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Your Utopian Crafting System
axe_hero
Member Posts: 70
So a major question I used to always see on hype threads or messages about upcoming games (although a bit less often admittedly) is/was how is the crafting in this game?
So my main point and something I am very interested in about all of your opinions:
Define your perfect crafting system.
Things to think about (Though not a necessity in the response, just answer the preceding statement) :
Skill vs. Repetition.
For this imagine a continuum whith each on one side. The far Skill side would be a system where a player from the first second of playing the game would be able to make everything, that is if he has the skill necessary. The Repetition side would consist of a system where only the crafter who has spent hours upon hours crafting.
How Skill is implemented.
In say an FPS game, a skilled player has great twitch aim and is also able to strategically navigate the maps. If you want any skill involved in a crafting system how will it be implemented? Will there be some sort of minigame? Will you have to pound on the armor in a certain manner? Etc. Etc. Be sure to remember a that there is an element of fun in the system.
How materials are acquired.
Will you have to buy them from gatherers? If so why would people gather besides the gold (remember fun people). Will you have to embark on epic quests, kill raid bosses, engage in pvp, travel to the far ends of the map and back several times?
The Power of crafted goods.
From having read quite a few threads over the years on this site I would venture to guess most would be in agreement that the most powerful items are player made. If this is true how do you prevent over production of the powerful items? How do you decide who receives them (will everyone have to be a crafter if they want to have the best armor?).
How are crafted items sold?
The three options I have seen for this are Auction Houses, bizarres, and player owned shops. Can the most powerful items even be sold?
You don't need to write a novel to answer (although I will read and appreciate it if you do). I'm just very curious as to what people think.
"Time is not money, it is much more;
For I would give my very last dollar just to have one more moment on this Earth;
But I can't, for time does not accept payoffs, only lives"
Comments
What I would like is if there were not that many recipes. Just a few. Beyond that, give me some tools, and some processes, and let me collect materials wherever I can find them, to combine at my discretion.
Then let me play with all that stuff. I add some dragons blood I got in a raid to 3 bars of bronze I have and put it in the fire for 10 minutes, and see what it makes? Maybe it makes nothing special, and maybe it makes a flaming +25 sword. If it does make a cool sword, then I have a family recipe that I can use and people will want swords that Amathe makes.
I would really like to feel like I can discover things - secret things - and not just grind out prefabricated crap.
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SWG had a great crafting system.... it's still mostly there but wtf is the point in playing the game now? Especially if you want to play as a crafter. :-/
The worst part is that FE seemed to have followed alot of what made SWG great before NGE................ EXCEPT FREAKING CRAFTING! FE crafting blows hard. Other than that, nobody has even attempted to try and replicate SWG's crafting. I don't really understand it, tbh. For MMO crafters, SWG was like the holy grail.
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I'll tell you that I hate crafting. Despise it. Loath it. If it was removed from every game that I play from now until death I would rejoice. Probably pay more money per month on my own just to thank the game maker.
That's how much I hate it. And I'm being nice. I rarely if NEVER craft in games.
However, I noticed something a few years ago while messing with a neverwinter nights trainer for characters.
Among many of the things it had was the ability to change all sorts of things on the weapons and armor.
You could change 3 parts of the looks of a sword (pommel, Hilt and Blade Shape ... maybe even different parts of the blade) or change several parts on the armor along with simple dying of the item. This was using the in game art that the toolset had.
I would redesign the weapons and armor for hours. I suddenly realized I don't hate crafting in the sense of "making something new". I hate gathering bits upon bits that make more bits so that I can reproduce some in game item that will be replaced by some boss drop.
so....
My utopian crafting system has more to do with a crafting mini-game, maybe something along the same lines of the game "Enigmo" as far as manipulating crafting elements, and a way to create "designs" so that there is control over the look of the item. Or in the case of a potion "what" that potion actually does.
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It was a mixture of quite a few things that made SWG's crafting system so awesome. The resource system they used was innovative and never seen before. Also, its never been seen since. Housing and Vendors, along with Factories and Harvestors combined to make crafting in SWG a whole new way to play online, all without killing or fighting anything.
The grind to master was in itself a harrowing and painful experience, thats a fine example of Repetition if ever Ive seen it.
But after that, man was it ever sweet. I spent as much time jumping from planet to planet surveying for new resources (which ultimately was the secret to being a great crafter, not just a good one) as I did actually running my store.
And its about time someone else spoke up about the travesty that is FE crafting. Its the least sandboxy thing of all, in a game that is so far removed from being a sandbox that it makes my head spin.
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The funniest thing about your post is where you mention the fact you "hate gathering bits upon bits that make more bits" and yet your LOTRO signature shows youre a 6/5 Prospector.
Im not having a go at you though, dont get me wrong. Resource gathering, as Ive mentioned in my post about SWG, can be a extremely rewarding, and most times very profitable (you simply sell onto crafters who cant be bothered) part of any MMO if implemented properly.
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I think simple crafting systems can work, particularly when they're layered onto games which are already solid.
However my ideal crafting system would involve actual decisionmaking, so that player skill plays some role in the creation of stuff. Basically the same sort of decision-making as what makes fighting monsters popular in MMORPGs: an array of abilities which you use proactive and reactively based on the situation at hand. Naturally this also warrants some dynamicism in the types of situations you face (MMORPG PVE combat wouldn't be interesting for long if you only fought the same creature type.)
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Utopian Crafting System? One that is simplistic, but difficult to master. The one used in Ryzom is one of the best I've seen so far. If anything, it could use more variety to choose cosmetic look of the items.
The SWG (Pre-NGE) crafting system with player owned shops. No Auction Halls. No against the idea of a global directory/advertising system using ideas like the Merchant skill tree in SWG (pre-NGE).
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SWG did many things right tbh, the crafting system was a good way to bring inmore casual type of people who loved the lore and ability to still play a part in the game. They were able to spend many hours doing what alot of them enjoyed like survey, mine, gather, build and craft in a fairly player driven economy.
Not only were they able to do that well but it also boosted the player base and activity in general of the servers bringing not only population, but a true community feel. It expanded on the crafting/gathering a bit in a cool way by allowing designers and collectors to decorate housing and give a reason for housing.....I use to like going to old orad's shop to BS and look at all his collection while he made my gear. People took a liking to not only the crafting system but the perks of the vendoring/housing which like someone said before nobody has really bothered to go after that market anymore...
Take a look at say the past 3-4 years of mmo genre out now and the craptastic crafting they toss in to make the game a bit more detailed and has not worked.
STO= total epic fail of crafting if I ever saw it
AION= it was either my g-15 or aion, I had to quit to save it's life.
WARHAMMER= totally pointless to bother crafting, gather some make some pots and thats all.( lack of gold use too kills it )
But some games did do it well, take eve for example they targeted player base like SWG did and to this day many many people take great pride in building. a crafting system shouldn't be considered a mindless time sink only ment to fill a few gaps in a game. it does take time to develop a system that is not only interesting but rewarding and the next game that does it well will be the next sucessful mmo imo.
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I'd say a ideal crafting system rewards people who have a keen eye or luck gathering the "goods" to build sorta like the rare spawns in swg did, something that you can take pride in making and marketing that will not be replaced by a excessive drop rate. Say a axe that rivals the best boss drops, but has a chance to go one up on it's power. but a very very rare chance.
In general to say a game will or needs good crafting is only part of the system involved, but it also is a razors edge to allowing credit sellers a means to do a steady income to sell credits. I like to think "crafting" is really only part of the system.
Gathering= IE animal pelts, hides, fungus etc. rare procs while gathering for unique item bonus.
Mining= Do the random luck spawns (swg), the more rare the more risk (eve o.o ). This allows for trade and commerce.
Crafting= Should be 40% skills, 40% recipe item quality, 20% proc luck to create a unique proc. But still quality goods to sell.
Marketing= Vendors, (NO Fing personal shops, just ends up being a spam fest ) Lets see a bit of political influnce here, black marketing, bartering bribing a bit to make it interesting. IE: say you know don in a town he gives you a slight marketing cost reduction. Or if you pissed off with cheechs daughter from tatooine you cannot market there and need to use a black market vendor system which cost more to enter stuff ont he global markets.
any of them 4 fails and it's a problem in the entire system of "crafting". The reason games like the sims, and farmville etc are popular is there is people who just like to be involved with indepth GOOD systems, I see myself as more of a pvper, but I do like to relax and craft a few trinkets if the system is good. It adds depth to the game simple as that, the more the better.
Tell you what, if SWTOR can make a go at a indepth cross breed system of eve/swg and develop a system people will flock to it in droves and stay loyal. Targeting that market, and a pvp/pve market would not fail. Star wars in general is so vast on the ability to make a truely cool crafting system it's un real for them to not even try.
Sorry didn't mean to babble so much TY for reading.
lol, I know right?
It was the only way I could make money for a bit. I started crafting but just hated it. So I would just gather ore as I went along and then sell the stacks. For me it was the less of the two evils.
I would also probably say that of every game I've ever played (online game) it is the highest I have ever gotten any type of crafting score. I actually changed my professions so that I wold have the extra gathering skill but never once used it.
As a point of note I no longer prospect (which of course you can see). And since I"ve had this character since launch that is quite a long time.
So no mystery there. Just doing what I had to do to make money.
edit: But I do have a Utopian crafting system. Thing is, for me crafting should be making something and should have creativity. As I mentioned, what I found was that I loved crafting when it was under this Neverwinter Nights module/trainer. But not how it's conceived and implemented in these games.
So instead of gathering bits to make bits I want to gather or buy only a few bits the use a mini-game for the crafting. Then apply creativity.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So, the OP asking specifically about a utopian crafting system and not a utopian economy -- an important distinction imho. With that said, I think the type CoH/V uses comes closest to a utopian crafting system and here's why:
Anyone can craft anything if they have a.) a recipe b.) the materials and c.) the money; there's no need to grind up a skill to ultimately produce something you need. Sounds simple but combined with restrictions on the amounts of each you can have on hand,stored at the marketplace or pay to store in your base, as well as the rarity of items due to most being drops, it forces you to dump items on the market or sell it out of the system if you have specific things you are looking to craft.
The real beauty of the system? The game is balanced around not needing crafted enhancements (items) to play so it is strictly an optional endeavor and, given there is a consignment house, people can still reap the rewards of crafting without doing it.
Now, if you want to talk about (near-)utopian economy, that would be Star Wars Galaxies....
A system where crafted items dont take a back seat to drops. Most games i have played the crafting system does not produce items that are worth a crap. SWG's systesm was really nice. Aions system minus the heavy rng and mat costs would be fantastic items produced in aions system are as good as or better than drops which is really nice for those that like to craft altho the implementation of it in Aion made me want to punch myself in the balls. I would just like to see crafted items be on par with ot slightly better than drops weather it be raid drops world boss drops dungeon drops...you get the picture. Give those that like to craft a reason to do so besides crapping out the same useless bullshit. Also soulbinding is fine but crafted items should never be BoP they should always be BoE.
I both loved and hated the crafting system in SWG. It offered so many options and made sure that the best items would be made by pwople who actually understood what they were doing.
At the same tiem whoever came up with the grind to level the crafting professions was and idiot and/or sadist. Teh way it was done made absolutely no sense to me. I would gather the requisite materials and grind away making the cheapest, crappiest items I could so I could get the few points of crafting xp to advance. It was a pointless, mindless activity that required the same attention and amount of clicking as creating a custom item out of the best mats. I had to give up on becomning a crafter because all that clicking and navigating the pointlesss UI, made my wrist unusable for a couple days.
I guess it was a symptom of the actual illness that plagued SWG where great, complex systems were combined wiht the crappiest technical implementations ever.
crafted gear is as powerful and cool looking as dropped gear
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
My utopian crafting system would be any crafting system that's in any game that I have no plans on playing. Crafting and devs catering to crafters have ruined to many games already. Keep the focus on the combat and risk vs reward systems, thanks.
And that is why I left WoW, it took NO skill or anything...it didn't even really take time, I was leveling up my engineering and it had taken me around 2 months to get it up to almost 350, and I was saving up to get a gyro-copter, and one of my high level friends was like "wow thats cool" So he BOUGHT all the mats for engineering, and leveled it up to cap in a matter of hours, and had a gyro-copter within a day, I was upset enough that I quite the game.
My perfect system doesn't exist, BUT the closest one I have seen is FFXI's crafting system, even if you did have the mats it didn't mean you where going to level up a skill, you could "fail" at the receipe. So it took awhile to level up, and you could make diffrent level of items (by chance)
And I guess the thing I liked about FFXI's crafting, is that not many people had it capped, even when I was playing 4 years into the game. I had a friend who had just capped gold smithing when I quite FFXI, and it had taken them around 3 years to do it, But it was worth it because the items they made where actually BETTER then most drops.
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I dislike crafting, even though I do it out of necessity. But so far the best I have seen so far in my opinion is Fallen Earth.
Yes but what is skill and how are recipes acquired, you mentioned having a keen eye so I suppose that is part of the skill for the gatherer, must the crafter be the gatherer as well? In actually making that rare axe you mentioned what must the player do?
Are recipes acquired randomly? Or by some clever assemblance of materials (to later be posted on the internet for everyone to know)?
"Time is not money, it is much more;
For I would give my very last dollar just to have one more moment on this Earth;
But I can't, for time does not accept payoffs, only lives"
Very interesting, so something like the player has multiple tools and materials that he can use/ combine to create different items if I understand you correctly. Would the player simply choose these tools/materials or would he also have to endure some sort of mini game or quick time event (ya I said it) or some other element of skill besides ingenuity?
"Time is not money, it is much more;
For I would give my very last dollar just to have one more moment on this Earth;
But I can't, for time does not accept payoffs, only lives"
Sorry, haven't exactly followed the way you wanted for ideas to be presented. I read the thread title and had to write what came into my head in the way it "appeared" and I'm out of time to format those ideas.
- No equipment dropped from monsters.
This means everything will be player crafted, of course, you will have to hunt boss X because you will need his specific scales to craft that awesome equipment. Monsters dropping raw resources is fine, but dropping already-made equipment is 99% of the time ridiculous. This complex system will make every monster, especially bosses, worth the hunting for one or more specific equipments that will require that material.
- Two tiers of durability.
Tier one will be the current gold sink we are all so fond of. Tier two will be a number of total durability an equipment can have repaired before it is finally going to break. Both tiers will - you guessed it, will depend on a lot of factors to promote the best crafters of that area to be desirable for... you guessed it again, crafting your stuff.
- Player repairing.
Players will be the ones repairing equipment. There will still be NPCs doing that job, but they will have a considerably low skill level for doing it. This means you want a good crafter repairing your stuff if you want it to last longer and perhaps not even lose durability at all in some lucky repairs.
- Less arbitrary skill level
Most MMOs require you to have a specific X point of a crafting skill so you can magically be able to make it, with 100% success chance. My idea instead is to have a success (including critical success or whatever other types of successful or fails) that is never 0% and never 100% (it will get very close to it though), and slowly get better as the player levels his crafting skills. More complicated crafts see less improvement per skill level. Time to craft will also be here.
- A soft cap instead of a hard cap.
This means that your crafting skill won't stop at a mysterious even number such as 500, 100, or whatever. Every craft will have a soft cap in which from that point on will be very hard to improve your skill level with that craft (not impossible though, you can always learn something out of anything), and from which crafting chance improvements will be very small (but as you guessed, not zero). Eventually, depending on the update pace of the game, you will hit the soft cap for every craft available in that skill. But there will still be room for improvement.
- Multiple skills per character limitations
Instead of an arbitrary X crafting skills allowed per character, let players have as many as they want, but the more they have, the harder overall they will be to improve. Lets you play with a single character if you wish to do so, instead of creating secondary characters maybe just to benefit from a more self-sufficient crafting capability. This extra difficulty is to compensate the work you'd have developing the secondary character, so both choices are viable.
- Benefits in everything, scalable equipment, no arbitrary level requirements
Like an equipment that is as good as the crafter skills (and some luck), the usage of the crafted equipment should be the same way. Instead of arbitrary X stats on that equipment, it will be impacted by the player using it. Maybe even following the soft cap concept I presented earlier in this post. This way a player will be using stuff depending on the difficulty they are expecting as they will have the choice of wearing cheap stuff that is also cheap to repair rather than a very expensive armor that he cannot effectively use or that is too good and expensive to be used for that occasion (an "overkill", wasted durability that could be better spent in a harder situation).
I completely agree.
Especially with the "no equipment" dropping from mobs but that if one kills a dragon or destroys some sort of High Tech Robo assassin, that they use what they get as a special component for the item.
To be honest I agree with all of this.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Mine actually revolves around a couple of other game mechanics being altered.
Ideally for me: Extreme customization at character creation including appearance of gear(no not making plate look like chain or leather) such as the shape, cut and color. Different armor materials as with weapons should have different attributes. Two knights start out wearing the same plate stat wise, but it looks different. Inversely two knights wearing different materials(plate/chain) have different bonuses to resistances.
Same with weapons and other gear.
That gear then improves as you do. No looted gear in the game. Crafting is for altering the look of that equipment(say as new options become available), or changing from say a long sword to a mace, plate to chain mail and so on. And of course crafting other types of items, foods, potions, vehicles, housing, decorations et cetera.
Aside from that, SWG's crafting is the best system I have ever encountered.
Not like my opinion counts for anything around here. But yeah I really like those ideas
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Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
i want to buy mats form npcs.
no stupid mining and grinding for materials.
the quality of my items comes from the skilllevel of my crafting ability,not from some "epic" recipe.
Why not being able to create a "epic-purple" lvl 1 sword?
I wanna feel the on-going of my skill.
not this WoW crap system we get shoved in , in almost every mmorpg.
If anyone knows neocron, that game has a very nice crafting system.