Nice thoughts but I would be shocked if SOE ever did anything that would be considered "risky". SOE doesn't tend to inovate they simply try to hold on to as much market share as they can. That is why they have bought up so many mmos and left several of them to whither on the vine just to thin the market.
Nice thoughts but I would be shocked if SOE ever did anything that would be considered "risky". SOE doesn't tend to inovate they simply try to hold on to as much market share as they can. That is why they have bought up so many mmos and left several of them to whither on the vine just to thin the market.
CU, NGE
Both of those were MASSIVE changes to the game and VERY risky.
Both CU and NGE killed the population in a huge degree.
Nice thoughts but I would be shocked if SOE ever did anything that would be considered "risky". SOE doesn't tend to inovate they simply try to hold on to as much market share as they can. That is why they have bought up so many mmos and left several of them to whither on the vine just to thin the market.
CU, NGE
Both of those were MASSIVE changes to the game and VERY risky.
Both CU and NGE killed the population in a huge degree.
Those risks did NOT pay off.
Now this is a plain out lie perpetuated by alleged vets who forgot how bad the game really was. What killed SWG was the hologrind which started before the CU.
What was great about FOTM classes, several broken classes, everyone in the same armor, pointless pvp, no pve beyond getting buffs by docs to goto X planet to grind all day. The risk that did not pay off was that the game was built on a horrible foundation that only looks good on paper to have 32 classes that you can mix and match. However that system is far too complex for anyone to balance.
SWG has always been flawed. Some people just don't realize that what they enjoyed was not the game itself but certain experiences and memories acquired during that time of playing the game. I had good memories of exploring with my friends and roleplaying with strangers at cantinas or at the hospital. However that roleplaying was all me and not fostered by SWG in any of its forms. You could still make new memories now in NGE if you weren't so bent on holding this grudge of how many years?
Nice thoughts but I would be shocked if SOE ever did anything that would be considered "risky". SOE doesn't tend to inovate they simply try to hold on to as much market share as they can. That is why they have bought up so many mmos and left several of them to whither on the vine just to thin the market.
The funny thing is, such a proposal has far less risk than attempting to design a new sandbox style MMO from scratch without doing such a test. Spending 5 years on an MMO design only to find that it's potentially flawed.
But I do take your point. SOE aren't really "pioneers", SOE's portfolio is more of an MMO graveyard really.
I have a hardtime accepting f2p anything. I know im hard headed and too set in my ways but with the exception of GW and DDO I have never seen a f2p game worth playing more than a month.
I have a hardtime accepting f2p anything. I know im hard headed and too set in my ways but with the exception of GW and DDO I have never seen a f2p game worth playing more than a month.
I fear swg would be ruined with that model.
People seem to be focusing in this thread on an F2P model with a cash shop for a relaunched Classic Server purely on the grounds of getting SWG Pre-CU back up and running. That's not the point.
The point is to use a sandbox design model that was previously designed and proven to function (to a degree) as a basis to create a "test server" which can then be used to test elements which would ultimately be implemented in a new MMO. I mentioned "F2P" in my OP purely on the grounds that at the moment a lot of "older" games seem to be moving into the "no subscription" area. F2P doesn't automatically mean "Cash Shop" or "microtransactions". It just means "Free to play", insinuating no subscription fee. Just as Anarchy Online is free to play.
Now where such this suggestion differs to the running of DDO etc, is that this would be viewed purely as a temporary "test server" to gauge public reaction. A massive "online survey" if you want to use that phrase. No cash shop. No microtransactions. No huge updates. No Expansions. No Customer Service (beyond forums). No Official Support (beyond forums). Just the server as it was to be used on a trial basis, the goal of which is to gauge public reaction.
It should be viewed as a Test Server, and a temporary one at that. Nothing else.
SOE have that opportunity (if the code still exists, which in all likelihood it does somewhere). Whether or not they'd want to do it to pioneer a new sandbox MMO is certainly a different matter entirely, but certainly one that cannot be ignored completely.
I know im going to get heat for this but if SOE released a Pre-cu server it would fail.
Unless they added all the pve content they released after the CU.
SWG originally just didnt have enough pve to keep todays playerbase interested.
Flame me if you want but we have a game thats similar (Ryzom) and its failing miserably.
Which is all the more reason to use an existing game model, as a platform to try out new elements which could be used as part of the SWG Pre-CU style sandbox design. Rather than spending 5 years developing yet another "traditional" sandbox design that may or may not fail.
The point is that sometimes its necessary to spend a little money to save a lot more time and resources in the long run.
It appears that many companies are finding it harder and harder to take risks these days, they don't want to spend 5 years or so on a potentially flawed product design. So they need a good incentive to break away from the "norm". But how can they be given such an incentive unless someone shows them? But no one can show them unless they spend 5 years developing a potentially failed product. Which no one will do because its too risky.
Such is the never ending circle that the industry is in. Fear of the unknown and high development costs are forcing companies to stick with what they know.
SOE are in a particularly unique position to potentially break that cycle by "recycling" an old design model and using it as a testbed to try out elements for a new design. Of course, this all hangs on the pretense that SOE would WANT to make a new Sandbox / Hybrid design MMO. This is all hyperthetical of course.
I know im going to get heat for this but if SOE released a Pre-cu server it would fail.
Unless they added all the pve content they released after the CU.
SWG originally just didnt have enough pve to keep todays playerbase interested.
Flame me if you want but we have a game thats similar (Ryzom) and its failing miserably.
Which is all the more reason to use an existing game model, as a platform to try out new elements which could be used as part of the SWG Pre-CU style sandbox design. Rather than spending 5 years developing yet another "traditional" sandbox design that may or may not fail.
The point is that sometimes its necessary to spend a little money to save a lot more time and resources in the long run.
It appears that many companies are finding it harder and harder to take risks these days, they don't want to spend 5 years or so on a potentially flawed product design. So they need a good incentive to break away from the "norm". But how can they be given such an incentive unless someone shows them? But no one can show them unless they spend 5 years developing a potentially failed product. Which no one will do because its too risky.
Such is the never ending circle that we're in. SOE are in a particularly unique position to potentially break that cycle.
Too bad SOE no longer have the original code.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
Yeah, like I said before now, its quite possible that they've ditched the code. But its also possible that they still have it locked away somewhere, even for reference purposes. SOE possibly just keep telling people that they haven't got the code anymore, to stop people from putting pressue on them to implement it.
Oh well, I guess we will have to wait for an MMO developer to do it the normal way and gamble it all by developing a hybrid model from scratch. Which is even MORE unlikely than SOE launching a Classic Server as a test bed
And this is the price we pay for playing games in the one genre where true innovation is looked at as a high risk venture not worth doing.
In other genres games that just copy one another get fail ratings from critics and die, they are heavily criticized (as an example check out reviews of darksiders and dante's inferno lol).
this mmo genre is like video game hell, what we put ourselves through to recapture the good old days (that will never come) is just stupid and crazy.
Rockgod is totally right. The glory days are gone. Reason being is we were younger and more easily entertained. I've been playing MMO's for 10 years now. I seriously doubt I will relive the fun I had in them when I was younger.
OK, I know this is "hypothetical", but it simply wont happen.
Look at Planetside, look at Matrix...are either of those F2P now? SWG isn't SoE's 1st failure, it's one of many and they're doing now exactly what they did before those 2 games closed. Skeleton staff, minimal tweaks, they're simply winding up the closure. SWG will NEVER be F2P under SoE. The idea that they would want your feedback when the game is free, yet they wouldn't listen to it when you PAID for the game, is just kinda silly.
OK, I know this is "hypothetical", but it simply wont happen.
Look at Planetside, look at Matrix...are either of those F2P now? SWG isn't SoE's 1st failure, it's one of many and they're doing now exactly what they did before those 2 games closed. Skeleton staff, minimal tweaks, they're simply winding up the closure. SWG will NEVER be F2P under SoE. The idea that they would want your feedback when the game is free, yet they wouldn't listen to it when you PAID for the game, is just kinda silly.
True...
SOE is killing SWG and Vanguard slowly but surely...It is a shame though. I understand what you're saying about the Free vs. Paying deal, but one has to wonder what the real risk would be for SOE to come up with a F2P version of SWG and Vanguard?...I mean...If the intention is to skeleton staff both until they close em' up, what do they really have to lose? Cash Shops with a bunch of crazy Vehicles, Structures and such (including all that stuff you can get in the Card Game) could be gold mines...You never know...Let the Folks who still Pay their Subs have free reign and most of them will keep paying...Heck if they have not quit by now good God...lol...I think they're gonna stay till the bitter end...
I'm not saying they'll do it cause I know they won't...Just saying at this point it's not like it could hurt any worse...
SOE is killing SWG and Vanguard slowly but surely...It is a shame though. I understand what you're saying about the Free vs. Paying deal, but one has to wonder what the real risk would be for SOE to come up with a F2P version of SWG and Vanguard?...I mean...If the intention is to skeleton staff both until they close em' up, what do they really have to lose? Cash Shops with a bunch of crazy Vehicles, Structures and such (including all that stuff you can get in the Card Game) could be gold mines...You never know...Let the Folks who still Pay their Subs have free reign and most of them will keep paying...Heck if they have not quit by now good God...lol...I think they're gonna stay till the bitter end...
I'm not saying they'll do it cause I know they won't...Just saying at this point it's not like it could hurt any worse...
Well this is actually the ONLY way I could ever see SWG going F2P. TCG loot (better than Cash Shop), which is cheap and easy to create, would be the only way to justify making the game F2P. In fact, I think it's foolish for them to not open the game up to be F2P the last few months, hoping to capitalize one last time on the TCG.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
As I recall, what one of the Smed Clones said,was something along the lines of "It is not technically feasible...blah blah blah.. to do." They never actually said they didn't have the code, and any of us in corporate America know that intellectual property, in this case game code, is backed up multiple times, by version, and is NEVER lost... for the simple fact that the time involved in making it is worth/costs money.
Also, in the infamous "Om-nom-nom" blog post from Rubenfeld, he states quite difinitively that SOE was maintaining the pre-NGE code on servers until 6 weeks after the NGE, with the anticipation that they might be rolled back. So, they have the code.
While rolling the live servers back may very well be "impossible" if you believe them (which might actually be true), loading up a fresh server with Pre-CU/Pre-NGE is something entirely different, and is most certainly possible and probably not that difficult.
Edit: Rubenfeld said that in the first, unedited version of the blog entry; in the later edited ones, I am not sure. The links to the original should be floating around here, I saw it in a thread not long ago.
I think it is a good idea for customer and company, because they already paid for that developement cost, so why not use it. If no one joins, then they can cancel it and move on. Either way, they are looking at a game that is quickly losing financial viability, and they should be looking to spruce this game up in other ways than making the station pass 2% more appealing.
First few posts show how bad the OP thought this through from a business perspective. The new server would use the F2P payment model. But when someone assumes this means there will be a cash shop, the OP says, no. So his 'F2P payment model' isnt a payment model at all. It just costs SOE money.
Money that SOE clearly is not willing to spend on current SWG implementation, let alone on some new server(s) with a different SWG implementation.
But then its suddenly a testenvironment to see how the public reacts.
Well, for nostalgic reasons alone (and its free), many players will start playing. Of course you have no clue for how long, because as it is with nostalgic thoughts. The memory is never exactly like the real thing. Just some people never learn that.
Anyway, it all sound nice, but he doesnt tell us how it will affect the current implementation of SWG. What would current players (who pay a montly sub, or several) do when they learn about this? I have an idea what the OP will answer though This is where he confuses his wishes with the reality of business.
EDIT: Not to mention that the way the OP talks about reimplementing preCU code, is like if you install some old game you have lying somewhere.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
As I recall, what one of the Smed Clones said,was something along the lines of "It is not technically feasible...blah blah blah.. to do." They never actually said they didn't have the code, and any of us in corporate America know that intellectual property, in this case game code, is backed up multiple times, by version, and is NEVER lost... for the simple fact that the time involved in making it is worth/costs money.
You're right Burnvet, there's no way the code has been 'lost or deleted'. As anyone in software development can attest, all versions of software are constantly backed up and stored offline. The only foreseeable way SOe doesn't have the code is if they had to hand it over to LA for some contractual reason (which is plausible).
As far as releasing a Pre-CU server as F2P, I personally can't see that working unless the supported NGE version goes F2P as well.
Like I've said a few times in the past, SOE should simply launch a Pre-CU server along side the current NGE'd version under the current subscription model and really see what's what. As others have stated, they'll in all likelyhood get a substantial increase in subs at least for a short time (minimum), which will more than make it worth their while, and those who preach that the current version is better will finally be able to tell us who don't agree with them "I told you so" . Most importantly for SOE in the long term, and cannot be understated, is they can finally claim to have 'listened' to those screaming for a Pre-CU server, thus perhaps patching an incredibly tarnished reputation.
First few posts show how bad the OP thought this through from a business perspective. The new server would use the F2P payment model. But when someone assumes this means there will be a cash shop, the OP says, no. So his 'F2P payment model' isnt a payment model at all. It just costs SOE money.
Money that SOE clearly is not willing to spend on current SWG implementation, let alone on some new server(s) with a different SWG implementation.
But then its suddenly a testenvironment to see how the public reacts.
Well, for nostalgic reasons alone (and its free), many players will start playing. Of course you have no clue for how long, because as it is with nostalgic thoughts. The memory is never exactly like the real thing. Just some people never learn that.
Anyway, it all sound nice, but he doesnt tell us how it will affect the current implementation of SWG. What would current players (who pay a montly sub, or several) do when they learn about this? I have an idea what the OP will answer though This is where he confuses his wishes with the reality of business.
EDIT: Not to mention that the way the OP talks about reimplementing preCU code, is like if you install some old game you have lying somewhere.
I'm only responding to this because of the gross inaccurate assumptions that you made.
1) The intention of the OP (me)
The OP was intended to be a proposal for discussion regarding an "experiment" that uses a single server cluster (a shard if you want to call it that) running a version of "classic SWG" (Pre NGE / CU). The intention of the experiment would be to see:
How todays MMO customerbase would REALLY react to the re-introduction of a "classic SWG" sandbox game, as opposed to what people SAY they would like or guess how players would react.
If sandboxes are "the way forward". A certain many hold onto the notion that it is, and often cite SWG as an example of a relatively good one. So it would certainly be interesting to see just HOW much interested people would be in that design again.
If this server proved once again to be relatively popular (under the circumstances), then perhaps it could be used as a "platform" to further develop concepts and elements which altogether could be transplanted into a new sandbox / hybrid MMO. Therein lies the payoff in all this.
Think of the concept as a giant working "testbed" where feedback is live and on a much bigger scale than what could normally be achieved in a pre-alpha "friends and family" test scenario. Therefore, the implication is that it isn't meant to be a main "money earner" for SOE. It is a means to an end. The "end" being a brand new sandbox / hybrid MMO design that takes concepts that have been tried and tested on a testbed (this "classic server").
2) Why F2P was mentioned
Do you normally not bother reading things before you jump to conclusions? Have you actually READ the bit at the end of the OP? Or did you just read the title and ASSUME a lot based on certain replies in this thread?
I mentioned F2P in the original post to suggest that the "climate" is riper than ever to re-introduce a free SWG Pre-NGE / CU server (perhaps charge a one off fee for connecting to it) and present it as an"experiment", which therefore wouldn't be bogged down in the legal ramifications that come with traditional "pay to play" services. No mention was actually made about an actual SWG Pre-CU server using the F2P "payment model". That's something that YOU and certain others just assumed. Please don't put words into my mouth when *I* am the one who proposed it in the first place.
What this means is that because such a server would be labelled as a temporary and experimental "test server", then SOE would have no comeback should they wish to shut the "experiement" down at a moments notice. THAT was the whole point about mentioning F2P.
Look, if you cannot grasp the original concept, then just remove ANY and ALL notions about "F2P", "Cash Shops", "Micro transactions" or any other connection to F2P payment models from your mind, and call it a FREE server. That's it, FREE. Nothing to do with F2P payment models. Get it now? Or would you prefer it if I got the hand puppets out as well?
3) My own personal regard to SWG
As far as I am concerned, SWG could burn in hell for all I personally care. I personally prefer a more themepark influenced designs because I considered SWG to be missing many of the elements which I seek out in MMOs. However, even I can recognise the fact that SWG "Pre-CU/NGE" succeeded in areas which many more recent games failed (both sandboxes AND themeparks). However the product as a whole just wasn't enough to keep me interested.
4) How does this affect the CURRENT SWG servers?
With regards to SWG NGE, the intention is that this "experiment" would have NO intended effect on the current servers whatsoever because its not meant to interact with them at all. Consider it a separate entity, running on separate servers with separate access. Just as a "Test Server" is considered separate from "Live" servers. That's why I didn't mention them, because there was no need to. They have nothing to do with this proposal and wouldn't be affected by it, aside from the possibility that people may want to try it out. But this isn't a bad thing.
5) The Server Code and what SOE has to gain from this
As mentioned by others as well, the code MAY well be hiding somewhere at SOE. Then again, it might not be. Only SOE know for sure. This post was ONLY a proposal for discussion, which implies that the OP (i.e. me) acknowledges that whilst there is merit to the idea, there may be areas which require further evaluation. Hence why I felt it was worth discussing. Don't like the idea? Fine. Don't enter into the conversation. Just don't attempt to flame it purely because you fail appreciate the long term gains that it has to offer.
Besides, what makes you SO sure that this proposal / suggestion / idea is so bad? Because YOU think SOE have nothing to gain from it? On the contrary. Sometimes a little cost in the form of research can open new avenues to explore. However, the big question is: does SOE want to explore the possibilities? I have already acknowledged this in a previous post.
Lastly, nowhere did I imply that setting up such a server would be relatively easy. However, the advantage is that the server code has been pre-written and proven to work with the hardware it ran on at the time. Of course, things change, hardware gets swapped out and thus there MAY be some compatibility issues. However, that doesn't destroy the principle that the code ALREADY worked before now. It's not like it has to be designed from scratch again IF if still exists.
In future, may I suggest that you don't just jump into a thread, making incorrect assumptions, shouting your mouth off and sounding so condescending. Maybe you would consider the possibility of actually entering into the discussion in a more civilised manner without ANY preconceptions, and trying to keep an open mind. Just like others did. Who knows? You might actually learn a thing or two about subjects you obviously know little about. Such as communication.
Well, for nostalgic reasons alone (and its free), many players will start playing. Of course you have no clue for how long, because as it is with nostalgic thoughts. The memory is never exactly like the real thing. Just some people never learn that.
you're right that its not like the real thing. For example, while unlocking my jedi wasn't exactly a defining moment in my life, nostalgia of that moment has never been able to make me feel as good as I did in that moment.
Not what you were expecting? Can people stop with the references and allusions to rose-colored glasses please.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
As I recall, what one of the Smed Clones said,was something along the lines of "It is not technically feasible...blah blah blah.. to do." They never actually said they didn't have the code, and any of us in corporate America know that intellectual property, in this case game code, is backed up multiple times, by version, and is NEVER lost... for the simple fact that the time involved in making it is worth/costs money.
You're right Burnvet, there's no way the code has been 'lost or deleted'. As anyone in software development can attest, all versions of software are constantly backed up and stored offline. The only foreseeable way SOe doesn't have the code is if they had to hand it over to LA for some contractual reason (which is plausible).
As far as releasing a Pre-CU server as F2P, I personally can't see that working unless the supported NGE version goes F2P as well.
Like I've said a few times in the past, SOE should simply launch a Pre-CU server along side the current NGE'd version under the current subscription model and really see what's what. As others have stated, they'll in all likelyhood get a substantial increase in subs at least for a short time (minimum), which will more than make it worth their while, and those who preach that the current version is better will finally be able to tell us who don't agree with them "I told you so" . Most importantly for SOE in the long term, and cannot be understated, is they can finally claim to have 'listened' to those screaming for a Pre-CU server, thus perhaps patching an incredibly tarnished reputation.
Agreed, companies only destroy their properties if there is a real reason to do so (e.g. legal reasons or transfer of IP rights from one body to another, etc). Not just on a "whim". Designs are often kept for many years after the production has long since ceased. Why? Because there maybe times that they wish to go back to those designs for a myriad of different reasons. Just because code is no longer in operation on a server, doesn't mean that it has been permanently deleted. Like you say, many versions can be stored offline.
The fact is that this kind of "experiment" can do a lot for SOE, both in terms of research and development AND to perhaps even remove some of the tarnish on their name. Not all reasons need to have a direct monetary value assigned to them. Sometimes they have intangible benefits. It all depends on what the ultimate goal is.
If we go along with the conspiracy theory and assume that the code still exists, I'd personally love to see them take the engine and give it a makeover with a new skin and IP as mentioned in earlier posts. Secondly, they would benefit by having a mulligan - a chance to fix aspects of the game that weren't 'right', such as:
Restricting the ability to wear various armor types to specific classes/hybrids
Polishing out the bugs, fix the walls, line-of-sight issues and exploits
Better class balance
Expand the routes of levelling to give it a hint of themepark feel, via questing and PvP battles
Loads more emphasis on encouraging factional PvP battles, both ground-based and in space
Some sort of real risk involved in death, maybe a random item drop?
and, I admit, I'm torn on whether I fully support this one - An attainable, huntable alpha class for end game with the risk of xp loss on death and the possibility of permadeath.
F2P, I have to disagree with. I'd sub to a game that brought all the elements that Pre-CU had and expanded on the above, even if it wasn't under the Star Wars IP. I didnt play it initially because I was a Star Wars fan, I played because the concept as a whole, I thought was a fantastic basis for a game to build upon.
Comments
Nice thoughts but I would be shocked if SOE ever did anything that would be considered "risky". SOE doesn't tend to inovate they simply try to hold on to as much market share as they can. That is why they have bought up so many mmos and left several of them to whither on the vine just to thin the market.
CU, NGE
Both of those were MASSIVE changes to the game and VERY risky.
Both CU and NGE killed the population in a huge degree.
Those risks did NOT pay off.
Now this is a plain out lie perpetuated by alleged vets who forgot how bad the game really was. What killed SWG was the hologrind which started before the CU.
What was great about FOTM classes, several broken classes, everyone in the same armor, pointless pvp, no pve beyond getting buffs by docs to goto X planet to grind all day. The risk that did not pay off was that the game was built on a horrible foundation that only looks good on paper to have 32 classes that you can mix and match. However that system is far too complex for anyone to balance.
SWG has always been flawed. Some people just don't realize that what they enjoyed was not the game itself but certain experiences and memories acquired during that time of playing the game. I had good memories of exploring with my friends and roleplaying with strangers at cantinas or at the hospital. However that roleplaying was all me and not fostered by SWG in any of its forms. You could still make new memories now in NGE if you weren't so bent on holding this grudge of how many years?
No. They made their decision
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
The funny thing is, such a proposal has far less risk than attempting to design a new sandbox style MMO from scratch without doing such a test. Spending 5 years on an MMO design only to find that it's potentially flawed.
But I do take your point. SOE aren't really "pioneers", SOE's portfolio is more of an MMO graveyard really.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I have a hardtime accepting f2p anything. I know im hard headed and too set in my ways but with the exception of GW and DDO I have never seen a f2p game worth playing more than a month.
I fear swg would be ruined with that model.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I would sell my soul to the devil to have pre-NGE SWG back. I fully support this Idea off yours, pre-NGE was one of a kind, and always will be.
People seem to be focusing in this thread on an F2P model with a cash shop for a relaunched Classic Server purely on the grounds of getting SWG Pre-CU back up and running. That's not the point.
The point is to use a sandbox design model that was previously designed and proven to function (to a degree) as a basis to create a "test server" which can then be used to test elements which would ultimately be implemented in a new MMO. I mentioned "F2P" in my OP purely on the grounds that at the moment a lot of "older" games seem to be moving into the "no subscription" area. F2P doesn't automatically mean "Cash Shop" or "microtransactions". It just means "Free to play", insinuating no subscription fee. Just as Anarchy Online is free to play.
Now where such this suggestion differs to the running of DDO etc, is that this would be viewed purely as a temporary "test server" to gauge public reaction. A massive "online survey" if you want to use that phrase. No cash shop. No microtransactions. No huge updates. No Expansions. No Customer Service (beyond forums). No Official Support (beyond forums). Just the server as it was to be used on a trial basis, the goal of which is to gauge public reaction.
It should be viewed as a Test Server, and a temporary one at that. Nothing else.
SOE have that opportunity (if the code still exists, which in all likelihood it does somewhere). Whether or not they'd want to do it to pioneer a new sandbox MMO is certainly a different matter entirely, but certainly one that cannot be ignored completely.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I know im going to get heat for this but if SOE released a Pre-cu server it would fail.
Unless they added all the pve content they released after the CU.
SWG originally just didnt have enough pve to keep todays playerbase interested.
Flame me if you want but we have a game thats similar (Ryzom) and its failing miserably.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Which is all the more reason to use an existing game model, as a platform to try out new elements which could be used as part of the SWG Pre-CU style sandbox design. Rather than spending 5 years developing yet another "traditional" sandbox design that may or may not fail.
The point is that sometimes its necessary to spend a little money to save a lot more time and resources in the long run.
It appears that many companies are finding it harder and harder to take risks these days, they don't want to spend 5 years or so on a potentially flawed product design. So they need a good incentive to break away from the "norm". But how can they be given such an incentive unless someone shows them? But no one can show them unless they spend 5 years developing a potentially failed product. Which no one will do because its too risky.
Such is the never ending circle that the industry is in. Fear of the unknown and high development costs are forcing companies to stick with what they know.
SOE are in a particularly unique position to potentially break that cycle by "recycling" an old design model and using it as a testbed to try out elements for a new design. Of course, this all hangs on the pretense that SOE would WANT to make a new Sandbox / Hybrid design MMO. This is all hyperthetical of course.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Too bad SOE no longer have the original code.
I don't have the quotes on me to link but if you search they've said a few times that going back would be impossible.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yeah, like I said before now, its quite possible that they've ditched the code. But its also possible that they still have it locked away somewhere, even for reference purposes. SOE possibly just keep telling people that they haven't got the code anymore, to stop people from putting pressue on them to implement it.
Oh well, I guess we will have to wait for an MMO developer to do it the normal way and gamble it all by developing a hybrid model from scratch. Which is even MORE unlikely than SOE launching a Classic Server as a test bed
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
And this is the price we pay for playing games in the one genre where true innovation is looked at as a high risk venture not worth doing.
In other genres games that just copy one another get fail ratings from critics and die, they are heavily criticized (as an example check out reviews of darksiders and dante's inferno lol).
this mmo genre is like video game hell, what we put ourselves through to recapture the good old days (that will never come) is just stupid and crazy.
Mmorpg genre = self inflicted cyber torture.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Rockgod is totally right. The glory days are gone. Reason being is we were younger and more easily entertained. I've been playing MMO's for 10 years now. I seriously doubt I will relive the fun I had in them when I was younger.
OK, I know this is "hypothetical", but it simply wont happen.
Look at Planetside, look at Matrix...are either of those F2P now? SWG isn't SoE's 1st failure, it's one of many and they're doing now exactly what they did before those 2 games closed. Skeleton staff, minimal tweaks, they're simply winding up the closure. SWG will NEVER be F2P under SoE. The idea that they would want your feedback when the game is free, yet they wouldn't listen to it when you PAID for the game, is just kinda silly.
True...
SOE is killing SWG and Vanguard slowly but surely...It is a shame though. I understand what you're saying about the Free vs. Paying deal, but one has to wonder what the real risk would be for SOE to come up with a F2P version of SWG and Vanguard?...I mean...If the intention is to skeleton staff both until they close em' up, what do they really have to lose? Cash Shops with a bunch of crazy Vehicles, Structures and such (including all that stuff you can get in the Card Game) could be gold mines...You never know...Let the Folks who still Pay their Subs have free reign and most of them will keep paying...Heck if they have not quit by now good God...lol...I think they're gonna stay till the bitter end...
I'm not saying they'll do it cause I know they won't...Just saying at this point it's not like it could hurt any worse...
Well this is actually the ONLY way I could ever see SWG going F2P. TCG loot (better than Cash Shop), which is cheap and easy to create, would be the only way to justify making the game F2P. In fact, I think it's foolish for them to not open the game up to be F2P the last few months, hoping to capitalize one last time on the TCG.
As I recall, what one of the Smed Clones said,was something along the lines of "It is not technically feasible...blah blah blah.. to do." They never actually said they didn't have the code, and any of us in corporate America know that intellectual property, in this case game code, is backed up multiple times, by version, and is NEVER lost... for the simple fact that the time involved in making it is worth/costs money.
Also, in the infamous "Om-nom-nom" blog post from Rubenfeld, he states quite difinitively that SOE was maintaining the pre-NGE code on servers until 6 weeks after the NGE, with the anticipation that they might be rolled back. So, they have the code.
While rolling the live servers back may very well be "impossible" if you believe them (which might actually be true), loading up a fresh server with Pre-CU/Pre-NGE is something entirely different, and is most certainly possible and probably not that difficult.
Edit: Rubenfeld said that in the first, unedited version of the blog entry; in the later edited ones, I am not sure. The links to the original should be floating around here, I saw it in a thread not long ago.
Second Edit: Found the original Rubenfeld Blog: http://www.mmofringe.com/index.php?option=com_joobb&view=topic&topic=565&Itemid=55
I think it is a good idea for customer and company, because they already paid for that developement cost, so why not use it. If no one joins, then they can cancel it and move on. Either way, they are looking at a game that is quickly losing financial viability, and they should be looking to spruce this game up in other ways than making the station pass 2% more appealing.
Elite poster by 82
First few posts show how bad the OP thought this through from a business perspective. The new server would use the F2P payment model. But when someone assumes this means there will be a cash shop, the OP says, no. So his 'F2P payment model' isnt a payment model at all. It just costs SOE money.
Money that SOE clearly is not willing to spend on current SWG implementation, let alone on some new server(s) with a different SWG implementation.
But then its suddenly a testenvironment to see how the public reacts.
Well, for nostalgic reasons alone (and its free), many players will start playing. Of course you have no clue for how long, because as it is with nostalgic thoughts. The memory is never exactly like the real thing. Just some people never learn that.
Anyway, it all sound nice, but he doesnt tell us how it will affect the current implementation of SWG. What would current players (who pay a montly sub, or several) do when they learn about this? I have an idea what the OP will answer though
This is where he confuses his wishes with the reality of business.
EDIT: Not to mention that the way the OP talks about reimplementing preCU code, is like if you install some old game you have lying somewhere.
You're right Burnvet, there's no way the code has been 'lost or deleted'. As anyone in software development can attest, all versions of software are constantly backed up and stored offline. The only foreseeable way SOe doesn't have the code is if they had to hand it over to LA for some contractual reason (which is plausible).
As far as releasing a Pre-CU server as F2P, I personally can't see that working unless the supported NGE version goes F2P as well.
Like I've said a few times in the past, SOE should simply launch a Pre-CU server along side the current NGE'd version under the current subscription model and really see what's what. As others have stated, they'll in all likelyhood get a substantial increase in subs at least for a short time (minimum), which will more than make it worth their while, and those who preach that the current version is better will finally be able to tell us who don't agree with them "I told you so"
. Most importantly for SOE in the long term, and cannot be understated, is they can finally claim to have 'listened' to those screaming for a Pre-CU server, thus perhaps patching an incredibly tarnished reputation.
I'm only responding to this because of the gross inaccurate assumptions that you made.
1) The intention of the OP (me)
The OP was intended to be a proposal for discussion regarding an "experiment" that uses a single server cluster (a shard if you want to call it that) running a version of "classic SWG" (Pre NGE / CU). The intention of the experiment would be to see:
How todays MMO customerbase would REALLY react to the re-introduction of a "classic SWG" sandbox game, as opposed to what people SAY they would like or guess how players would react.
If sandboxes are "the way forward". A certain many hold onto the notion that it is, and often cite SWG as an example of a relatively good one. So it would certainly be interesting to see just HOW much interested people would be in that design again.
If this server proved once again to be relatively popular (under the circumstances), then perhaps it could be used as a "platform" to further develop concepts and elements which altogether could be transplanted into a new sandbox / hybrid MMO. Therein lies the payoff in all this.
Think of the concept as a giant working "testbed" where feedback is live and on a much bigger scale than what could normally be achieved in a pre-alpha "friends and family" test scenario. Therefore, the implication is that it isn't meant to be a main "money earner" for SOE. It is a means to an end. The "end" being a brand new sandbox / hybrid MMO design that takes concepts that have been tried and tested on a testbed (this "classic server").
2) Why F2P was mentioned
Do you normally not bother reading things before you jump to conclusions? Have you actually READ the bit at the end of the OP? Or did you just read the title and ASSUME a lot based on certain replies in this thread?
I mentioned F2P in the original post to suggest that the "climate" is riper than ever to re-introduce a free SWG Pre-NGE / CU server (perhaps charge a one off fee for connecting to it) and present it as an"experiment", which therefore wouldn't be bogged down in the legal ramifications that come with traditional "pay to play" services. No mention was actually made about an actual SWG Pre-CU server using the F2P "payment model". That's something that YOU and certain others just assumed. Please don't put words into my mouth when *I* am the one who proposed it in the first place.
What this means is that because such a server would be labelled as a temporary and experimental "test server", then SOE would have no comeback should they wish to shut the "experiement" down at a moments notice. THAT was the whole point about mentioning F2P.
Look, if you cannot grasp the original concept, then just remove ANY and ALL notions about "F2P", "Cash Shops", "Micro transactions" or any other connection to F2P payment models from your mind, and call it a FREE server. That's it, FREE. Nothing to do with F2P payment models. Get it now? Or would you prefer it if I got the hand puppets out as well?
3) My own personal regard to SWG
As far as I am concerned, SWG could burn in hell for all I personally care. I personally prefer a more themepark influenced designs because I considered SWG to be missing many of the elements which I seek out in MMOs. However, even I can recognise the fact that SWG "Pre-CU/NGE" succeeded in areas which many more recent games failed (both sandboxes AND themeparks). However the product as a whole just wasn't enough to keep me interested.
4) How does this affect the CURRENT SWG servers?
With regards to SWG NGE, the intention is that this "experiment" would have NO intended effect on the current servers whatsoever because its not meant to interact with them at all. Consider it a separate entity, running on separate servers with separate access. Just as a "Test Server" is considered separate from "Live" servers. That's why I didn't mention them, because there was no need to. They have nothing to do with this proposal and wouldn't be affected by it, aside from the possibility that people may want to try it out. But this isn't a bad thing.
5) The Server Code and what SOE has to gain from this
As mentioned by others as well, the code MAY well be hiding somewhere at SOE. Then again, it might not be. Only SOE know for sure. This post was ONLY a proposal for discussion, which implies that the OP (i.e. me) acknowledges that whilst there is merit to the idea, there may be areas which require further evaluation. Hence why I felt it was worth discussing. Don't like the idea? Fine. Don't enter into the conversation. Just don't attempt to flame it purely because you fail appreciate the long term gains that it has to offer.
Besides, what makes you SO sure that this proposal / suggestion / idea is so bad? Because YOU think SOE have nothing to gain from it? On the contrary. Sometimes a little cost in the form of research can open new avenues to explore. However, the big question is: does SOE want to explore the possibilities? I have already acknowledged this in a previous post.
Lastly, nowhere did I imply that setting up such a server would be relatively easy. However, the advantage is that the server code has been pre-written and proven to work with the hardware it ran on at the time. Of course, things change, hardware gets swapped out and thus there MAY be some compatibility issues. However, that doesn't destroy the principle that the code ALREADY worked before now. It's not like it has to be designed from scratch again IF if still exists.
In future, may I suggest that you don't just jump into a thread, making incorrect assumptions, shouting your mouth off and sounding so condescending. Maybe you would consider the possibility of actually entering into the discussion in a more civilised manner without ANY preconceptions, and trying to keep an open mind. Just like others did. Who knows? You might actually learn a thing or two about subjects you obviously know little about. Such as communication.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
you're right that its not like the real thing. For example, while unlocking my jedi wasn't exactly a defining moment in my life, nostalgia of that moment has never been able to make me feel as good as I did in that moment.
Not what you were expecting? Can people stop with the references and allusions to rose-colored glasses please.
Agreed, companies only destroy their properties if there is a real reason to do so (e.g. legal reasons or transfer of IP rights from one body to another, etc). Not just on a "whim". Designs are often kept for many years after the production has long since ceased. Why? Because there maybe times that they wish to go back to those designs for a myriad of different reasons. Just because code is no longer in operation on a server, doesn't mean that it has been permanently deleted. Like you say, many versions can be stored offline.
The fact is that this kind of "experiment" can do a lot for SOE, both in terms of research and development AND to perhaps even remove some of the tarnish on their name. Not all reasons need to have a direct monetary value assigned to them. Sometimes they have intangible benefits. It all depends on what the ultimate goal is.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
If we go along with the conspiracy theory and assume that the code still exists, I'd personally love to see them take the engine and give it a makeover with a new skin and IP as mentioned in earlier posts. Secondly, they would benefit by having a mulligan - a chance to fix aspects of the game that weren't 'right', such as:
Restricting the ability to wear various armor types to specific classes/hybrids
Polishing out the bugs, fix the walls, line-of-sight issues and exploits
Better class balance
Expand the routes of levelling to give it a hint of themepark feel, via questing and PvP battles
Loads more emphasis on encouraging factional PvP battles, both ground-based and in space
Some sort of real risk involved in death, maybe a random item drop?
and, I admit, I'm torn on whether I fully support this one - An attainable, huntable alpha class for end game with the risk of xp loss on death and the possibility of permadeath.
F2P, I have to disagree with. I'd sub to a game that brought all the elements that Pre-CU had and expanded on the above, even if it wasn't under the Star Wars IP. I didnt play it initially because I was a Star Wars fan, I played because the concept as a whole, I thought was a fantastic basis for a game to build upon.