I don't mind RMT that benefits everyone such as in EVE. That's a symbiotic system that allows both the paying, and non paying, players to benefit in some way. I also don't mind RMT in F2P games since they're built to depend on that model and I won't go near them.
What I do have a problem with is companies introducing RMT post launch. This is effectively a scam that preys on the player's time investment into a game. SOE's games are a good example of this; playes have poured hours and hours of their time into their characters and then SOE throw in a cash shop. Those players want to quit, but are reluctant to abandon the character they've created, as a result they feel forced to spend money in the cash shop and support the cash shop model even if they don't actually want to.
There's also a very very thin line labelled 'Greed' when a company introduces a cash shop on top of a subscription model. It's far far far too easy for the developers to throttle the content they offer for free in order to force players to use the shop to actually get a full play experience. They effectively start cutting things that would normally be offered for free and attempt to charge for them.
It should also be noted that a similar problem is arising in single player games recently in the form of launch day DLC. If the content was made during the game's initial development cycle then it should be in the original game. They deliberately cut content just to sell it to make more money on launch day. I don't see how that can be anything other than greed and having a cash shop on top of a subscription model is exactly the same concept.
I am willing to pay more monthly fees to get an all inclusive game, but then I don't want to pay a dime for anything besides the monthly fees and that includes expansions.
30 bucks a month? No problem but then I just want to download the game and pay my monthly fee and if I see a fee for anything Ill quit.
To open up a RMT shop instead of raising the monthly fees is not a good idea. If it is in from start, then fine. I know what I am getting myself into and can choose if I want that. And for F2P games it is fine too. But adding it into the game I already play sucks, just raise the fee to what you need instead thanks.
I don't believe micro transactions should be allowed in a game that your paying for by subscription. Period. The reason is simply that they will develop content solely for micro-transactions. City of Heroes has put out numerous FREE expansions as have other games which is how it should be if your paying for it. I can rationalize paying for a very large expansion such as those put out for WoW by Blizzard. But.... Paying for every little update and tiny content add is not right if your paying by subscription. Paying money to unlock a major race or faction in a MMO is even worse. MMOs aren't just double dipping. They are tripple dipping if you count sub fee, micro transaction for items, and then paying for added content. Will we pay? If the game is good enough then likely we will keep feeding the parasite corp but these games tend to get dropped in a heartbeat when a better game comes along that doesn't double dip.
Great article. We do have a say in this type of stuff. People talk with their money and as long as there is an decent market out there and people keep paying they will keep coming. As long as people keep paying they won't be going anywhere.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Could not agree more, they should do micro or monthly but not both. I do not mind micro as it keeps out the gold buying low life. I also do not mind monthly as this way at least usually the good gear is only gotten by earning it even if you have a few gold buying low life's around. I do however feel a pain in my backside when they try to do both, because what happens is you just get the worst of both and the best of nothing. This is just my opinion I could be wrong.
I don't believe micro transactions should be allowed in a game that your paying for by subscription. Period. The reason is simply that they will develop content solely for micro-transactions. City of Heroes has put out numerous FREE expansions as have other games which is how it should be if your paying for it. I can rationalize paying for a very large expansion such as those put out for WoW by Blizzard. But.... Paying for every little update and tiny content add is not right if your paying by subscription. Paying money to unlock a major race or faction in a MMO is even worse. MMOs aren't just double dipping. They are tripple dipping if you count sub fee, micro transaction for items, and then paying for added content. Will we pay? If the game is good enough then likely we will keep feeding the parasite corp but these games tend to get dropped in a heartbeat when a better game comes along that doesn't double dip.
Couldnt agree more. To me when companies do this it just turns me away from their game. If i am already paying a sub, then that should be getting the player base new stuff. We shouldnt then have to pay for it to be unlocked, such as races etc. Major expansions sure. Everything else NO!! thats what my sub is paying for.
I hear some friends near to me complain about MT but they keep playing game and even buy some evenetually they prolly try buy to be show off or get that advantage if some items give them that.
I have my principles i refuse and i wont play p2p mmo's that offers MT but some of my gaming friends say they dont like it but keep playing and eventually buying.
And there is your problem majority just dont have backbone they complain but eventuall give up.
And for record only small portion of gaming community comes to forums and discus this MT subject so MASS just see something else introduced in game and just accept it.
And thats what developers are hoping MASS without any objection accept MT in there game.
It will even get worse then this soon they offer items gold that give clear advatange if your willing to pay.
But future will tell if people willing to pay 50 bucks for game 15 bucks monthly and buy there way to top money has to come from somewhere so many need to cut budget somewhere else to pay alot more for there mmo, are people willing to do that?....,i think not.
But will see they dont get my money hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
A very very sad state of affairs .... F2P games currently with RMT are an immediate turn off for me I am happy to pay a subscription but anything more is just unrealistic.
I am someone who can easily afford RMT item shops , but in my opinion I want to be on a level playing field cost wise. Time is another matter I am happy that people with no lives can invest more time and develop their ingame credentials more but the buying your way to the top to me renders most of these games redundant and no longer games.
I currently am having more fun playing well developed MUDs with small online communities than the current batch of MMOs as they don'y hack it anymore ever since AC1/EQ2 not one has been developed with any depth and are mainlky just whack a mole.
The Genre is dying and becoming just an online chat room but no longer great games. The only exceptions at the moment would be EvE , DFO where longevity and developing a charachter count and it isn't just about endgame in 10 minutes.
Thats not what an MMO is about , simple Arena games meet that requirement.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I agree that EVE is an excellent model. Admittedly you can buy Plex but its the time you spend with the game that counts. EVE is also a game that you can casually play and still succeed since you can train when your away from your computer. I think the space combat is a little Meh and might not appeal to some since its more strategy than shoot em out dogfight. However, EVE has one of the strongest player communities out there and has a good balance of PVE and PVP although the PVP has a rather steep learning if not painful curve to follow. EVE has also given numerous FREE expansions. I think EVE's success is primarily due to the developing community having strong interest in the game and the player community rather than simply making a buck. I think they realize that by having a good game and support that people are going to want to stay and thus EVE is successful and makes money to keep going. Now.... If only we can get some more fantasy games that could do the same.
+experience items highlight the folly of playing their game, don't they?
They point out that their game is grindy and that their content is something you want to get through as quickly as possible. Why then play it at all unless there is some sort of light at the end of the tunnel?
I think this is such a huge issue in MMO games, and I'm glad to see an article specifically about this topic here.
It's obvious from the responses in this thread that there are people who are completely comfortable with RMT in subscription games. I don't understand those people. How can anyone be on the side of an argument where the only affect it has on them is that they have to pay more money? You might as well just donate a portion of your salary every month to your favorite game company, because supporting RMT in subscription games is the same thing - you're simply supporting giving them more money for nothing. To put it another way, adding a RMT mall onto a subscription game is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as increasing the subscription fee by a certain amount, so saying you support RMT in subscription games is saying you support higher subscription fees.
The only argument I've heard for RMT is that it enables the developer to create more content for the game. This is a load of bunk. That's not how a business works. They aren't going to divide out their income and say "we earned X from our Item Mall, so we'll turn that around and develop X worth of new content for the game." That's not the real world. That's now how a company works. The way the real world works is, the company looks at how much TOTAL income they're receiving from the game and from that they determine how much each department's budget will be. Which MIGHT mean that their content departments (art, sound, writers, designers, etc) get more money, but it also means more money is available for every other department like accounting, marketing, legal, HR, IT, corporate, and/or whoever else they decide to give a bigger budget to. In the end, the probable outcome is that MAYBE they pay the employees in their creative departments a little bit more and they continue to produce the exact same amount of content they would have if it was a regular subscription game.
Have lots to reply to, so I apologize if this comes off fragmented a bit. Also, I had no idea that today would make this discussion more interesting due to two things: Allods Online's cash shop opening, and the "Cha-Ching" workshop being announced. I know that many of you are arguing that we are not confused about how we feel about MTs in sub games - but we are sending a mixed message. Forums may be full of "this is crap" posts, and yet the items sell (and sell and sell). One voice in the community will say "We do not want MTs," but the company will ask "Would you pay for a cute rare mount?" and customers will turn around and say "Yes!" It's not a matter of individual confusion; it's a matter of community confusion and whose concerns are reaching the ears of the companies. There will always be people in the community who will buy the stuff offered - and always people who refuse. We can't pretend otherwise. However, if a game's community (as a whole) says one thing about microtransactions, and does another, what is the game company supposed to take as a direction? ... Khalathwyr: Yeah, I don't spend a lot of time chatting "down in the trenches." I also know that the MMORPG.com trenches aren't a full and proper representation of the MMO community. I like you guys, but my sample size goes beyond these forums. As for rubbing elbows, well, I talk to these people less than once a week on average; the rest is spent with the community. There's a fine art of playing reporter and gamer at once - message me about it sometime, I'd be happy to go into detail. You are right. The players have spoken in the forums about how they feel about microtransactions. They have also spoken about how they can't wait to buy the next little My LIttle Pony. And they speak, more loudly, with the amount of money they give a company when microtransactions are rolled out. And money speaks louder than words. The reason players aren't being listened to - besides those who are trenched into corporate greed - is that players (again, we're talking as a whole, not individuals) are saying they're against the idea, while handing over the cash. Does it surprise you that an upcoming workshop about virtual monetization is being called "Cha-Ching"? Of course not. It shouldn't surprise anyone. We know - I acknowledged- there are people in these companies who are rollin' up the dollar bills and smokin'. And by our actions, not our words, we tell them that this is OK. Companies are doing research, and (poor or not), their research is finding that players will pay real money for items even after a subscription fee. They don't even have to ask, really: all they have to do is look at their sales. Also, Khalathwyr, props on the idea of forming some sort of organization or conference to make our anti-RMT mission clear. It's a pity that the media companies are going to stay neutral in the matter (tip: I don't work for a media company, I'm an independent writer who makes money off the work I submit and nothing more) and players will doubtfully rally behind a manifesto even if we tried.
Just an additional thought: a developer once told me that out of a $15 subscription fee, only a third of that goes toward all the actual costs of playing the game, from development, server maintenance, and staffing. The rest, he said, is profit. Think of where that puts RMTs on the list.
First, thanks for replying. Second, I feel the need to state that I'm by no means trying to tar and feather you so if it may look like my writing is doing such I'm not. Eight years as a soldier and I still do the majority of things aggressively but certainly without any genuine malice. That said...
I don't think there is a mixed message being sent by western gamers. Irrespective of what the sales numbers say (even you admitted western numbers were foggy in this thread) I fell comfortable right at this moment making the uneducated (key word there) statement that the number of western gamers who don't use the Items shops is far, far, far greater that the numbers that do. Adding to that let's delve into the actual buyers of those items and I'd have to wonder how many of those transactions were by gold sellers.
As for playing gamer and reporter at once I may be able to sympathize with your inference as I've done the soldier and "diplomat" at once. Smile and grin but keep your thumb on the selector switch and be ready to shoot. I won't ask you to reveal your other "handles" on this or other sites for the obvious reason (and no, I'm not trying to stalk you, heheh).
I have to disagree a little on your take on why players aren't getting listened to. I think it's simply because it's the easiest route to go. Only one time really in the history of MMO gaming have players concerns been listen to with the route you propose and that other media and company officials have said which is to speak with their wallet: SWG. Even with that the company still didn't "listen" to it's player base and open up a classic server or two to give their previously paying customers what they wanted.
As for the summit or conference idea I think it'd give some formal representation for players. It may not make significant impact immediately yet once it had a few years to grow and establish some clout with the media and then gaming companies I think it may be able to effect some positive changes. I agree that having players follow any immediate manifesto because there isn't a clear, central avenue to communicate on such a large scale to MMO gamers. Sites like these are all we have. Efforts such as those that I mentioned would be to bring together various sites like these to get a more far reaching messaging and closer to full and proper representation. Not just for the RMT issue but for various other issues.
Trouble is a grassroots effort just won't work without some support from the gaming media and media sites (which at current will only remain neutral as you state) or by some well established company taking up the torch to get these recurring meeting in place. As I've said above, the companies aren't going to just listen to us at current (gamers want to play games and if this is all they're offering we have not much of another choice other than to not use the item malls or stop gaming). Such an effort needs a well known General to muster all the proper resources.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
No Micro Transactions In Sub based Games. Don't Hit my wallet for more than you already do. If you let me play for free maybe I can buy stuff from your store.
So far all good games was subscription based. (with exception of Guild Wars). So I don't care about free to play games. If they make them the way, that one can not play without paying, then they die faster... Else it might take a bit longer.
Lets get to subscription based games.
As a lot people mentioned additional fee for race/class/name change or server transfer - we get used to be charged for that. Sometime is expensive, but still helps, since saves a lot of time, witch I will have to invest to create a new char and level up.
Anything extra - I'd say NO! Even if it's pure cosmetic, it still make me feel unfair.
It's obvious from the responses in this thread that there are people who are completely comfortable with RMT in subscription games. I don't understand those people. How can anyone be on the side of an argument where the only affect it has on them is that they have to pay more money?
Yet you gotta admit, there has been a large playerbase that felt that way, for a long time. More than a decade ago people were buying MMOs at regular box prices, and paying a monthly subscription, and spending a bunch more money buying from their friendly local goldfarmer.
Sure, plenty of people didn't. But you can't deny that enough did to sustain a booming goldfarming industry.
The MMO developers have tried to combat unauthorized RMT, they've seen how incredibly difficult it is when there is a massive demand for it from their playerbase, it's hardly surprising that they would eventually think to try to tap in on that demand themselves.
I also think RMT's have no damn place in P2P games! greedy bastard companies! take my monthly sub and enjoy that money. dont try to leech extra cash out of me with stupid item shops, xp pots, silly hats, little cute pets. WTF! GTFO!
Funcom you better not add a damn item shop or ill kill you!
-------------------------------------- Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The force shall free me. -the Sith code
Well I must admit I have tried a mirad of game types, hate F2P with a passion, and shall continue to play on monthly subs only!
If someone turns up on my door and mentions, "IT'S FREE", I promptly SLAM the door and hope that they hear me telling them what I think.
I am NOT playing any MMO atm because either the promises made by the Devs never came to see the light of day, or that they kept changing their minds on what model to follow, what to sell at what price, and the list goes on.
WELL I'M SICK OF THE BS. But I doubt these MMO Devs are taking much notice, just as with Ubisoft's new OnlineOnly policy. So I say good bye and await something that not only states all the rules, states clearly their plan and system, and what I get for what price.
Until then, I shall sit back and read all the whining, and hope that before I die I get to have some fun....
The justification of "Account Services" as RMT is just plain hogwash. Transfering a character's data from one server to the next is move involved (whether from a manual standpoint or to build out the technology to do so) and therefore is a reasonable "premium" service that has absolutely NO impact or relationship to the content of game experience.
Anything related to items - aesthetic, functional, or otherwise, should be relative to the commercial model of the game. If the game is P2P, everything should be included in the base subscription or offered as part of a retail expansion. As an expansion, if players do not feel they will get their money's worth of content - they just won't buy it. If the game is F2P, the expectation is that since you are paying for free, the game company needs an avenue to make revenue (to pay for staff, servers, etc) and their will be a cash shop of some sort.
There is NO PLACE for models that cross these thresholds. The ambiguity regarding what a subscription entitles the end-user - us - to becomes blurred and, even worse, subject to change over time. Yes, I believe if I am paying for a service that I am entitled to what the game offers in a complete package. People seem to forget that a game like Diablo 2 or Guild Wars (I won't argue that they are not completely MMOs in the purest sense) provide a semi-massively multiplayer gaming experience with a single retail purchase - no subscription or cash shop required.
MMOs are becoming overly greedy and looking for ways to line their pockets instead of looking for new ways of bringing players in and offering a unique and viable gaming experience.
In regards to the RMT, I would personally only worry if I'm paying a subscription and they are making me pay for new content on a regular basis to be able to further enjoy the game. That's where I believe my subscription costs go is into the actual game and my gameplay experiences.
The fluff that takes up most of the stores (even added bonuses) I find not even worth arguing for. It's unnecessary to most players' game experiences and hell, even added bonuses (usually in the form of exp potions) are a waste of money especially since in the current state of MMO's, leveling has become much easier compared to how it used to be. At least MMO's don't implement experience penalties upon death and leveling has become more and more of a chore rather than an experience these days. The real part of the MMO seems to be at the maximum level in theme-park designed games.
On a final note, with subscription costs and not having to pay for new content, I wonder why we as players put up with having to pay for expansions? EVE Online provides enough content in their "expansions" that you could of charged people for normally, but they choose to make theirs free. Why do we allow games like WoW to charge us almost the same amount($40 US) as a regular PC game just for additional content? Can't you argue that we ARE paying for added material? Just because it comes in a box, does it justify that we pay for this additional content while we pay for a subscription cost? Why aren't we all crying about this as well, I figure this should be a much bigger deal.
Despite complaints about Stores and the whole 'buying extra's" evidence shows that when such shops open they are hugly successfull !
I remember the first time guildwars put a shop up for extra slots, everyone went mad! Even I bought a slot.. though I dont think to this day I ever used it! lol
I think it boils down to transparency and blurry conventions. When you visit a zoo, you pay an entrace fee to see animals. They won't charge you extra to see the tigers. And they won't claim that the fee paid at the entrance just covers creatures starting with a vowel, while the others require extra money, since the costs aren't covered with the entrance fee. In essence, there is a straightforward idea for what you are paying for, even though it's still vague in the details (because a zoo is large and there are many factors involved). You don't know exactly what animals they have or if the really interesting ones are currently hidden in a corner to sleep. MMORPGs in comparison have a lot of leeway, they are more like Lucky Bags and the conventions are blurry, what you actually pay for.
Functionality: You don't know exactly what functionality is working and to which degree. Do you pay "rent" for features that don't work?
Service: There is only a vague idea about the service provided. Do you pay for the server downtimes also? How about customer service in your language? How about GM services?
Enhancements: Are you paying access to an AS-IS service? Or do you pay a development team to provide new stuff as well? Or is it part-this-part-that? If so, how can you know what is covered by your payments already?
Shop: does the item shop provide "RMT-like" services (that you pay real-money for items that can be achieved in the game by playing)? Are the shop items not really related to other items in the game? What is the relationship between shop items and other items? What is the purpose of the shop (providing cosmetical items, skip downtime for money etc.)? Can you (realistically) reach end game without shop items?
It seems to be a good idea to carve out conventions (original subscription-model did work), and infusing some transparency.
Comments
I don't mind RMT that benefits everyone such as in EVE. That's a symbiotic system that allows both the paying, and non paying, players to benefit in some way. I also don't mind RMT in F2P games since they're built to depend on that model and I won't go near them.
What I do have a problem with is companies introducing RMT post launch. This is effectively a scam that preys on the player's time investment into a game. SOE's games are a good example of this; playes have poured hours and hours of their time into their characters and then SOE throw in a cash shop. Those players want to quit, but are reluctant to abandon the character they've created, as a result they feel forced to spend money in the cash shop and support the cash shop model even if they don't actually want to.
There's also a very very thin line labelled 'Greed' when a company introduces a cash shop on top of a subscription model. It's far far far too easy for the developers to throttle the content they offer for free in order to force players to use the shop to actually get a full play experience. They effectively start cutting things that would normally be offered for free and attempt to charge for them.
It should also be noted that a similar problem is arising in single player games recently in the form of launch day DLC. If the content was made during the game's initial development cycle then it should be in the original game. They deliberately cut content just to sell it to make more money on launch day. I don't see how that can be anything other than greed and having a cash shop on top of a subscription model is exactly the same concept.
I am willing to pay more monthly fees to get an all inclusive game, but then I don't want to pay a dime for anything besides the monthly fees and that includes expansions.
30 bucks a month? No problem but then I just want to download the game and pay my monthly fee and if I see a fee for anything Ill quit.
To open up a RMT shop instead of raising the monthly fees is not a good idea. If it is in from start, then fine. I know what I am getting myself into and can choose if I want that. And for F2P games it is fine too. But adding it into the game I already play sucks, just raise the fee to what you need instead thanks.
I don't believe micro transactions should be allowed in a game that your paying for by subscription. Period. The reason is simply that they will develop content solely for micro-transactions. City of Heroes has put out numerous FREE expansions as have other games which is how it should be if your paying for it. I can rationalize paying for a very large expansion such as those put out for WoW by Blizzard. But.... Paying for every little update and tiny content add is not right if your paying by subscription. Paying money to unlock a major race or faction in a MMO is even worse. MMOs aren't just double dipping. They are tripple dipping if you count sub fee, micro transaction for items, and then paying for added content. Will we pay? If the game is good enough then likely we will keep feeding the parasite corp but these games tend to get dropped in a heartbeat when a better game comes along that doesn't double dip.
Great article. We do have a say in this type of stuff. People talk with their money and as long as there is an decent market out there and people keep paying they will keep coming. As long as people keep paying they won't be going anywhere.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Bottom line - I will not pay a sub fee to ANY game that offers a "pay to prosper" model via XP potions available through a cash shop.
Period, end of argument. For me, it's that simple. I play two MMO's without a cash shop now, with a sub-model only fee, and I'm quite happy.
Could not agree more, they should do micro or monthly but not both. I do not mind micro as it keeps out the gold buying low life. I also do not mind monthly as this way at least usually the good gear is only gotten by earning it even if you have a few gold buying low life's around. I do however feel a pain in my backside when they try to do both, because what happens is you just get the worst of both and the best of nothing. This is just my opinion I could be wrong.
That would be Charlie Daniels and the song was "Devil went down to Georgia".
Philistine.
Well they are certainly fiddling for their gold and selling their souls to the devil, rather an apt choice by Miss Skelton.
Couldnt agree more. To me when companies do this it just turns me away from their game. If i am already paying a sub, then that should be getting the player base new stuff. We shouldnt then have to pay for it to be unlocked, such as races etc. Major expansions sure. Everything else NO!! thats what my sub is paying for.
I hear some friends near to me complain about MT but they keep playing game and even buy some evenetually they prolly try buy to be show off or get that advantage if some items give them that.
I have my principles i refuse and i wont play p2p mmo's that offers MT but some of my gaming friends say they dont like it but keep playing and eventually buying.
And there is your problem majority just dont have backbone they complain but eventuall give up.
And for record only small portion of gaming community comes to forums and discus this MT subject so MASS just see something else introduced in game and just accept it.
And thats what developers are hoping MASS without any objection accept MT in there game.
It will even get worse then this soon they offer items gold that give clear advatange if your willing to pay.
But future will tell if people willing to pay 50 bucks for game 15 bucks monthly and buy there way to top money has to come from somewhere so many need to cut budget somewhere else to pay alot more for there mmo, are people willing to do that?....,i think not.
But will see they dont get my money hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
A very very sad state of affairs .... F2P games currently with RMT are an immediate turn off for me I am happy to pay a subscription but anything more is just unrealistic.
I am someone who can easily afford RMT item shops , but in my opinion I want to be on a level playing field cost wise. Time is another matter I am happy that people with no lives can invest more time and develop their ingame credentials more but the buying your way to the top to me renders most of these games redundant and no longer games.
I currently am having more fun playing well developed MUDs with small online communities than the current batch of MMOs as they don'y hack it anymore ever since AC1/EQ2 not one has been developed with any depth and are mainlky just whack a mole.
The Genre is dying and becoming just an online chat room but no longer great games. The only exceptions at the moment would be EvE , DFO where longevity and developing a charachter count and it isn't just about endgame in 10 minutes.
Thats not what an MMO is about , simple Arena games meet that requirement.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Good read!
I agree that EVE is an excellent model. Admittedly you can buy Plex but its the time you spend with the game that counts. EVE is also a game that you can casually play and still succeed since you can train when your away from your computer. I think the space combat is a little Meh and might not appeal to some since its more strategy than shoot em out dogfight. However, EVE has one of the strongest player communities out there and has a good balance of PVE and PVP although the PVP has a rather steep learning if not painful curve to follow. EVE has also given numerous FREE expansions. I think EVE's success is primarily due to the developing community having strong interest in the game and the player community rather than simply making a buck. I think they realize that by having a good game and support that people are going to want to stay and thus EVE is successful and makes money to keep going. Now.... If only we can get some more fantasy games that could do the same.
+experience items highlight the folly of playing their game, don't they?
They point out that their game is grindy and that their content is something you want to get through as quickly as possible. Why then play it at all unless there is some sort of light at the end of the tunnel?
I think this is such a huge issue in MMO games, and I'm glad to see an article specifically about this topic here.
It's obvious from the responses in this thread that there are people who are completely comfortable with RMT in subscription games. I don't understand those people. How can anyone be on the side of an argument where the only affect it has on them is that they have to pay more money? You might as well just donate a portion of your salary every month to your favorite game company, because supporting RMT in subscription games is the same thing - you're simply supporting giving them more money for nothing. To put it another way, adding a RMT mall onto a subscription game is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as increasing the subscription fee by a certain amount, so saying you support RMT in subscription games is saying you support higher subscription fees.
The only argument I've heard for RMT is that it enables the developer to create more content for the game. This is a load of bunk. That's not how a business works. They aren't going to divide out their income and say "we earned X from our Item Mall, so we'll turn that around and develop X worth of new content for the game." That's not the real world. That's now how a company works. The way the real world works is, the company looks at how much TOTAL income they're receiving from the game and from that they determine how much each department's budget will be. Which MIGHT mean that their content departments (art, sound, writers, designers, etc) get more money, but it also means more money is available for every other department like accounting, marketing, legal, HR, IT, corporate, and/or whoever else they decide to give a bigger budget to. In the end, the probable outcome is that MAYBE they pay the employees in their creative departments a little bit more and they continue to produce the exact same amount of content they would have if it was a regular subscription game.
First, thanks for replying. Second, I feel the need to state that I'm by no means trying to tar and feather you so if it may look like my writing is doing such I'm not. Eight years as a soldier and I still do the majority of things aggressively but certainly without any genuine malice. That said...
I don't think there is a mixed message being sent by western gamers. Irrespective of what the sales numbers say (even you admitted western numbers were foggy in this thread) I fell comfortable right at this moment making the uneducated (key word there) statement that the number of western gamers who don't use the Items shops is far, far, far greater that the numbers that do. Adding to that let's delve into the actual buyers of those items and I'd have to wonder how many of those transactions were by gold sellers.
As for playing gamer and reporter at once I may be able to sympathize with your inference as I've done the soldier and "diplomat" at once. Smile and grin but keep your thumb on the selector switch and be ready to shoot. I won't ask you to reveal your other "handles" on this or other sites for the obvious reason (and no, I'm not trying to stalk you, heheh).
I have to disagree a little on your take on why players aren't getting listened to. I think it's simply because it's the easiest route to go. Only one time really in the history of MMO gaming have players concerns been listen to with the route you propose and that other media and company officials have said which is to speak with their wallet: SWG. Even with that the company still didn't "listen" to it's player base and open up a classic server or two to give their previously paying customers what they wanted.
As for the summit or conference idea I think it'd give some formal representation for players. It may not make significant impact immediately yet once it had a few years to grow and establish some clout with the media and then gaming companies I think it may be able to effect some positive changes. I agree that having players follow any immediate manifesto because there isn't a clear, central avenue to communicate on such a large scale to MMO gamers. Sites like these are all we have. Efforts such as those that I mentioned would be to bring together various sites like these to get a more far reaching messaging and closer to full and proper representation. Not just for the RMT issue but for various other issues.
Trouble is a grassroots effort just won't work without some support from the gaming media and media sites (which at current will only remain neutral as you state) or by some well established company taking up the torch to get these recurring meeting in place. As I've said above, the companies aren't going to just listen to us at current (gamers want to play games and if this is all they're offering we have not much of another choice other than to not use the item malls or stop gaming). Such an effort needs a well known General to muster all the proper resources.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
No Micro Transactions In Sub based Games. Don't Hit my wallet for more than you already do. If you let me play for free maybe I can buy stuff from your store.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
So far all good games was subscription based. (with exception of Guild Wars). So I don't care about free to play games. If they make them the way, that one can not play without paying, then they die faster... Else it might take a bit longer.
Lets get to subscription based games.
As a lot people mentioned additional fee for race/class/name change or server transfer - we get used to be charged for that. Sometime is expensive, but still helps, since saves a lot of time, witch I will have to invest to create a new char and level up.
Anything extra - I'd say NO! Even if it's pure cosmetic, it still make me feel unfair.
Yet you gotta admit, there has been a large playerbase that felt that way, for a long time. More than a decade ago people were buying MMOs at regular box prices, and paying a monthly subscription, and spending a bunch more money buying from their friendly local goldfarmer.
Sure, plenty of people didn't. But you can't deny that enough did to sustain a booming goldfarming industry.
The MMO developers have tried to combat unauthorized RMT, they've seen how incredibly difficult it is when there is a massive demand for it from their playerbase, it's hardly surprising that they would eventually think to try to tap in on that demand themselves.
I also think RMT's have no damn place in P2P games! greedy bastard companies! take my monthly sub and enjoy that money. dont try to leech extra cash out of me with stupid item shops, xp pots, silly hats, little cute pets. WTF! GTFO!
Funcom you better not add a damn item shop or ill kill you!
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The force shall free me.
-the Sith code
Well I must admit I have tried a mirad of game types, hate F2P with a passion, and shall continue to play on monthly subs only!
If someone turns up on my door and mentions, "IT'S FREE", I promptly SLAM the door and hope that they hear me telling them what I think.
I am NOT playing any MMO atm because either the promises made by the Devs never came to see the light of day, or that they kept changing their minds on what model to follow, what to sell at what price, and the list goes on.
WELL I'M SICK OF THE BS. But I doubt these MMO Devs are taking much notice, just as with Ubisoft's new OnlineOnly policy. So I say good bye and await something that not only states all the rules, states clearly their plan and system, and what I get for what price.
Until then, I shall sit back and read all the whining, and hope that before I die I get to have some fun....
The justification of "Account Services" as RMT is just plain hogwash. Transfering a character's data from one server to the next is move involved (whether from a manual standpoint or to build out the technology to do so) and therefore is a reasonable "premium" service that has absolutely NO impact or relationship to the content of game experience.
Anything related to items - aesthetic, functional, or otherwise, should be relative to the commercial model of the game. If the game is P2P, everything should be included in the base subscription or offered as part of a retail expansion. As an expansion, if players do not feel they will get their money's worth of content - they just won't buy it. If the game is F2P, the expectation is that since you are paying for free, the game company needs an avenue to make revenue (to pay for staff, servers, etc) and their will be a cash shop of some sort.
There is NO PLACE for models that cross these thresholds. The ambiguity regarding what a subscription entitles the end-user - us - to becomes blurred and, even worse, subject to change over time. Yes, I believe if I am paying for a service that I am entitled to what the game offers in a complete package. People seem to forget that a game like Diablo 2 or Guild Wars (I won't argue that they are not completely MMOs in the purest sense) provide a semi-massively multiplayer gaming experience with a single retail purchase - no subscription or cash shop required.
MMOs are becoming overly greedy and looking for ways to line their pockets instead of looking for new ways of bringing players in and offering a unique and viable gaming experience.
In regards to the RMT, I would personally only worry if I'm paying a subscription and they are making me pay for new content on a regular basis to be able to further enjoy the game. That's where I believe my subscription costs go is into the actual game and my gameplay experiences.
The fluff that takes up most of the stores (even added bonuses) I find not even worth arguing for. It's unnecessary to most players' game experiences and hell, even added bonuses (usually in the form of exp potions) are a waste of money especially since in the current state of MMO's, leveling has become much easier compared to how it used to be. At least MMO's don't implement experience penalties upon death and leveling has become more and more of a chore rather than an experience these days. The real part of the MMO seems to be at the maximum level in theme-park designed games.
On a final note, with subscription costs and not having to pay for new content, I wonder why we as players put up with having to pay for expansions? EVE Online provides enough content in their "expansions" that you could of charged people for normally, but they choose to make theirs free. Why do we allow games like WoW to charge us almost the same amount($40 US) as a regular PC game just for additional content? Can't you argue that we ARE paying for added material? Just because it comes in a box, does it justify that we pay for this additional content while we pay for a subscription cost? Why aren't we all crying about this as well, I figure this should be a much bigger deal.
I think thats a good point:
Despite complaints about Stores and the whole 'buying extra's" evidence shows that when such shops open they are hugly successfull !
I remember the first time guildwars put a shop up for extra slots, everyone went mad! Even I bought a slot.. though I dont think to this day I ever used it! lol
I think it boils down to transparency and blurry conventions. When you visit a zoo, you pay an entrace fee to see animals. They won't charge you extra to see the tigers. And they won't claim that the fee paid at the entrance just covers creatures starting with a vowel, while the others require extra money, since the costs aren't covered with the entrance fee. In essence, there is a straightforward idea for what you are paying for, even though it's still vague in the details (because a zoo is large and there are many factors involved). You don't know exactly what animals they have or if the really interesting ones are currently hidden in a corner to sleep. MMORPGs in comparison have a lot of leeway, they are more like Lucky Bags and the conventions are blurry, what you actually pay for.
It seems to be a good idea to carve out conventions (original subscription-model did work), and infusing some transparency.