I think it was Raph Koster who came up with the terms "Theme Park" and "Sandbox", or at least popularized them. When SWG was in development, he described the Rebel Base as a Theme Park, along with a few other areas of concentrated content.
So WoW may have created the most successful, and highly concentrated, theme park game, elements of Theme Park design had dawned in SWG, ironically enough.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?
I think UO was the only other game out at this time? (maybe asherons call was as well) so people had a limited choice. they either went UO (which was only sandbox) or the very few theme park. and they were brand new so anything a person played had the shiny new "this is something ive never experienced before" thought.
2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?
No
3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
No one could replicate UO. The customization, skills, ability to do ANYTHING in game... Its hard to do and keep it balanced but some how they managed it very nicely. The fact today is that sandbox games are niche and the player base is extremely small. This reason is why you dont get huge companies making them and have to rely on indie companies to make them (reason for this stated in last paragraph)
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
As stated before, MMO's were new. People didn't know what to expect and anything was like holy crap this is amazing feel. EQ also was a huge time sink and addictive (hence the more common name of "EverCrack"). Level cap took forever to reach, then came AA points which took just as long. New content being pumped out (which some can say ruined the game with all the elitism/lack of working on things that had already been put in). TONS of classes and races. It was a great game.
No one could compete with what UO had done so no one tried. No new sandboxes = no new players being brought into it = sandbox games turning into a small niche because no one has effectively been able to rival what UO did 12 years ago. Its rather sad.
Now with that said I will speak of why themeparks are what they are today....WoW has kind of ruined anyone who starts out with the game. People have become pampered with all of the content in game and how extremely easy everything is to do. Most people dont take into consideration that WoW has had 7-8 years of polish, 2 expansions with a 3rd on the way, and literally millions and millions of dollars thrown at it. Most MMO's arent backed by the kind of money that blizzard has so the game is going to be seen as lacking, especially when people forget that the game they are hyping up/starting to play is BRAND NEW with just the basic game being released.
The ease of use and simplicity of WoW (i think i read somewhere a person made his 5 or 6 year old brother grind for him....) brings in new people to the genre but they then are stuck on the "everything HAS to be as good or better than WoW or I wont play it" mentality. They dont give games a chance to grow before ditching them. When this happens games start to get their dev team torn apart to skeleton crews and then the polish and content that would normally be put in the game quickly with a full dev team comes out at a snails pace. WoW effectively ruins new games because of the mind set most people have after playing it. WoW is the bane of the modern day mmo release.
I think it's a stereotype or simple elitism that makes everyone harp on how easy or dumbed down WoW is. Anyone that has played mmorpgs for years will think any mmorpg is easy. WoW has some fairly complicated content. Some gamers have gotten it down to a science. When they discuss stats and how wearing this affects that or the percentages of something or whatever, it comes out like rocket science. Your basic 5 year old may be able to approach a mob and spam a button, but they won't be able to coordinate their role during a raid or even a run of the mill dungeon. I'm not a WoW fanboi but when I read "hardcore" gamers talking about how you can solo in WoW all the way to level cap, or you can reach endgame in 3 days, I have to call foul. Everytime I read an anti WoW post WoW gets easier and easier. I wander if by easy some mean that theres no wandering around trying to figure out what to do next? It is a linear game. Theres no argument. But I think people, in an effort to sound "hardcore" exagerrate what they consider negative aspects of WoW gameplay quite a bit
People need to relize that back then its was basically UO and EQ. There were fans of both or either, back then the choices were so limited there was not much bitching about anything hence the communities where awsome. Todays times, like people QQ and are entitled to everything. That is part of the reason original palyers of those games say there were some of the best times ever in MMO history. Amazing what happens when more and more people are involved in somthing. The more poeple the worse it is. Or is it the type of people?
One thing I have noticed different that has changed from the days of EQ, is the player base now is super lazy and arrogant. No one wants their game they play monthly for to have any challenge or take any amount of time to achieve goals in. I find it silly.
I still remember the day I first set foot in Qeynos and fought those rats/snakes and eventually skellies and onto Blackburrow. I guess I'll never feel that way again playing an mmorpg.
The use of the terms Themepark and Sandbox have degraded into meaningless labels that are used more often to deride or cast aspersions onto a product than to be used to accurately describe a product. Using either term for any product generally does the product a disservice and isn't fully accurate as every game has aspects of both to them. Using labels is an easy way and a lazy way to describe something without having to go to the effort of actually understanding it or even knowing anything about it.
Most of the people tossing these terms around are more interested in pushing a point of view and not actually discussing aspects of a specific game so it is easier to deride a game by using a label instead of actually providing meaningful disscussion.
Just because a game has levels and classes doesnt always mean it has to be a 'themepark' MMO.
Look at old school EQ. The game had levels and classes, but it wasnt a game that told you were to go and what to do. It was really up to the player to discover these things. Thats where the whole 'themepark' theme doesnt work.
A 'Themepark' MMO works like an actual themepark. You start at the entrance gate, are handed a map and follow a pretty distinct path through the park and end up at the exit. If you start to feel lost you can ask someone where you are and how to get to the next ride.
Now back to EQ. While EQ had a lot of what people consider to be 'themepark' the game really didnt lead you anywhere. Hell, sometimes even going from a starting zone to the next zone over led you from a lvl 1-10 area to a lvl 30-40 area. Point is, no NPC or map in the game told you where to progress to next. Does that make EQ a 'sandbox' style game? Not really, but no where near what is a true 'Themepark'.
Even most of the games that came after EQ really didnt fit the whole 'themepark' theme. Sure they had levels and some even had quests. But the games were designed in a way that made the players explore the game and find the fun/challenge.
When WoW came out is when we started seeing the essence of what a 'themepark' game is. Blizzard designed WoW to be easier for people to jump into, and took a lot of player thinking out of the game. It was designed to allow a player to just hop in and play without having to learn a ton of mechanics. The layout of the game helped people progress easily from area to area, hiding a road map in teh questing system. The whole point of exploration was removed, left instead with a GPS and gas station attendants pointing you onward to your next destination. This is what made WoW popular to the masses. It was a game that really involved little thought and allowed people to have fun from start to finish. It also was far more forgiving in its playstyle than most MMOs that came before it.
Was it a bad thing? Of course not. Did WoW ruin the MMO genre? Again, no.
If anything you can blame the players and a lot of the MMO design teams for the current state of MMOs.
Take players for example. The players will complain about the way a game is designed and often complain about how its "Just like WoW". But when these players are given a game that tries to be different, they whine and complain that "WoW had this and you should too". And I am not talking about polish here. They ask for features that made WoW the game they didnt really enjoy. Once the devs start to cave in on these demands, the players start to call the game a WoW clone. Its a never ending cycle.
As for the teams that design MMOs, they tend to be a bit more at fault. They aim to make a game and will try to bring in as many players as they can from the start. But in most cases they do so by asking themselves "What Would Blizzard Do...". Its alright to try to figure out what the other guy did to make his game work, but most times they end up being way off base. They look at the current incarnation of the game and start from there. Instead of looking back at the reasons why Blizzard chose the path they did when making WoW, they focus on what WoW is and start building their game on that. Thing is, most people playing WoW do so because newer games coming out feel more like a copy (often times a bad one) of the game they are currently playing, so why bother switching?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You cannot compare the mentality of gaming from back in the EQ days with now a days kids roaming around in games.
Back in those days it was VERY few who had high speed internet and/or could afford it,so it was usually the more mature minded people playing.
There was no care about PVP or looking beyond to end game and again worrying about PVP,people joined for the excitement of exploring the game and what it had to offer.The pvp minded people were playing things like Doom and Wolfenstein,Quake,UT99 came out the same year,that is where PVP players were.
I think too many developers got the wrong impression about gaming and MMO's from the early days because ,there was not that many gamers in general.so a game like AO may have been a big hit if released the same time WOW was.
It is only the last few years that people are trying to dissect games into what works and what does not,this is all false reasoning,it is not the reason for failure or crying,the reason lies within the individual,imo most are not gamers,they are egotistical people looking for a platform to brag or show off.In the old days that is where PVP people went to show they were better/more skilled,PVE games like EQ were about the exact opposite,it did not matter what type of MMO it was as long as it was not PVP based.
EQ offered that GIANT world that left tons of room for non linear exploration,something PVP games lacked.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There was no "sandbox fanboism or hate" back when these games "came out" they were the first of their kind...People were not thinking in those terms yet. There where only 3 MMO's at the time so there wasn't this "sandbox games vs themepark" thinking going on yet. That thinking didn't evolve for a couple of years. Most of the were like "wow these are cool games"
To add to that, each of the gmaes were distinctly differnt so there was no category of any kind other than 'MMORPG." EQ is a level and class based game, UO is a skill-based game and AC is a mix of the two.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
How did I handle it? I read up on the three MMORPGs then available, and chose the one I thought would best fit my (sandboxy + 3D, apparently) play style. And it wasn't EQ, it was AC. That was a decision I've never regretted.
Most people generally consider World of Warcraft to be the start of the themepark trend. EQ, while on a leveling treadmill, still gave the player a ton of freedom in how and where he or she wanted to advance. That's just what I've always thought anyway.
The original game had a whole two dungeons to level from 40-50 in, max level being 50. These two dungeons were usually overcamped with lists to join. That is you zoned in and asked to be added to the lists for the various spots people were sitting and then went out and killed guards somewhere. People didn't roam around the dungeon til completion. Lets say you got the ghoul magi, you just sat in his room and maybe pulled the hands and waited for respawn.
I guess some of you may not have been around then, or maybe your comparing your theme park to games like LotRO and WoW which is on the complete end of the theme park spectrum. I will say EQ, as theme park as it was.. and yes.. it was.. doesnt compare to what we have now.
Sorry bud, EQ1 was not a theme park MMO especially pre Luclin. There are elements EQ1 introduced that were dumbed down for the masses in today's titles though. In their raw form some elements were implemented because the game was so unforgiving in the beginning.
There was no hand holding, lighted quest markers, the map filled in as you visited an area. You had to actually use you're compass. Travel was long, arduous and fraught with danger. Certain areas you couldn't even go to after dark due to Guard patrols, faction, giants or dragons.
Nope, doesn't sound like any Theme park title today at all. You logged in expecting to die that night it was a given. You had to find high level friends to help retrieve your armor if you died or it would decay.
None of these elements exist in today's games. With Luclin teleportaion spires and that was due in large part to porters (Wizzy & Druid) who were price gouging. Even after you got a port you still had a 2-3 zone run to most places.
Like another poster said the games back then were so difficult in their own way there was far less fanboy garbage. All of the fab four (UO, EQ, AC1 DAOC). had one area of game play the others couldn't match.
I had hard rock UO PVP friends baffled at the complexity of EQ's raids. I had EQ friends who marveled at the crafting and skill system of AC1. And everyone knew they couldn't match DAOC's RVR.
Each of the Fab four had areas it excelled in and garnered respect. There's allot of revisionist history going on trying to label EQ1 a theme park MMO. People only get away with such nonsense because most old timers no longer play MMO's. Or frequent boards like these.
I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.
If I come to think of it, I really believe SWG NGE was the true catalyst behind the Sandbox vs Themepark argument, because of alot of very vocal SWG vets who saw their beloved game ruined because many themepark elements were introduced in SWG and many sandbox and socializing elements were removed.
All this because Lucas Arts and Sony Online Entertainment were inspired by WoW, the example of how a Themepark should look like if you were to create one, what they of course failed to understand was that you really can't change the fundamentals of a game like SWG long after release, and they were not able to "replace" the vets with fresh meat as fast as they had hoped.
Personally, I really don't hate themepark MMO's, but I hate that publishers looked at WoW and felt it was the only way to do things, for new mmo's, but also for existing ones. That is also why EVE players tell you to go back to WoW n00b, if you start asking to dumb down the game, or change the fundamentals.
I really believe that the only real breakthrough will be when Blizzard releases their Sci-Fi mmo, and it has alot of socializing and sandbox elements. Everyone and their brother will jump on it ( me included ) we can say to all the dumb Publishers " we told you so! " The only downside would be that Blizzard would have the complete mmo market cornered.
A man can dream, can't he?
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.
If I come to think of it, I really believe SWG NGE was the true catalyst behind the Sandbox vs Themepark argument, because of alot of very vocal SWG vets who saw their beloved game ruined because many themepark elements were introduced in SWG and many sandbox and socializing elements were removed.
All this because Lucas Arts and Sony Online Entertainment were inspired by WoW, the example of how a Themepark should look like if you were to create one, what they of course failed to understand was that you really can't change the fundamentals of a game like SWG long after release, and they were not able to "replace" the vets with fresh meat as fast as they had hoped.
Personally, I really don't hate themepark MMO's, but I hate that publishers looked at WoW and felt it was the only way to do things, for new mmo's, but also for existing ones. That is also why EVE players tell you to go back to WoW n00b, if you start asking to dumb down the game, or change the fundamentals.
I really believe that the only real breakthrough will be when Blizzard releases their Sci-Fi mmo, and it has alot of socializing and sandbox elements. Everyone and their brother will jump on it ( me included ) we can say to all the dumb Publishers " we told you so! " The only downside would be that Blizzard would have the complete mmo market cornered.
A man can dream, can't he?
It's really the same story with EQ, but SOE started adding Theme Park features from 2002 on, so earllier than SWG.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
Make a good enough game and you'll get people to switch from their current game or genre.
I think part of their success has to do with the addicting style of the game. That is, no matter what you never had the best items even if you spent every moment of everyday playing EQ you could never be the best. Even in WoW you can get all the best gear if you work hard enough.
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day? 2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW? 3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
Did you ever play EverQuest before the Planes of Power expansion?
Something tells me that you didn't.
EverQuest was just one bing world where you could do whatever you wanted and quests were almost non-existant.
Comments
I think it was Raph Koster who came up with the terms "Theme Park" and "Sandbox", or at least popularized them. When SWG was in development, he described the Rebel Base as a Theme Park, along with a few other areas of concentrated content.
So WoW may have created the most successful, and highly concentrated, theme park game, elements of Theme Park design had dawned in SWG, ironically enough.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?
I think UO was the only other game out at this time? (maybe asherons call was as well) so people had a limited choice. they either went UO (which was only sandbox) or the very few theme park. and they were brand new so anything a person played had the shiny new "this is something ive never experienced before" thought.
2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?
No
3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?
No one could replicate UO. The customization, skills, ability to do ANYTHING in game... Its hard to do and keep it balanced but some how they managed it very nicely. The fact today is that sandbox games are niche and the player base is extremely small. This reason is why you dont get huge companies making them and have to rely on indie companies to make them (reason for this stated in last paragraph)
I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
As stated before, MMO's were new. People didn't know what to expect and anything was like holy crap this is amazing feel. EQ also was a huge time sink and addictive (hence the more common name of "EverCrack"). Level cap took forever to reach, then came AA points which took just as long. New content being pumped out (which some can say ruined the game with all the elitism/lack of working on things that had already been put in). TONS of classes and races. It was a great game.
No one could compete with what UO had done so no one tried. No new sandboxes = no new players being brought into it = sandbox games turning into a small niche because no one has effectively been able to rival what UO did 12 years ago. Its rather sad.
Now with that said I will speak of why themeparks are what they are today....WoW has kind of ruined anyone who starts out with the game. People have become pampered with all of the content in game and how extremely easy everything is to do. Most people dont take into consideration that WoW has had 7-8 years of polish, 2 expansions with a 3rd on the way, and literally millions and millions of dollars thrown at it. Most MMO's arent backed by the kind of money that blizzard has so the game is going to be seen as lacking, especially when people forget that the game they are hyping up/starting to play is BRAND NEW with just the basic game being released.
The ease of use and simplicity of WoW (i think i read somewhere a person made his 5 or 6 year old brother grind for him....) brings in new people to the genre but they then are stuck on the "everything HAS to be as good or better than WoW or I wont play it" mentality. They dont give games a chance to grow before ditching them. When this happens games start to get their dev team torn apart to skeleton crews and then the polish and content that would normally be put in the game quickly with a full dev team comes out at a snails pace. WoW effectively ruins new games because of the mind set most people have after playing it. WoW is the bane of the modern day mmo release.
I think it's a stereotype or simple elitism that makes everyone harp on how easy or dumbed down WoW is. Anyone that has played mmorpgs for years will think any mmorpg is easy. WoW has some fairly complicated content. Some gamers have gotten it down to a science. When they discuss stats and how wearing this affects that or the percentages of something or whatever, it comes out like rocket science. Your basic 5 year old may be able to approach a mob and spam a button, but they won't be able to coordinate their role during a raid or even a run of the mill dungeon. I'm not a WoW fanboi but when I read "hardcore" gamers talking about how you can solo in WoW all the way to level cap, or you can reach endgame in 3 days, I have to call foul. Everytime I read an anti WoW post WoW gets easier and easier. I wander if by easy some mean that theres no wandering around trying to figure out what to do next? It is a linear game. Theres no argument. But I think people, in an effort to sound "hardcore" exagerrate what they consider negative aspects of WoW gameplay quite a bit
People need to relize that back then its was basically UO and EQ. There were fans of both or either, back then the choices were so limited there was not much bitching about anything hence the communities where awsome. Todays times, like people QQ and are entitled to everything. That is part of the reason original palyers of those games say there were some of the best times ever in MMO history. Amazing what happens when more and more people are involved in somthing. The more poeple the worse it is. Or is it the type of people?
One thing I have noticed different that has changed from the days of EQ, is the player base now is super lazy and arrogant. No one wants their game they play monthly for to have any challenge or take any amount of time to achieve goals in. I find it silly.
I still remember the day I first set foot in Qeynos and fought those rats/snakes and eventually skellies and onto Blackburrow. I guess I'll never feel that way again playing an mmorpg.
The use of the terms Themepark and Sandbox have degraded into meaningless labels that are used more often to deride or cast aspersions onto a product than to be used to accurately describe a product. Using either term for any product generally does the product a disservice and isn't fully accurate as every game has aspects of both to them. Using labels is an easy way and a lazy way to describe something without having to go to the effort of actually understanding it or even knowing anything about it.
Most of the people tossing these terms around are more interested in pushing a point of view and not actually discussing aspects of a specific game so it is easier to deride a game by using a label instead of actually providing meaningful disscussion.
Just because a game has levels and classes doesnt always mean it has to be a 'themepark' MMO.
Look at old school EQ. The game had levels and classes, but it wasnt a game that told you were to go and what to do. It was really up to the player to discover these things. Thats where the whole 'themepark' theme doesnt work.
A 'Themepark' MMO works like an actual themepark. You start at the entrance gate, are handed a map and follow a pretty distinct path through the park and end up at the exit. If you start to feel lost you can ask someone where you are and how to get to the next ride.
Now back to EQ. While EQ had a lot of what people consider to be 'themepark' the game really didnt lead you anywhere. Hell, sometimes even going from a starting zone to the next zone over led you from a lvl 1-10 area to a lvl 30-40 area. Point is, no NPC or map in the game told you where to progress to next. Does that make EQ a 'sandbox' style game? Not really, but no where near what is a true 'Themepark'.
Even most of the games that came after EQ really didnt fit the whole 'themepark' theme. Sure they had levels and some even had quests. But the games were designed in a way that made the players explore the game and find the fun/challenge.
When WoW came out is when we started seeing the essence of what a 'themepark' game is. Blizzard designed WoW to be easier for people to jump into, and took a lot of player thinking out of the game. It was designed to allow a player to just hop in and play without having to learn a ton of mechanics. The layout of the game helped people progress easily from area to area, hiding a road map in teh questing system. The whole point of exploration was removed, left instead with a GPS and gas station attendants pointing you onward to your next destination. This is what made WoW popular to the masses. It was a game that really involved little thought and allowed people to have fun from start to finish. It also was far more forgiving in its playstyle than most MMOs that came before it.
Was it a bad thing? Of course not. Did WoW ruin the MMO genre? Again, no.
If anything you can blame the players and a lot of the MMO design teams for the current state of MMOs.
Take players for example. The players will complain about the way a game is designed and often complain about how its "Just like WoW". But when these players are given a game that tries to be different, they whine and complain that "WoW had this and you should too". And I am not talking about polish here. They ask for features that made WoW the game they didnt really enjoy. Once the devs start to cave in on these demands, the players start to call the game a WoW clone. Its a never ending cycle.
As for the teams that design MMOs, they tend to be a bit more at fault. They aim to make a game and will try to bring in as many players as they can from the start. But in most cases they do so by asking themselves "What Would Blizzard Do...". Its alright to try to figure out what the other guy did to make his game work, but most times they end up being way off base. They look at the current incarnation of the game and start from there. Instead of looking back at the reasons why Blizzard chose the path they did when making WoW, they focus on what WoW is and start building their game on that. Thing is, most people playing WoW do so because newer games coming out feel more like a copy (often times a bad one) of the game they are currently playing, so why bother switching?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You cannot compare the mentality of gaming from back in the EQ days with now a days kids roaming around in games.
Back in those days it was VERY few who had high speed internet and/or could afford it,so it was usually the more mature minded people playing.
There was no care about PVP or looking beyond to end game and again worrying about PVP,people joined for the excitement of exploring the game and what it had to offer.The pvp minded people were playing things like Doom and Wolfenstein,Quake,UT99 came out the same year,that is where PVP players were.
I think too many developers got the wrong impression about gaming and MMO's from the early days because ,there was not that many gamers in general.so a game like AO may have been a big hit if released the same time WOW was.
It is only the last few years that people are trying to dissect games into what works and what does not,this is all false reasoning,it is not the reason for failure or crying,the reason lies within the individual,imo most are not gamers,they are egotistical people looking for a platform to brag or show off.In the old days that is where PVP people went to show they were better/more skilled,PVE games like EQ were about the exact opposite,it did not matter what type of MMO it was as long as it was not PVP based.
EQ offered that GIANT world that left tons of room for non linear exploration,something PVP games lacked.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
To add to that, each of the gmaes were distinctly differnt so there was no category of any kind other than 'MMORPG." EQ is a level and class based game, UO is a skill-based game and AC is a mix of the two.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
How did I handle it? I read up on the three MMORPGs then available, and chose the one I thought would best fit my (sandboxy + 3D, apparently) play style. And it wasn't EQ, it was AC. That was a decision I've never regretted.
The original game had a whole two dungeons to level from 40-50 in, max level being 50. These two dungeons were usually overcamped with lists to join. That is you zoned in and asked to be added to the lists for the various spots people were sitting and then went out and killed guards somewhere. People didn't roam around the dungeon til completion. Lets say you got the ghoul magi, you just sat in his room and maybe pulled the hands and waited for respawn.
Sorry bud, EQ1 was not a theme park MMO especially pre Luclin. There are elements EQ1 introduced that were dumbed down for the masses in today's titles though. In their raw form some elements were implemented because the game was so unforgiving in the beginning.
There was no hand holding, lighted quest markers, the map filled in as you visited an area. You had to actually use you're compass. Travel was long, arduous and fraught with danger. Certain areas you couldn't even go to after dark due to Guard patrols, faction, giants or dragons.
Nope, doesn't sound like any Theme park title today at all. You logged in expecting to die that night it was a given. You had to find high level friends to help retrieve your armor if you died or it would decay.
None of these elements exist in today's games. With Luclin teleportaion spires and that was due in large part to porters (Wizzy & Druid) who were price gouging. Even after you got a port you still had a 2-3 zone run to most places.
Like another poster said the games back then were so difficult in their own way there was far less fanboy garbage. All of the fab four (UO, EQ, AC1 DAOC). had one area of game play the others couldn't match.
I had hard rock UO PVP friends baffled at the complexity of EQ's raids. I had EQ friends who marveled at the crafting and skill system of AC1. And everyone knew they couldn't match DAOC's RVR.
Each of the Fab four had areas it excelled in and garnered respect. There's allot of revisionist history going on trying to label EQ1 a theme park MMO. People only get away with such nonsense because most old timers no longer play MMO's. Or frequent boards like these.
Crazy kids..
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
If I come to think of it, I really believe SWG NGE was the true catalyst behind the Sandbox vs Themepark argument, because of alot of very vocal SWG vets who saw their beloved game ruined because many themepark elements were introduced in SWG and many sandbox and socializing elements were removed.
All this because Lucas Arts and Sony Online Entertainment were inspired by WoW, the example of how a Themepark should look like if you were to create one, what they of course failed to understand was that you really can't change the fundamentals of a game like SWG long after release, and they were not able to "replace" the vets with fresh meat as fast as they had hoped.
Personally, I really don't hate themepark MMO's, but I hate that publishers looked at WoW and felt it was the only way to do things, for new mmo's, but also for existing ones. That is also why EVE players tell you to go back to WoW n00b, if you start asking to dumb down the game, or change the fundamentals.
I really believe that the only real breakthrough will be when Blizzard releases their Sci-Fi mmo, and it has alot of socializing and sandbox elements. Everyone and their brother will jump on it ( me included
) we can say to all the dumb Publishers " we told you so! " 
The only downside would be that Blizzard would have the complete mmo market cornered.
A man can dream, can't he?
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
If I come to think of it, I really believe SWG NGE was the true catalyst behind the Sandbox vs Themepark argument, because of alot of very vocal SWG vets who saw their beloved game ruined because many themepark elements were introduced in SWG and many sandbox and socializing elements were removed.
All this because Lucas Arts and Sony Online Entertainment were inspired by WoW, the example of how a Themepark should look like if you were to create one, what they of course failed to understand was that you really can't change the fundamentals of a game like SWG long after release, and they were not able to "replace" the vets with fresh meat as fast as they had hoped.
Personally, I really don't hate themepark MMO's, but I hate that publishers looked at WoW and felt it was the only way to do things, for new mmo's, but also for existing ones. That is also why EVE players tell you to go back to WoW n00b, if you start asking to dumb down the game, or change the fundamentals.
I really believe that the only real breakthrough will be when Blizzard releases their Sci-Fi mmo, and it has alot of socializing and sandbox elements. Everyone and their brother will jump on it ( me included
) we can say to all the dumb Publishers " we told you so! " 
The only downside would be that Blizzard would have the complete mmo market cornered.
A man can dream, can't he?
It's really the same story with EQ, but SOE started adding Theme Park features from 2002 on, so earllier than SWG.
Make a good enough game and you'll get people to switch from their current game or genre.
I think part of their success has to do with the addicting style of the game. That is, no matter what you never had the best items even if you spent every moment of everyday playing EQ you could never be the best. Even in WoW you can get all the best gear if you work hard enough.
Did you ever play EverQuest before the Planes of Power expansion?
Something tells me that you didn't.
EverQuest was just one bing world where you could do whatever you wanted and quests were almost non-existant.
Ah... how I miss those golden days.