All valid items but I think you missed the cardinal rule that developers over look. The #1 rule is "Perception equals Reality". What I perceive as a gamer is the reality of that game. The biggest fault of NGE was the perception that Sony did not give a damn about it's player base. And that became the reality. Jack Emmert of Cryptic Studios once said to the effect on the CoH forums that the game isn't fun if it isn't hard. I read that as masochism is fun. Perception = Reality!
I would like to add this: Do not listen to the forums.
I think developers should ignore anyone they do not know that comment on their game. Only listen to the balance tweaks and consider all the options.
The average forum user is someone that is not playing your game. They probably do not have the game's best interest in mind. They certainly have no clue how to change it for the better.
I look back to the classics. They did not bend to the will of rants and raves. They stuck by their guns and made games we talk about to this day.
Not one time has a game been changed for the better. Its going to sink or swim based on its launch alone. Nothing else matters. No one will admit that fact. Time has proven it true
Follow your (developers, designers, company) goals. Listen only to yourself. Ignore everything you read. Your ideas are what will make your game suceed or fail. Your work will be the stuff we spend hundreds of hours on. Your dreams will be our envy.
Not a single forum post is of any relevance to you. We are so totally ignorant on every concept of game design that we dont even know we are ignorant. We claim we know exactly how to make your game fun, yet 85 percent of the forum users dont know how to install a graphic driver.
agree very much just wanted to add something to number 4.
if devs could take time to "Why" and "Why not" those thing are absurd or dont match game style or its a core feature and must not be changed, that MAY control the hype, nowaday all rellies on avid fanboys or trolls and then you have a huge mess of missinformation.
my 2 cents.
This is one of the reasons Turbine is one of the best MMO companies out there in my eyes. Even when they make unpopular changes (and face it, sometimes unpopular changes are needed), they always at least give us the reasons WHY they did it. They don't hide away when the heat is on, they'll tell you why your class was nerfed, why so and so feature hasn't been added/expanded upon, etc. So even if you don't agree with some changes you at least know where the devs are coming from, and that they're not monkees throwing darts at a board randomly to see which abilities to nerf or buff next.
I like #2 the best. Too many times it seems fans and devs think the critics want them to fail. We bought the product, right? That probably means we had high hopes at some point.
I think you forgot the golden rule, though. There is already a WoW.
For #3 I would to say that is wasn't the NGE that should be remembered, it's the CU.
It's the CU that caused probably over 100,000 to leave the game the months before and the day it came out. The NGE just finished off a dying animal with a shot to the head.
For #3 I would to say that is wasn't the NGE that should be remembered, it's the CU.
It's the CU that caused probably over 100,000 to leave the game the months before and the day it came out. The NGE just finished off a dying animal with a shot to the head.
Last i checked when you finish something off its gone, guess what, SWG is still here.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I would like to add it is a good idea for a Developer to never flat out lie to subscribers and then make it even worse by deleting forum posts or editing posts to make it look like you never lied. I'm sure everyone could find an example somewhere of some MMO doing this. Likely a MMO that promised that there would never be a cash store or non fluff items in a cash store but there are other lies out there that Devs have tried to cover up or deny.
For #3 I would to say that is wasn't the NGE that should be remembered, it's the CU.
It's the CU that caused probably over 100,000 to leave the game the months before and the day it came out. The NGE just finished off a dying animal with a shot to the head.
Last i checked when you finish something off its gone, guess what, SWG is still here.
Former SWG Vet here <-- and SWG is mostly dead. It's more like They shot it in the chest with the CU which caused massive fall out, then shot it again in the throat to watch it drown in it's own blood.
SWG is closing servers on a massive scale and will be finished off when ToR Runs out. Besides EMU and ANH have pretty much every player who ever even looked at SWG at this point so yeah...they're willing to risk the law rather than subscribe to SOE.
Great List btw, No real disagreements and to the point, yes We fans do remember, and we do keep going. EQ2 Why? It was terrible compared to the Original, it required no skill at all. and SoE you ruined my Galaxies...SoE is practically a swear word amonst my friends and I. We hate them almost as much as we Hate Blizzard for doing a good job. (Yes I hate WoW but wont deny they did a good job. You can tell by the annoying amount of clones they have.)
#7 Don't buy a license to someone else's intellectual property unless you feel like putting forth the effort to create a game world that properly relfects said intellectual property.
Amen to that one.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have to disagree in some extent to this one. I would say part of the community is vocal, but they make a lot of noise. In the universe of mmo gamers only a fraction of them actually read forums even less post on them. However, they are enough to turn any forum into a mess if enough moderation is not used. I think community managers has to be prepared to deal with a great sort of personalities some of them nice but many of them pretty unpleasant, a psych degree could be helpful for CMs.
This is pretty much something that I have thought for a while. No problem at first, but they main issue is that part of the vocal community is pretty assertive themselves, which can be pretty annoying for Devs when they actually know that #4 is true.
I would call it a love/hate relation, hardcore gamers are quick to love but also to hate games. They loved if they please them but they feel betrayed if they don't reach their expectations.
Partially true, only if the game is on their good side. On the other hand, if they hate the game they want the company fall in pieces for daring to displease them.
In conclusion, what this five principles are telling me is that the industry is dealing with a overassertive/bipolar/unstable crowd so I feel for what devs and cms have to deal with.
As usual another great and thought provoking article to say the least as far as the individual points made I liked and agree pretty fully with #5. I had some difficulty with #4 because truth be told my experience in most mmo's does not lend so strongly to games failing or not always because they listened to the player base. One thing is as long as that argument suits someones view point they will actually (in the minds eye) magnify "how many posts they saw asking for said change" and to me that's giving ones who argue that point the benefit of the doubt. I heard that was the case though with either Ultima or DAOC (wasn't around mmo's for eithers heyday so I'm not sure which) but from when my mmo experience has started I heard it offered often as an excuse for what happened in SWG and I disagree strongly with that sentiment. What I've noticed about changes in alot of games is the changes are often out of left field and unfortunately far too often designed to increase the companies bottom line more than appease any existing customer base be it the all too popular item shop or the watering down of rules to reach for that larger audience.
#3 is another good point hard to argue with because even given the fact that I am more impressed by the production standards of offline pc and console games the majority of the memories of gaming I hold in the highest regard are from mmo's. For sometimes obvious reasons mmo's graphically lag behind console/offline games and many times an offline or console game can have an event with so much depth to it it leaves you wishing that game was an mmo you could play for months and years and I think of lots of examples of experiences in offline games but still more than half my top ten "event" list is probably from mmo's now.
#2 Agreed here for the most part though I think there may be atleast one or two instances of companies being shown too much hate for dropping a game that just isn't fun. As a whole I agree but there have been posts I've read where people are screaming for heads because they didn't enjoy a game or simply because they spent over one hundred hours playing in one month got to max and got bored, but overall I think the pulse of the community shows through more often than not.
#1- I don't really think we are "fickle" as much as we are an obviously diverse group, mmo companies potential pool of customers includes techies who are probably the first mmo community these are people who may have worked on or work with technology but may not necessarily have ever played a video game. I may even add a small percentage of people who may have just been hardcore pen and paper gamers but even adding those two together that segment is dwarfed by mmo's next pool of customers which were are gamers. I don't think predicting what is going to happen and why is that hard which points away from us being fickle, take a game like AOC they have had up's and downs and it doesn't take a psychic to see that if Gaute Godager continued to run that company he would run it into the ground, and as someone who just doesn't click with Funcom anyway I knew from when CM wrote that first letter to the community that the game would probably move towards honorable mention in the history of mmo turnarounds which are few and far between. I think what is more important than saying we are fickle is we are intelligent, if you are making changes to the game primarily because it increases YOUR bottom line profit margin we will know it and if it happens to hinder our play we will speak with both our keyboards and our wallets.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Comments
Wow that is a great list, I fully agree with each subject. (:
+1
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I was going to say hypocritical, but you pretty much covered it under #1. Good list.
All valid items but I think you missed the cardinal rule that developers over look. The #1 rule is "Perception equals Reality". What I perceive as a gamer is the reality of that game. The biggest fault of NGE was the perception that Sony did not give a damn about it's player base. And that became the reality. Jack Emmert of Cryptic Studios once said to the effect on the CoH forums that the game isn't fun if it isn't hard. I read that as masochism is fun. Perception = Reality!
I would like to add this: Do not listen to the forums.
I think developers should ignore anyone they do not know that comment on their game. Only listen to the balance tweaks and consider all the options.
The average forum user is someone that is not playing your game. They probably do not have the game's best interest in mind. They certainly have no clue how to change it for the better.
I look back to the classics. They did not bend to the will of rants and raves. They stuck by their guns and made games we talk about to this day.
Not one time has a game been changed for the better. Its going to sink or swim based on its launch alone. Nothing else matters. No one will admit that fact. Time has proven it true
Follow your (developers, designers, company) goals. Listen only to yourself. Ignore everything you read. Your ideas are what will make your game suceed or fail. Your work will be the stuff we spend hundreds of hours on. Your dreams will be our envy.
Not a single forum post is of any relevance to you. We are so totally ignorant on every concept of game design that we dont even know we are ignorant. We claim we know exactly how to make your game fun, yet 85 percent of the forum users dont know how to install a graphic driver.
This is one of the reasons Turbine is one of the best MMO companies out there in my eyes. Even when they make unpopular changes (and face it, sometimes unpopular changes are needed), they always at least give us the reasons WHY they did it. They don't hide away when the heat is on, they'll tell you why your class was nerfed, why so and so feature hasn't been added/expanded upon, etc. So even if you don't agree with some changes you at least know where the devs are coming from, and that they're not monkees throwing darts at a board randomly to see which abilities to nerf or buff next.
I like #2 the best. Too many times it seems fans and devs think the critics want them to fail. We bought the product, right? That probably means we had high hopes at some point.
I think you forgot the golden rule, though. There is already a WoW.
For #3 I would to say that is wasn't the NGE that should be remembered, it's the CU.
It's the CU that caused probably over 100,000 to leave the game the months before and the day it came out. The NGE just finished off a dying animal with a shot to the head.
Nice list but I wonder how much # 2 is true in the minds of the masses.
#5 Players are so vocal that they may turn many other potential customers away for selfish reasons. How often do you hear "go back to WoW"?
Nice list.
Best list for a while. Enjoyed reading it and can't find anything I don't agree with. Good work.
Last i checked when you finish something off its gone, guess what, SWG is still here.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Wow, after reading that list I can see why everyone thinks we are losers.
Good read, good responses. Thank you.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Good list! Definitely agree. Poor developers, listen to us we don't know what we want or maybe we do or don't - love it!
Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.
Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
Waiting: SWToR & GW2
I would like to add it is a good idea for a Developer to never flat out lie to subscribers and then make it even worse by deleting forum posts or editing posts to make it look like you never lied. I'm sure everyone could find an example somewhere of some MMO doing this. Likely a MMO that promised that there would never be a cash store or non fluff items in a cash store but there are other lies out there that Devs have tried to cover up or deny.
Former SWG Vet here <-- and SWG is mostly dead. It's more like They shot it in the chest with the CU which caused massive fall out, then shot it again in the throat to watch it drown in it's own blood.
SWG is closing servers on a massive scale and will be finished off when ToR Runs out. Besides EMU and ANH have pretty much every player who ever even looked at SWG at this point so yeah...they're willing to risk the law rather than subscribe to SOE.
Great List btw, No real disagreements and to the point, yes We fans do remember, and we do keep going. EQ2 Why? It was terrible compared to the Original, it required no skill at all. and SoE you ruined my Galaxies...SoE is practically a swear word amonst my friends and I. We hate them almost as much as we Hate Blizzard for doing a good job. (Yes I hate WoW but wont deny they did a good job. You can tell by the annoying amount of clones they have.)
Amen to that one.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Good list. Hard to not agree with any of these points...
I've been uplinked and downloaded, I've been inputted and outsourced. I know the upside of downsizing, I know the downside of upgrading.
I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
I'm new-wave, but I'm old-school; and my inner child is outward-bound.
I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
RIP George Carlin.
#X. We despise immitation and reward innovation.
Currently Playing: The Game
It's extremely ironic to name BioWare as example against hype given the SWTOR fuss going on for ages already.
My Signature
#5 We're vocal
I have to disagree in some extent to this one. I would say part of the community is vocal, but they make a lot of noise. In the universe of mmo gamers only a fraction of them actually read forums even less post on them. However, they are enough to turn any forum into a mess if enough moderation is not used. I think community managers has to be prepared to deal with a great sort of personalities some of them nice but many of them pretty unpleasant, a psych degree could be helpful for CMs.
#4 We don't always know what we want
This is pretty much something that I have thought for a while. No problem at first, but they main issue is that part of the vocal community is pretty assertive themselves, which can be pretty annoying for Devs when they actually know that #4 is true.
#3 We are tied to these games
I would call it a love/hate relation, hardcore gamers are quick to love but also to hate games. They loved if they please them but they feel betrayed if they don't reach their expectations.
#2 We want you to succeed
Partially true, only if the game is on their good side. On the other hand, if they hate the game they want the company fall in pieces for daring to displease them.
#1 We're fickle
So basically, we have issues
In conclusion, what this five principles are telling me is that the industry is dealing with a overassertive/bipolar/unstable crowd so I feel for what devs and cms have to deal with.
We are human, we are not all idiots or savants, don’t listen too hard but don’t ignore us, that’s the happy medium.
Great list. Very well thought out and written. Devs should stickie this list to their monitors...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
As usual another great and thought provoking article to say the least as far as the individual points made I liked and agree pretty fully with #5. I had some difficulty with #4 because truth be told my experience in most mmo's does not lend so strongly to games failing or not always because they listened to the player base. One thing is as long as that argument suits someones view point they will actually (in the minds eye) magnify "how many posts they saw asking for said change" and to me that's giving ones who argue that point the benefit of the doubt. I heard that was the case though with either Ultima or DAOC (wasn't around mmo's for eithers heyday so I'm not sure which) but from when my mmo experience has started I heard it offered often as an excuse for what happened in SWG and I disagree strongly with that sentiment. What I've noticed about changes in alot of games is the changes are often out of left field and unfortunately far too often designed to increase the companies bottom line more than appease any existing customer base be it the all too popular item shop or the watering down of rules to reach for that larger audience.
#3 is another good point hard to argue with because even given the fact that I am more impressed by the production standards of offline pc and console games the majority of the memories of gaming I hold in the highest regard are from mmo's. For sometimes obvious reasons mmo's graphically lag behind console/offline games and many times an offline or console game can have an event with so much depth to it it leaves you wishing that game was an mmo you could play for months and years and I think of lots of examples of experiences in offline games but still more than half my top ten "event" list is probably from mmo's now.
#2 Agreed here for the most part though I think there may be atleast one or two instances of companies being shown too much hate for dropping a game that just isn't fun. As a whole I agree but there have been posts I've read where people are screaming for heads because they didn't enjoy a game or simply because they spent over one hundred hours playing in one month got to max and got bored, but overall I think the pulse of the community shows through more often than not.
#1- I don't really think we are "fickle" as much as we are an obviously diverse group, mmo companies potential pool of customers includes techies who are probably the first mmo community these are people who may have worked on or work with technology but may not necessarily have ever played a video game. I may even add a small percentage of people who may have just been hardcore pen and paper gamers but even adding those two together that segment is dwarfed by mmo's next pool of customers which were are gamers. I don't think predicting what is going to happen and why is that hard which points away from us being fickle, take a game like AOC they have had up's and downs and it doesn't take a psychic to see that if Gaute Godager continued to run that company he would run it into the ground, and as someone who just doesn't click with Funcom anyway I knew from when CM wrote that first letter to the community that the game would probably move towards honorable mention in the history of mmo turnarounds which are few and far between. I think what is more important than saying we are fickle is we are intelligent, if you are making changes to the game primarily because it increases YOUR bottom line profit margin we will know it and if it happens to hinder our play we will speak with both our keyboards and our wallets.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....