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Too much WoW not enough GW
Draanimrev
Member Posts: 13
Dont get me wrong. I want this game to be great but the more they reveal the more I realize that they have been more influenced by WoW than by GW.
Lets see here:
Characters: No more dual class. Half of your skill bar determined by your weapon. Yes you can take the wait and see approach but no matter how you slice it this is a major dumbing down of the character build system that made GW great. No more will there be unique and creative builds for people to come up with. For example I played a ranger without a single bow skill. Those kind of builds are going to be nonexistant now. And make no mistake about it even the devs have admitted that this is dumbing down the skill system but they did it because it was "too hard" to balance all the builds people came up with.
Levels: GW capped at level 20. Depending on which expansion you were playing, you could be 20 in a few hours tops. The level cap is yet to be disclosed but I do not hesitate to promise you that the good ole leveling tread mill will be front and center in this game. Reaching max level will take a long time which will make the fact that character are so restrictive even more frustrating. With dual class you could essentially try out any class you wanted but now you will have to repeat the level grind all over.
Loot: GW had a simple and brilliant loot system. High level armor was about cosmetics more than anything else. Unique weapons could mostly be duplicated through upgrades. Bookmark this page and come back and tell me I was right in a few weeks when they reveal the loot system for GW2 because I guarantee you now that it is going to be a standard boring green/blue/purple loot system complete with the obligatory loot grind.
PvP: WvW sounds great in concept now but the balance will be ruined by the fact that the game is loot and item based. And competitive PvP is now 5 vs 5. Hrmmm a certain other game's high end PvP is 5 vs 5 also.
Missions: One of the coolest and most innovative features from GW. Dungeons are boring. You dont "beat" a dungeon. You go in kill the boss, collect the loot, and leave. Missions are so much more indepth and interesting. I can remember the great feeling of accomplishment I had when I beat the crystal desert for the first time. The closest to this might be the personal story but now that they have begun talking about personal stories no where have they paralleled it to missions. You would think they would just come out and say "GW players will find this similar to missions from GW" but they havent said anything like that.
Heroes: I will not deny that they cause their share of problems. And they do limit the need to group with other players. But that said they were part of what made Guildwars Guildwars. It was really fun to outfit your heroes and come up with interesting team compositions. Thats a really big gameplay style that people enjoyed that they are lopping off.
Auction House: This one makes me really angry. I LOVED the resource vendors in GW. No waiting around for buyers. If you wanted to sell something you go to the resource vendor and he would give you fair market value for it. Likewise when you wanted to buy something. No worries of getting price gouged by someone. Just go to the vendor and buy it at fair market value. The absolute best and most brilliant system of loot trading ever. Let me reiterate - I am really really pissed about this. But I guess all the "cool" games have auction houses so lets axe another innovation.
So despite my negative tone I am still anxious to learn more about GW2 and I am still hoping it will be a good game. But I think the writing is on the wall. They have taken a major step backwards from all of the innovation of Guildwars and are instead attempting to make an updated version of the standard loot based level based theme park MMO. I wish them luck. At least they are still sticking to no subscriptions (for now).
Comments
Holy wall of text, Batman. Add a few line breaks to that rant and I might read it.
lol I had no script on and for some reason it didnt post my layout. should be fixed now.
ah you saw it, nevermind.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ah, good. I think that's the first time someone actually revised their wall of text after my prompting.
I agree with your concerns on most points. I think GW1 was a brilliant game, probably my favorite in the considerable number of MMOs I've played. I honestly hope GW2 is more alike than different.
That said, I do think it's a little early to be overly pessimistic. I too was disappointed when I heard about the removal of secondary classes. However, after reading some discussions on the topic I'm starting to think Anet may be onto something here. When it comes down to it, most GW1 builds only used their secondary for 1-2 utility skills, like a condi removal or what have you. This led to some interesting variation, yes, but to say you were truly playing a combination of 2 classes is an exaggeration (in most cases). Assuming they make those utility skills available to the core classes in some form, the need for secondaries is removed.
As to gear-based combat and what not, we don't know enough about the item system to really draw any conclusions. It's entirely reasonable to assume it will work similar to GW1 with item differences being mostly cosmetic.
My big concern right now is that the static weapon-based skills may be too prohibitive of creative build design. Yes I have 2 weapon swap with 5 skills each, but unless those skills are sufficiently flexible and synergistic, I won't feel like I've truly designed a class. I don't want a system where all "axe warriors" are the same with a couple trivial flex skills.
Time will tell, but I have high hopes for this game. Anet has delivered on my style of MMO gameplay more than any other developer in recent history, so in my mind they're innocent until proven guilty.
Sorry, but it seems like you either didn't read at all, skipped over most of the details, or greatly misinterpreted most of their interviews that have been released. For one thing, it's not JUST 5 skills, it is 5 main skills, + others, like a self heal, and whatever else, i forget the exact details of the exact layout right now. On top of that, skills will switch with weapons, and there will be weapon specific skills, as well as environmental weapons with their own sets of skills (such as the example dthey used like a mage picking up a boulder, then shooting it into the air and raining down on the enemies like a meteor shower). And whil ethey have removed 2nd classes, they have also added in other factors that influence builds, and expanded the skill system overall. How is any of that "dumbing down" from the original GW? It is taking what was done in GW and expaning it a bit and adding even more variety and potential custom builds IMO. Who knows, there may be build swhich rely heavily on things like using their environment, while others never use it at all.
Personaly Story vs Missions... really? you actually need a dev to come out and specifically state that Personal Story is = to Missions? Because that's exactly what they are, only they have expanded it, added in more factors that influence your story, etc.
As they stated in the newest interview, their goal is to create the best MMO ever. While GW1 was a great game, it was not the best ever, thought it really did shine in some areas. Theyre taking the majority of what made GW great, adding in things that were lacking in GW1 to begin with, taking a few ideas that work from other games (which, btw, the description of their AH system sounds more like EVE than WoW), and then also adding in never before done concepts. To imply that what they're doing in GW2 to improve what they had in GW1 is "too much WoW' really makes it sound as if you've never even played WoW or GW before.
We don't have enough information to realy come to any conclusions on a lot of your points. We know next to nothing on levels, loot, and pvp so I'm not going get worked up about that.
On characters, yeah I'm a bit disappointed about no dual classes but I'll wait and see how they implement the new system.
The Auction House? Meh, not really worried about it. They are expanding the idea of an AH to a market which I like.
I do agree about heros/henchmen. I have always liked them but a lot of people don't. The henchmen and dual class system always defined guild wars for me so I am trying to damper my disappointment for not continuing that.
I loved missions as well but I think the event system and personal story will have some nice elements that will make up for the loss of missions.
Edit: I wouldn't jump to any conclusions so early. Wait until the beta comes out before really harping on any concerns.
I wanted to write something, though read this, and this is pretty much what I wanted to write so...... this^^.
Of what I read about GW2 everything will be a ton more dynamic than any other MMO ive ever played. Well in a different way than EVE online anyway ;p
personally i hope it has a ton of levels. i want a game with a ton of content and levels. ofc im playing GW atm and really enjoying it. so thats all it takes to please me for GW2 content and levels. :-) any1 know if their will be mounts?
I'm not one for big posts to discredit other people, but the OP had so many assumptions and claims that have no facts to back them up.
Characters
Half your skill bar will be determined by your weapons, but it seems that those skills will be still determined by you. Check the last interview to come out. So the breakdown of skills will be 5 weapon based, 1 heal, 1 elite, 3 misc., but all will be what you want them to be within those subclasses of skills. You make assumptions backed up by no facts.
Levels
You have no idea what you are talking about concerning levels. No one does. It hasn't been discussed other than it will be more than 20. That's it.
Why make a treadmill? They have no financial incentive to make you play at all. They make their money from selling the software. A boring grind like other games will kill them, due to their lack of subscription. Considering their will be variability in your personal story and dynamic events, playing a character from level 1 to finish will be a different experience than the first time around. Yet again - you are making things up based upon your faulty premise that it will be like WoW.
Loot
More speculation and again wrong on some facts. No loot grind. You'll get karma to spend. They explicity said in interviews that you wont' be doing the same dungeons over and over again to get items. Also, there will other ways to ge the stuff that you would get from the dungeons.
PvP
Here we go again. Wrong. You have no idea that this will be the case. Another example of an opinion based on zero facts to support a faulty premise - this game has become more WoW-like.
Missions
See personal story. They didn't say it explicity because it's obvious.
Heroes
It's a persistent world now. The way they are structuring game, people will be able to play together in events without grouping and all be rewarded equally for their efforts. Plus - the world is persistent now. If every player was just allowed one hero and you had 50 players in area, now you got 100 character models to render. It might have been less a gameplay decision and more of a performance issue.
Auction House
You can put up buy orders as well as sell orders. That will go a long ways towards negating the gouging effect where you only have a choice to buy whats on the market at the moment you are looking. With buy orders, you put up what you are looking to buy and the price range. I can't say for certain that this will prevent all of the problems assoicated with an auction house and I did like the way things were done in the first game, but it wasn't exactly a robust system with a lot of features.
I think you are looking for problems. If you really are interested in the game and hope it won't be WoW-like, go back through all the info that's out there. You may find that you missed some stuff or misinterpreted what you read, because I don't know how you came to the conclusions that you did by reading the same stuff I did.
If I remember correctly, they said no mounts.
Levels and content are not the same thing.
Levels != content, or anything besides a number really. Until we know what a level equates to in practical terms, it doesn't matter if the level cap is 10 or 10,000.
There are more general MMO feautures in GW2 then in GW (you call them WoW feautures, but thats shortsighted) there are also a lot og GW feautures and a lot of intuitive new features in this game.
All in all the developers are trying to create a whole new game, and not so much trying to create a GW2 as being a copy of GW1 with minor changes. To catch the attention of most players a game needs to feel fresh from the start and if that rewuires not to implement stuff that worked very good in GW, then so be it.
Sure the double classing will be missed. but other things like leveling, more loot based, combi of crafting and auction house, no more heroes, could actually work out good.
I personally hope that their Dungeons(instances) will be both Boss instanes like we know from WoW, but also mission based instances like we came to be love from the orriginal GW, we don't know anything yet tough about this part of the game.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
No mounts? What year is this?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Game doesn't have some things I want, so it is a WoW clone whaa whaa....
Nr1 most idiotic way to bash upcoming games here we go again; every game is going to be equated to WoW as long as both have traditional RPG elements (which has nothing to do with WoW).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Anyone notice GW2 moves closer to old wow(lots of lvs,loot grind)
And wow/cata moves closer to GW1(sitting in citys waiting for mish/dungeon)
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
They took gw elements and traditional mmmorpg (not wow) elements to create gw2, which is Guild Wars 2 not an Guild Wars 1 expansion so of course it differs alot from gw1.
From what ive read so far, Anet took WoW as major example to how NOT do things.
If they wanted to make a clone of the game they would make an expension or something...like they did in the past. Might there be a reason they actually call it Guild Wars 2 this time? Might it be because it is NOT guild wars 1, but actually Guild Wars 2? It is a whole different game. The features it has sound interesting and it might become a good game with again is a one of it kind just like GW1 was.
Stop bullshitting. The new system were you get 5 skills by weapon was in GW1 aswell,you just had more choice of them but you really didnt use that many different weapon skills anyway.In GW2 if you want knockdown and play a warrior you just go with a hammer and you get those skills,the weapons is meant for different things just like in GW1..its almost no different.
If you are making a significantly different game, you don't give it the same name - unless you are trying to trick players of the first game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
GW2 is keeping alot of features from GW1,they are slightled changed a bit and GW2 is adding new features to that and an persistent world,ArenaNet have listened to the players and the features that is going to be in GW2 is wished by GUILD WARS PLAYERS.
ArenaNet is tricking no one but instead listening to the players and give them what they want.
Making almost the same game with a slight different skin and call in a sequal is tricking players of the first game.
Like what happens with most sequals. Alot of the time they are even worse then the original.
If people like gw1 so much, rest assured, its not going anywhere after the launch of gw2
Where did you read lots of levels or loot grind?
There will be more loot thant Guild Wars. There will be more levels.
More levels than 20 might mean 40. It might mean 100 - we don't know. I doubt it will be extraordinarily high.
Information already released indiciates there will be no loot grind.
I guess they are moving closer to WoW because there's a persistent world? More races than just human?
Lame.
From a financial standpoint, they gain nothing by introducing things into their game that subscription based games do. No need to dangle the carrot always out of reach of the player to keep on playing. Their whole financial model is based on making people want to purchase more content like the campaigns and the one expansion for GW1.
Sorry dude, in the business world that's called "branding". They have a well known intellectual property and you build upon it's foundation. In the end they may be tricking people in some way (I doubt it, but I'll concede the point for sake of argument), but it doesn't seem like you are arguing out of good faith either. It's very likely someone calling themselves MMO_Doubter may be someone who tends to be contrary for it's own sake when discussing MMOs.
Well as others have hinted at and to summarize my own OP, Let us consider a scenario. Lets say you have one player that has never played any MMO except WoW. And then on the other side you have one player that has never played any MMO except guildwars. You take them both and let them have a go at guildwars 2. I am going to promise you now that the WoW player is immediately going to feel more comfortable and more at home than the guildwars player will.
And that to me is the problem. If you are building a sequel you should take what was good and great from the first game and build and expand upon it. You can say they are taking elements of traditional MMOs or RPGs or however you want to look at. But what made Guildwars great was that it wasnt traditional and it did its own thing. Bottomn line is developers are afraid to innovate any more. But thats a topic for another post.
Of course my OP is based on speculation. I have followed enough MMO releases to be able to read between the lines. When you are doing the PR dance everything you say or do not say has a very particular meaning and reason. Its cute that some peole are willing to take things at face value and visualize how awesome things can be in the way that they want you too; but I prefer to be objective. I am quite certain I have read all the interviews and am very much up to date on my information.
I will give you an example of my line of logic. Someone was quite happy to point out the environmental effects a few posts back. To give you my take on it, it sounds like a cheesy gimmick to me. It will either be A) Insignificant and not worth trying to take advantage of. Or
Just be all around not fun. It could marginalize damage when not taking advantage of it and will lock people in to particular builds and skills and could lead to things like Ranger says to Elementalist "Oooh you dont have fire wall. i want to shoot my arrows through it, you suck noob." etc. Edit: I just thought of the example I wanted to make. Think of the directional attacks from Aion. Move forward for offensive bonus, back for defense, etc. Sounded good in concept but in practice it was crap. It was clunky and not fun. Thats pretty much how I see environmental effects ending up. If I am a warrior and its a better option to pick up and throw a rock that an Elementalist conjured over using one of my sword abilities, thats a problem.
And sure many of my points are pure speculation but I can not believe that anyone could try to doubt the point on character builds. Especially after the devs have even came out and said they are intentionally limiting character builds to cut down on balance work. But as a refresher for those who seem to have forgot, you have 10 skills. A full five of them (thats half) are out of your control and determined by what you have equiped. Of the remaining 5 one is dedicated to a heal skill. That means you have completely free choice of 4 skills. And of course there are no 2nd classes and we do not know how man skills will actually be availble per class so this choice could be quite limited. Sounds a heck of a lot more limited than picking any 8 skills out of hundreds. Hmm actually it sounds a lot like a talent tree to me. I do believe in WoW you get to pick 4 maybe 5 active new skills depending on how you spend your talents. Interesting.