Originally posted by tman5 Obviously, both you and Drachasor missed my main point, so I highlighted it so you could reread it.
I also highlighted my secondary point, which goes right to the question of whether Star Trek is the right property to tackle given the obvious constraints of time and money.
Cryptic is not alone in making promises they cannot keep. That is MMO industry standard and will continue that way until MMO customers refuse to accept less than promised.
But, as has been said, MMOs are like crack and some tweakers don't care if their junk is cut with bleach as long as they get their next fix.
I agree that Star Trek can't be done in a short amount of time, and would probably take a bit longer than another MMO. However, 2 years isn't enough for ANY good MMO, regardless of the IP. CO is much the same in terms of development and it is also racked with problems. In fact, there have been no games made in such a short amount of time that didn't bleed massive numbers of customers (assuming they had any significant number of people buy it). So, what I was trying to say is some time and money constraints just can't get the job done, no matter what. Cryptic seems to be operating under those and so the game they have made looks to be lacking lots of content and generally of somewhat shoddy construction.
If they had only promised what they could do, and didn't spin, spin, spin, then there'd be a lot less excitement about the game. They are handling the media aspect fairly well for whatever that is worth.
Anyhow, I don't disagree with what you said. I just wanted to emphasize the absurdly short time they've tried to make this game and how that wouldn't work for ANY MMO.
Until Cryptic makes Klingons a fully fleshed out (meaning History, Storyline, PvP AND PvE content) playable race I will not be playing.
Im fine with Klingons (and their faction) being created and directed as more PvP centric. In fact I WANT to kill Federation.
But not in this half-assed sideshow redheaded stepchild incarnation.
I want Klingons to be a true faction/race. To do any less is..well.. dishonorable.
They want to take a year to do that fine, but until then I wont even consider touching it.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Meh, comparing the size of the Star Trek IP to the size of the Star Wars IP, I'd have to say they're at least equal, if not tipped on the ST side. So why can Bioware put out a (reputedly) monstrous game while Cryptic can only put out a moderate one?
I'd have to say a major factor is the difference in the support each company is getting. Bioware has LucasArts all behind this game, while Cryptic is getting what? I've honestly heard nothing about the support from Paramount other than "they gave us a lot of stuff to look at and read".
Another difference would be the capabilities of the two companies. Bioware has a ton of content creation, while Cryptic has their engine. Both are advantages, but the ability to create content is directly responsible for how "big "a game you have. I think Cryptic just ran out of the ability to make game content, and that's why we can't have more than 1 fully playable race at launch. Hopefully after a couple of months, they'll be able to fill out the Klingons, then launch Romulans and the rest.
Could it be possible that what they are doing is a smart thing?
This is how I see things at present
Most developers work on a game for a very long time, getting in, or at least trying to get in all kinds of features, content etc for launch.. what if the game is a flop? Thats a big investment on a risk.
What I see Cryptic doing here is putting out a smaller game with basic features and content to create an income, to justify (hopefully) later adding the investment of more content and features.. if you think about it, its a smart business decision. Well, IMO anyway.
Could it be possible that what they are doing is a smart thing? This is how I see things at present Most developers work on a game for a very long time, getting in, or at least trying to get in all kinds of features, content etc for launch.. what if the game is a flop? Thats a big investment on a risk. What I see Cryptic doing here is putting out a smaller game with basic features and content to create an income, to justify (hopefully) later adding the investment of more content and features.. if you think about it, its a smart business decision. Well, IMO anyway.
What you get is a bunch of people quitting. I think they will turn a profit. Cheap to make, so if a bunch of people buy it, then they make money off the box sales. After that a lot of people are going to quit because it will be obviously cheap and Cryptic certainly isn't advertising it as cheap, but rather as a full experience. Also, if they did advertise it as such, they couldn't justify all the prices as they'd basically be saying "pay for beta!" Anyhow, like CO, expect a lot of people to quit in the first few months, and given how they are doing some of the beta testing, I'd expect that 45 day expansion to get delayed because they are busy putting out fires left and right.
"Two of the biggest complaints people had is that it launched without PvP and without crafting, yet when they added those two elements later on they saw only negligible subscription growth."
This statement is true, but also inaccurate. The issues was NOT that the game launched without either of those items. The lack of growth in their subscription base (and actually, they saw a reduction in subscriptions) was the extremely poor implementation of both game mechanics at the outset. Many of those changes also affected gameplay in CoH across the board.
Items such as travel power suppression, "enhancement diversification (ED)", reduction in the effective damage of classes whose primary ability was delivering damage, reduction in defense for classes whose primary abilities were defensive... all of those changes were made prior to and in preparation for the introduction of PvP.
The fact that they also basically introduced completely separate game mechanics for the way that powers and abilities would work in PvP vs. PvE was also an issue.
In effect, rather than adding PvP to the game, they created an entirely different game for PvP. For many, that was a huge disappointment. I know, because I was one of those who was anxiously anticipating PvP in CoH, but seriously disappointed by the implementation.
The crafting system somewhat follows along the same lines. Changes were made to the basic game mechanics that kept players from achieving the full potential of their character. The introduction of the crafting system gave back the ability for the player to almost approach their pre-ED power levels.
The problem with that is, what many subscribers enjoyed about CoH (besides simply being a hero) was the fact that you could jump in, do a couple missions, and that the enhancement system was uncomplicated. It allowed you to feel like you accomplished something every time you logged in.
The addition of the crafting system has made it so that the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" is very apparent. It is very clear that those who have crafted sets and full IO load-outs are more effective than their counterparts who are without.
So while the crafting system isn't broken per se, it is basically on the same level as raiding; repetitive missions and task force runs for rare drops, merits to buy recipes, etc. A lot of people simply do not like raiding, or crafting for that matter.
So in the end, both systems really just lacked from poor implementation.
Finally, CoH was and is a niche game. Not everyone is going to like it, regardless of what is added. The only advantage to having PvP and crafting at release would have been that the players would understand the systems from the outset, rather than having them foisted on them in a manner that went against everything CoH was when it released.
If they would have implemented the systems seamlessly into the existing game without changing a wide variety of existing game mechanics, or using existing mechanics that other MMOs have implemented in much the same way for years, they probably would have been more successful.
I just felt the need to say that; because I think that Jack Emmertt's statement about not having it at launch means you should basically not have it is seriously flawed.
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I am a big fan of Star Trek so I had high hopes for this game. But then I saw Cryptic was making it and I had to lower those expectations a lot.
Not being able to choose Kilingon, and relegating Klingons to "monster play," is a huge mistake. They can make whatever excuses they like, but it will hurt the game.
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Perhaps you missed the memo. Klingons are not "monster play" they are quite a bit more. Limited PvE at release, but with input from the players it can be changed. Mostly combat based with a bunch of PvP built in. (house v house, dueling, etc.) They are unlocked after you finish the tutorial. Full skill trees and ranks.
Perhaps you missed the memo. Klingons are not "monster play" they are quite a bit more. Limited PvE at release, but with input from the players it can be changed. Mostly combat based with a bunch of PvP built in. (house v house, dueling, etc.) They are unlocked after you finish the tutorial. Full skill trees and ranks.
That's still stupid and a huge fail. Why should you have no unlock them? Why are they more PvP based? That sounds to me ling Klingons will have a unfair advantage in PvP. That's lame as hell. Both sides should be as equally adept at PvE and PvP. Cryptic has so many bad ideas I swear. Oh well I can be certain SWTOR will crush this game.
I like what they're doing with Klingons. I also like the Federation tutorial idea. Why have two tutorials when the mechanics are the same? I also like the PvP focus at launch for Klingons, along with some PvE content. I'm also glad that there's an openness to add more PvE content, and or more PvP options. Very cool.
I really like their loot ideas. Loot for PvP is fantastic, especially when it doesn't cost the losing player. In CoH when I destroyed a villains heavy bot, I got some nice loot, at no cost to the villain. That was good stuff. I also like the usual loot for PvE questing.
What I really, really like is that there is no mention of RMT loot. It would be really nice to play a fun subscription only game once again. Those were my two best MMO experiences. Sadly both of those games underwent massive revamps after going live, and both added RMT. Both are also struggling population wise; one is on life-support. They were doing much better, both of them, before the revamps and RMT.
I'm also really impressed that Jack admitted the tunnel vision effect. Jack's a smart guy, and it's easy to think that your "right" is better than what players are actually asking for. It's still a mistake though, or a blind-spot. I'm glad he has been able to see this, and that he's made a decision to really put value on things that seem like priorities to the player-base. Way to go Jack!
Looking good so far. This is now my number one, "can't wait to try this out game." Number two at this point is TOR. I'm still waiting though to see if that has RMT. I especially hate that when items enhance gameplay somehow :P. There's just too much opportunity for that too become a manipulative money magnet. I just want to pay a reasonable fee for a nice entertainment service.
I cannot believe this game is going to be released in this condition.
Why is it legal to sell software that is incomplete or filled with known errors. Why is it legal to make claims and then not deliver on the claims. Why are you allowed to say one thing and deliver another. My bet is the box will make claims about content that is incomplete or not even there.
You sell this as a car it would be a lemon.
You sell it as software it is working as intended.
One of the biggest problems with the MMO world is the people who screwed up all the games in the past are now directors or managers at the companies making the current batch. How many games do you have to screw up before you can't get hired again?
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Project Management can be tough. Whatever timeline a company puts on production they should add a mandatory year and the budget should reflect that extra year inclusively.
You like Scotty says it will take 6 hours but I'll have it ready in 2 hrs. That "Miracle Worker" philosophy should be standard practice.
Saying that - I preordered today.
Had to, have every piece of watchable media at home already.
Project Management can be tough. Whatever timeline a company puts on production they should add a mandatory year and the budget should reflect that extra year inclusively. You like Scotty says it will take 6 hours but I'll have it ready in 2 hrs. That "Miracle Worker" philosophy should be standard practice. Exactly right. Saying that - I preordered today. Had to, have every piece of watchable media at home already.
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What irks me about all this is not that the klingons aren't getting full PVE but that when the word about this game broke, Cryptic made such a big deal about how the unusually short the development time for STO was not going to be a problem as were so pro at this gig.
So sick of all the hot air and spin that comes from these companies. You'd think people would have learned after that WAR guy made a public fool of himself.
Project Management can be tough. Whatever timeline a company puts on production they should add a mandatory year and the budget should reflect that extra year inclusively. You like Scotty says it will take 6 hours but I'll have it ready in 2 hrs. That "Miracle Worker" philosophy should be standard practice. Exactly right. Saying that - I preordered today. Had to, have every piece of watchable media at home already.
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
I agree 100%. I own all the shows as well but it's not because I'm a vacant moron who buys something because it has a star trek logo on it . Cryptic need to earn my money by doing something a little more compelling than buying some merchandising rights.
The issue is in the second quotation, "It’s just a simple matter of you have a certain amount of time ....." How many companies do we see that have undesirable time constraints put on game projects. Whoever is in change needs to be more flexible with the time line so we would see idea's come reality at release and not half attempts with an add on / update later on. You can do anything you want even with a Trek IP within reason, if time is the main thing against you - wise up and change it across the industry. Even admission is there. So why not take the right course of action to make the most popular adjustments for launch and delay a bit longer. It is often community feedback that has been saying the same thing for a while. A few month push back won't ruin a launch. Trek fans have been waiting long enough for something right and I was first looking for an ST mmo back in 1999 and all this time later the most ideal PVP situation is not realised for launch fruition. I can live with it, even the 10v10 limit, but I would like to see a focus here throughout the summer/autumn next year.
It's not a matter of a few months push back, I'm sure. It's a matter of a few years push back. Features take time and resources - especially core features that need to be integrated into the game from the ground up. Both from a design standpoint and a tech standpoint, but also things like GUI come heavily into play. They would need to be included in the initial design from day 1 to not feel the same sort of "tacked on" you would get if it happened post launch.
Now don't take me for an industry apologist. I'm not. But the core problem is the two necessary skill-sets for being a game director / executive producer of an MMO are the ability to manage and lead a 200+ person team and deal with a budget in the 10s of millions, know how to schedule and release a software product, AND the ability to keep an overview over every area of design, and be a competent designer in those areas at least from a high level. These are not skill-sets commonly found in general, much less in a single person.
Now lets introduce a dirty little fact of the software industry. The guys that get promoted to key positions within a company, generally do so out of their ability to "be friends with the right people," with their skills as a secondary consideration. It's the old-boy's network. And yes, it exists in games to.
See another dev who says they dont have time, they have to make tough choices, blah, blah, blah. Another one of those dev who think they know better than the players. STO will be a huge disapointment i already see it.
Meh, comparing the size of the Star Trek IP to the size of the Star Wars IP, I'd have to say they're at least equal, if not tipped on the ST side. So why can Bioware put out a (reputedly) monstrous game while Cryptic can only put out a moderate one? I'd have to say a major factor is the difference in the support each company is getting. Bioware has LucasArts all behind this game, while Cryptic is getting what? I've honestly heard nothing about the support from Paramount other than "they gave us a lot of stuff to look at and read". Another difference would be the capabilities of the two companies. Bioware has a ton of content creation, while Cryptic has their engine. Both are advantages, but the ability to create content is directly responsible for how "big "a game you have. I think Cryptic just ran out of the ability to make game content, and that's why we can't have more than 1 fully playable race at launch. Hopefully after a couple of months, they'll be able to fill out the Klingons, then launch Romulans and the rest.
You can't compare Lucas Arts direct care of thier IP to Paramount/CBS's slapping a label on a box. The franchises have both equal importance but both are handled very very differently. Lucas Film has created a subdevision to handle such properties, Lucas Arts. Paramount is still struggling with the concept that people are stil buying this "shlock in a box" when it comes to Star Trek. Its an old studio additude. Warner Brothers has woken to the idea that DC might be bankable after "Dark Knight" broke records sales. They have now created DC Entertainment to manage all the DC properties. Marvel Studios was created for the same thing. Paramount needs to re-organize Star Trek with the success of the new Star Trek movie and related products. Part of the problem is they just don't want some upstart producers thinking they are too vital to the system and keep them starved to work. But thats the Hollywood side of this.
One strong argument to any failings of STO is that it needs more time. I have to counter with Time=Money. Paramount and Atari are out of both and need this game out on time. For Paramount, they invested back with Perpetual and all Cryptic is doing is finishing the job for them. Should they invest more? Hell, yes but thier budgets are set for the next year. Moneys earned from the new film should be channled but those projections are probably already spent. Atari is in Legal trouble and has nothing to offer Cryptic that may be need in the battles to come. So this leaves Cryptic a little better off then CME is with Star Gate Worlds. MGM can't help CME anymore because of losses due to Ponsie Skeams and film flops. STO is just out of time and has to show now.
Project Management can be tough. Whatever timeline a company puts on production they should add a mandatory year and the budget should reflect that extra year inclusively. You like Scotty says it will take 6 hours but I'll have it ready in 2 hrs. That "Miracle Worker" philosophy should be standard practice. Exactly right. Saying that - I preordered today. Had to, have every piece of watchable media at home already.
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
I agree 100%. I own all the shows as well but it's not because I'm a vacant moron who buys something because it has a star trek logo on it . Cryptic need to earn my money by doing something a little more compelling than buying some merchandising rights.
So its wrong to buy this to see if we'll like it or not??? I didnt realize that our opinions dont matter.
Fact of the matter you arent going to truely know if you like a game or not unless you play it. Sure you can go by the doom and gloom that people who havent even played a second of the game have been posting since day one or you can trust your own instincts. I will get this game and try it out and if I dont like it then I wont play it. Just like I did with Age of Conan, Champions Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Wow...and just like I plan to do for The Old Republic, DC Universe and the Marvel Universe game.....
Originally posted by roach5000 So its wrong to buy this to see if we'll like it or not??? I didnt realize that our opinions dont matter.
It's not about your opinion, it's about your money. If you buy it, then Cryptic is rewarded for making this crap. Fact of the matter you arent going to truely know if you like a game or not unless you play it. Actually, I can know if I'm going to hate it. I do know. There's more than enough information out there now, to make that judgment.
Sure you can go by the doom and gloom that people who havent even played a second of the game have been posting since day one or you can trust your own instincts. I can make the judgment just from what Cryptic themselves have admitted about the game. I will get this game and try it out and if I dont like it then I wont play it. Just like I did with Age of Conan, Champions Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Wow...and just like I plan to do for The Old Republic, DC Universe and the Marvel Universe game.....
Whatever. I'm sure the sleazy devs who rush garbage onto the market appreciate you.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I cannot believe this game is going to be released in this condition. Why is it legal to sell software that is incomplete or filled with known errors. Why is it legal to make claims and then not deliver on the claims. Why are you allowed to say one thing and deliver another. My bet is the box will make claims about content that is incomplete or not even there. You sell this as a car it would be a lemon. You sell it as software it is working as intended. One of the biggest problems with the MMO world is the people who screwed up all the games in the past are now directors or managers at the companies making the current batch. How many games do you have to screw up before you can't get hired again?
I like your car comment. The Edsel was sent to dealers in a similar condition lol. It came with missing parts; they were sent along seperately 0_o.
Having said that, what I see Jack doing is the opposite of misleading people. Conan hyped features that weren't in the game at release. Vanguard hyped features that weren't in the game at release. StarWars Galaxies added jedi unlocks after release (according to one dev) despite people searching for ways to unlock them when the game went live. Emmert on the other hand seems to be telling us what this game's limitations will be when it launches.
While I'm not thrilled by the limitations (I'd like Klingons to be more complete as well), I do acknowledge and appreciate Jack's honesty. I don't really see a lot of spin here tbh.
So, okay, give me Klingons with a PvP focus and limited PvE; and then build from there. I think though that Klingon PvE content will have to be an early priority for updates to keep the faction viable. Then Jack's going to have to make sure this isn't rushed out in a crappy, boring, repetitive state. It'll probably be a challenge.
That's very sweet and unjudgemental of you. Now, please come back down to reality. The FACT is that mmos are judged and purchased based on preliminary feedback, marketing, and pr for the game. Right now, Cryptic has made a terrible pr move. Like it or not, people WILL react to it, whether they should or shouldn't. Instead of being annoyed at the players for rushing to conclusions (which you will NEVER be able to stop), you should be annoyed with Cryptic for making such a bad pr move. The bottom line fact of the matter is that NOTHING pisses off mmo players more than devs reneging on prior content promises. Cryptic has broken the golden rule that they should have learned a long time ago from the mistakes of their competitors. From my perspective, it's a bad business mistake that will cost them a lot.
Bad PR move? I have to disagree with you there. I don't see them reneging anything here. What I do see is a lot of people taking what was said and going off on a tangent based on wild assumptions rather than what's really there. I see people complaining that Klingons are not gonna have PvE and they'll be purely PvP; that's not what was said in the article. What was said was that they'll have more PvP and less PvE than the Federation; and that fits both the game and the mythos perfectly.
What I see missing in most of these posts is just plain common sense. Sure, be pissed off at what it could be lacking, but if you're gonna be closed-minded and foolish and refuse to play based on nothing more than an assumption without any facts or experience to back you, then this game is definitely not for you and I'm not sad to se you go.
My issue is people are reacting; they're not using their brains, they're just taking a line or two and running off into the wild blue yonder crying 'FOUL!'. Frankly, I expect better from a Star Trek fan-base, period.
You're suger coating it, they don't have time to finish content for the klingons so they are for the most part saying that kligons are monster play and for me thats a big no no. I just got out of cryptics champions and trust me when I say they are spread to thin on the dev teams. Nothing is getting fixed over there in champions. Its been months and there are the same broken moves in PVP the same problem with ALL nvidia drivers newer than one of the old builds(trust me I had to have special drivers just for champions that were VERY OLD), as well as a multitude of other problems(lack of content anyone?).
Cryptic might have burned me on champions but after seeing that and seeing the path that STO online is taking I am going to pass for now. This just shows me they still don't get it. Jack is hard headed and never wants to bend to what the CUSTOMER WANTS. Til he gets that through his thick skull I fear cryptic is doomed to make the same mistakes as to not hurt his, cough "vision".
Originally posted by roach5000 So its wrong to buy this to see if we'll like it or not??? I didnt realize that our opinions dont matter.
It's not about your opinion, it's about your money. If you buy it, then Cryptic is rewarded for making this crap. How do you know its crap???? You havent played it Fact of the matter you arent going to truely know if you like a game or not unless you play it. Actually, I can know if I'm going to hate it. I do know. There's more than enough information out there now, to make that judgment. Yet you were proclaiming doom on this game before the Klingon info came out. Seems to me that you had your heart set against hating this game.
Sure you can go by the doom and gloom that people who havent even played a second of the game have been posting since day one or you can trust your own instincts. I can make the judgment just from what Cryptic themselves have admitted about the game. I will get this game and try it out and if I dont like it then I wont play it. Just like I did with Age of Conan, Champions Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Wow...and just like I plan to do for The Old Republic, DC Universe and the Marvel Universe game.....
Whatever. I'm sure the sleazy devs who rush garbage onto the market appreciate you.
If its a crap game I wont be on it for long. However the advantage I will have is that I will dislike the game from having played it while you have allowed other people to influence your opinion.
How do you know its crap???? You havent played it Let's list a few points:
RPG with only one class.
Trek IP where you can't play anything but the captain.
Captains own every ship they have unlocked.
Cash shop+subscription fee
Very little 'death' penalty.
Two faction game with one faction having far less content.
That's enough for me. Yet you were proclaiming doom on this game before the Klingon info came out. Seems to me that you had your heart set against hating this game. I was proclaiming it crap. I don't know if it will be a commercial failure. It might well be popular with non-fans of Trek.
If its a crap game I wont be on it for long. However the advantage I will have is that I will dislike the game from having played it while you have allowed other people to influence your opinion.
Only the devs, as it is all their information. And I won't have paid Cryptic to produce crap and do injustice to a fine IP.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
You sunk my Klingon battlecruiser before the game even launched!! Poor Cryptic!
I am so good, I backstabbed your face!
I agree that Star Trek can't be done in a short amount of time, and would probably take a bit longer than another MMO. However, 2 years isn't enough for ANY good MMO, regardless of the IP. CO is much the same in terms of development and it is also racked with problems. In fact, there have been no games made in such a short amount of time that didn't bleed massive numbers of customers (assuming they had any significant number of people buy it). So, what I was trying to say is some time and money constraints just can't get the job done, no matter what. Cryptic seems to be operating under those and so the game they have made looks to be lacking lots of content and generally of somewhat shoddy construction.
If they had only promised what they could do, and didn't spin, spin, spin, then there'd be a lot less excitement about the game. They are handling the media aspect fairly well for whatever that is worth.
Anyhow, I don't disagree with what you said. I just wanted to emphasize the absurdly short time they've tried to make this game and how that wouldn't work for ANY MMO.
Until Cryptic makes Klingons a fully fleshed out (meaning History, Storyline, PvP AND PvE content) playable race I will not be playing.
Im fine with Klingons (and their faction) being created and directed as more PvP centric. In fact I WANT to kill Federation.
But not in this half-assed sideshow redheaded stepchild incarnation.
I want Klingons to be a true faction/race. To do any less is..well.. dishonorable.
They want to take a year to do that fine, but until then I wont even consider touching it.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Meh, comparing the size of the Star Trek IP to the size of the Star Wars IP, I'd have to say they're at least equal, if not tipped on the ST side. So why can Bioware put out a (reputedly) monstrous game while Cryptic can only put out a moderate one?
I'd have to say a major factor is the difference in the support each company is getting. Bioware has LucasArts all behind this game, while Cryptic is getting what? I've honestly heard nothing about the support from Paramount other than "they gave us a lot of stuff to look at and read".
Another difference would be the capabilities of the two companies. Bioware has a ton of content creation, while Cryptic has their engine. Both are advantages, but the ability to create content is directly responsible for how "big "a game you have. I think Cryptic just ran out of the ability to make game content, and that's why we can't have more than 1 fully playable race at launch. Hopefully after a couple of months, they'll be able to fill out the Klingons, then launch Romulans and the rest.
Could it be possible that what they are doing is a smart thing?
This is how I see things at present
Most developers work on a game for a very long time, getting in, or at least trying to get in all kinds of features, content etc for launch.. what if the game is a flop? Thats a big investment on a risk.
What I see Cryptic doing here is putting out a smaller game with basic features and content to create an income, to justify (hopefully) later adding the investment of more content and features.. if you think about it, its a smart business decision. Well, IMO anyway.
What you get is a bunch of people quitting. I think they will turn a profit. Cheap to make, so if a bunch of people buy it, then they make money off the box sales. After that a lot of people are going to quit because it will be obviously cheap and Cryptic certainly isn't advertising it as cheap, but rather as a full experience. Also, if they did advertise it as such, they couldn't justify all the prices as they'd basically be saying "pay for beta!" Anyhow, like CO, expect a lot of people to quit in the first few months, and given how they are doing some of the beta testing, I'd expect that 45 day expansion to get delayed because they are busy putting out fires left and right.
In reference to City of Heroes;
"Two of the biggest complaints people had is that it launched without PvP and without crafting, yet when they added those two elements later on they saw only negligible subscription growth."
This statement is true, but also inaccurate. The issues was NOT that the game launched without either of those items. The lack of growth in their subscription base (and actually, they saw a reduction in subscriptions) was the extremely poor implementation of both game mechanics at the outset. Many of those changes also affected gameplay in CoH across the board.
Items such as travel power suppression, "enhancement diversification (ED)", reduction in the effective damage of classes whose primary ability was delivering damage, reduction in defense for classes whose primary abilities were defensive... all of those changes were made prior to and in preparation for the introduction of PvP.
The fact that they also basically introduced completely separate game mechanics for the way that powers and abilities would work in PvP vs. PvE was also an issue.
In effect, rather than adding PvP to the game, they created an entirely different game for PvP. For many, that was a huge disappointment. I know, because I was one of those who was anxiously anticipating PvP in CoH, but seriously disappointed by the implementation.
The crafting system somewhat follows along the same lines. Changes were made to the basic game mechanics that kept players from achieving the full potential of their character. The introduction of the crafting system gave back the ability for the player to almost approach their pre-ED power levels.
The problem with that is, what many subscribers enjoyed about CoH (besides simply being a hero) was the fact that you could jump in, do a couple missions, and that the enhancement system was uncomplicated. It allowed you to feel like you accomplished something every time you logged in.
The addition of the crafting system has made it so that the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" is very apparent. It is very clear that those who have crafted sets and full IO load-outs are more effective than their counterparts who are without.
So while the crafting system isn't broken per se, it is basically on the same level as raiding; repetitive missions and task force runs for rare drops, merits to buy recipes, etc. A lot of people simply do not like raiding, or crafting for that matter.
So in the end, both systems really just lacked from poor implementation.
Finally, CoH was and is a niche game. Not everyone is going to like it, regardless of what is added. The only advantage to having PvP and crafting at release would have been that the players would understand the systems from the outset, rather than having them foisted on them in a manner that went against everything CoH was when it released.
If they would have implemented the systems seamlessly into the existing game without changing a wide variety of existing game mechanics, or using existing mechanics that other MMOs have implemented in much the same way for years, they probably would have been more successful.
I just felt the need to say that; because I think that Jack Emmertt's statement about not having it at launch means you should basically not have it is seriously flawed.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
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Dark Age of Camelot
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I am a big fan of Star Trek so I had high hopes for this game. But then I saw Cryptic was making it and I had to lower those expectations a lot.
Not being able to choose Kilingon, and relegating Klingons to "monster play," is a huge mistake. They can make whatever excuses they like, but it will hurt the game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Perhaps you missed the memo. Klingons are not "monster play" they are quite a bit more. Limited PvE at release, but with input from the players it can be changed. Mostly combat based with a bunch of PvP built in. (house v house, dueling, etc.) They are unlocked after you finish the tutorial. Full skill trees and ranks.
That's still stupid and a huge fail. Why should you have no unlock them? Why are they more PvP based? That sounds to me ling Klingons will have a unfair advantage in PvP. That's lame as hell. Both sides should be as equally adept at PvE and PvP. Cryptic has so many bad ideas I swear. Oh well I can be certain SWTOR will crush this game.
I like what they're doing with Klingons. I also like the Federation tutorial idea. Why have two tutorials when the mechanics are the same? I also like the PvP focus at launch for Klingons, along with some PvE content. I'm also glad that there's an openness to add more PvE content, and or more PvP options. Very cool.
I really like their loot ideas. Loot for PvP is fantastic, especially when it doesn't cost the losing player. In CoH when I destroyed a villains heavy bot, I got some nice loot, at no cost to the villain. That was good stuff. I also like the usual loot for PvE questing.
What I really, really like is that there is no mention of RMT loot. It would be really nice to play a fun subscription only game once again. Those were my two best MMO experiences. Sadly both of those games underwent massive revamps after going live, and both added RMT. Both are also struggling population wise; one is on life-support. They were doing much better, both of them, before the revamps and RMT.
I'm also really impressed that Jack admitted the tunnel vision effect. Jack's a smart guy, and it's easy to think that your "right" is better than what players are actually asking for. It's still a mistake though, or a blind-spot. I'm glad he has been able to see this, and that he's made a decision to really put value on things that seem like priorities to the player-base. Way to go Jack!
Looking good so far. This is now my number one, "can't wait to try this out game." Number two at this point is TOR. I'm still waiting though to see if that has RMT. I especially hate that when items enhance gameplay somehow :P. There's just too much opportunity for that too become a manipulative money magnet. I just want to pay a reasonable fee for a nice entertainment service.
I cannot believe this game is going to be released in this condition.
Why is it legal to sell software that is incomplete or filled with known errors. Why is it legal to make claims and then not deliver on the claims. Why are you allowed to say one thing and deliver another. My bet is the box will make claims about content that is incomplete or not even there.
You sell this as a car it would be a lemon.
You sell it as software it is working as intended.
One of the biggest problems with the MMO world is the people who screwed up all the games in the past are now directors or managers at the companies making the current batch. How many games do you have to screw up before you can't get hired again?
Project Management can be tough. Whatever timeline a company puts on production they should add a mandatory year and the budget should reflect that extra year inclusively.
You like Scotty says it will take 6 hours but I'll have it ready in 2 hrs. That "Miracle Worker" philosophy should be standard practice.
Saying that - I preordered today.
Had to, have every piece of watchable media at home already.
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What irks me about all this is not that the klingons aren't getting full PVE but that when the word about this game broke, Cryptic made such a big deal about how the unusually short the development time for STO was not going to be a problem as were so pro at this gig.
So sick of all the hot air and spin that comes from these companies. You'd think people would have learned after that WAR guy made a public fool of himself.
Currently Playing: The Game
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
I agree 100%. I own all the shows as well but it's not because I'm a vacant moron who buys something because it has a star trek logo on it . Cryptic need to earn my money by doing something a little more compelling than buying some merchandising rights.
Currently Playing: The Game
It's not a matter of a few months push back, I'm sure. It's a matter of a few years push back. Features take time and resources - especially core features that need to be integrated into the game from the ground up. Both from a design standpoint and a tech standpoint, but also things like GUI come heavily into play. They would need to be included in the initial design from day 1 to not feel the same sort of "tacked on" you would get if it happened post launch.
Now don't take me for an industry apologist. I'm not. But the core problem is the two necessary skill-sets for being a game director / executive producer of an MMO are the ability to manage and lead a 200+ person team and deal with a budget in the 10s of millions, know how to schedule and release a software product, AND the ability to keep an overview over every area of design, and be a competent designer in those areas at least from a high level. These are not skill-sets commonly found in general, much less in a single person.
Now lets introduce a dirty little fact of the software industry. The guys that get promoted to key positions within a company, generally do so out of their ability to "be friends with the right people," with their skills as a secondary consideration. It's the old-boy's network. And yes, it exists in games to.
See another dev who says they dont have time, they have to make tough choices, blah, blah, blah. Another one of those dev who think they know better than the players. STO will be a huge disapointment i already see it.
You can't compare Lucas Arts direct care of thier IP to Paramount/CBS's slapping a label on a box. The franchises have both equal importance but both are handled very very differently. Lucas Film has created a subdevision to handle such properties, Lucas Arts. Paramount is still struggling with the concept that people are stil buying this "shlock in a box" when it comes to Star Trek. Its an old studio additude. Warner Brothers has woken to the idea that DC might be bankable after "Dark Knight" broke records sales. They have now created DC Entertainment to manage all the DC properties. Marvel Studios was created for the same thing. Paramount needs to re-organize Star Trek with the success of the new Star Trek movie and related products. Part of the problem is they just don't want some upstart producers thinking they are too vital to the system and keep them starved to work. But thats the Hollywood side of this.
One strong argument to any failings of STO is that it needs more time. I have to counter with Time=Money. Paramount and Atari are out of both and need this game out on time. For Paramount, they invested back with Perpetual and all Cryptic is doing is finishing the job for them. Should they invest more? Hell, yes but thier budgets are set for the next year. Moneys earned from the new film should be channled but those projections are probably already spent. Atari is in Legal trouble and has nothing to offer Cryptic that may be need in the battles to come. So this leaves Cryptic a little better off then CME is with Star Gate Worlds. MGM can't help CME anymore because of losses due to Ponsie Skeams and film flops. STO is just out of time and has to show now.
You're part of the problem. It's people like you who are making such shoddy and incomplete MMO releases commercially viable.
I agree 100%. I own all the shows as well but it's not because I'm a vacant moron who buys something because it has a star trek logo on it . Cryptic need to earn my money by doing something a little more compelling than buying some merchandising rights.
So its wrong to buy this to see if we'll like it or not??? I didnt realize that our opinions dont matter.
Fact of the matter you arent going to truely know if you like a game or not unless you play it. Sure you can go by the doom and gloom that people who havent even played a second of the game have been posting since day one or you can trust your own instincts. I will get this game and try it out and if I dont like it then I wont play it. Just like I did with Age of Conan, Champions Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Wow...and just like I plan to do for The Old Republic, DC Universe and the Marvel Universe game.....
Whatever. I'm sure the sleazy devs who rush garbage onto the market appreciate you.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I like your car comment. The Edsel was sent to dealers in a similar condition lol. It came with missing parts; they were sent along seperately 0_o.
Having said that, what I see Jack doing is the opposite of misleading people. Conan hyped features that weren't in the game at release. Vanguard hyped features that weren't in the game at release. StarWars Galaxies added jedi unlocks after release (according to one dev) despite people searching for ways to unlock them when the game went live. Emmert on the other hand seems to be telling us what this game's limitations will be when it launches.
While I'm not thrilled by the limitations (I'd like Klingons to be more complete as well), I do acknowledge and appreciate Jack's honesty. I don't really see a lot of spin here tbh.
So, okay, give me Klingons with a PvP focus and limited PvE; and then build from there. I think though that Klingon PvE content will have to be an early priority for updates to keep the faction viable. Then Jack's going to have to make sure this isn't rushed out in a crappy, boring, repetitive state. It'll probably be a challenge.
Bad PR move? I have to disagree with you there. I don't see them reneging anything here. What I do see is a lot of people taking what was said and going off on a tangent based on wild assumptions rather than what's really there. I see people complaining that Klingons are not gonna have PvE and they'll be purely PvP; that's not what was said in the article. What was said was that they'll have more PvP and less PvE than the Federation; and that fits both the game and the mythos perfectly.
What I see missing in most of these posts is just plain common sense. Sure, be pissed off at what it could be lacking, but if you're gonna be closed-minded and foolish and refuse to play based on nothing more than an assumption without any facts or experience to back you, then this game is definitely not for you and I'm not sad to se you go.
My issue is people are reacting; they're not using their brains, they're just taking a line or two and running off into the wild blue yonder crying 'FOUL!'. Frankly, I expect better from a Star Trek fan-base, period.
You're suger coating it, they don't have time to finish content for the klingons so they are for the most part saying that kligons are monster play and for me thats a big no no. I just got out of cryptics champions and trust me when I say they are spread to thin on the dev teams. Nothing is getting fixed over there in champions. Its been months and there are the same broken moves in PVP the same problem with ALL nvidia drivers newer than one of the old builds(trust me I had to have special drivers just for champions that were VERY OLD), as well as a multitude of other problems(lack of content anyone?).
Cryptic might have burned me on champions but after seeing that and seeing the path that STO online is taking I am going to pass for now. This just shows me they still don't get it. Jack is hard headed and never wants to bend to what the CUSTOMER WANTS. Til he gets that through his thick skull I fear cryptic is doomed to make the same mistakes as to not hurt his, cough "vision".
Whatever. I'm sure the sleazy devs who rush garbage onto the market appreciate you.
If its a crap game I wont be on it for long. However the advantage I will have is that I will dislike the game from having played it while you have allowed other people to influence your opinion.
If its a crap game I wont be on it for long. However the advantage I will have is that I will dislike the game from having played it while you have allowed other people to influence your opinion.
Only the devs, as it is all their information. And I won't have paid Cryptic to produce crap and do injustice to a fine IP.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2