I can't wait for the game to be cancelled. This game never was going to succeed after trying to appeal to the FEW EQ1 fans, they never acknowledged how many DESPISED EQ1 and should have designed a game based on that instead. In other words a anti-raider game pro-casual.
I seen casual anti raider games in plenty, thanks. Last STO.
It is good that there are some games for old EQ players too, EQ did have a huge population once, in fact did Blizzard find Kaplan when Morhaime played EQ, they were in the same guild and became friends.
There are room for a few games like VG among all the casual games, at least 90% of all games aim for casual players.
Problem with Vanguard was that the idea behind it was sound but SIGIL didn't have the programmers to make the game. SOE probably just bought it up so no one else would fix it up and have it take players from EQ 1 & 2.
Vanguard can be saved but should it? It costs a lot of money and SOE can take all good features instead to Everquest next, to actually polish up and re release the game will cost a fortune that SOE could spend on next EQ game instead.
If enough players actually start play then SOE will start supporting it again but I doubt that will happen. I personally think it is pretty nice but I rather have EQ3 then a revamped VG.
My wife and I have started to play VG over the last month and to be honest it has been very enjoyable.
WHile the community is small for the most part they are very helpful, the game itself has been fun as the crafting and our overall experiance has been very enjoyable.
That being said it is also hard for us to press on knowing that EQ1 & 2 are still getting x-pacs and love to them, but the reality is that VG will never get any of this. So do we want to press on and keep lvling?
Well we are going to continue to pay our subs and enjoy the game for what it is. COuld it be better? sure. But then again so can any game out there. It is all in the players point of view f how the game should be. So we will continue to move forward and until either the game gets cancelled or we can simply go no futher (we are a pally & cleric) we will continue to enjoy ourselfs and plod along
Vanguard will never be any more popular, polished or populated than it is right now. No amount of "word of mouth" viral testimonials will ever convince those who have left for watever reason; to come back. If you look ack over the last few years about every 6 months we see posts about how the population is booming! and how the game is fixed! no bugs! The Vanguard diehards will say anything to get a months sub out of you for their dying game. Its sad really.
There have been so many excuses for why Vanguard failed. None of them matter any more. It is a failure and SOE knows it. Why should they throw away money to advertise a failed project. Everyone who has ever had an interest in the game has tried it and left or they have stuck with it thinking themselves noble or mature or hardcore in supporting a poor underdog of a game.
It's impossible to argue with almost every single post out there with regards to this topic, but I will say that where you stand depends largely on what you, as a gamer, hold dear. The only options left are to: 1. Support the game for the game's sake (or perhaps at least stand up for the type of game it could have been) or 2. Continue to keep away from it due to its incomplete foundation and unfortunate history in hopes that it will eventually die.
Personally, I look at it like a child. Daddy abandoned it because it didn't grow up fast enough and then Mommy died, leaving it in the care of a new, rich, snobby and reluctant foster parent. Its new home was more of a place for it merely to reside and it doesn't receive the same love and care as its foster parent's "real" children. Instead, it is left on what can barely be called life support. In the end though, it's not a child, it's a product, so people are undoubtedly within their rights to want to euthanize it.
That said, you've got many types of gamers and they all have varying opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with a seemingly near-dead game. One of my best friends stopped playing the game soon after launch because he wasn't going to play a game that wasn't finished or that didn't work in its entirety. Then you've got me and my better-half who continued to play long after its horrid launch and subsequent changes due to the sheer fact that for a game in-and-of itself, it was (for the most part) exactly what we had been wanting to play. If your dream MMORPG means . . .
1. Extremely difficult to near impossible quests 2. Slow, hard-earned leveling 3. Complex and involving . . . everything 4. Serious consequences and penalties 5. Truly learning and mastering your class 6. Open, seamless masterful environments 7. Reputation/Favor is it's own sphere of gameplay (Diplomacy) 8. Kill-on-sight (KoS) locations (at least there used to be a few left) 9. Numerous race and class combinations (and character customizations) 10. A quality combination of classical and original takes on fantasy MMORPG elements.
. . . then all of the flaws of the game may not matter to you. Then again that depends on what those flaws are, right? Flaws include (but are not limited to):
1. Lag (often due to intense graphical resource requirements) 2. Low server population (though that may change slightly since the servers combined) 3. Staggered level of extreme difficultly for nearly all areas and quests 4. Lack-luster animations for skills and abilities 5. Rare (but possible) falling through the world (yes, still) 6. The new n00b starting area is much more simple and rewarding than the main land 7. High auction prices with few buyers/bidders 8. Class solo-abilities range from do-able (Psion/Necro) to impossible (Warr/Rogue) 9. Class group-abilities range from necessary (Tank/Healer) to give-or-take (Ranger) 10. Lack of true, helpful and adequate game support
Outside of the game I have nothing positive to report; however, if you make your gaming decisions solely based on the game itself, then those few factors listed above may help in making up your mind. I still find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes one of the absolute best MMORPGs I've ever played, but I make my decisions largely based on the type of game it is . . . that's just me, though. I would still be playing today if I hadn't, at one point, run through nearly the entire game a few times. I loved it and couldn't get enough but after running through all of the raids up to level 50 a few dozen times, I felt that I had maxed myself out for the time being. I'm often very tempted to go back, and if there were a few updates here and there I wouldn't be posting here (and the article might have never been written). I may still go back for the 50-55 end-game raiding quests that have been added, you never know.
In any case, if the on-goings outside of the game contributes to your over-all contentment with a game or if you require pure refinement in all elements of a game, you'll likely want to steer clear of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. The game's wishy-washy past, ownership, support and occasional instability are certainly cause for concern but are by no means the ONLY factors by which a potential player could/should make their final decision. The game, in-and-of itself (flaws aside) can still be an amazing experience through-and-through for hardcore/veteran and new MMORPG gamers alike.
4. Lack-luster animations for skills and abilities
Generally, I probably agree. I disagree with these, though. I have found a nice mix of quests. Many are easy. That should be tempered with the knowldeg I've ionly been up to 20.
However, I the the animations positively rock. I could not disagree more with your assessment they are lack-luster. IMO, I've seen no better.
"Now, if we were to get a little cooperation from SOE,..."
That'll happen only after hell has frozen over. SOE has proven time and again they don't give a rats butt about what ideas the players of their games have. It's SOE's way or the highway.
All of your ideas are fine but in my view they must be prefaced with one action: A divorce of SOE from Vanguard. If SOE sells the game off to another companies and severs it's ties with the game, then Vanguard has a chance. Too many people don't trust SOE and don't play VG for that reason (me being one).
I remember asking a SOE rep (think he as VP of something or another, not sure) if he could guarantee me, on the initial VG forums at the time it was announced SOE would handle publishing, that SOE wouldn't take over the game and hit it with it's own NGE. He couldn't. But, the polar opposite happened: They taken a laissez faire approach to the game.
I have to totaly agree at this point your going down to one server. Do you really thing they have enough proffit from vangaurd at this point to pay a full dev staff?? Realy there probably not many folks working on it at all. This game has been on life support for the past year as it is anyway.
The only way to save it would be for soe to sell it and somebody who is willing to drop about 240 million into the game. I just dont see that happening. After all you had WB sind 180 mill into lotro and what did you get with that F2P with a store that sells items and unlocks to instances. I cant see anybody really wanting to do that for this game.
Would you even play vangaurd if it was the model that DDO uses?
If you're asking me, the answer is a resounding no. I've already expressed my opinion of Turbine's actions with DDO and LOTRO. Those are their games to do with as they will but it doesn't mean I have to like it or support it with my cash or presence. There are other games doing things the way I like subscription-wise and there are plenty of other hobbies outside of MMO gaming I can channel my money toward.
I don't need "a la carte" nor am I a fan of "monetizing" or "accessibility". I just want a plain ole monthly subscritpiton for access to a game world. People who want those aforementioned things are more than welcome to their own games that provide them.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
4. Lack-luster animations for skills and abilities
Generally, I probably agree. I disagree with these, though. I have found a nice mix of quests. Many are easy. That should be tempered with the knowldeg I've ionly been up to 20. However, I the the animations positively rock. I could not disagree more with your assessment they are lack-luster. IMO, I've seen no better.
I apologize for my #1 because I did not specify that not ALL quests are this way. Many are, but certainly not all. The quests you'd LOVE the rewards from are most likely near impossible though, lol. I'm speaking of quests like Haekemish . . . try that at level 11 or 12 in a full, well-rounded group. It's no walk-through. We once logged on our main characters at level 50 try to walk the rest of the guild through and we were nearly getting whacked, forget keeping the lowbies alive. There are areas in that game that are simply scaled to be WAY too difficult for the rewards the yield, IMO. Then again, I love that! Only the best should get the best gear, and so forth and so on.
As for #4 . . . to each their own, perhaps? I'm very happy to hear that you are pleased with the animations! I definitely don't find them disgusting or ridiculous, just not as . . . well, I don't know, good as I've seen in other MMO's. As you level up you'll notice that your level 15 "swipe" is the same as your level 45 "sunder" and so on and so forth. Perhaps that's just because I've played a lot but many of the skills/abilities cross-class animate as well, meaning that the ranger slash is the same as the warriors swipe, etc. I guess it's not too bad and if it doesn't bother you, then there's no point in worrying!
Thanks for your reply to my post. It's good to know that new players are still just around the corner. Now I'm every tempted to go back and run n00b help on the isle for a couple months again. Happy Hunting!
I loved the idea of this game and at one time considered giving it a go. Now this never happened and I've stuck with more popular MMOs such as EQ2, WoW, EVE, LOTRO... I am not going to pass judgement on the actually quality and merits of Vanguard but what I find astonishing is the lack of knowledge of how business actually works. A couple of points:
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
I think if you're looking for ulterior motives one more feasible theory is that SoE simple wanted to poach some of the Sigil developers. In the end SoE is a business just like Blizzard, just like CCP, and no matter what you might think about these companies, they're not doing stuff out of the goodness of their hearts. You can try to convince yourself all you want that CCP REALLY cares about their community, but the bottom line is, they do because it helps them make money. *I* personally have no problem with this, all companies need to recoup their initial investments, and also pull in enough cash to keep an MMO going with new content and features.
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
so true, so true.
I can't tell you how many meetings I've been to where some new strategy or some inital plan for an acquistion was laid out only to have nothing change after 6 months.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just let it die already...Sony doesn't care about it, have they ever!? More than likely they're developing Everquest III currently and the only reason they bought Vanguard was so that nobody else could have it and be a serious contender with their Everquest franchise.
Had someone else with the resources and care gotten their hands on Vanguard and given it the much needed attention it deserved it would have rivaled EQ & EQ II. In someways it already does and that scares Sony, why ya think it been put in whatever is worse than maintenance mode....heh
I agree with this pretty much, except the let it die comment. Besides for that I think it's right on target. Sony only picked this game up to get rid of the competition that it may provide, then just let it decay and erode into nothingness. They have basically no development team working on the game and it's been like that for years now. There are many things that COULD be done to get this game going again (hyped relaunch, F2P change, many more devs added to the team, etc), but none of that will ever happen for the exact same reason already mentioned; they DO NOT WANT THIS GAME TO SUCCEED. If there is any doubt of this, just look at how they handled the game since purchasing it, don't blindly say "they wouldn't buy a game if they didn't want it to succeed." Oh yes they would!
Gee so much positive responses to the post and Vanguard Im overwhelmed with emotion......not !!!
I love Vanguard and will continue to pay my subscription until the game go's under
Good idea's Justin ...I'll support any initiative to increase support for the game ,lets see what people suggest
No offense but its subscribers like you that keep telling publishers/developers that they can release anything and someone will pay for it. This game warranted a damn BOYCOTT of all SoE games, thats how horrid this game was at launch and yes you might be having fun and loving the game but sometimes you need to take a step back and let it go for the community.
You do realize that Vanguard was not a SoE game right? Microsoft dumped Sigil who developed it and SoE just published it. Does seem pointless that SoE saved VG, which probably would have never been released otherwise, only to neglect it afterward though.
You do realize when I purchased my handy box that was vanguard it says SoE. Yeah i know who developed it and SoE should of did what Microsoft did and Dumped this pile because they knew CEO of Sigil was a complete dufus when he made this game. He wasnt making head way on the game so they dumbed his ass. SoE being that they might of owed Brad i think it is was the owner of Sigil a favor for the sucess EQ1 had so they took a gamble on him. But Sigil was still BSing and SoE being SoE released the pile that was VG at launch. And since SoE were the ones behind the LAUNCH LAUNCH LAUNCH agenda its SoE's Fault just as much as its Sigil. Hence me saying Developers(sigil)/Publishers(SoE) think they can just release any pile of crap and people will still pay. We should of Boycotted SoE so they know the next time they decided to publish a damn pile they will know better. But they wont because VANGUARD IS STILL ALIVE. and Developers like Sigil know they can just make a game thats 60% done and still make a profit when they release it. Yeah they wont make any future profits but they made a little profit after launch.
As to SoE neglecting VG they were just being Capitolistic n nature and Earned there little bit of profits at launch heard all the negative things about it once it did launch and made the decesion to just not waste any more money on the game that they helped get released. They moved it into the catagory of If VG makes money we will spend it if the numbers just keep dying we will MILK IT FOR ALL ITS WORTH and let it die. Guess which one they choose VGBoi/Gurls???!!!
Do you even know the difference between a PUBLISHER AND A DEVELOPER? At launch SOE was a PUBLISHER. (aka they made the physical disc's for sale, ran game servers etc ). Sigil is the DEVELOPER (was in charge of game concepts , coding etc etc) .
Its widely know that SoE was the one who swooped in and gave Sigil and infusion of Capital since MS bailed on them as the original backer. Your notion that SoE ran the show when it comes to game development is laughable because if that was the case it would have simply became another WoW clone like eq2 became because why? That is where the money's at.
SoE's purchase of VG was a smart business move in more then one way. They were able to gain a license to EPIC's Unreal engine via back-door, they had code already on hand using Unreal in an MMORPG format ( it was a bastardized 2.5 build but still). Reason why this is important is because SoE has acknowledged that they will be using the Unreal engine in the future for several MMO titles they are developing. Another factor that people just don't see is that McQuaid was ALWAYS in good terms with Smed and SoE. SoE bailed out Brad and now he is working with them again. ( despite what you believe Brad is a great MMO developer, but a Poor manager. )
Also next time you post, please use some form of spell checker. trying to sound smart with numerous spelling error's makes you look silly.
No matter who made it, who likes whom, or which engine runs what, I am enjoying the game. It's fun, pretty and vast. It is not perfect and the key to really seeing as much content as possible is to get connected with active players (population is low - excited for server merger), but there is no "perfect" game out there. Some very harsh critisizm is from first glances a couple years ago and some of the current input is valid. It's hard to tell what is real and what is assumption from sony haters (I don't know a thing about the company - I play the game, not the company). All of that aside, I an many others are really enjoying ourselves in the game and I don't want to not like the game just because someone thinks that I shouldn't because they don't like sony.
In general, it's a great game for explorting, questing, adventuring, etc. The harvesting is not bad, people seem to like the crafting (I don't do it), and the diplomacy .. either you like it a lot or not at all. I like it.
Another factor that people just don't see is that McQuaid was ALWAYS in good terms with Smed and SoE. SoE bailed out Brad and now he is working with them again. ( despite what you believe Brad is a great MMO developer, but a Poor manager. )
Brad is not working with soe and has not since soe purchased sigil. He was mentioned as a "consultant" and nothing more. Brad even says on his blog has hasn't worked on a game and is looking to get back into the market now.
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
I think if you're looking for ulterior motives one more feasible theory is that SoE simple wanted to poach some of the Sigil developers. In the end SoE is a business just like Blizzard, just like CCP, and no matter what you might think about these companies, they're not doing stuff out of the goodness of their hearts. You can try to convince yourself all you want that CCP REALLY cares about their community, but the bottom line is, they do because it helps them make money. *I* personally have no problem with this, all companies need to recoup their initial investments, and also pull in enough cash to keep an MMO going with new content and features.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
You are spot on correct about corporate culture. Soe might not have been able to fix the corporate culture of Sigil, but you overlook the most important aspect of the situation. Soe never tried. They took a completely hands off approach and let sigil continue operating exactly as they had when they were being funded by microsoft. I don't even think they had an soe employee at the location. For fucks sake, Brad went missing for something like six months and soe didn't do anything about it?
Sigil wasted $30 million dollars of microsofts money and didn't even have a skeleton of a game to show for it after 4+ years. The vanguard project at that point was an unmitigated dissaster and needed serious help to turn the project around. That is why microsoft ditched it.
Soes solution was to hand a pile of money to sigil and let sigil march down the same path it had always been.
This is a classic example of throwing good money after bad. Intentional or not, there is just no way a company makes that type of investment and expects success to spontaniously happen.
Soe invested very little into vanguard and they litteraly store the game, the developers, the land and all the assest for a song when Sigil imploded. On top of that it cost them the loss of almost none of their EQ/EQ2 playerbase to another company and soe looks like heroes for "saving" vanguard.
I have long said the soe stood to make more from a failed vanguard than it did a successful one.
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
I think if you're looking for ulterior motives one more feasible theory is that SoE simple wanted to poach some of the Sigil developers. In the end SoE is a business just like Blizzard, just like CCP, and no matter what you might think about these companies, they're not doing stuff out of the goodness of their hearts. You can try to convince yourself all you want that CCP REALLY cares about their community, but the bottom line is, they do because it helps them make money. *I* personally have no problem with this, all companies need to recoup their initial investments, and also pull in enough cash to keep an MMO going with new content and features.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
You are spot on correct about corporate culture. Soe might not have been able to fix the corporate culture of Sigil, but you overlook the most important aspect of the situation. Soe never tried. They took a completely hands off approach and let sigil continue operating exactly as they had when they were being funded by microsoft. I don't even think they had an soe employee at the location. For fucks sake, Brad went missing for something like six months and soe didn't do anything about it?
Sigil wasted $30 million dollars of microsofts money and didn't even have a skeleton of a game to show for it after 4+ years. The vanguard project at that point was an unmitigated dissaster and needed serious help to turn the project around. That is why microsoft ditched it.
Soes solution was to hand a pile of money to sigil and let sigil march down the same path it had always been.
This is a classic example of throwing good money after bad. Intentional or not, there is just no way a company makes that type of investment and expects success to spontaniously happen.
Soe invested very little into vanguard and they litteraly store the game, the developers, the land and all the assest for a song when Sigil imploded. On top of that it cost them the loss of almost none of their EQ/EQ2 playerbase to another company and soe looks like heroes for "saving" vanguard.
I have long said the soe stood to make more from a failed vanguard than it did a successful one.
What it looked like to us outsiders might not be exactly what transpired. Perhaps SoE did try to change the way Sigil was run yet failed because of numerous reasons? In any event, we do not have all the information here so all we can do is speculate.
I don't buy the whole, SoE bought it just so they could sink it argument. All they would have to do was do nothing when Microsoft ditched them (which was in hindsight a smart decision by good old MSFT). Vanguard never gets released, and SoE doesn't have to pay anything for it. If Sigil and it's "assets" were in such a bad shape nobody else would've picked them up either. There is no doubt that the whole Vanguard project was mismanaged, on all sides most likely. I am sure Microsoft, Sigil and SoE is to blame for this fiasco but in the end I think it comes down to bad business decisions all around, bad project/business management, and a bit of favouritism (would SoE really have taken on Vanguard without a prior relationship?)
When almost every account from sigil employees and SOE says that SOE was hands off on the company, I think it is safe to believe them about it.
Soe didn't buy or invest in sigil to sink it. All they did was support it for a short while and let sigil continue what they were doing, which was failing. They didn't have to lift a single finger for that to happen and that is pretty much exactly what soe did, nothing. The cost to get into a contract with sigil was cheap, the benefits huge, the resources gained valuable and over the course of the last 3 years it easily payed for iteself. Looking at what soe gained in the deal would it be worth taking even the slightest change that another company funds vanguard to completion? Keep in mind Brad/Jeff are the guys that built soes flagship product that was funding almost all of their companies future projects.
Seeing how little soe did and how much they benefited from the failure of the game, I just don't see much compelling information that even suggests soe expected vanguard to be successful.
Regardless who is at fault this game proved that we shouldn't save it at launch. And the 1% of people who think Vanguard needs to be saved sorry the other 99% of us want it dead so you stop spamming the forums to save this pile. Let it go its ok no one will blame you.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
Your wrong....Vanguard players have no problem with the fact that it's a niche game. Most actually like that. They don't want Vanguard to go mainstream either. SOE did....for a time...and ruined most of the "nicheness" about he game. That pissed alot of players off and led to the big mass exodus of most players who stuck around after launch.
All Vanguard players want is assurance from SOE that they will continue to run the game, and they want a real dev team that's committed to the game and the community.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
they are in the process of merging down to 1 server. supposedly happening this month or next some time.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
Your wrong....Vanguard players have no problem with the fact that it's a niche game. Most actually like that. They don't want Vanguard to go mainstream either. SOE did....for a time...and ruined most of the "nicheness" about he game. That pissed alot of players off and led to the big mass exodus of most players who stuck around after launch.
All Vanguard players want is assurance from SOE that they will continue to run the game, and they want a real dev team that's committed to the game and the community.
They aren't asking for much really.
They are asking for alot for a game that has so little appeal to a larger audience. why should SOE invest in development of a game that has shown no growth/retention in the last few years?
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
Your wrong....Vanguard players have no problem with the fact that it's a niche game. Most actually like that. They don't want Vanguard to go mainstream either. SOE did....for a time...and ruined most of the "nicheness" about he game. That pissed alot of players off and led to the big mass exodus of most players who stuck around after launch.
All Vanguard players want is assurance from SOE that they will continue to run the game, and they want a real dev team that's committed to the game and the community.
They aren't asking for much really.
They are asking for alot for a game that has so little appeal to a larger audience. why should SOE invest in development of a game that has shown no growth/retention in the last few years?
That's a very valid point...one that I'm sure SOE agrees with...proven by their lack of develpmental support.
On he flip side, I think many, or some, would come back to the game if given those things I mentioned. Maybe not enough to save the game though.
Some might say that when SOE first purchased the game, they did put a dev team in place, but the game continued to falter, which led to the team getting ripped apart.
Yeh...kinda. When SOE took over the game the dev team got rid of the boat travel at docks, got rid of all faction, got rid of the armor/weapon spec system (can't remember the name), made everything BOE and BOP, and removed character customization for several months. They then added fast travel, silly racial mounts, and added the Trial of the Isle instead of improving the racial starting areas. All this was done to bring in "the masses". All it did was anger and allienate the small and dedicated fan base that was still there.
Now, most of those fans are long gone.
SOE should have catered to those that were still there. I believe Vanguard would have a larger player base today if they would have done that...instead they went fishing for the some of the WoW crowd. What a success that turned out to be.
You people have completely lost touch with reaiity. Microsoft funded Sigil because they split from SOE, then they stopped funding them and SOE bought them out. Go read a news report on it or something, but seriously, it's not so long ago that anyone should forget or alter the facts as to what happened.
Myth: Sigil alone was responsible for the shoddy development of Vanguard.
Reality: "Although SOE was responsible chiefly for marketing, publication, distribution, subscription services and maintenance of game servers, some of SOE's game designers and artists did participate directly in Vanguard's development."
Myth: SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with the early release of a broken and incomplete product.
Reality: "Had I had the financial resources, ability to place the product later, etc. I would have given us about 3 more months to get more polish in, more high level content in, and to distance ourselves from the WoW expansion." (Sigil CEO)
From reading this information, it seems to me that SOE worked directly on this busted piece of garbage, pushed it live before it was ready, and then bought Sigil out after the game fell flat on its face.
Comments
I seen casual anti raider games in plenty, thanks. Last STO.
It is good that there are some games for old EQ players too, EQ did have a huge population once, in fact did Blizzard find Kaplan when Morhaime played EQ, they were in the same guild and became friends.
There are room for a few games like VG among all the casual games, at least 90% of all games aim for casual players.
Problem with Vanguard was that the idea behind it was sound but SIGIL didn't have the programmers to make the game. SOE probably just bought it up so no one else would fix it up and have it take players from EQ 1 & 2.
Vanguard can be saved but should it? It costs a lot of money and SOE can take all good features instead to Everquest next, to actually polish up and re release the game will cost a fortune that SOE could spend on next EQ game instead.
If enough players actually start play then SOE will start supporting it again but I doubt that will happen. I personally think it is pretty nice but I rather have EQ3 then a revamped VG.
My wife and I have started to play VG over the last month and to be honest it has been very enjoyable.
WHile the community is small for the most part they are very helpful, the game itself has been fun as the crafting and our overall experiance has been very enjoyable.
That being said it is also hard for us to press on knowing that EQ1 & 2 are still getting x-pacs and love to them, but the reality is that VG will never get any of this. So do we want to press on and keep lvling?
Well we are going to continue to pay our subs and enjoy the game for what it is. COuld it be better? sure. But then again so can any game out there. It is all in the players point of view f how the game should be. So we will continue to move forward and until either the game gets cancelled or we can simply go no futher (we are a pally & cleric) we will continue to enjoy ourselfs and plod along
Vanguard will never be any more popular, polished or populated than it is right now. No amount of "word of mouth" viral testimonials will ever convince those who have left for watever reason; to come back. If you look ack over the last few years about every 6 months we see posts about how the population is booming! and how the game is fixed! no bugs! The Vanguard diehards will say anything to get a months sub out of you for their dying game. Its sad really.
There have been so many excuses for why Vanguard failed. None of them matter any more. It is a failure and SOE knows it. Why should they throw away money to advertise a failed project. Everyone who has ever had an interest in the game has tried it and left or they have stuck with it thinking themselves noble or mature or hardcore in supporting a poor underdog of a game.
It's impossible to argue with almost every single post out there with regards to this topic, but I will say that where you stand depends largely on what you, as a gamer, hold dear. The only options left are to: 1. Support the game for the game's sake (or perhaps at least stand up for the type of game it could have been) or 2. Continue to keep away from it due to its incomplete foundation and unfortunate history in hopes that it will eventually die.
Personally, I look at it like a child. Daddy abandoned it because it didn't grow up fast enough and then Mommy died, leaving it in the care of a new, rich, snobby and reluctant foster parent. Its new home was more of a place for it merely to reside and it doesn't receive the same love and care as its foster parent's "real" children. Instead, it is left on what can barely be called life support. In the end though, it's not a child, it's a product, so people are undoubtedly within their rights to want to euthanize it.
That said, you've got many types of gamers and they all have varying opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with a seemingly near-dead game. One of my best friends stopped playing the game soon after launch because he wasn't going to play a game that wasn't finished or that didn't work in its entirety. Then you've got me and my better-half who continued to play long after its horrid launch and subsequent changes due to the sheer fact that for a game in-and-of itself, it was (for the most part) exactly what we had been wanting to play. If your dream MMORPG means . . .
1. Extremely difficult to near impossible quests
2. Slow, hard-earned leveling
3. Complex and involving . . . everything
4. Serious consequences and penalties
5. Truly learning and mastering your class
6. Open, seamless masterful environments
7. Reputation/Favor is it's own sphere of gameplay (Diplomacy)
8. Kill-on-sight (KoS) locations (at least there used to be a few left)
9. Numerous race and class combinations (and character customizations)
10. A quality combination of classical and original takes on fantasy MMORPG elements.
. . . then all of the flaws of the game may not matter to you. Then again that depends on what those flaws are, right? Flaws include (but are not limited to):
1. Lag (often due to intense graphical resource requirements)
2. Low server population (though that may change slightly since the servers combined)
3. Staggered level of extreme difficultly for nearly all areas and quests
4. Lack-luster animations for skills and abilities
5. Rare (but possible) falling through the world (yes, still)
6. The new n00b starting area is much more simple and rewarding than the main land
7. High auction prices with few buyers/bidders
8. Class solo-abilities range from do-able (Psion/Necro) to impossible (Warr/Rogue)
9. Class group-abilities range from necessary (Tank/Healer) to give-or-take (Ranger)
10. Lack of true, helpful and adequate game support
Outside of the game I have nothing positive to report; however, if you make your gaming decisions solely based on the game itself, then those few factors listed above may help in making up your mind. I still find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes one of the absolute best MMORPGs I've ever played, but I make my decisions largely based on the type of game it is . . . that's just me, though. I would still be playing today if I hadn't, at one point, run through nearly the entire game a few times. I loved it and couldn't get enough but after running through all of the raids up to level 50 a few dozen times, I felt that I had maxed myself out for the time being. I'm often very tempted to go back, and if there were a few updates here and there I wouldn't be posting here (and the article might have never been written). I may still go back for the 50-55 end-game raiding quests that have been added, you never know.
In any case, if the on-goings outside of the game contributes to your over-all contentment with a game or if you require pure refinement in all elements of a game, you'll likely want to steer clear of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. The game's wishy-washy past, ownership, support and occasional instability are certainly cause for concern but are by no means the ONLY factors by which a potential player could/should make their final decision. The game, in-and-of itself (flaws aside) can still be an amazing experience through-and-through for hardcore/veteran and new MMORPG gamers alike.
Generally, I probably agree. I disagree with these, though. I have found a nice mix of quests. Many are easy. That should be tempered with the knowldeg I've ionly been up to 20.
However, I the the animations positively rock. I could not disagree more with your assessment they are lack-luster. IMO, I've seen no better.
If you're asking me, the answer is a resounding no. I've already expressed my opinion of Turbine's actions with DDO and LOTRO. Those are their games to do with as they will but it doesn't mean I have to like it or support it with my cash or presence. There are other games doing things the way I like subscription-wise and there are plenty of other hobbies outside of MMO gaming I can channel my money toward.
I don't need "a la carte" nor am I a fan of "monetizing" or "accessibility". I just want a plain ole monthly subscritpiton for access to a game world. People who want those aforementioned things are more than welcome to their own games that provide them.
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I apologize for my #1 because I did not specify that not ALL quests are this way. Many are, but certainly not all. The quests you'd LOVE the rewards from are most likely near impossible though, lol. I'm speaking of quests like Haekemish . . . try that at level 11 or 12 in a full, well-rounded group. It's no walk-through. We once logged on our main characters at level 50 try to walk the rest of the guild through and we were nearly getting whacked, forget keeping the lowbies alive. There are areas in that game that are simply scaled to be WAY too difficult for the rewards the yield, IMO. Then again, I love that! Only the best should get the best gear, and so forth and so on.
As for #4 . . . to each their own, perhaps? I'm very happy to hear that you are pleased with the animations! I definitely don't find them disgusting or ridiculous, just not as . . . well, I don't know, good as I've seen in other MMO's. As you level up you'll notice that your level 15 "swipe" is the same as your level 45 "sunder" and so on and so forth. Perhaps that's just because I've played a lot but many of the skills/abilities cross-class animate as well, meaning that the ranger slash is the same as the warriors swipe, etc. I guess it's not too bad and if it doesn't bother you, then there's no point in worrying!
Thanks for your reply to my post. It's good to know that new players are still just around the corner. Now I'm every tempted to go back and run n00b help on the isle for a couple months again. Happy Hunting!
I loved the idea of this game and at one time considered giving it a go. Now this never happened and I've stuck with more popular MMOs such as EQ2, WoW, EVE, LOTRO... I am not going to pass judgement on the actually quality and merits of Vanguard but what I find astonishing is the lack of knowledge of how business actually works. A couple of points:
People who use "SoE could've just fixed Sigil" as an argument for SoE actually sabotaged it are incorrectly assuming that "fixing" Sigil is a trivial task. In reality it is far far from it. Corporate culture is notoriously hard to fix or alter, and while it isn't impossible, you'd be assuming that SoE is actually good at it which probably isn't true.
I think if you're looking for ulterior motives one more feasible theory is that SoE simple wanted to poach some of the Sigil developers. In the end SoE is a business just like Blizzard, just like CCP, and no matter what you might think about these companies, they're not doing stuff out of the goodness of their hearts. You can try to convince yourself all you want that CCP REALLY cares about their community, but the bottom line is, they do because it helps them make money. *I* personally have no problem with this, all companies need to recoup their initial investments, and also pull in enough cash to keep an MMO going with new content and features.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
One of the best PvE MMORPGs on market, if not the best. Had alot of fun while playing it and I hope it will live another several years
so true, so true.
I can't tell you how many meetings I've been to where some new strategy or some inital plan for an acquistion was laid out only to have nothing change after 6 months.
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I agree with this pretty much, except the let it die comment. Besides for that I think it's right on target. Sony only picked this game up to get rid of the competition that it may provide, then just let it decay and erode into nothingness. They have basically no development team working on the game and it's been like that for years now. There are many things that COULD be done to get this game going again (hyped relaunch, F2P change, many more devs added to the team, etc), but none of that will ever happen for the exact same reason already mentioned; they DO NOT WANT THIS GAME TO SUCCEED. If there is any doubt of this, just look at how they handled the game since purchasing it, don't blindly say "they wouldn't buy a game if they didn't want it to succeed." Oh yes they would!
Do you even know the difference between a PUBLISHER AND A DEVELOPER? At launch SOE was a PUBLISHER. (aka they made the physical disc's for sale, ran game servers etc ). Sigil is the DEVELOPER (was in charge of game concepts , coding etc etc) .
Its widely know that SoE was the one who swooped in and gave Sigil and infusion of Capital since MS bailed on them as the original backer. Your notion that SoE ran the show when it comes to game development is laughable because if that was the case it would have simply became another WoW clone like eq2 became because why? That is where the money's at.
SoE's purchase of VG was a smart business move in more then one way. They were able to gain a license to EPIC's Unreal engine via back-door, they had code already on hand using Unreal in an MMORPG format ( it was a bastardized 2.5 build but still). Reason why this is important is because SoE has acknowledged that they will be using the Unreal engine in the future for several MMO titles they are developing. Another factor that people just don't see is that McQuaid was ALWAYS in good terms with Smed and SoE. SoE bailed out Brad and now he is working with them again. ( despite what you believe Brad is a great MMO developer, but a Poor manager. )
Also next time you post, please use some form of spell checker. trying to sound smart with numerous spelling error's makes you look silly.
No matter who made it, who likes whom, or which engine runs what, I am enjoying the game. It's fun, pretty and vast. It is not perfect and the key to really seeing as much content as possible is to get connected with active players (population is low - excited for server merger), but there is no "perfect" game out there. Some very harsh critisizm is from first glances a couple years ago and some of the current input is valid. It's hard to tell what is real and what is assumption from sony haters (I don't know a thing about the company - I play the game, not the company). All of that aside, I an many others are really enjoying ourselves in the game and I don't want to not like the game just because someone thinks that I shouldn't because they don't like sony.
In general, it's a great game for explorting, questing, adventuring, etc. The harvesting is not bad, people seem to like the crafting (I don't do it), and the diplomacy .. either you like it a lot or not at all. I like it.
Brad is not working with soe and has not since soe purchased sigil. He was mentioned as a "consultant" and nothing more. Brad even says on his blog has hasn't worked on a game and is looking to get back into the market now.
You are spot on correct about corporate culture. Soe might not have been able to fix the corporate culture of Sigil, but you overlook the most important aspect of the situation. Soe never tried. They took a completely hands off approach and let sigil continue operating exactly as they had when they were being funded by microsoft. I don't even think they had an soe employee at the location. For fucks sake, Brad went missing for something like six months and soe didn't do anything about it?
Sigil wasted $30 million dollars of microsofts money and didn't even have a skeleton of a game to show for it after 4+ years. The vanguard project at that point was an unmitigated dissaster and needed serious help to turn the project around. That is why microsoft ditched it.
Soes solution was to hand a pile of money to sigil and let sigil march down the same path it had always been.
This is a classic example of throwing good money after bad. Intentional or not, there is just no way a company makes that type of investment and expects success to spontaniously happen.
Soe invested very little into vanguard and they litteraly store the game, the developers, the land and all the assest for a song when Sigil imploded. On top of that it cost them the loss of almost none of their EQ/EQ2 playerbase to another company and soe looks like heroes for "saving" vanguard.
I have long said the soe stood to make more from a failed vanguard than it did a successful one.
What it looked like to us outsiders might not be exactly what transpired. Perhaps SoE did try to change the way Sigil was run yet failed because of numerous reasons? In any event, we do not have all the information here so all we can do is speculate.
I don't buy the whole, SoE bought it just so they could sink it argument. All they would have to do was do nothing when Microsoft ditched them (which was in hindsight a smart decision by good old MSFT). Vanguard never gets released, and SoE doesn't have to pay anything for it. If Sigil and it's "assets" were in such a bad shape nobody else would've picked them up either. There is no doubt that the whole Vanguard project was mismanaged, on all sides most likely. I am sure Microsoft, Sigil and SoE is to blame for this fiasco but in the end I think it comes down to bad business decisions all around, bad project/business management, and a bit of favouritism (would SoE really have taken on Vanguard without a prior relationship?)
When almost every account from sigil employees and SOE says that SOE was hands off on the company, I think it is safe to believe them about it.
Soe didn't buy or invest in sigil to sink it. All they did was support it for a short while and let sigil continue what they were doing, which was failing. They didn't have to lift a single finger for that to happen and that is pretty much exactly what soe did, nothing. The cost to get into a contract with sigil was cheap, the benefits huge, the resources gained valuable and over the course of the last 3 years it easily payed for iteself. Looking at what soe gained in the deal would it be worth taking even the slightest change that another company funds vanguard to completion? Keep in mind Brad/Jeff are the guys that built soes flagship product that was funding almost all of their companies future projects.
Seeing how little soe did and how much they benefited from the failure of the game, I just don't see much compelling information that even suggests soe expected vanguard to be successful.
Regardless who is at fault this game proved that we shouldn't save it at launch. And the 1% of people who think Vanguard needs to be saved sorry the other 99% of us want it dead so you stop spamming the forums to save this pile. Let it go its ok no one will blame you.
If people enjoy it let them enjoy it.
The part thats bothering me is how Vanguard players cant accept that their game is a niche one, they want mass appeal but the game will NEVER go mainstream, it had its chance and crashed hard. Its a shame, it looks nice but they would be better served petitioning for a full on server merge to 1 or 2 servers so the game can feel full and maybe grow a bit from there.
Your wrong....Vanguard players have no problem with the fact that it's a niche game. Most actually like that. They don't want Vanguard to go mainstream either. SOE did....for a time...and ruined most of the "nicheness" about he game. That pissed alot of players off and led to the big mass exodus of most players who stuck around after launch.
All Vanguard players want is assurance from SOE that they will continue to run the game, and they want a real dev team that's committed to the game and the community.
They aren't asking for much really.
they are in the process of merging down to 1 server. supposedly happening this month or next some time.
They are asking for alot for a game that has so little appeal to a larger audience. why should SOE invest in development of a game that has shown no growth/retention in the last few years?
we cant save it. its a 3 year old dead horse. that had its beating from the community and soe.
nothing to save and its a shame- cuse it is one of the better mmo´s.
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That's a very valid point...one that I'm sure SOE agrees with...proven by their lack of develpmental support.
On he flip side, I think many, or some, would come back to the game if given those things I mentioned. Maybe not enough to save the game though.
Some might say that when SOE first purchased the game, they did put a dev team in place, but the game continued to falter, which led to the team getting ripped apart.
Yeh...kinda. When SOE took over the game the dev team got rid of the boat travel at docks, got rid of all faction, got rid of the armor/weapon spec system (can't remember the name), made everything BOE and BOP, and removed character customization for several months. They then added fast travel, silly racial mounts, and added the Trial of the Isle instead of improving the racial starting areas. All this was done to bring in "the masses". All it did was anger and allienate the small and dedicated fan base that was still there.
Now, most of those fans are long gone.
SOE should have catered to those that were still there. I believe Vanguard would have a larger player base today if they would have done that...instead they went fishing for the some of the WoW crowd. What a success that turned out to be.
According to the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes :
Myth: Sigil alone was responsible for the shoddy development of Vanguard.
Reality: "Although SOE was responsible chiefly for marketing, publication, distribution, subscription services and maintenance of game servers, some of SOE's game designers and artists did participate directly in Vanguard's development."
Myth: SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with the early release of a broken and incomplete product.
Reality: "Had I had the financial resources, ability to place the product later, etc. I would have given us about 3 more months to get more polish in, more high level content in, and to distance ourselves from the WoW expansion." (Sigil CEO)
From reading this information, it seems to me that SOE worked directly on this busted piece of garbage, pushed it live before it was ready, and then bought Sigil out after the game fell flat on its face.