Banning isn't always the best solution either. I found an article where one MMO stepped up its anti gold farming/selling procedure and ended up banning almost half its player base. They lost money in the process and the MMO has since failed. I forget what the actual number was but Blizzard posted they banned a couple hundred thousand accounts not too long ago involved with farming/buying gold. I'm sure they questioned if it was worth it given the subscriptions they lose in the process.
Hell, Blizzard doesn't care because they know damn well that all of those banned accounts will just ante up for ANOTHER account to continue their efforts, which really brings them more cash at $50 a pop (Of whatever WoW goes for these days) on top of the $15 a month there after until they are banned again. I doubt Blizzard bans IP's, just the connected account because of the above stated way of gaining more money. This is the way of a greedy company, and I wouldn't doubt they do this.
Originally posted by Dethevan And everytime I put something on the auction, I made sure to undercut the lowest bid by atleast 25% to 40% if not more. I used it to help me bring my characters up to a point to where I could make the money on my own. Do I condone gold buyers? No. It isn't the gold buyers/sellers that throw Player driven economies into chaos. It's the fools who are willing to pay the ones who are price gouging. Those that buy items when someone raise said prices by 300%+ is who is to blame. If one person can sell said item for that much, then everyone else starts setting their prices around that, if not trying to see if anyone is willing to go higher. Next thing you know, the market is flooded with overpriced goods.
I'd just like to point out something. Overly cheap items (dumping) also destroy the economy. There's a reason it's outlawed IRL...
Let's say a player has spend time instead of maney to get an item he can sell pretty high. If the item is suddenly depreciated, it hurts his income. His LEGIT income might I say as he didn't spend money on illegal goldsellers.
Plus, no the market does not get overflooded with overpriced goods. Offer and demands regulates pretty well an in-game economy. If the general price of an item is raised for any length of time, then it means the arket can absorb this new price.
But that is providing that no bot hogs a certain ressource (sending its price through the roof) or that no one buy items out-of-game to then sell them for pennies, completely unbalancing the rarety and value of this item...
Originally posted by SuperXero89 Crafting and playing the economy or all little side activities developed by the players, but the real meat and potatoes of the MMORPG genre is group dynamics. The real meat and potatoes is running to get .
Er, sorry for the double-post, but who are you to decide what's the endgame?!
You are obviously referring to some WoW-like game here. But there are other MMOs with other objectives and other types of players enjoying them.
Yes, I'm defending my own fun in a game, As I enjoy crafting, thank you very much. The difference is that I don't just disregard raids as meaningless, just not my cup of tea.
Do I condone gold buyers? No. It isn't the gold buyers/sellers that throw Player driven economies into chaos. It's the fools who are willing to pay the ones who are price gouging. Those that buy items when someone raise said prices by 300%+ is who is to blame. If one person can sell said item for that much, then everyone else starts setting their prices around that, if not trying to see if anyone is willing to go higher. Next thing you know, the market is flooded with overpriced goods. But, if it can be flooded with overpriced, it can be flooded with underpriced. Either way, the only way to fix it is for the economy to crash. (My game economy ideas will be spared for another thread.)
Wrong.
The price gouging is often done by.... you guessed it.... the RMT. They identify a high-value, rare item that is in demand and then monopolize it, which can happen in different ways.
1. If the item drops off a mob.... then they simply monopolize that creature, using bots and scripts and exploits to get an advantage, near 100% of the time, over legit players - getting the claim every time, getting the drop every time it does. They then list those items at a high price on the auction house, charging exorbitant prices, leaving many players to feel that the only way they can possibly acquire the item is buy breaking down and buying the gil. That they're constantly advertising their "business" and spinning it as being all fine and dandy is the other side of what they do.
2. If it's an item that they can't monopolize out in the game world, they then run bots that scan and monitor the auction house non-stop, looking for key items. When the items are listed by other players, they immediately buy them out and then relist them at a much higher price, resulting in the same as the example above. 3. If it's a world resource required for crafting, or something like fishing, etc... then they run bots to automate the process of gathering those items, sell the items in mass quantity for lower prices, affecting the market on those items.
Here's just *one* example of proof of how RMT affects an economy...
Final Fantasy XI had a horrible RMT problem for a while. Far too much ill-gotten gil was circulating, dropping the value of it and resulting in far higher costs. Items that would normally go for, say, 200k, were going for 4 mil or higher. Some examples were even more extreme, such as a 2 million gil item going up to 20 million....
One item that saw that kind of increase was the "Emperor Hairpin", a drop from a creature called "Valkurm Emperor". The RMT set up their bots/scripts to scan the spawn area for him... as soon as he'd spawn, they'd warp to him, get claim. If they got the drop, it was passed to another character who put it on the AH for an absurdly high price.
That's just an example of *one* item that saw that kind of inflation. New players were finding it increasingly difficult to get even basic gear because the price of those items were going up more and more over time.
It got to the point where players started leaving in disgust at how out of control the economy was.
Then Square Enix stepped in, created their RMT Task Force and came down hard on the RMT. Within a couple months, they'd eliminated a lot of the RMT, had removed 10s of billions of excess (ie. RMT bought) gil from the game and brought it under control. The result? Those items that had gone from 200k up to 4mil came down in price to under 200k. The items that were going for 20 mil were now down to 2-3 mil. A Jujitsu Gi, was 450k prior to the inflation, went up to over 3 million or so at its worst... and can now be bought for about 60k since SE came down on the RMT and eliminated the excess gil.
The result is a game that is now much friendlier to new players, and all players overall. People aren't leaving in disgust over not being able to afford level 10 gear and the game is much better for it.
Again... RMT absolutely *does* affect the economy in a MMO - as long as there are items that players have a high need or demand for, the RMT companies will exploit them any way they can. I've seen the affects of RMT on an economy, and I've seen the improvement in the economy when it's addressed. There's no way anyone can say "RMT doesn't affect the economy". It absolutely does and to pretend it doesn't is pure willful ignorance. Point is, people are using those that buy/sell gold as scapegoats for when the economy and such goes bad. Might it still be their fault? Sometimes, but not all the time. Some of you say it ruins your gaming experience when someone else buys gold. Unless said person confesses to buying gold, how do you know they didn't get it the old fashioned way?
Oh it's quite easy to tell when someone's buying their money.
When someone always wears baseline, unexpensive gear and/or complains about not having a lot of money to buy anything, then shows up a couple days later wearing all the best, most expensive stuff they can have at their level... It's kinda obvious.
When someone never farms, never crafts, never works the auction house, never camps rare spawns, or anything else that could make them money, yet seems to have an endless supply of money to have the best gear at all times... it's kinda obvious.
And again... people buying gold and, thus, supporting RMT *does* affect everyone else, in any combination of the reasons I've listed in a previous post. It's not only the economy that's affected... it's also the tactics the RMT use to do their "business" - all the cheats, and hacks, and exploits, and monopolization of places/items/creatures, etc... Those also have an effect on other players.
RMT companies have started using tactics such as attempting to compromise accounts. When successful, they strip them of all gear and items and sell off what they can for sell-able money, and then use the characters to spam their ads until the character/account is reported and banned. I'd say that's far from a "victimless crime". That's what some RMT companies have resorted to in WoW and FFXI, and I'm sure in other MMOs as well. People who continue to buy their way through the game are supporting those activities by allowing those scumbags to stay in business. So, not only does supporting RMT companies affect others' enjoyment of a game, in some cases, it's resulting in stripped and/or banned accounts.
A scapegoat, that's what it all boils down to.
Nope. No scapegoat necessary. It's fact, it happens and it's been demonstrated. Again, ignoring or dismissing the negatives doesn't make them any less so.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Gold sellers destroying the game economy is a red herring. It is so idiotic as to be stupid. The own games' designs destroy the environment. When I get to top level and start an alt I usually have the cash to out spend out buy and out sell any low level character just starting. Where you as a starting character might only have 10 whatever to spend I will pay 100 to make sure I get it. Thus people will sell it at 100 to try and get the high level alt player. Time is what destroys game economies. Gold selling is what can make a new character in a game competative with long standing games. The only economies gold sellers can destroy is a game in the first few months of it starting...and I wonder how much gold to price the sellers are actually distributing to people. Eve Online combats this by spreading out the economy over vast areas and by having the accumulation of isk to be at close to the same levels as beginning players, when compaired to the accumulation as compaired to other games. So drop the gold sellers ruin the economy bit....it is old.
Another excellent observation/analysis regarding the myth of gold selling "destroying" MMORPG's.
For the most part, it isn't true, regardless of the ethical considerations in question.
Yes, excellent, the poster twinking his alts and apparently being unable to cope with getting ganked in an MMO make for a deep analysis of ingame economies... are you kidding me? If you guys agree to the premise that over time an MMOs economy will deteriorate how are gold sellers helping the issue? They can only ruin a games economy at launch? LOL yea, thats not a criticaql moment in an MMOs existence...
And to the EVE fanboys, your game is in no way exceptional or a tower of virtue. It promotes RMT on a P2P environment!!!! Thats about the worse model in all of MMOs, it's an abomination... The only reason EVE has survived at all is that is somewhat the only quality alternative in a very specific niche. Good luck loosing a good two thirds of your population when Star Trek Online launches, we will see how you handle the game unbalance when the company tries to squeeze every last dollar out of you... And don't get me the "people can buy their subscriptions with isk" argument, you know youre only fooling yourselves. It is so idiotic as to be stupid.
You need to look at the price that gold in new games goes for. The price alone stops the average person from buying any gold in a new game. thus the economies are generally safe because the majority of people are not willing ot pay that price for gold. As to gold sellers deteriorating the economy more...there is no way that the economy is not just going to deteriorate. Even without gold sellers there is nothing in games to stop the economy from falling apart when more thank 30% of the population is at max level and starts alts. From that point on the economy is shit. Nothing can save it. The games own design tells new players if you want to enjoy the game you will have to buy gold or have someone give you gold. Otherwise you will have shit for items. There is no incentive for new players to WoW, EQ2, LOTR to not buy gold.
My question to WSIMike so if a bot horde a mob, a resource, or spends its time hawking an auction house for items it is bad...but if a player doing it for themselves it is ok?????
Odviously if this is the problem with the economy it is the games design that is screwed up not the bot. Because as far as impact on the economy a bot or person do it it is the same. You should be pissed at the makers of the game not the bots. They created a game based on a shitty economy.
From WSIMike:
When someone never farms, never crafts, never works the auction house, never camps rare spawns, or anything else that could make them money, yet seems to have an endless supply of money to have the best gear at all times... it's kinda obvious.
LOLOLOLOLOL all the crap you bitched about a bot doing...and now you are complaining that people should be human bots.....lolololololololol.
Crafting and playing the economy or all little side activities developed by the players, but the real meat and potatoes of the MMORPG genre is group dynamics. The real meat and potatoes is running to get .
Er, sorry for the double-post, but who are you to decide what's the endgame?!
You are obviously referring to some WoW-like game here. But there are other MMOs with other objectives and other types of players enjoying them.
Yes, I'm defending my own fun in a game, As I enjoy crafting, thank you very much. The difference is that I don't just disregard raids as meaningless, just not my cup of tea.
Or Everquest, Everquest Online Adventures, Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Final Fantasy XI, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer Online, Lineage 2, Aion, City of Heroes, Champions Online, or ,without having to go one any further, pretty much any MMORPG on the market today released within the last ten years. That isn't my definition of what the main focus of the game is. I would love for you to attempt argue with me that those games aren't based off of grouping with other players in some fashion, be it doing dungeon runs, public quests, PvP, or something as simple as standing in one spot for three hours camping mobs, in order to obtain gear or status to further progress your character.
All these games have crafting in some form, but it is in no real way the main focus of the game, and it is my belief that if largely doing away with many secondary aspects, which, in some ways may have a negative effect on the game's economy, causing economic disparity, would improve what I perceive to be main focus of the game for the vast majority of players as I have already described in detail.
If you don't like my solution for the problem, go back and play some other game. It isn't like I'm trying to rip the crafting aspect right out of the genre. Any of the games I listed and hundreds more will be around for years to come, and if crafting is what you get the most enjoyment out of, more power to you. Have fun in any other MMORPG out there.
@ SuperXero89; I must thank you for going into so much detail in arguing your point. I apologize for not quoting you but this things can get out of hand when such large posts are involved.
We seem to agree on the overall mechanisms by which gold buying/selling works as well as in its effects although our disagreement seems to be on the matter of degree or proportion. Now as really i know of no way to obtain any sort of reliable data on this issue i may afraid we may only speak of what empyrical experience reveals to each of us. To me twinking is not so much an issue (i usually only level one alt) but i do see a lot of unexperienced people at higher levels, which make for either incompetent partners in raids or abusive lowbie gankers in pvp. I've also often encountered situations in which a gold buying spree by a number of people at a certain level range will dramatically affect prices of weps and armors. I know in this instances that gold buyers are involved because, much as some people in this forums, they often brag about it and seem almost pleased with the results. While some people may outlevel the range at which this distortions ocur, endgame is a diferent scenario and price hikes at this stage may drive valuable and experienced players out of the game. Having to party with buffoons and cheaters, instead of the good people i leveled with, decidedly has a negative effect on my gameplay.
As for your proposal, while i understand that to some players the economy may be a disagreeable and unimportant aspect of gameplay i think im in a majority that considers it esential. Its not just that merchanting, crafting or playing the market may be pleasurable activities in themselves, but they provide another way to have an impact and interaction with the rest of the player base. I myself do not set up player shops, but they are one dear element of the game to me. Despite the lag and the inanity in chat they may produce, they also bring cities to life. Some people irl dont like market places (they dislike the crowding, the excess of vulgarity, etc) but i do. They bring a great element to the game even if you need to haggle or spend time looking to take advantage of bargains. The economy is one of the most basic levels in which people interact and to me it would be a stepback to attack the richness and complexity of persistant worlds by removing this element. Guilds and forums have brought politics into virtual worlds, we also have our artists in media like machinima. We have our scientists in the people who use math to calculate everything from drop rates to defense ratings, historians, sportsmen, explorers. People fighting for human rights (ive seen gay pride parades on an mmo) even celebrities (anyone remember Leroy Jenkins). Merchants are as important a part of our worlds as anyone else. And we have our own petty criminals, people like gold buyers. And before anyone tries to turn my argument on its head saying cheaters also have their place (even if what they do hurts everyone else) i must say i would be alright with these "criminals" if they gave some of us the means to track them down and bring them to justice.
That may be the solution im ofering, give us means to investigate whos buying gold and put a bounty on their heads. I guarantee many of us would dedicate ourselves to ridding our MMOs of cheaters.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Caleveira you talk like gold buyers buy levels. That is just stupid. That is people that are alt-o-holics. A person that gets to high level and then spends all his cash raising every class up to high level is what you do not like. That has little to do with gold buyers. You are just trying to lump that on them. If your problem is with people making a lot of alts and getting them to high level and not being specialized in all their alts then complain about games making more than one character slot per server. Your problem is not gold sellers it is number of character slots.
Please bring up points relative to gold sellers if you are complaining about them. Also at end game...I do not know what game you are playing but most of the end game gear is stuff that can not be sold or bought. It must be gotten from raid bosses. So I do not know what you are talking about gold sellers effecting end game significantly. I have never knows anyone that said they need to buy gold to get that end game gear they wanted. People talk about gold buying to get items and skills while leveling.
First, thanks WSIMike for a really good explanation on how gold sellers affect a game. I'd just add that they have to get the in-game money they sell from some source: hence, selling items at high price also has that advantage to them.
SuperXero, the number of games who are like WoW is exactly like I used the term "WoW-LIKE game", not specifically "WoW".
Because, supposedly, the vast majority of players prefer endgame to crafting, does not meaning crafters are a small minority. To spell it out, 49% is still aminority compared to 51%, but it's also almost half the population. And no, I don,t pretend crafters are 49% of the player base, that is just an example!
Raiders being possibly the majority doesn't even mean that they don't enjoy crafting once in a while. This probably means crafting won't just be scraped out of MMOs.
And yes, I'm already on other games, thank you Captain Obvious. I never really like WoW and I play Dofus. Here too, grouping for big bosses is a big part of the game, but the crafting system is developed enough to please me. I also played casual games or MMOs like galaXseeds, because I'm not much of a munchkin.
However, as I said in the post you quoted, the fact that I don't like raiding doesn't mean I consider it useless or secondary, which is what YOU are doing with cradfting... To each his own, as they say!
What I cannot agree to disagree on, is that gold buying and selling is cheating in most games, as outlines by EULA and diverses rules. As I've said in another post, if it legal within the game, I have no problems with it - as long as it is the publisher selling the gold, not some third-party which is necessarily in violation of intellectual property rights...
I would like, on the other hand, for some to really, logically explain how crafting unbalance the game economy! And no, playing crafting, collecting or looting is not the same as bots:
- bots are alteration of the program, again in violation of EULA , property rights, and game rules
- bots have means to be instanteously on the spot (because they altered the program), whereas a live "camper" for a certain spawn have to find the mob or may just be checking something else as the mob spawns, thus missing it.
- bots can be on 24/7, without even teh mandatory break to eat and other bodily urges 9like sleep).
To me, the whole economy is just another competitive field, just like, level, gear, or which monster you can beat. Anyone suddenly getting mass amounts of money without actually playing the economy is cheating and very unnerving, just like someone who would suddenly jump from level 1 to 50 through means external to the game is cheating.
EDIT: Caleveira also has an interesting take on economy. Yes it does bring life to our persistant worlds.
First, thanks WSIMike for a really good explanation on how gold sellers affect a game. I'd just add that they have to get the in-game money they sell from some source: hence, selling items at high price also has that advantage to them.
SuperXero, the number of games who are like WoW is exactly like I used the term "WoW-LIKE game", not specifically "WoW".
Which you fail to understand that almost every MMORPG on the market today plays somewhat like WoW. So in your statement, "You are obviously referring to some WoW-Like game here," you just included almost the entire MMORPG genre in your statement.
Because, supposedly, the vast majority of players prefer endgame to crafting, does not meaning crafters are a small minority. To spell it out, 49% is still aminority compared to 51%, but it's also almost half the population. And no, I don,t pretend crafters are 49% of the player base, that is just an example!
Did I say anything about endgame? No, put in simplest terms, I said the combat aspect is where the focus of most games in the genre lies. Now would you like to argue with me about that? Going back over my original post, I didn't even say anything about vast majority of players enjoying either one, to be honest, so I don't know what you're on such a tangent about.
Raiders being possibly the majority doesn't even mean that they don't enjoy crafting once in a while. This probably means crafting won't just be scraped out of MMOs.
Read what I said please. I said, crafting would have to be phased out, but not done away with entirely. You obviously couldn't have people crafting weapons and armor with no ability to sell those weapons and armor. Instead, they would craft what can be considered largely as fluff items and status symbols. Secondly, I never said the majority didn't enjoy it. Near to my exact words was my saying, "Just about the only justification I've ever heard anyone give for the hours spent harvesting for ingredients is that it's something they can do, which is a bit more relaxing than the average XP group." Now, I don't know about you, but that seems like a pretty good reason to keep crafting in an MMORPG. I say though, lets stop making it so integral towards character advancement. If individuals want to spend their time crafting, then I say go ahead, bu those with limited playtimes shouldn't be expected to spend that time farming for ingredients and whatnot just to keep up his tradeskill level the person can gear his or herself. That's just another reason players buy gold.
And yes, I'm already on other games, thank you Captain Obvious. I never really like WoW and I play Dofus. Here too, grouping for big bosses is a big part of the game, but the crafting system is developed enough to please me. I also played casual games or MMOs like galaXseeds, because I'm not much of a munchkin.
Then why are you so insulted by my proposing a game with no real ability for a player to craft items integral to character development? You act as if I'm on a personal crusade to rid the entire genre of the ability to craft, which I'm not. The point is to propose an ideal set up for a game which has no real issues with gold sellers because gold has little bearing on character advancement.
However, as I said in the post you quoted, the fact that I don't like raiding doesn't mean I consider it useless or secondary, which is what YOU are doing with cradfting... To each his own, as they say!
Crafting is a secondary aspect of almost every MMORPG genre on the market. It's nothing more than a supplement to improve performance in the PvE or PvP areas of the game. If not that, crafting is general used to create house items or fluff items, which is exactly the type of crafting I would keep in a game.
I would like, on the other hand, for some to really, logically explain how crafting unbalance the game economy! And no, playing crafting, collecting or looting is not the same as bots:
*Tries to find anyone who's actually saying that* I couldn't find anyone
Gold farmers hacking and stealing accounts or gold is another myth created by game companies to scare you. I have never seen or heard of people having such things happen. The few cases when idiots post "I Got Hacked," usually occurs when the morons give their log in and password out to people they shouldn't trust.
Wow skarwolf... it must be nice to remain so closed-minded and simply believe you have all the answers.
A myth? Really?
Shall I introduce you to at least one good friend who logged in to his WoW account one day to find his account banned due to "RMT activity"? Then when he got the account back, all but one character (including 3 level 80s fully geared) deleted, the remaining one stripped down to nothing and then used to spam RMT in Stormwind 'til it was banned? I guarantee you'd find he's far from a "moron", and would also be enlightened to know that RMT companies use tactics that can get past even the most intelligent and cautious person.
Stop talking out of your ass. Game companies will complain saying they have to devote too much of their resources to dealing with these people. Uh.... Blizzard keeps pointing out how many subscribers they have wheres all their money going ? They don't have enough resources to deal with farmers and it detracts from game development rofl.
Some companies may complain about it, sure... but Blizzard is a really lousy example; they're one of the most aggressive in combatting it.
PROFIT. Thats all it is. They want more of it and they don't want farmers profiting from their system. Like I said previously if they either were payed a percentage or started their own cash for gold marketplace they wouldn't give a damn. I'll bet dollars to pesos they probably will start something like that. If not in WOW, they're so called next gen MMO.
Hooray for conjecture! Like I said... must really be nice to believe you have all the answers.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Gold buyers INSANELY RUIN THE ECONOMY IN MMO´s, i played wow from starters, i saw how it happened, its more insane than most people think. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla before goldbuyers, not even above 1 gold. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla with goldbuyers ( a while before TBC). over 5 gold. thats just 1 simple example, and no doubtly it ruins game economy in all MMO's....
First, thanks WSIMike for a really good explanation on how gold sellers affect a game. I'd just add that they have to get the in-game money they sell from some source: hence, selling items at high price also has that advantage to them.
SuperXero, the number of games who are like WoW is exactly like I used the term "WoW-LIKE game", not specifically "WoW".
Because, supposedly, the vast majority of players prefer endgame to crafting, does not meaning crafters are a small minority. To spell it out, 49% is still aminority compared to 51%, but it's also almost half the population. And no, I don,t pretend crafters are 49% of the player base, that is just an example!
Raiders being possibly the majority doesn't even mean that they don't enjoy crafting once in a while. This probably means crafting won't just be scraped out of MMOs.
And yes, I'm already on other games, thank you Captain Obvious. I never really like WoW and I play Dofus. Here too, grouping for big bosses is a big part of the game, but the crafting system is developed enough to please me. I also played casual games or MMOs like galaXseeds, because I'm not much of a munchkin.
However, as I said in the post you quoted, the fact that I don't like raiding doesn't mean I consider it useless or secondary, which is what YOU are doing with cradfting... To each his own, as they say!
What I cannot agree to disagree on, is that gold buying and selling is cheating in most games, as outlines by EULA and diverses rules. As I've said in another post, if it legal within the game, I have no problems with it - as long as it is the publisher selling the gold, not some third-party which is necessarily in violation of intellectual property rights...
I would like, on the other hand, for some to really, logically explain how crafting unbalance the game economy! And no, playing crafting, collecting or looting is not the same as bots: - bots are alteration of the program, again in violation of EULA , property rights, and game rules - bots have means to be instanteously on the spot (because they altered the program), whereas a live "camper" for a certain spawn have to find the mob or may just be checking something else as the mob spawns, thus missing it. - bots can be on 24/7, without even teh mandatory break to eat and other bodily urges 9like sleep).
To me, the whole economy is just another competitive field, just like, level, gear, or which monster you can beat. Anyone suddenly getting mass amounts of money without actually playing the economy is cheating and very unnerving, just like someone who would suddenly jump from level 1 to 50 through means external to the game is cheating.
EDIT: Caleveira also has an interesting take on economy. Yes it does bring life to our persistant worlds.
Which you fail to understand that almost every single MMORPG on the market plays like WOW in some way.
Or it could be that WoW and every other game out plays like UO/EQ in some way.
Gold buyers INSANELY RUIN THE ECONOMY IN MMO´s, i played wow from starters, i saw how it happened, its more insane than most people think. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla before goldbuyers, not even above 1 gold. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla with goldbuyers ( a while before TBC). over 5 gold. thats just 1 simple example, and no doubtly it ruins game economy in all MMO's....
Oh yes and most of the player base being on alts with near unlimited gold had nothing to do with this....what a joke. When BC started gold was as easy to get as oxygen. Spending 5-10 gold to power level my new alt in the new beginner lands had nothing to do with the suppend spike in prices...get a clue.
@ WSIMike ; I would also like to thank you for your post, very good job.
@ Horusra; Not all games are the same, many have tradeable items that provide a small amount of xp. When traded in bulk they allow you to actually buy levels, ive seen this. Also in many games you need to collect mats for your endgear, while the gear itself is bound the mats rarely are. And even in those games that dont allow this you can buy acounts which i take it to you is a far diferent issue but to me its not; theyre both cheating. Its using irl means to achieve ingame objectives, which in games that dont allow it cannot be justified. Gold buyers are not people i would trust with respecting any rules.
And as for games encouraging cheating, thats just bs. Anything hard "encourages" cheating... people do have a choice, many players in equal circumstances dont cheat. No one is "forced" to do anything dishonest on an MMO. You can either manage with subpar gear or outlevel the twinks (most dont make it far).
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
please name your game that is using crafter gear as end game material? lets stop being vague here. Start nameing games. You speak in very vague terms about stuff and never point out specifics. Eve online has no end game gear, WoW is all raid or PvP gear with only potions and enchants being end game (but enchants and gems are only one time costs), LOTR's is raid gear, EQ2 is raid gear...so what games are you playing?
First, thanks WSIMike for a really good explanation on how gold sellers affect a game. I'd just add that they have to get the in-game money they sell from some source: hence, selling items at high price also has that advantage to them.
SuperXero, the number of games who are like WoW is exactly like I used the term "WoW-LIKE game", not specifically "WoW".
Because, supposedly, the vast majority of players prefer endgame to crafting, does not meaning crafters are a small minority. To spell it out, 49% is still aminority compared to 51%, but it's also almost half the population. And no, I don,t pretend crafters are 49% of the player base, that is just an example!
Raiders being possibly the majority doesn't even mean that they don't enjoy crafting once in a while. This probably means crafting won't just be scraped out of MMOs.
And yes, I'm already on other games, thank you Captain Obvious. I never really like WoW and I play Dofus. Here too, grouping for big bosses is a big part of the game, but the crafting system is developed enough to please me. I also played casual games or MMOs like galaXseeds, because I'm not much of a munchkin.
However, as I said in the post you quoted, the fact that I don't like raiding doesn't mean I consider it useless or secondary, which is what YOU are doing with cradfting... To each his own, as they say!
What I cannot agree to disagree on, is that gold buying and selling is cheating in most games, as outlines by EULA and diverses rules. As I've said in another post, if it legal within the game, I have no problems with it - as long as it is the publisher selling the gold, not some third-party which is necessarily in violation of intellectual property rights...
I would like, on the other hand, for some to really, logically explain how crafting unbalance the game economy! And no, playing crafting, collecting or looting is not the same as bots: - bots are alteration of the program, again in violation of EULA , property rights, and game rules - bots have means to be instanteously on the spot (because they altered the program), whereas a live "camper" for a certain spawn have to find the mob or may just be checking something else as the mob spawns, thus missing it. - bots can be on 24/7, without even teh mandatory break to eat and other bodily urges 9like sleep).
To me, the whole economy is just another competitive field, just like, level, gear, or which monster you can beat. Anyone suddenly getting mass amounts of money without actually playing the economy is cheating and very unnerving, just like someone who would suddenly jump from level 1 to 50 through means external to the game is cheating.
EDIT: Caleveira also has an interesting take on economy. Yes it does bring life to our persistant worlds.
Which you fail to understand that almost every single MMORPG on the market plays like WOW in some way.
Or it could be that WoW and every other game out plays like UO/EQ in some way.
True, but the point remains the same. The guy's blanket statement pretty much nailed a description for nearly the entire MMORPG genre.
Gold buyers INSANELY RUIN THE ECONOMY IN MMO´s, i played wow from starters, i saw how it happened, its more insane than most people think. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla before goldbuyers, not even above 1 gold. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla with goldbuyers ( a while before TBC). over 5 gold. thats just 1 simple example, and no doubtly it ruins game economy in all MMO's....
it was cheap in the beginning because everyone was mining it. There was a huge supply of copper. Not many people are mining it now, so supply is down prices raise... this is just economics
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I have read through the pages of this thread...and one overwhelming similarity pops up throughout... the people who say they never have, or the ones who say they have just once... Most of you are flat out liars, just like masturbation...NO ONE ever admits to it, but 90% of the population does it... Sad, truly sad...
I have read through the pages of this thread...and one overwhelming similarity pops up throughout... the people who say they never have, or the ones who say they have just once... Most of you are flat out liars, just like masturbation...NO ONE ever admits to it, but 90% of the population does it... Sad, truly sad...
If it makes you feel better about your cheating then believe it by all means, as you are entitled to feeling good about yourself as well as entitled to do whatever you want in a game or in life.
Comments
Hell, Blizzard doesn't care because they know damn well that all of those banned accounts will just ante up for ANOTHER account to continue their efforts, which really brings them more cash at $50 a pop (Of whatever WoW goes for these days) on top of the $15 a month there after until they are banned again. I doubt Blizzard bans IP's, just the connected account because of the above stated way of gaining more money. This is the way of a greedy company, and I wouldn't doubt they do this.
I'd just like to point out something. Overly cheap items (dumping) also destroy the economy. There's a reason it's outlawed IRL...
Let's say a player has spend time instead of maney to get an item he can sell pretty high. If the item is suddenly depreciated, it hurts his income. His LEGIT income might I say as he didn't spend money on illegal goldsellers.
Plus, no the market does not get overflooded with overpriced goods. Offer and demands regulates pretty well an in-game economy. If the general price of an item is raised for any length of time, then it means the arket can absorb this new price.
But that is providing that no bot hogs a certain ressource (sending its price through the roof) or that no one buy items out-of-game to then sell them for pennies, completely unbalancing the rarety and value of this item...
Er, sorry for the double-post, but who are you to decide what's the endgame?!
You are obviously referring to some WoW-like game here. But there are other MMOs with other objectives and other types of players enjoying them.
Yes, I'm defending my own fun in a game, As I enjoy crafting, thank you very much. The difference is that I don't just disregard raids as meaningless, just not my cup of tea.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Another excellent observation/analysis regarding the myth of gold selling "destroying" MMORPG's.
For the most part, it isn't true, regardless of the ethical considerations in question.
Yes, excellent, the poster twinking his alts and apparently being unable to cope with getting ganked in an MMO make for a deep analysis of ingame economies... are you kidding me? If you guys agree to the premise that over time an MMOs economy will deteriorate how are gold sellers helping the issue? They can only ruin a games economy at launch? LOL yea, thats not a criticaql moment in an MMOs existence...
And to the EVE fanboys, your game is in no way exceptional or a tower of virtue. It promotes RMT on a P2P environment!!!! Thats about the worse model in all of MMOs, it's an abomination... The only reason EVE has survived at all is that is somewhat the only quality alternative in a very specific niche. Good luck loosing a good two thirds of your population when Star Trek Online launches, we will see how you handle the game unbalance when the company tries to squeeze every last dollar out of you... And don't get me the "people can buy their subscriptions with isk" argument, you know youre only fooling yourselves. It is so idiotic as to be stupid.
You need to look at the price that gold in new games goes for. The price alone stops the average person from buying any gold in a new game. thus the economies are generally safe because the majority of people are not willing ot pay that price for gold. As to gold sellers deteriorating the economy more...there is no way that the economy is not just going to deteriorate. Even without gold sellers there is nothing in games to stop the economy from falling apart when more thank 30% of the population is at max level and starts alts. From that point on the economy is shit. Nothing can save it. The games own design tells new players if you want to enjoy the game you will have to buy gold or have someone give you gold. Otherwise you will have shit for items. There is no incentive for new players to WoW, EQ2, LOTR to not buy gold.
My question to WSIMike so if a bot horde a mob, a resource, or spends its time hawking an auction house for items it is bad...but if a player doing it for themselves it is ok?????
Odviously if this is the problem with the economy it is the games design that is screwed up not the bot. Because as far as impact on the economy a bot or person do it it is the same. You should be pissed at the makers of the game not the bots. They created a game based on a shitty economy.
From WSIMike:
When someone never farms, never crafts, never works the auction house, never camps rare spawns, or anything else that could make them money, yet seems to have an endless supply of money to have the best gear at all times... it's kinda obvious.
LOLOLOLOLOL all the crap you bitched about a bot doing...and now you are complaining that people should be human bots.....lolololololololol.
Er, sorry for the double-post, but who are you to decide what's the endgame?!
You are obviously referring to some WoW-like game here. But there are other MMOs with other objectives and other types of players enjoying them.
Yes, I'm defending my own fun in a game, As I enjoy crafting, thank you very much. The difference is that I don't just disregard raids as meaningless, just not my cup of tea.
Or Everquest, Everquest Online Adventures, Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Final Fantasy XI, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer Online, Lineage 2, Aion, City of Heroes, Champions Online, or ,without having to go one any further, pretty much any MMORPG on the market today released within the last ten years. That isn't my definition of what the main focus of the game is. I would love for you to attempt argue with me that those games aren't based off of grouping with other players in some fashion, be it doing dungeon runs, public quests, PvP, or something as simple as standing in one spot for three hours camping mobs, in order to obtain gear or status to further progress your character.
All these games have crafting in some form, but it is in no real way the main focus of the game, and it is my belief that if largely doing away with many secondary aspects, which, in some ways may have a negative effect on the game's economy, causing economic disparity, would improve what I perceive to be main focus of the game for the vast majority of players as I have already described in detail.
If you don't like my solution for the problem, go back and play some other game. It isn't like I'm trying to rip the crafting aspect right out of the genre. Any of the games I listed and hundreds more will be around for years to come, and if crafting is what you get the most enjoyment out of, more power to you. Have fun in any other MMORPG out there.
@ SuperXero89; I must thank you for going into so much detail in arguing your point. I apologize for not quoting you but this things can get out of hand when such large posts are involved.
We seem to agree on the overall mechanisms by which gold buying/selling works as well as in its effects although our disagreement seems to be on the matter of degree or proportion. Now as really i know of no way to obtain any sort of reliable data on this issue i may afraid we may only speak of what empyrical experience reveals to each of us. To me twinking is not so much an issue (i usually only level one alt) but i do see a lot of unexperienced people at higher levels, which make for either incompetent partners in raids or abusive lowbie gankers in pvp. I've also often encountered situations in which a gold buying spree by a number of people at a certain level range will dramatically affect prices of weps and armors. I know in this instances that gold buyers are involved because, much as some people in this forums, they often brag about it and seem almost pleased with the results. While some people may outlevel the range at which this distortions ocur, endgame is a diferent scenario and price hikes at this stage may drive valuable and experienced players out of the game. Having to party with buffoons and cheaters, instead of the good people i leveled with, decidedly has a negative effect on my gameplay.
As for your proposal, while i understand that to some players the economy may be a disagreeable and unimportant aspect of gameplay i think im in a majority that considers it esential. Its not just that merchanting, crafting or playing the market may be pleasurable activities in themselves, but they provide another way to have an impact and interaction with the rest of the player base. I myself do not set up player shops, but they are one dear element of the game to me. Despite the lag and the inanity in chat they may produce, they also bring cities to life. Some people irl dont like market places (they dislike the crowding, the excess of vulgarity, etc) but i do. They bring a great element to the game even if you need to haggle or spend time looking to take advantage of bargains. The economy is one of the most basic levels in which people interact and to me it would be a stepback to attack the richness and complexity of persistant worlds by removing this element. Guilds and forums have brought politics into virtual worlds, we also have our artists in media like machinima. We have our scientists in the people who use math to calculate everything from drop rates to defense ratings, historians, sportsmen, explorers. People fighting for human rights (ive seen gay pride parades on an mmo) even celebrities (anyone remember Leroy Jenkins). Merchants are as important a part of our worlds as anyone else. And we have our own petty criminals, people like gold buyers. And before anyone tries to turn my argument on its head saying cheaters also have their place (even if what they do hurts everyone else) i must say i would be alright with these "criminals" if they gave some of us the means to track them down and bring them to justice.
That may be the solution im ofering, give us means to investigate whos buying gold and put a bounty on their heads. I guarantee many of us would dedicate ourselves to ridding our MMOs of cheaters.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
Caleveira you talk like gold buyers buy levels. That is just stupid. That is people that are alt-o-holics. A person that gets to high level and then spends all his cash raising every class up to high level is what you do not like. That has little to do with gold buyers. You are just trying to lump that on them. If your problem is with people making a lot of alts and getting them to high level and not being specialized in all their alts then complain about games making more than one character slot per server. Your problem is not gold sellers it is number of character slots.
Please bring up points relative to gold sellers if you are complaining about them. Also at end game...I do not know what game you are playing but most of the end game gear is stuff that can not be sold or bought. It must be gotten from raid bosses. So I do not know what you are talking about gold sellers effecting end game significantly. I have never knows anyone that said they need to buy gold to get that end game gear they wanted. People talk about gold buying to get items and skills while leveling.
First, thanks WSIMike for a really good explanation on how gold sellers affect a game. I'd just add that they have to get the in-game money they sell from some source: hence, selling items at high price also has that advantage to them.
SuperXero, the number of games who are like WoW is exactly like I used the term "WoW-LIKE game", not specifically "WoW".
Because, supposedly, the vast majority of players prefer endgame to crafting, does not meaning crafters are a small minority. To spell it out, 49% is still aminority compared to 51%, but it's also almost half the population. And no, I don,t pretend crafters are 49% of the player base, that is just an example!
Raiders being possibly the majority doesn't even mean that they don't enjoy crafting once in a while. This probably means crafting won't just be scraped out of MMOs.
And yes, I'm already on other games, thank you Captain Obvious. I never really like WoW and I play Dofus. Here too, grouping for big bosses is a big part of the game, but the crafting system is developed enough to please me. I also played casual games or MMOs like galaXseeds, because I'm not much of a munchkin.
However, as I said in the post you quoted, the fact that I don't like raiding doesn't mean I consider it useless or secondary, which is what YOU are doing with cradfting... To each his own, as they say!
What I cannot agree to disagree on, is that gold buying and selling is cheating in most games, as outlines by EULA and diverses rules. As I've said in another post, if it legal within the game, I have no problems with it - as long as it is the publisher selling the gold, not some third-party which is necessarily in violation of intellectual property rights...
I would like, on the other hand, for some to really, logically explain how crafting unbalance the game economy! And no, playing crafting, collecting or looting is not the same as bots:
- bots are alteration of the program, again in violation of EULA , property rights, and game rules
- bots have means to be instanteously on the spot (because they altered the program), whereas a live "camper" for a certain spawn have to find the mob or may just be checking something else as the mob spawns, thus missing it.
- bots can be on 24/7, without even teh mandatory break to eat and other bodily urges 9like sleep).
To me, the whole economy is just another competitive field, just like, level, gear, or which monster you can beat. Anyone suddenly getting mass amounts of money without actually playing the economy is cheating and very unnerving, just like someone who would suddenly jump from level 1 to 50 through means external to the game is cheating.
EDIT: Caleveira also has an interesting take on economy. Yes it does bring life to our persistant worlds.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
deleted
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Gold buyers INSANELY RUIN THE ECONOMY IN MMO´s, i played wow from starters, i saw how it happened, its more insane than most people think. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla before goldbuyers, not even above 1 gold. stack of copper bars in wow vanilla with goldbuyers ( a while before TBC). over 5 gold. thats just 1 simple example, and no doubtly it ruins game economy in all MMO's....
Which you fail to understand that almost every single MMORPG on the market plays like WOW in some way.
Or it could be that WoW and every other game out plays like UO/EQ in some way.
In the immortal words of House Ways and Means Chairman Charlie Rangel, "If you are not cheating...you are not playing the game."
Oh yes and most of the player base being on alts with near unlimited gold had nothing to do with this....what a joke. When BC started gold was as easy to get as oxygen. Spending 5-10 gold to power level my new alt in the new beginner lands had nothing to do with the suppend spike in prices...get a clue.
@ WSIMike ; I would also like to thank you for your post, very good job.
@ Horusra; Not all games are the same, many have tradeable items that provide a small amount of xp. When traded in bulk they allow you to actually buy levels, ive seen this. Also in many games you need to collect mats for your endgear, while the gear itself is bound the mats rarely are. And even in those games that dont allow this you can buy acounts which i take it to you is a far diferent issue but to me its not; theyre both cheating. Its using irl means to achieve ingame objectives, which in games that dont allow it cannot be justified. Gold buyers are not people i would trust with respecting any rules.
And as for games encouraging cheating, thats just bs. Anything hard "encourages" cheating... people do have a choice, many players in equal circumstances dont cheat. No one is "forced" to do anything dishonest on an MMO. You can either manage with subpar gear or outlevel the twinks (most dont make it far).
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
please name your game that is using crafter gear as end game material? lets stop being vague here. Start nameing games. You speak in very vague terms about stuff and never point out specifics. Eve online has no end game gear, WoW is all raid or PvP gear with only potions and enchants being end game (but enchants and gems are only one time costs), LOTR's is raid gear, EQ2 is raid gear...so what games are you playing?
Which you fail to understand that almost every single MMORPG on the market plays like WOW in some way.
Or it could be that WoW and every other game out plays like UO/EQ in some way.
True, but the point remains the same. The guy's blanket statement pretty much nailed a description for nearly the entire MMORPG genre.
it was cheap in the beginning because everyone was mining it. There was a huge supply of copper. Not many people are mining it now, so supply is down prices raise... this is just economics
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I have read through the pages of this thread...and one overwhelming similarity pops up throughout... the people who say they never have, or the ones who say they have just once... Most of you are flat out liars, just like masturbation...NO ONE ever admits to it, but 90% of the population does it... Sad, truly sad...
Hell I just started LOTR and I bought gold...no way I could match the prices of stuff now in the game. The game all but screams for you to buy gold.
I play LOTRO off and on and gold is hard to get but i never stooped to buying it. Sorry.
If it makes you feel better about your cheating then believe it by all means, as you are entitled to feeling good about yourself as well as entitled to do whatever you want in a game or in life.