I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
I didn't read all 50+ pages but I don't recall anyone saying that...
Not in this thread per se, but in the MMO community in general. There's usually a vocal but apparently smaller (from this poll anyways)group of people who think PvP > all.
And to clarify: I have nothing against PvP. It's just that more often than not I just want to lose myself in some fantasy world. And not have to worry about the corpse-camping, tea-bagging idiots. Mind you, there are some days where I just want to BE that idiot and I'm glad there's plenty of games out there that let me do it
edit: also from my post count and join date, I'm a lurker. A very "unvocal" PvE lover
In my opinion, I think MMO would not be a success without a PvP in it. I admit, I'm not good in PvPs, in fact I don't like PvP but I think PvP is one major aspect in MMO.
PvP can be a bit of a buzz now and again, but I think I've reached that age where the question of whether I can mash buttons better than the next guy doesn't really give me any sense of achievement or anything (and if they can do it better than me then it doesn't bother me like it used to) which sort of takes the reward out of the whole PvP thing. Picked up BF2 Bad Company a few months ago... never been so bored in my entire life (and it's a decent enough game)... I think simple PvP might be something you just grow out of.
Currently almost all PvP comes down to numbers, or a really dumbed down team sport with a couple of tactics (mostly invoving some sort of planned localised zerg... bringing us back to numbers). Technology moves on though, and once we get games that can handle a more multi-faceted PvP on a much bigger scale (1,000s or 10,000s, and even, in a properly dynamic changing world) then that could get really interesting again, depends what they do with it.
Before it got wrecked by hackers, did enjoy Planetside, but that was mainly becuase your could meaningfully contribute to PvP without firing a shot (still miss that Lodestar!).
I do like PVP games, but what i dont like is PVE games where the PVP is poorly integrated into it... having said that, i really like the cooperative PVE too, and i have no problems playing games with no PVP whatsoever, i just think if your going to have PVP in a game, then its best to get it right, likewise with poorly done PVE in a PVP orientated game, i do think though, that if your going to have PVP in a game, then it needs to have a 'reason' or even better.. a multitude of them... what i dont enjoy or like is the single player PVP.. duelling is.. tbh.. booring and pointless, but i can say the same about single player PVE...
SWG had, and possibly still has, the best PvE game that has ever existed.
PvE=Economyy, SWG had the best Economy ever in terms of PvE. SWG did have PvP but it was seondary to PvE.
Pre-Cu had the best PvE/Economy any game has ever had.
Off topic but.... SWG has a good economy? There is no decay and no credit sink, with the most valuable items in general being taken from the trading card game as opposed to being looted or crafted. If you want to see what a true game economy is like try EVE, it's the only one of real note.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
Yeah and the results are skewed in favor of PvP.
I mean the casual majority doesn't even know that this site exists not to mention bothering with voting and posting in this thread.
I think that the real numbers would be more like 95% for PvE and 5% for PvP.
But as you said the PvPers are VERY vocal.
Judging from my join date + post count (12/03/05 and 501)
vs your join date + post count (1/31/10 and 510)
I would say you are WAY MORE "vocal" about things
Also from this other poll involving 44k+ votes I find your 5% estimate laughable.
20+% is significant from this poll I saw on the home page of this site.
Absolutely. In fact, I came here to post about Bright Shadow, which was PvE only, though it's true that a vocal minority wanted PvP (which would have been horrible, because the game wasn't designed for it at all, the classes were incredibly unbalanced).
The reason I started playing Bright Shadow in the first place was because it didn't have PvP, and now I'm really only interested in games without PvP or where it's at the very least not open PvP and not a big part of the game.
I would because communities have come to a point where pvp is a medium to bitch. It is more verbal encounters than anything else. Without pvp, these players would try pve, fail, bitch and leave.
Yes I don't pvp at all now days. The main reason why is all the stupid nerd rage you get. This player beets the other one and all you hear in chat is i got you bla bla bla. Then you have those who spawn camp, and gank.
Most of the pvp I have seen in games has not been well done.
Over 1000 votes and 80% would play an all PvE game.
I would not have guessed that when this poll went up. Glad to see it though.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
I dont know if it can be sucessful because it sounds like everybody always asking for PVP but I would play MMO without PVP. I think PVP makes people really obnoxious and they are always saying really stupid things or complaining if they lose. And every week they change the game because pvp people do not like the class or whatever.
I love PvP every game I played is pvp from DAOC to darkfall.
Except one... I played FFXI longer than any other MMO. I don't quite know why I could play that game but I did and it was an amazing work of an MMO. I don't play FF games, never played one besides FFXI and I probably never will, but man they did somthing right with FFXI There was a point I just got hooked, it actually took awhile I quit a few times before I really got into it but once I did I did everything, all of the old all of the new It was fun.
but, I needed blood
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
I am happy to see the people proven wrong who usually say something like: "The majority of the player base wants PvP and PvE only games can only fail." The results are about how I thought the ratio would be...
and this is a poll aimed at VERY rabid fans of the genre (visiting and subscribed to a fansite)
Yeah and the results are skewed in favor of PvP.
I mean the casual majority doesn't even know that this site exists not to mention bothering with voting and posting in this thread.
I think that the real numbers would be more like 95% for PvE and 5% for PvP.
But as you said the PvPers are VERY vocal.
Judging from my join date + post count (12/03/05 and 501)
vs your join date + post count (1/31/10 and 510)
I would say you are WAY MORE "vocal" about things
Also from this other poll involving 44k+ votes I find your 5% estimate laughable.
20+% is significant from this poll I saw on the home page of this site.
Carebears doesn't come to forums making posts about not getting enough PvE but you and your ilk do about PvP so the 20% is very skewed in favor of the brawlbears.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I would play one but, I think that people like your self are forgetting the fact that these companys want all the subs they can get that means they need to apeal to both crowds. Although it would be nice if there was more of a point to pvp.
SWG had the points deal where you could rank up and get some pretty cool stuff but, the stuff really had limited use and after like 3-4 months was pretty much useless in pvp and was only good for pve and the decay rate on rank was out of control and caused a lot of issues.
LOTRO has a pvp kinda thing but, as far as I can see it is pointless and way slanted towards the guy that has his main toon he spent a lot of time out fitting against the monstars which are just garbage.
STO has pvp that can be entertaining but, again you don't really need it, you can get the exact same gear in a pve setting.
WOW I think has the best pvp idea I have seen in that you can't talk to the enemy,although there are some people that are so into acting like retards they have figured out how to get a few of there ignorant messages across but, mostly there is no smack talking from the people your combating although there is plenty of bickering on the side your on but, the gear you get is actually useful in a pvp setting OR pve setting.
In a good mmo from what I have seen roughly half the people want to pvp and the other half want nothing to do with it but, people in both sides will tell you thing like "I dont know anyone that pvp's" or " I dont know anyone that cares about pve" well it is easy to get an opinion that no one likes pvp when you only talk to pver's and the same for pvpers, but for a game to be a sucess they really need to have both.
People have a tendancy to only look at things from there own point of view. Open up your mind and think about the other people out there and games can get better but, with people only useing limited info from one point to try to mold a game it is gonna be a rocky road.
SWG had, and possibly still has, the best PvE game that has ever existed.
PvE=Economyy, SWG had the best Economy ever in terms of PvE. SWG did have PvP but it was seondary to PvE.
Pre-Cu had the best PvE/Economy any game has ever had.
Off topic but.... SWG has a good economy? There is no decay and no credit sink, with the most valuable items in general being taken from the trading card game as opposed to being looted or crafted. If you want to see what a true game economy is like try EVE, it's the only one of real note.
Eve Online has nothing on Pre-CU SWG. SWG had the best economy.
Would I play an MMO with no PvP? Not a chance. I like to be competitive. Even though I no longer play sports it has always been a part of me - I love competition. The storyline and fantasy geek in me compels me to play rpg's. So, I like having both in a single game.
The class balance, implementation of pvp aspects and other things that come with it are annoying, yes. Devs often nerf PvE elements in dealing with PvP balance, as well. It sucks, but if the game's good enough people are always willing to deal with it.
Also, keep in mind - once you get to the point of an expansion (in most games) the experience is much the same. Sure, the content is in a different setting (slightly), but not a whole lot changes. At this point, a lot of people that shrugged off PvP before tend to start getting involved, because they still love the game...if not for PvE raid content. That's one great reason for PvP right there.
The OP might think only bragging rights come from it, which is okay. (and I do agree when it comes to the mass of teenage/college kids) However, most people want satisfaction from any game and, at a certain point, scripted encounters just don't cut it for a lot of people. Fighting against other players and having to predict, react differently, etc. is often much more rewarding. My $.02.
PvP does nothing but hamper MMOs with outlandish demands for balance classes. This limited the scope of PvE potential by allowing devs to skip out on making meaningful social content by catering to this game-killing feature. And that's what it is: A overblown, convoluted, mmo wreaking feature that has had it's time in the limelight and needs to step aside once more.
True PvP would mean that the game has to include single player advancement and no endgame. I'm all for a real PvE game with no rules. And that includes true PvP. Because in such a game the players ARE part of the environment because they would be a product of said environment.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
PvP does nothing but hamper MMOs with outlandish demands for balance classes. This limited the scope of PvE potential by allowing devs to skip out on making meaningful social content by catering to this game-killing feature. And that's what it is: A overblown, convoluted, mmo wreaking feature that has had it's time in the limelight and needs to step aside once more.
True PvP would mean that the game has to include single player advancement and no endgame. I'm all for a real PvE game with no rules. And that includes true PvP. Because in such a game the players ARE part of the environment because they would be a product of said environment.
Some people just want to be told what to do, much like soldier ants. These people often want things to be routine and predictable, as well. They often like this type of environment to go on for years and years, as well...throughout multiple expansions. I'd continue, but I think you see where this is going.
PvP does nothing but hamper MMOs with outlandish demands for balance classes. This limited the scope of PvE potential by allowing devs to skip out on making meaningful social content by catering to this game-killing feature. And that's what it is: A overblown, convoluted, mmo wreaking feature that has had it's time in the limelight and needs to step aside once more.
True PvP would mean that the game has to include single player advancement and no endgame. I'm all for a real PvE game with no rules. And that includes true PvP. Because in such a game the players ARE part of the environment because they would be a product of said environment.
Some people just want to be told what to do, much like soldier ants. These people often want things to be routine and predictable, as well. They often like this type of environment to go on for years and years, as well...throughout multiple expansions. I'd continue, but I think you see where this is going.
Yeah kinda sad really. Day in and day out I see mmo after mmo released that caters to these two things like there needs to be line drawn to where neither side can cross. I say damn the line and put something in place to give both playing styles a reason to erase that line. I always thought about a system where a pure crafter could advance without any sort of combat inclusion or a merchant who's killed and robbed by a player and had the option of either hiring bountyhunter(PKer) or a hiring a npc mercenary to track and kill the target for him. Then the merchant gets a report that "so-and-so" has been successfully assassinated.
Some players just want a feeling of justice being served, not a chance to revamp their whole playing style to "try" to whup someone's arse, you know?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
SWG had, and possibly still has, the best PvE game that has ever existed.
PvE=Economyy, SWG had the best Economy ever in terms of PvE. SWG did have PvP but it was seondary to PvE.
Pre-Cu had the best PvE/Economy any game has ever had.
Off topic but.... SWG has a good economy? There is no decay and no credit sink, with the most valuable items in general being taken from the trading card game as opposed to being looted or crafted. If you want to see what a true game economy is like try EVE, it's the only one of real note.
Eve Online has nothing on Pre-CU SWG. SWG had the best economy.
Take off the rose tinted glasses, no it didn't. CCP actually employs an economist to oversee the games economy.
SWG had an excellent crafting system and with decay a better economy then the game post NGE, but it has never been a patch on EVE in terms of economy, no mmo has.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The thing about PvP is you pretty much have to min-max and i can't get into that long-term. If i get it into my head i want to be a wood elf tank or a troll florist then that's what i want even if it's not the best build.
I like playing on the PvP servers of PvE games for the extra risk but i generally just play the PvE game unless someone *really* annoys me and then i go research how to stomp their class, collect some neccessary gear, then stomp them. But afterwards i go back to PvE again.
My ideal game would have to have PvP in it for "world" reasons as i'd want multiple races/factions and some of them would be at war - it would make no sense if a Paladin and Shadowknight bumped into each other in a dungeon and didn't fight - but in the games i've tried i haven't come across a PvPvE system that i particularly liked.
I'd be ultra strict about the rules though. Like you could kill players on your own side through voluntary duelling *or* you could switch on an outlaw flag which allowed you to attack someone involuntarily but if you killed them and there were witnesses (NPC or player) then you'd be marked an outlaw permanently and be KOS to the guards from then on (with perma-death) if they got you. Also the game would put a bounty on your head - both cash and faction etc. So you could do all the things that were realistically possible but the consequences of breaking your facton's laws would be realistically extreme as well.
Comments
Not in this thread per se, but in the MMO community in general. There's usually a vocal but apparently smaller (from this poll anyways)group of people who think PvP > all.
And to clarify: I have nothing against PvP. It's just that more often than not I just want to lose myself in some fantasy world. And not have to worry about the corpse-camping, tea-bagging idiots. Mind you, there are some days where I just want to BE that idiot and I'm glad there's plenty of games out there that let me do it
edit: also from my post count and join date, I'm a lurker. A very "unvocal" PvE lover
In my opinion, I think MMO would not be a success without a PvP in it. I admit, I'm not good in PvPs, in fact I don't like PvP but I think PvP is one major aspect in MMO.
PvP can be a bit of a buzz now and again, but I think I've reached that age where the question of whether I can mash buttons better than the next guy doesn't really give me any sense of achievement or anything (and if they can do it better than me then it doesn't bother me like it used to) which sort of takes the reward out of the whole PvP thing. Picked up BF2 Bad Company a few months ago... never been so bored in my entire life (and it's a decent enough game)... I think simple PvP might be something you just grow out of.
Currently almost all PvP comes down to numbers, or a really dumbed down team sport with a couple of tactics (mostly invoving some sort of planned localised zerg... bringing us back to numbers). Technology moves on though, and once we get games that can handle a more multi-faceted PvP on a much bigger scale (1,000s or 10,000s, and even, in a properly dynamic changing world) then that could get really interesting again, depends what they do with it.
Before it got wrecked by hackers, did enjoy Planetside, but that was mainly becuase your could meaningfully contribute to PvP without firing a shot (still miss that Lodestar!).
Ascension - EU Mature, Friendly, Laid Back SW:TOR Guild now recruiting.
I do like PVP games, but what i dont like is PVE games where the PVP is poorly integrated into it... having said that, i really like the cooperative PVE too, and i have no problems playing games with no PVP whatsoever, i just think if your going to have PVP in a game, then its best to get it right, likewise with poorly done PVE in a PVP orientated game, i do think though, that if your going to have PVP in a game, then it needs to have a 'reason' or even better.. a multitude of them... what i dont enjoy or like is the single player PVP.. duelling is.. tbh.. booring and pointless, but i can say the same about single player PVE...
Off topic but.... SWG has a good economy? There is no decay and no credit sink, with the most valuable items in general being taken from the trading card game as opposed to being looted or crafted. If you want to see what a true game economy is like try EVE, it's the only one of real note.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Judging from my join date + post count (12/03/05 and 501)
vs your join date + post count (1/31/10 and 510)
I would say you are WAY MORE "vocal" about things
Also from this other poll involving 44k+ votes I find your 5% estimate laughable.
20+% is significant from this poll I saw on the home page of this site.
PIRATE LORDS
sure i played FFXI soon ill play FFXIV
Absolutely. In fact, I came here to post about Bright Shadow, which was PvE only, though it's true that a vocal minority wanted PvP (which would have been horrible, because the game wasn't designed for it at all, the classes were incredibly unbalanced).
The reason I started playing Bright Shadow in the first place was because it didn't have PvP, and now I'm really only interested in games without PvP or where it's at the very least not open PvP and not a big part of the game.
Co-Op > Head-to-Head
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www.spankybus.com
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I would because communities have come to a point where pvp is a medium to bitch. It is more verbal encounters than anything else. Without pvp, these players would try pve, fail, bitch and leave.
Yes I don't pvp at all now days. The main reason why is all the stupid nerd rage you get. This player beets the other one and all you hear in chat is i got you bla bla bla. Then you have those who spawn camp, and gank.
Most of the pvp I have seen in games has not been well done.
Over 1000 votes and 80% would play an all PvE game.
I would not have guessed that when this poll went up. Glad to see it though.
--John Ruskin
I would play as long as i could pull spawn and go invis to kill people and loot them.
PVP is the first and last concern for me in a mmo.....
First...how much grief pvp is allowed.(eg can random smacktard a run by and leave me dead in his wake)
Last because I have zero intrest in pvp.
Lately I play through the story line in most mmo's then roll on.
I dont know if it can be sucessful because it sounds like everybody always asking for PVP but I would play MMO without PVP. I think PVP makes people really obnoxious and they are always saying really stupid things or complaining if they lose. And every week they change the game because pvp people do not like the class or whatever.
I love PvP every game I played is pvp from DAOC to darkfall.
Except one... I played FFXI longer than any other MMO. I don't quite know why I could play that game but I did and it was an amazing work of an MMO. I don't play FF games, never played one besides FFXI and I probably never will, but man they did somthing right with FFXI There was a point I just got hooked, it actually took awhile I quit a few times before I really got into it but once I did I did everything, all of the old all of the new It was fun.
but, I needed blood
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
-------------------------------------------------
Carebears doesn't come to forums making posts about not getting enough PvE but you and your ilk do about PvP so the 20% is very skewed in favor of the brawlbears.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I would play one but, I think that people like your self are forgetting the fact that these companys want all the subs they can get that means they need to apeal to both crowds. Although it would be nice if there was more of a point to pvp.
SWG had the points deal where you could rank up and get some pretty cool stuff but, the stuff really had limited use and after like 3-4 months was pretty much useless in pvp and was only good for pve and the decay rate on rank was out of control and caused a lot of issues.
LOTRO has a pvp kinda thing but, as far as I can see it is pointless and way slanted towards the guy that has his main toon he spent a lot of time out fitting against the monstars which are just garbage.
STO has pvp that can be entertaining but, again you don't really need it, you can get the exact same gear in a pve setting.
WOW I think has the best pvp idea I have seen in that you can't talk to the enemy,although there are some people that are so into acting like retards they have figured out how to get a few of there ignorant messages across but, mostly there is no smack talking from the people your combating although there is plenty of bickering on the side your on but, the gear you get is actually useful in a pvp setting OR pve setting.
In a good mmo from what I have seen roughly half the people want to pvp and the other half want nothing to do with it but, people in both sides will tell you thing like "I dont know anyone that pvp's" or " I dont know anyone that cares about pve" well it is easy to get an opinion that no one likes pvp when you only talk to pver's and the same for pvpers, but for a game to be a sucess they really need to have both.
People have a tendancy to only look at things from there own point of view. Open up your mind and think about the other people out there and games can get better but, with people only useing limited info from one point to try to mold a game it is gonna be a rocky road.
Eve Online has nothing on Pre-CU SWG. SWG had the best economy.
Would I play an MMO with no PvP? Not a chance. I like to be competitive. Even though I no longer play sports it has always been a part of me - I love competition. The storyline and fantasy geek in me compels me to play rpg's. So, I like having both in a single game.
The class balance, implementation of pvp aspects and other things that come with it are annoying, yes. Devs often nerf PvE elements in dealing with PvP balance, as well. It sucks, but if the game's good enough people are always willing to deal with it.
Also, keep in mind - once you get to the point of an expansion (in most games) the experience is much the same. Sure, the content is in a different setting (slightly), but not a whole lot changes. At this point, a lot of people that shrugged off PvP before tend to start getting involved, because they still love the game...if not for PvE raid content. That's one great reason for PvP right there.
The OP might think only bragging rights come from it, which is okay. (and I do agree when it comes to the mass of teenage/college kids) However, most people want satisfaction from any game and, at a certain point, scripted encounters just don't cut it for a lot of people. Fighting against other players and having to predict, react differently, etc. is often much more rewarding. My $.02.
PvP does nothing but hamper MMOs with outlandish demands for balance classes. This limited the scope of PvE potential by allowing devs to skip out on making meaningful social content by catering to this game-killing feature. And that's what it is: A overblown, convoluted, mmo wreaking feature that has had it's time in the limelight and needs to step aside once more.
True PvP would mean that the game has to include single player advancement and no endgame. I'm all for a real PvE game with no rules. And that includes true PvP. Because in such a game the players ARE part of the environment because they would be a product of said environment.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Some people just want to be told what to do, much like soldier ants. These people often want things to be routine and predictable, as well. They often like this type of environment to go on for years and years, as well...throughout multiple expansions. I'd continue, but I think you see where this is going.
Yeah kinda sad really. Day in and day out I see mmo after mmo released that caters to these two things like there needs to be line drawn to where neither side can cross. I say damn the line and put something in place to give both playing styles a reason to erase that line. I always thought about a system where a pure crafter could advance without any sort of combat inclusion or a merchant who's killed and robbed by a player and had the option of either hiring bountyhunter(PKer) or a hiring a npc mercenary to track and kill the target for him. Then the merchant gets a report that "so-and-so" has been successfully assassinated.
Some players just want a feeling of justice being served, not a chance to revamp their whole playing style to "try" to whup someone's arse, you know?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Take off the rose tinted glasses, no it didn't. CCP actually employs an economist to oversee the games economy.
Latests quarterly economic newsletter:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q2-2010.pdf
SWG had an excellent crafting system and with decay a better economy then the game post NGE, but it has never been a patch on EVE in terms of economy, no mmo has.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I voted "yes".
The thing about PvP is you pretty much have to min-max and i can't get into that long-term. If i get it into my head i want to be a wood elf tank or a troll florist then that's what i want even if it's not the best build.
I like playing on the PvP servers of PvE games for the extra risk but i generally just play the PvE game unless someone *really* annoys me and then i go research how to stomp their class, collect some neccessary gear, then stomp them. But afterwards i go back to PvE again.
My ideal game would have to have PvP in it for "world" reasons as i'd want multiple races/factions and some of them would be at war - it would make no sense if a Paladin and Shadowknight bumped into each other in a dungeon and didn't fight - but in the games i've tried i haven't come across a PvPvE system that i particularly liked.
I'd be ultra strict about the rules though. Like you could kill players on your own side through voluntary duelling *or* you could switch on an outlaw flag which allowed you to attack someone involuntarily but if you killed them and there were witnesses (NPC or player) then you'd be marked an outlaw permanently and be KOS to the guards from then on (with perma-death) if they got you. Also the game would put a bounty on your head - both cash and faction etc. So you could do all the things that were realistically possible but the consequences of breaking your facton's laws would be realistically extreme as well.