
Besides you love WOW a dumbed down game...
Are you saying mmorpg should be dumbed down to show they are evolving?
It seems you misinterpret challenge for intellect... As you said you love wow, you gain satisfaction from playing a dumbed down game, thats your game style. At times I play BF2 for its simple game play.
....
LOL .. WOW is dumbed down? I would call any game with mechanics so complex that you need optimization software to maximize dps "dumb down".
Yes, WOW is dumbed down. Game mechanics are behind the scene. The game is dumb down and made for a preteen's.
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
What do corpse runs and full loot PvP have to do with being "safe" or having mobs kill you? All you need to make a challenge in any game is play outside of the game's own rule set. If you are level 1 and level 1 mobs are too easy go kill level 3 mobs. Solo a dungeon. Make it to a certain level without dying, etc, etc.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyable.
Originally posted by ray12kas I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Amen. I have always used the Wal-Mart analogy, but this works.
Challenging vs easy is not the best way to look at things, because MMORPGs have never really been challenging (aside from PvP). With simple, predictable AI the only thing you've ever had to do in an MMO is learn your classes skills and when to use them. Thats it. Increasing the size of encounters might seem more challenging, but in that case youre really just trying to wrestle every one into performing their basic task.
Dangerous vs safe would be more accurate. Olders MMOs could be fairly dangerous and punishing. If you went some where out of your level range there was a very real chance of death and loss. In newer MMOs, it seems much easier to get out of most situations and, if you do die, the penalty is too small to even worry about. Is this better? Well, it can be less annoying, but its also much less exciting.
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Both AC and UO also had either areas with go kill XX quests or they had very little quests in general. You can't expect deep quests and also have a big quantity of them.
I said that gear was a contributing factor, not the only factor. There have been many famous WoW players back when I played that were well known for their pvp abilities. No matter how much you want to spin it, pvp in mmorpgs like WoW still has player skill as a contributing factor, it just isn't the only one because surprise, it's an RPG. Not a Shooter or a Fighting game.
Aion isn't a crap game at all, it's actually a really good game. Just because it isn't Counter Strike online doesn't make it a bad game. There are also some clearly noticable differences between WoW and Aion.
McDonalds has actually some pretty decent fast food. To say MCD's is for people who don't know any better is laughable, because people NEVER EVER eat anything else besides MCdonalds food, right?
What do you really want to discuss here, WoW or MCdonalds? My point was to prove the WoW - MCdonalds anology is flawed.
It's been 10 years since the release of Ultima: Online, back in good old 2009 we would have thought that by now games would be on such a level classics like Ultima, Asherons Call, and Everquest, would pale in comparison. However it is now 2009, and most gamers who have played MMO's for any period of time would agree that nothing on the market today can even live up to these original releases. Nostalgia aside, when critically examining these games, it appears as though with each new release the games are being dumbed down; It reminds me alot of the Mike Judge movie: Idiocracy where overtime people became dumber and dumber as technology allowed them more and more luxeries. What I have been wondering is why no games with depth and challenge have been introduced to the market since 2003; The closest we have come is darkfall (don't get me started on that tangent) and in many ways I don't even feel as though, it has lived up to it's potential. Am I the only one who feels like this? Is that why there are no more deep challenging games on the market? What do you guys think?
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Both AC and UO also had either areas with go kill XX quests or they had very little quests in general. You can't expect deep quests and also have a big quantity of them.
I said that gear was a contributing factor, not the only factor. There have been many famous WoW players back when I played that were well known for their pvp abilities. No matter how much you want to spin it, pvp in mmorpgs like WoW still has player skill as a contributing factor, it just isn't the only one because surprise, it's an RPG. Not a Shooter or a Fighting game.
Aion isn't a crap game at all, it's actually a really good game. Just because it isn't Counter Strike online doesn't make it a bad game. There are also some clearly noticable differences between WoW and Aion.
McDonalds has actually some pretty decent fast food. To say MCD's is for people who don't know any better is laughable, because people NEVER EVER eat anything else besides MCdonalds food, right?
What do you really want to discuss here, WoW or MCdonalds? My point was to prove the WoW - MCdonalds anology is flawed.
Your dead wrong about AC, lol so the rest of your points have no merrit.
Yes, MCD's is for people who do not know any better such as you it seems or thouse who can not afford proper food which might be you, as well
To be honest your views are the kind that have been killing the mmorpg community. You will attach yourself to what ever crap they fill in a bun and call it yummy.
WOW and PVP do not go together, WOW was made for warcraft fans. It is not a solid game nor will it ever be.
Originally posted by ray12k Your dead wrong about AC, lol so the rest of your points have no merrit. Yes, MCD's is for people who do not know any better such as you it seems or thouse who can not afford proper food which might be you, as well To be honest your views are the kind that have been killing the mmorpg community. You will attach yourself to what ever crap they fill in a bun and call it yummy. WOW and PVP do not go together, WOW was made for warcraft fans. It is not a solid game nor will it ever be. You are an IDIOt.
You make no sense whatsoever. Do you honnestly believe that people who eat at MCdonalds never ate anything else or can't afford it? I wonder what loops of logic you had to jump through to get to that conclussion.
I'm the one who has been killing the mmorpg community? Actually I'm not nor do I attach myself to crap. I play games I enjoy and sorry to inform you but that isn't Counterstrike Online. You know who have been killing the mmorpg community? People like you have.
Just listen to yourself. You're implying I'm poor and can't afford proper food and call me an idiot simply for having a different opinion than you and it's me who is "killing" the mmorpg community?
WoW has always been a solid game. There is a good reason why it's so popular and received so much critical praise.
I got involved in mmos because of the complexity of the genre. Today's mmos are more about the fighting and the graphics. Thus for me my dislike of the current mmo crop has nothing to do with nostalgia. I just think the vast majority of mmos are dumbed down, and have very little to interest me. I realize I am in the minority, but I do firmly believe that you can create a good polished game with high level of complexity that can appeal to the masses.
Why don't you just start the post with the name of the person you are disagree with. He/She will know what you are talking about without that huge quote.
This would be about 1/3 the pages without them and much easier to read.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable
Give me those annoyances give me something that makes me watch my back and fear death, give me a set back if I die, punish me for failing. Make me work for something in a game. I want it to be a game again and not an interactive chat room. Seriously man, do you enjoy a game where you have to aggro six or seven mobs just to get hurt, where you have to work to die? why play? where is the rush you should get from fighting? Where is the fun in being a bully to weak mobs?
In most cases if you can do quests in a zone there are very few mobs in that zone that can surprise, respawn or step up on you and have a hope in hell of killing you. Your right the skill needed to play most MMOs is slight and if you have half a brain and know your character these games present very little that can be remotely challenging. They go from easy to impossible with nothing in between that makes you hold your breath or pucker your butt. As far as challenging, I don't care if I have to fight one or a dozen, I want them to be able to kill me if I don't play my character right. I want the game to force me into these difficult positions that I might not survive. As was stated in an earlier post, right now to make most games interesting you have to play outside of the games intentions.
In short I want a MMORPG that presents a challenging factor just shy of Ninja Gaiden 2, I want a game that makes leveling fun again and not just a means to an end.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable
Give me those annoyances give me something that makes me watch my back and fear death, give me a set back if I die, punish me for failing. Make me work for something in a game. I want it to be a game again and not an interactive chat room. Seriously man, do you enjoy a game where you have to aggro six or seven mobs just to get hurt, where you have to work to die? why play? where is the rush you should get from fighting? Where is the fun in being a bully to weak mobs?
In most cases if you can do quests in a zone there are very few mobs in that zone that can surprise, respawn or step up on you and have a hope in hell of killing you. Your right the skill needed to play most MMOs is slight and if you have half a brain and know your character these games present very little that can be remotely challenging. They go from easy to impossible with nothing in between that makes you hold your breath or pucker your butt. As far as challenging, I don't care if I have to fight one or a dozen, I want them to be able to kill me if I don't play my character right. I want the game to force me into these difficult positions that I might not survive. As was stated in an earlier post, right now to make most games interesting you have to play outside of the games intentions.
In short I want a MMORPG that presents a challenging factor just shy of Ninja Gaiden 2, I want a game that makes leveling fun again and not just a means to an end.
Thank you Darq
FYI
"The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."
"dead": do you mean "death"
Most adults learn not to be frustrated. O and to help from being frustrated, stop dying.
" I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."
And yes sir, "you don't see" has been the problem with this toppic and forum from the beginning.
I play chess because I learn from it, or should I say I learn from my opponent. If my opponent plays well and makes me think, that makes the game more enjoyable. If I lose in a game of chess, I learn from it and that also makes the game more enjoyable. When I loss, that is telling me that I'm playing a opponent that is equiel to me in ability, and I need to slow down and THINK.
So what are you telling us about your abilitys? That you don't like to slow down? That you don't need to think? Or slowing down and thinking is not enjoyable to you? Winning is the only enjoyment that you receive from playing OLGs? That the games being made are hard to you already? That you don't learn from being frusted? Or is it that you simply do not "SEE" how easy online games have become?
PLease let use know, maybe we can help you understand!
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Comments
That is just your opinion, and I strongly disagree. Some of the most exciting times I had in Everquest was trying to get my corpse without getting killed again. Especially in the gnoll caves outside of Qeynos. That was heart pounding. THAT is the very sort of thing that got me hooked.
And that just YOUR opinion, and I strongly disagree. Corpse run is one of the dumbest, most frustrating thing which ADD nothing to the challenge. Challenge is a boss that is difficult to kill. Frustration is when you add grinding BECAUSE you are killed.
WOW hardmode is challenging. Sunwell is challenging. Adding big death penalty will just prevent people from trying, and thus reducing the fun.
A corpse run or some meaningful death penalty is needed to keep the players honest. What makes getting to the new area fun and exciting if not the chance of some kind of penalty other than a respawning area and a few silver for repairs? You should fear death not just respawn, repair and do it again. Im not one for , losing everything you have and being left naked but something that stings a bit is a good thing.
Those were the first 3d MMO's to my knowledge and for many the first of any MMO. I think that becuase it was a first you can never have the same feeling again.
Until there is a entirely new type of genre that hasn't been thought of yet all MMOs will always be just another MMO. Yeah some will be better then other and some people will prefer one over another but none will stand out as much as the first few.
I will say that in my opinion the options back then FOR THIER TIME were better then anything out today.
Maybe it will take another 10 years but something compeltely new will eventually come out and revolitionize the online gaming scene.
I am still waiting for a game that comes up with a way of implanting your face on you characted, can't be that hard. I don't think one has done direction sound for voice chat either that is ingame. Would be pretty cool to run around and here people talking as you get closer and less and less the farther away, would make it feel ALIVE.
End thread. I think this provides enough of an agree-to-disagree situation. People have different desires in a game, and some just want to log in and press buttons. Others want to deal with (arguably) more "challenging" situations. I used to be the latter, but life is getting busier and sometimes I may just want to log in to a silly cartoon game and beat some stuff up and log off. Eve's politics are great but I don't want to feel guilty if I don't log in for a week because I was supposed to set up some hauling program for the corp anymore. This was fun, now I may be too busy. While I laugh at any sentence with 'World of Warcraft' and 'challenging' in it, maybe it is valid that some people with less time for mmos (possibly me) would want something simpler. I mean not Aion simple but EQ2 simple, maybe. Its the only reason I can find for people who have played expansive MMOs to prefer the console model used today. At least its the only reason I would prefer it.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
End thread. I think this provides enough of an agree-to-disagree situation. People have different desires in a game, and some just want to log in and press buttons. Others want to deal with (arguably) more "challenging" situations. I used to be the latter, but life is getting busier and sometimes I may just want to log in to a silly cartoon game and beat some stuff up and log off. Eve's politics are great but I don't want to feel guilty if I don't log in for a week because I was supposed to set up some hauling program for the corp anymore. This was fun, now I may be too busy. While I laugh at any sentence with 'World of Warcraft' and 'challenging' in it, maybe it is valid that some people with less time for mmos (possibly me) would want something simpler. I mean not Aion simple but EQ2 simple, maybe. Its the only reason I can find for people who have played expansive MMOs to prefer the console model used today. At least its the only reason I would prefer it.
Thats fine and dandy if thats what you want, but what about the others who want a more demanding PvE game? We dont have anything new to play yet there is a large player base that desires that.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
The last 2 don't even make any sense.
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
The last 2 don't even make any sense.
This 28 survey was off a limited number of people who went out of there way to fill out an online survey about wow. So the survey says more explicitly: Out of the people in WoW and the Barrens who have the attention span/desire to fill out an online survey with no sweet loot giveaway, the average age was 28.
I don't think you have to play many other MMOs to find that WoW's community is relatively immature. Not that WoW players are, but comparing to any other P2P game, WoW gets a lot of "g2g mom yelling at me, thx 4 loot."
That is based on a survey of over 10 games with one subject.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
Both had childrens meals.
Fast food for people that don't like to cook.
Drive-throw so you don't need to get out of your car.
And part-time workers.
WoW isn't anymore for children than other mmorpgs. It shows because the average WoW player is 28 according to surveys
WoW isn't anymore "fast" than other games. You login and play. See? it's simple.
The last 2 don't even make any sense.
This 28 survey was off a limited number of people who went out of there way to fill out an online survey about wow. So the survey says more explicitly: Out of the people in WoW and the Barrens who have the attention span/desire to fill out an online survey with no sweet loot giveaway, the average age was 28.
I don't think you have to play many other MMOs to find that WoW's community is relatively immature. Not that WoW players are, but comparing to any other P2P game, WoW gets a lot of "g2g mom yelling at me, thx 4 loot."
That is based on a survey of over 10 games with one subject.
If you have a survey with a more accurate number of the age of WoW players, i'd gladly see it.
I have played plenty of other MMORPGs and found WoW's community not to be significantly more immature than other games. Also, if it were to have more children that would simply be because WoW is so popular, not because the game is built for children. I'm pretty sure that if you removed all people below 18 from the game, WoW's subscriber base would still dwarf that of other mmorpgs.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Every relevant guild in the game is 16 or 18 years old minimum age, so just associate yourself with the right people. There are guilds for kids just the same way that there are guilds for adults. These groups are segregated; other than buying and selling items, or the AH, I have never once played extensively with someone who was under 16. Even in PUGs.
"Adults" are the immature ones for caring so much, just shut up and play.
Oh yeah, didn't mean to say only the young or mentally young play the game, just that the games nature seems to attract more of them (not to mention, as GameLoading said, its popularity). I was shocked the first 3 times PUGs were dropped because people got their loot and had better stuff to do.
But yeah, not really arguing anything about WoW just bored and challenging some survey reliability while I wait.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
If the average age of a WOW player is 28, then I have to say that there are way too many immature people out there in their late 20's. Now I am in my late 20's and played WOW for a few years before I quit last year, so I was in this demographic. But I have to say, at the maturity lvl of a 6 year old with ADHD most players of WoW are scarely infantile.
We started a guild in WoW to keep these 28 year old kids from spamming us with guild and group invites. When I first started WoW, just after release the players were, on the average, respectful and dare I say mature. As the game grew in popularity the maturity level of its players declined in almost equal proportions. AoC and Lotro are very different from what I saw in WoW. The maturity level of these games is leaps and bounds beyond that of WoW. I believe that is because games like WoW have become too popular for their own good, with each expansion the game draws more and more new players that want instant gratification, more players that want end game now rather than later. I personally enjoy the leveling process, you learn your character, you learn the tweaks and perks of your class. With each expansion blizzard made their game easier and their players less skilled, and the more mature players wanting a bit of a challenge left to find greener pastures. Now I have to say, I loved WoW, I had 4 70's when I quit, it was fun and entertaining, it was everything I wanted in a game, but even before the first expansion it was declining. We saw its ultimate demise for our guild when they lowered the leveling requirements and made lvl 20 possible in a single evening of game play, and people were joining PUGs in Outlands with 3 weeks experience under their belt and blaming their inability to do anything on everything except their lack of knowledge of the game.
I love MMORPG's, I will continue to play them, but I will always search for the game that gives me a challenge, a game that sets the bar a little higher for its players. A game that, if its average player is 28 years old, treats them like the adults they are and expects them to be able to play a game without throwing a tantrum when they don't get their Happy Meals.
Literature has been dumbed down... look at the current best sellers
cinema has been dumbed down look at yahoo movies.
Besides you love WOW a dumbed down game...
Are you saying mmorpg should be dumbed down to show they are evolving?
It seems you misinterpret challenge for intellect... As you said you love wow, you gain satisfaction from playing a dumbed down game, thats your game style. At times I play BF2 for its simple game play.
....
LOL .. WOW is dumbed down? I would call any game with mechanics so complex that you need optimization software to maximize dps "dumb down".
Yes, WOW is dumbed down. Game mechanics are behind the scene. The game is dumb down and made for a preteen's.
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyable.
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Amen. I have always used the Wal-Mart analogy, but this works.
Challenging vs easy is not the best way to look at things, because MMORPGs have never really been challenging (aside from PvP). With simple, predictable AI the only thing you've ever had to do in an MMO is learn your classes skills and when to use them. Thats it. Increasing the size of encounters might seem more challenging, but in that case youre really just trying to wrestle every one into performing their basic task.
Dangerous vs safe would be more accurate. Olders MMOs could be fairly dangerous and punishing. If you went some where out of your level range there was a very real chance of death and loss. In newer MMOs, it seems much easier to get out of most situations and, if you do die, the penalty is too small to even worry about. Is this better? Well, it can be less annoying, but its also much less exciting.
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Both AC and UO also had either areas with go kill XX quests or they had very little quests in general. You can't expect deep quests and also have a big quantity of them.
I said that gear was a contributing factor, not the only factor. There have been many famous WoW players back when I played that were well known for their pvp abilities. No matter how much you want to spin it, pvp in mmorpgs like WoW still has player skill as a contributing factor, it just isn't the only one because surprise, it's an RPG. Not a Shooter or a Fighting game.
Aion isn't a crap game at all, it's actually a really good game. Just because it isn't Counter Strike online doesn't make it a bad game. There are also some clearly noticable differences between WoW and Aion.
McDonalds has actually some pretty decent fast food. To say MCD's is for people who don't know any better is laughable, because people NEVER EVER eat anything else besides MCdonalds food, right?
What do you really want to discuss here, WoW or MCdonalds? My point was to prove the WoW - MCdonalds anology is flawed.
Actually I think most players will agree that not only do mmorpgs released after those games lived up to those games: They exceeded them.
It's not that games are getting dumbed down, it's that needlessly complications that arised in those games have been removed. The vast majority of gamers do not find having your entire inventory looted by a playerkiller of which you had no chance against the in first place an entertaining, nor is losing many hours of progress trying to get to your body in Everquest. That's not depth, thats punishing gameplay that doesn't add anything to the entertain value of the game whatsoever.
Also it's silly to point towards Aion and call it a grind after you called Everquest a classic. Everquest defined grinding.
Your 123% wrong.
The current games are dev. for the preteen - sub 18 year old market. To be honest if this trend does not change I doubt there will be any games worth playing.
Complications ? do you mean, having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? or worlds being changed by the community? pvp that depends on skills and not gear?
mmo's are canabalizing themselves, if things continue, players will be better off playing AA or a single player rpg....
AION is a crap game though...
Actually according to surveys, the average WoW player is 28. Not preteen sub 18. I'm sorry that your stereotype doesn't exist.
Having to actually use your brain to get quest completed? I'm not sure which genre you played because it isn't mmorpgs. MMORPG quests have never been any more than go kill XX or go find XX.
PVP in modern mmorpg aren't all about gear. Gear is a contributing factor, not the only factor.
If you expect a game of which one of the focuses is character improvement to be stats to be suddenly 100% about player skill in PVP, your expectations are unrealistic and you're playing the wrong genre. If you want a game to be about skill only, you shouldn't be playing an mmorpg.
Also to DarkDmaster:
Go watch a movie if you want to play in a safe environment?
Do I even need to describe how ridiculous that comment is?
the quest part... UO and AC...
And you are dead wrong, almost all current 2005+ MMO's are gear based PVP. As for the word modern, it can be used to include the 90's....
Not to mention older MMO'S were skill based... hence you raise your skills in diff. crafts,magic's or melee.
What genre have you been playing? you are the classic example of the type who is sucked into these dumb downed games...
ALL mmorpgs have Go find XX or go kill XX quests or they barely have any quests.
I said it before and i'll say it again: Almost all current mmorpgs have equipment be a contributing factor, not the only factor. If you're going to sit back and use only auto attack and 1 or 2 skills in WoW or WAR you're going to get your ass kicked.
Older MMO's were skill based in the sense that it used skill points instead of levels. The actual combat had gear just as much a factor as in modern mmorpgs.
You're the classic example of a person who is blinded by nostalgia. See what I did there?
@rutaq ;Your MCdonalds anology is a popular one but it's also a deeply flawed one.
MCdonalds became this big because it had a good quality - price balance. It food was not restaurant material, but that's why you paid less, it came in at the right place at the right time and their restaurants are everywhere.
This isn't the case with World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft has the same price as every other mmorpg and it's also by far the highest quality mmorpg.
as I said Ac and UO quest are an example. do some research. wiki ac quest....
again AC gear is not the driving point behind pvp. its a added bonus. a lvl 80 can take out a team of 4 120's if he plays correctly.
Your point is invalid.
WOW is = to AION.
its a crap game, made for people that wanted to play a mmorpg based on warcraft. its that simple.
lol are you serious? McDonalds has crappy feed made cheap. People eat that crap becuase its cheap.
But thanks for making my point, MCD's is for people who dont know any better. People who do not have the money to pay for healthier food. it's sold to people who have no idea what type of product they are eating.
Its junk food and is marketed to a young naive audience.
Both AC and UO also had either areas with go kill XX quests or they had very little quests in general. You can't expect deep quests and also have a big quantity of them.
I said that gear was a contributing factor, not the only factor. There have been many famous WoW players back when I played that were well known for their pvp abilities. No matter how much you want to spin it, pvp in mmorpgs like WoW still has player skill as a contributing factor, it just isn't the only one because surprise, it's an RPG. Not a Shooter or a Fighting game.
Aion isn't a crap game at all, it's actually a really good game. Just because it isn't Counter Strike online doesn't make it a bad game. There are also some clearly noticable differences between WoW and Aion.
McDonalds has actually some pretty decent fast food. To say MCD's is for people who don't know any better is laughable, because people NEVER EVER eat anything else besides MCdonalds food, right?
What do you really want to discuss here, WoW or MCdonalds? My point was to prove the WoW - MCdonalds anology is flawed.
Your dead wrong about AC, lol so the rest of your points have no merrit.
Yes, MCD's is for people who do not know any better such as you it seems or thouse who can not afford proper food which might be you, as well
To be honest your views are the kind that have been killing the mmorpg community. You will attach yourself to what ever crap they fill in a bun and call it yummy.
WOW and PVP do not go together, WOW was made for warcraft fans. It is not a solid game nor will it ever be.
You are an IDIOt.
You make no sense whatsoever. Do you honnestly believe that people who eat at MCdonalds never ate anything else or can't afford it? I wonder what loops of logic you had to jump through to get to that conclussion.
I'm the one who has been killing the mmorpg community? Actually I'm not nor do I attach myself to crap. I play games I enjoy and sorry to inform you but that isn't Counterstrike Online. You know who have been killing the mmorpg community? People like you have.
Just listen to yourself. You're implying I'm poor and can't afford proper food and call me an idiot simply for having a different opinion than you and it's me who is "killing" the mmorpg community?
WoW has always been a solid game. There is a good reason why it's so popular and received so much critical praise.
I got involved in mmos because of the complexity of the genre. Today's mmos are more about the fighting and the graphics. Thus for me my dislike of the current mmo crop has nothing to do with nostalgia. I just think the vast majority of mmos are dumbed down, and have very little to interest me. I realize I am in the minority, but I do firmly believe that you can create a good polished game with high level of complexity that can appeal to the masses.
Why don't you just start the post with the name of the person you are disagree with. He/She will know what you are talking about without that huge quote.
This would be about 1/3 the pages without them and much easier to read.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable
Give me those annoyances give me something that makes me watch my back and fear death, give me a set back if I die, punish me for failing. Make me work for something in a game. I want it to be a game again and not an interactive chat room. Seriously man, do you enjoy a game where you have to aggro six or seven mobs just to get hurt, where you have to work to die? why play? where is the rush you should get from fighting? Where is the fun in being a bully to weak mobs?
In most cases if you can do quests in a zone there are very few mobs in that zone that can surprise, respawn or step up on you and have a hope in hell of killing you. Your right the skill needed to play most MMOs is slight and if you have half a brain and know your character these games present very little that can be remotely challenging. They go from easy to impossible with nothing in between that makes you hold your breath or pucker your butt. As far as challenging, I don't care if I have to fight one or a dozen, I want them to be able to kill me if I don't play my character right. I want the game to force me into these difficult positions that I might not survive. As was stated in an earlier post, right now to make most games interesting you have to play outside of the games intentions.
In short I want a MMORPG that presents a challenging factor just shy of Ninja Gaiden 2, I want a game that makes leveling fun again and not just a means to an end.
Ok so I have played everything from EQ to Wow and Lotro, and I have to say, I enjoyed leveling in WoW but EQ always held my attention a little better. In games like EQ you had to watch yourself or you would get hammered, you had to play to your classes strengths and avoid extremely dangerous areas until you were of level to deal with the mobs there. In WoW you could be a level 10 and go anywhere, as long as you stayed on the road you were safe, leveling was quick and easy, 3 and 4 level difference in mobs just means better drops, in Lotro its even worse than WoW, 5 lvl difference.. lol give me a half dozen, elites 4-5 levels higher are not even a match. Where is the challenge in these games? In EQ lvl 40 meant something, it meant you had played a game hard and suceded in making it, In WoW lvl 40 is given to you like a christmas present wraped in a shiney little ribbon, In Lotro, they forgot the ribbon and give it to you on a platter with potatoes and carrots. When I play a game I want at least a semblance of a challenge, make it difficult for me to kill an even level elite, make even level mobs easy at one on one but if I get two, hurt me. Make lvl 40 a challenge again, shit make 20 a challenge, weed out those who only want to chat and make themselves look pretty in new armor, give me a mmorpg that requires an IQ over that of a merlock to succed at.
In games like Conan, it was close, the challenges offered there were a nice change, they didn't make it much harder than WoW or Lotro but they made it different, that was cool. But ultimatly even Conan lost my attention because of the lack of new material and experiences. Are we asking for too much in a game? One that can hold our attention like WoW, that is a challenge like EQ, and has the inventivness of Conan?
As for Full loot PvP, why not, strip down to your skivies and fight like a man if you don't want your goodies taken by the boogy man, PvP is your choice, make it interesting. and As far as corpse runs, yeah I loved it in EQ, it made Dieing mean something you wanted to avoid at all costs. In games like Lotro I went my first 17 lvls without getting killed, I made it almost to 40 before I fell again and then to 52 before another, corpse runs? Even if games like WoW and Lotro had corpse runs you would run them so little they wouldn't bother you, how could you get tired of something you only do once every 10-12 levels?
You're confusing punishing with challenge. Just because a game takes more away from you doesn't mean that the actual challenge increases, just the amount of time spend is increased to get back to where you where.
Reaching a high level in an old grind game such as Everquest didn't mean you were a good player, it simply meant you played the game for a long time. in WoW, you can't go anywhere. As you already mentioned yourself, you're only able to stay on the roads which is a very small portion of the entire world. How is this less challenging? It's not like you're making any progress or as if there is a real point to travel the world on roads only.
What you're saying makes little sense. if a game is built on one on one fights, that suddenly makes it more challenging than a game that is built to take multiple enemies on at the same time? So a game like WoW is more challenging than City of Heroes because you fight more enemies at the same time than in WoW? MMORPGs have never been truly challengings as the only skill required is pressing the right key at the right button, which is very easy to learn. When you die in mmorpgs, it's usually because
You agrod a mob above your level
A mob spawned near you and agrod you
A mob suddenly walks into your agro range.
The reason why you die less in modern mmorpgs is because these annoyances have been reduced.
The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable
Give me those annoyances give me something that makes me watch my back and fear death, give me a set back if I die, punish me for failing. Make me work for something in a game. I want it to be a game again and not an interactive chat room. Seriously man, do you enjoy a game where you have to aggro six or seven mobs just to get hurt, where you have to work to die? why play? where is the rush you should get from fighting? Where is the fun in being a bully to weak mobs?
In most cases if you can do quests in a zone there are very few mobs in that zone that can surprise, respawn or step up on you and have a hope in hell of killing you. Your right the skill needed to play most MMOs is slight and if you have half a brain and know your character these games present very little that can be remotely challenging. They go from easy to impossible with nothing in between that makes you hold your breath or pucker your butt. As far as challenging, I don't care if I have to fight one or a dozen, I want them to be able to kill me if I don't play my character right. I want the game to force me into these difficult positions that I might not survive. As was stated in an earlier post, right now to make most games interesting you have to play outside of the games intentions.
In short I want a MMORPG that presents a challenging factor just shy of Ninja Gaiden 2, I want a game that makes leveling fun again and not just a means to an end.
Thank you Darq
FYI
"The dead you describe only means frustration and setback. I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."
"dead": do you mean "death"
Most adults learn not to be frustrated. O and to help from being frustrated, stop dying.
" I don't really see how that makes a game more enjoyaable."
And yes sir, "you don't see" has been the problem with this toppic and forum from the beginning.
I play chess because I learn from it, or should I say I learn from my opponent. If my opponent plays well and makes me think, that makes the game more enjoyable. If I lose in a game of chess, I learn from it and that also makes the game more enjoyable. When I loss, that is telling me that I'm playing a opponent that is equiel to me in ability, and I need to slow down and THINK.
So what are you telling us about your abilitys? That you don't like to slow down? That you don't need to think? Or slowing down and thinking is not enjoyable to you? Winning is the only enjoyment that you receive from playing OLGs? That the games being made are hard to you already? That you don't learn from being frusted? Or is it that you simply do not "SEE" how easy online games have become?
PLease let use know, maybe we can help you understand!
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.