I MISS ULTIMA ONLINE SO BAD!!! That was my first mmo experience and the game that made the most impact on my whole perseption of online games. It was so awesome and I have to say out of all the mmos that I have played and trust me there have been tons, UO Takes the cake!
SWGs crafting system was amazing, I feel bad for anyone who did not get to enjoy it. To get a crafting system to really work, the entire gameplay system has to be built around it- Like pre-cu swg was- Crafters were deticated professions, you could earn a liviing crafting, you have a extensive player housing system, only one character is allowed per server (so everyone does not have crafter alts), auction house has limits so people have to shop in player cities/shops, the game cant rotate around raiding for uber gear because the best stuff needs to be made by players, etc.
Oh and I thought this was hilarious:
For myself, the end game of an MMORPG is its worst feature; it is the point in which you realize your pursuit has been ultimately worthless.
It is sad but true. There really has to be an end though, mmorpgs without a level cap would not just be useless- they would feel useless.
In a way you make it sound as though you like crafting so much that it would be a game unto itself ... Farmville?
I feel that crafting should be easy to perform and early crafting should be inexpensive. I do not like to run around finding ten thousand flowers or whatever to level up, plus the time spent in actual crafting. Also, crafting should be completely spelled out in a game. How can people know where parts A, B, and C are if they do not have a clue?
Also, crafted items SHOULD be among the best items in the game, otherwise, why make people kill thousands of mobs, to get drops, then skin or salvage, rinse and repeat, thousands of times to get at the top or your craft?
Most people do not seem to appreciate how much time someone spends crafting. They need rewared in some manner, so, do not try to give them 85 gold when something cost 750 gold to make. And, don't expect them to stop what they are doing and make you a full set of armor, a shield, and sword, spellcraft it [or whatever the name is in different games], and use alchemy skill to polish it off.
I do not look at crafting as fun, I look at it as a necessary evil of games. At the same time, game creators should reward crafters with outstanding gear.
Now, if someone loves Farmville, buys an MMO, and only wants to craft, I see nothing wrong with that. However, sooner or later he or she might pull his or her head out of the ground and see what the game really has to offer [hopefully].
Ok you dont seem to get why crafters craft in mmos and how they enrich the mmo community. Because people were happy to just farm resorces and develope or discover tecniques to crafting unique items for other players to use. They created their own community hubs where they would chat to and become friends with their regular customers and other crafters or just chat with passers by. They would gain renown for this and other players that focused their game time on the adventuring side of the game would feel that sence of pride when they really wanted to talk about the cool vendor/crafter they found that made them this awsome item. now the pride is only in bragging about the fact that they have had to run the same dungeon 200 times over in the hope of the rare item dropping and then having to wait inline for the next time it droped because they were out bid on dkp for it.
You are right however on the part of the significance of the items that they create. it seems that the crafting items in the wow model crafting systems cater heavely on consuables that fule the pre raid buff parrade and items rearly last 2 levels after the newest expantion has been lanched
Im not saying that there arnt any good crafting models in mmos anymore. Its just that there seems to be a greater number of them that apply a similer crafting model to the WoW crafting system. As apposed to pre 2004
This is a list of games that Ive played that had something that i liked about the crafting system
Older Games
Ultima Online - good crafting requring dedicated crafters to get the best gear.
Daoc - some worthwile gear created, but the method of crafting was tedious.
Anarchy Online - good crafting system that allowd you to make your character feel unique, allthough you could generaly get better items simply by adveturing.
SWG - Awsome crafting system that alowed players to craft pritty much everything to a higher standard than anything you could get from adventuring although it has been recently supperceeded by the items you can get fron the TCG, game purchace item bundles, and vet rewards.
EvE online - You can make everything and you have to spend time developing your character to beable to make the stuff (ive put this into older games list as it has been around for a while and the crafting priciples have largley remaned intact)
New Games
Everquest 2 - Actualy had quests to gain further crafting knowlage and you actualy had to pay attention when trying to craft an item or it could all go horrably wrong.
Vanguard - you could allocate stats into crafting and had a quest arc from lvl 1 till cap
Fallen Earth - the items that you crafte are generic but you can make pritty much everything(not found anything yet that i cant make other than paper >.<) this game seems to activly encourage players to craft as its part of the nuts and bolts of making your character work.
Inace of Fallen Earth - I agree totally. I havn't seen any better craft system in MMOs ever. That is thing what gathered so manyPvE palyers into FE, and tho I see at start devs thoiught to build it as some Counter Strike Online PvP-crap, they start to understand that majority of players isn't here for PvP, but for other things.
Nice thing is that craft is embedded part of games experience, i.e. ya can lvl to max only with craft and gathering, even not doing quests or kill-grind. If they add some end-game stuff for those who are many months at max lvl, the gamne could be best at market at now-a-time.
The only games on that list that even matter when it comes to subscriptions are WoW, Aion, and Lord of The Rings. One of them doesn't matter because it had hardcore fans that would never leave coming into it before it was even released. One has like 60% of the gaming market and the other is directed to the eastern market. It's quite funny that UO has around 100k subscriptions and it's 13 years old(assuming that chart is remotely accurate). There are very few games that have been able to do what UO has done over such a period of time. Most games now are gone in a matter of a few years or they barely are able to make enough money to keep the servers up.
More proof that gamers are looking for a UO type game with modern day improvements.
Developers nowadays choose between making another world of warcraft clone or trying to make something that is more similiar to the older games. The result is most of the time that we get the first becouse they know it has worked before.
Many of todays gamers have experianced the old games, (and i even count SWG as a new game) and only think they were grindbased boring games. They look at old screenshots and think "that game has crap graphics so it must be crap". Its to much about shiny graphics and not to much about actual content.
The meaning of crafting has diminished alot since...well i have to say it..world of warcraft. To be honest its probably that game that has brought forward almost everything we veterans dislike, the greatness of the mmo genre has gone down so much since then, but still every developer is trying to copy it.
make a game with elements from eq, daoc and uo, concentrate on the sozialising, grouping and commniy building instead of the killer part, and you have a much better game, if you concentrate on that, the killer part becomes so much better.
Story: When i played DaoC i had a crafter make me a hammer for my warrior, i gathered up alot of cash (pre ToA) and contacted the highest lvl crafter and set out to meet him at the crafting place. Now getting a crit in DaoC back then took loads of tries so i decided to make some crafting of my own in the meanwhile.
When he finally critted i made a "wohoo" to myself and happily started to trade with the crafter and accepted the trade. Then i set on my way back to apply enchants etc in another part of town, so i open up my bag, but theres no hammer! my bags are full of crafting materials!
i quickly check my message history and see "you inventory is full, the "hammer name" has been dropped on the ground"!
I run back as fast as my warrior feet can carry me and when i get near i see the bag on the ground, i target it, and right then the bag despawns....
I meet very often when talking about hardcore ol' games frases "why ya don't go and play that EQ, it still running...."
Yes it's running but after SOE made all possible from his side to change poor EQ into WoWesque clone, after so many dumbdowning it's not anymore EQ, it's some crappy SOEWOW. Thanx but not for me.
But to show there are many ol' school players around the world were risen a lot of so-called provate servers based on EQ pre-Luclin era. No fast transport thru Nexus etc. And there are thousands of old schoolers still enjoy this.
Good job overall but I respectfully disagree with your comments based on crafting in oldschool MMORPGs.
Crafting
You wrote unless UO that may be true but do you realize that Everquest 1 had a very stable and nice crafting system? Throwing in random materials and gaining something usefull was fun. Also crafting helped non mages to get something similar to a portal scroll, till Soe dumbed it down and introduced the 9 AA recall ability for everyone with Omens of War. I can honestly tell you, my first very good weapon had been a crafted staff back in the golden days of Everquest 1 and I was happy like a child, thanked my guildcrafter a million times.
While I agree Ultima Online has had the best ever seen crafting system yet. Its such a shame that no game came close to this great and - not very hard to understand - crafting system. You didn't need a tutorial just ask another player back in the gold old days people were helpful, mature and dedicated as you mentioned it.
I have yet to see a game with a nice crafting system again. Vanguard did an outstanding job with its crafting system, even Everquest 2 had some nice elements but - like Soe is known for - they NGE'd it and dumbed it down quick. Fully agreeing with your comments about World of Warcraft's so called "craft system" which really isn't one. Just gather materials and the AI will do all the work for you -> boring and braindead like hell.
So for me crafting: 8 (old) / 4 (new)
Guilds
Its such a shame that guilds have become nothing more than a community of purpose. Things like message of the day, guild bankslots also lead to a lot of drama less communication which is always a bad thing in my mind. Convinience may be nice but current MMO games are overusing it to a point, where communication - in/out of guilds - is really suffering which is hurting the community big time.
Guilds: 7 (old) / 4 (new)
Difficulty/Time Sink
All those new players have yet to understand, that MMORPGs are meant to be a time sink, difficult and hard to master. The stupid slogan "I want fun and not work" doesn't count here. If something is fun it doesn't feel like a work. Sadly newer games are feeling more like a work for me, than Everquest 1, Ultima Online could have ever dreamed off, the reason for that is rather simple: dumbed down action based gameplay...
Join a guild, raid or group nowadays chances are high the first thing you will read before "hail thee" will be something like "ts3....., ventrillo" giving up a lot of RPG atmosphere and dreaming of a virtual crafted world. Time sinks such as death penatlies, corpse runs and unforgiving mobs are a good thing, they are teaching you "better come back next time when you are better, more experienced" nowadays its like "oh we wiped nerf pls or lets gather some better gear and come back then" you don't need to be a good player anymore in most cases you can "outdifficult" almost the whole game by just gathering highend gear which is doing the same instances over and over again, is that really difficult NO, its boring.
Aion has it right with its medidate system, you're sitting down resting and therefore gaining faster MP back. I'm really missing the days of challenging, difficult mmorpgs making you feel like you're in a fantasy world full of danger, exploration with friends. Hopes are high for Tera and of course the Masquereade from CCP.
Difficulty Time Sink (10) / 3
boring.
boring.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Wow!!!! I'm going to disagree big time with you when it comes to crafting in older mmos. Crafting was everything, the older games basically revolved around crafting. Crafting in todays games are a side mini game while in older games crafting was the life blood! I honestly think the OP did that on purpose for a reaction even the old school mmo haters know how important crafting was in those games. After reading that I've honestly lost all interest in the rest of this series...
Edit: Man... I'm generally pissed at this dudes opinion. I just feel really strongly about crafting in older games. From UO to EVE crafting has been much more indepth and generally important game wide than in todays offerings. Only two games could make a case for half decent crafting. Vanguard & Fallen Earth other than that crafting has been worthless imo.
Lotro's crafting isn't bad. To me, crafting isn't a mini-game but it isn't super hard either today. Crafting, in reality, is basically a job. To make it in-depth/made in detail with tons of steps would definitely suck. A lot of people don't play MMORPGs to have another job to do. Aion tried to put it a bit deep, you having to constantly run around for materials and trying to crit on what you're crafting. It really did feel like a job and people didn't like it. Vanguard crafting people say was fun and the best but I also heard people say it was just too much. I think this article is putting out what would work better now, the older MMO crafting wouldn't work out too well today. As the article also said, there wasn't that great of rewards in the older crafting, I don't believe the article said all of the older MMOs did that though.
Crafting in an mmorpg shouldnt cater to combat oriented players who want something casual to do in their downtime. Crafting should be another entirely separate and unique aspect of an mmorpg that caters to players who arent as interested in combat. In my opinion, i think both the mmorpg community as a whole and the developers who cater to them are missing the point of crafting. Everybody wants immersion and lore and a strong community. Well its kinda hard to cultivate a rich deep world when all these new games are offering (for the most part) is combat and personal story. Its a malnourished mmorpg.
It is funny to see our poster newbies affronted by Mr Tingle’s article. They say he is too sentimental, nostalgic etc. That is the same old lame excuse that is always rolled out when anyone points to the fact that older MMO’s have some elements of game play which are better than newer ones.
I said some elements, not all of us agree on exactly which were the elements we want to keep. The more open world, factional PvE, worthwhile crafting economy, strong grouping element, RPG tools like race languages and proper GM events have all waned or disappeared. What have we gained other than a more immediate experience?
In Darkfall clans are tight like days of old MMO's and members will go out their way to watch each others backs. It's all about the players in Darkfall, it has a lot of that old school feel, basic now but it's being expanded on every expansion.
Wow!!!! I'm going to disagree big time with you when it comes to crafting in older mmos.
Crafting was everything, the older games basically revolved around crafting.
Crafting in todays games are a side mini game while in older games crafting was the life blood!
I honestly think the OP did that on purpose for a reaction even the old school mmo haters know how important crafting was in those games.
After reading that I've honestly lost all interest in the rest of this series...
Edit: Man... I'm generally pissed at this dudes opinion. I just feel really strongly about crafting in older games. From UO to EVE crafting has been much more indepth and generally important game wide than in todays offerings. Only two games could make a case for half decent crafting. Vanguard & Fallen Earth other than that crafting has been worthless imo.
Lotro's crafting isn't bad.
To me, crafting isn't a mini-game but it isn't super hard either today. Crafting, in reality, is basically a job. To make it in-depth/made in detail with tons of steps would definitely suck. A lot of people don't play MMORPGs to have another job to do.
Aion tried to put it a bit deep, you having to constantly run around for materials and trying to crit on what you're crafting. It really did feel like a job and people didn't like it. Vanguard crafting people say was fun and the best but I also heard people say it was just too much.
I think this article is putting out what would work better now, the older MMO crafting wouldn't work out too well today. As the article also said, there wasn't that great of rewards in the older crafting, I don't believe the article said all of the older MMOs did that though.
Agreed, LOTRO's crafting is quite good, and it has quite a nice community and I even see the motivation that was back in the old days to work together.
I am getting free rares from some players from my Kinship, I go to PvP and see people in chat inviting and communicating nstead of trolling. I had a /say convo near a major bank and was kindly requested to put that to whispers. I go to the forum and see a player being complained at for being rude in PvP. And you know what? Instead of the QQ from players that think the OP is a whiner (WoW) he gets support with like 10 to 20 different replies.
Whatever happens gaming is supposed to be fun, and that's the sole reason why games were better before: people were nicer to each other.
The bias is everywhere. Nostalgia is everywhere. This article is biased beyond believe. I mean look at Difficulty/Time Sink Factor. Difficulty =/= time sink factor. Old MMORPGs were for people who could spend their entire day in front of the computer grinding and grinding and grinding. Basically people who are not all there :P And when you make a mistake they take away a LOT of experience/loot etc. and you have to do even more grinding. This is not difficult.
There is a reason only a handful of people played MMOs back in the day. Cause they were more boring and time consuming than even today's MMOs. Now I will leave you all to your nostalgia and remember the 'glorious' old days while spouting complete non-sense about newer MMOs. Thank you!
While the grind of leveling has been reducded in some games (like WoW) it hasn't in others. The truth of the end game is as stated once you reach it there is nothing to do until the next expansion and like you said your hard work is null and you begin again. But I suppose this is the goal and purpose of most.
Crafting for the most part in most games is more of a past time than anything worth while. Most crafting is really pointless as far as having something to sell and make any coin with. In WoW you craft and most of what you craft is worthless for the most part. You can farm and sell ore and herbs and different matts but even that is not profitable for the time you spending doing so. You can get drops in the game better than what you can craft. Some old crafting was worth while in some games while it was useless in others.. LotR and Atlantica it is useful and even in AC2. WoW has always lacked usefulness but that may change some in the next expansion. Time will tell.
For the most part though it is true crafting is more of a pass the time than useful.
There is more Guild hopping and less dedication when it comes to guilds anymore.
It seems the easier it is to form a guild the less you find players that will stick with and stand by their guild and be proud of any guild accomplishments.
WoW has made it hard on small guilds and pugs have made it even worse. This may change a bit with the next expansion but again Time will tell.
Good job overall but I respectfully disagree with your comments based on crafting in oldschool MMORPGs.
Crafting
You wrote unless UO that may be true but do you realize that Everquest 1 had a very stable and nice crafting system? Throwing in random materials and gaining something usefull was fun. Also crafting helped non mages to get something similar to a portal scroll, till Soe dumbed it down and introduced the 9 AA recall ability for everyone with Omens of War. I can honestly tell you, my first very good weapon had been a crafted staff back in the golden days of Everquest 1 and I was happy like a child, thanked my guildcrafter a million times.
While I agree Ultima Online has had the best ever seen crafting system yet. Its such a shame that no game came close to this great and - not very hard to understand - crafting system. You didn't need a tutorial just ask another player back in the gold old days people were helpful, mature and dedicated as you mentioned it.
I have yet to see a game with a nice crafting system again. Vanguard did an outstanding job with its crafting system, even Everquest 2 had some nice elements but - like Soe is known for - they NGE'd it and dumbed it down quick. Fully agreeing with your comments about World of Warcraft's so called "craft system" which really isn't one. Just gather materials and the AI will do all the work for you -> boring and braindead like hell.
So for me crafting: 8 (old) / 4 (new)
Guilds
Its such a shame that guilds have become nothing more than a community of purpose. Things like message of the day, guild bankslots also lead to a lot of drama less communication which is always a bad thing in my mind. Convinience may be nice but current MMO games are overusing it to a point, where communication - in/out of guilds - is really suffering which is hurting the community big time.
Guilds: 7 (old) / 4 (new)
Difficulty/Time Sink
All those new players have yet to understand, that MMORPGs are meant to be a time sink, difficult and hard to master. The stupid slogan "I want fun and not work" doesn't count here. If something is fun it doesn't feel like a work. Sadly newer games are feeling more like a work for me, than Everquest 1, Ultima Online could have ever dreamed off, the reason for that is rather simple: dumbed down action based gameplay...
Join a guild, raid or group nowadays chances are high the first thing you will read before "hail thee" will be something like "ts3....., ventrillo" giving up a lot of RPG atmosphere and dreaming of a virtual crafted world. Time sinks such as death penatlies, corpse runs and unforgiving mobs are a good thing, they are teaching you "better come back next time when you are better, more experienced" nowadays its like "oh we wiped nerf pls or lets gather some better gear and come back then" you don't need to be a good player anymore in most cases you can "outdifficult" almost the whole game by just gathering highend gear which is doing the same instances over and over again, is that really difficult NO, its boring.
Aion has it right with its medidate system, you're sitting down resting and therefore gaining faster MP back. I'm really missing the days of challenging, difficult mmorpgs making you feel like you're in a fantasy world full of danger, exploration with friends. Hopes are high for Tera and of course the Masquereade from CCP.
Difficulty Time Sink (10) / 3
boring.
boring.
LOTRO craft wasn't bad at beginning but later was most professions killed by radiance armor and legendary item everybody must to have, also it was somehow stupid in means one could be supreme master weaponsmith and could do like best weapons, and at same time he can't make even easiest shild or metal plate piece for armor.
But now, and in all my MMOs history undisputedly best crafting system is in Fallen Earth. And crafting is meaningful - best weapons, armor, food-drinks, medicine, vehicles (incl. horses) are all player made. There is only few items one can't craft and those aren't from top-grade. From loot (even boos-loot) ya can get at best average things, never best ones.
And craft give ya experience and those exp points fall into same bundle where from quests or killing. So if ya not big lover of fights ya can go to max lvl by means of crafting and gathering mats. And everybody can be crafter. To go to the top needs to max some needed skills so ya must choose how to spend them - ya wanna be PvP-guy then in craft area ya can be only mediocre lvl, wanna max crafting, then ya must choose which combat skill ya max from many.
Then nice thing is that there is only very few items that are soul-binded like in most other now-a-day MMOs. Ya use this rifle til ya grow up and ya skill is ready for next tier. But old one ya can give/sold away to younger players. And to hold away case when market is saturated they invented "fatigue" - better items all have it and after each repair item lose one point from 20. If there stays no points, item is totally broken. Ya must rebuild or craft new one.
So though devs had in their heads to make one PvP-oriented game, it happens that thanx to big open world, best crafting, some more close to ol'timer's sandboxie build, FE grab tons of PvE players in, and this number is going.
I recommend have a look if ya ahvn't, or who had year ago, look now how many game is developed by this year
If older game design was so much better than current, then why aren't older games still thriving? Why are newer games that try to catch the older game feel with updated graphics (Vanguard/Darkfall) barely surviving? If there were enough old school gamers out there who would play a newer version of those games, then I am surprised no companies have jumped on that market. I just don't think there are enough gamers out there to support a major investment into a game that feels like games from almost ten years ago. Change can be difficult to deal with, but it is also inevitable.
Because now it's all about accessiblity. Better doesn't always appeal to the masses because of value (Time or cost).
Why would you ever go to a McDonald's when you could go to a fine, 5 star resturant? Time and accessibility. You can show up at McDonald's in your PJ's and still get a hamburger that does the job for a buck. At the resturant, you may have to wear nice cloths and pay something for it, maybe even have to make a reservation.
The problem with this is, some people appreciate the EXPERIENCE of going to a nice resturant, the environment, the detail, care, and quality of the food. Others just want to fill their stomachs and get on with their day. Either approach is, quite frankly, fine. There's nothing wrong with either. It's just no one is making any more nice resturants, so newer players will never have the opportunity to appreciate a fine dining experience who may have greatly enjoyed it, and older players fondly remember.
Most people like things cheap, fast, and uncomplicated. Hence, the new generation is the most profitable.
ok im not going to write a missive wall of a post im just going to list how iot shoudl be.
crafting should be a specific class not a feature for combat classes to experiment with
crafted items shoudl be the best items in the game not instance items or quest rewards
resource gathering should be a complex process that requires work to make the most of them and resources should not be easily accessible, this is why we have gold sellers in games.
guilds shoul have mechanics inplace to empowwer the guild leader to a sort of lord status and the guild its self should have functions and setting to allow for micro management and allow for guild members to actually feel like they have a place in such an organisation of players just like eve online has.
guilds should be difficult to create that have requirements to restrict the number of pointless guilds that are created which flood the game world and usually spread bad vibes of the games guil system.
guild hopers should be punished severly for hopping guilds and guild leaders should be forced to put out detailed recruitment posts to ensure they are running their guild propperly.
there shouldnt be a world chat, world chats just allow gold sellers to promote their illegal products illegally which eventually drives the games ecenomy into the floor forcing people to buy more of their illegal product just to keep their heads above water.
and as for time sync - simple really, while games are easy to play and things such as companions are there for you to solo the game then their is no feel of acheivment, this means the game is relatively boreing. level grinding is bnoreing and most games today pretty much help you with your grind. games should be difficult and not feel like your grinding to a maximum level.
too many people play mmo's today secifically to reach level cap and pvp with best geer, what on earth happened to economy diplomacy crafting community and rp. where are these aspects gone. are they gone because devs no longer take them into concideration when creating games. ??
Why on earth do you count EVE a a "post-2004" game?! What part of that game reminds you of WoW?!
Amazing column, wrong in every sentence.
what he said, im an eve player from day one, that's just wrong counting it post 04.
as for crafting, yes there was a couple of titles here and there like uo, swg maybe daoc that had crafting. but if you compare that to the slew of titles on offer (non-wow-esque) today, out of the sheer huge number of titles out today, there are a shitload of ones with absolutely great crafting systems, and the only one of the old games that still holds it on par with newer offerings is eve. i mean heck, fallen earth is eve on earth lol in terms of economy and crafting. vanguard has such complicated and rewarding crafting experience that i wanted to blow my brains out trying to figure it out but once did, was freaking awesome and hugely rewarding. yet please look at lineage 2 in the old category, to get freaking mats you had to kill mobs, and thats that. no other way besides buying from players at over exuberated prices. for leather and cloth in wow you have to kill mobs too but hey wow is trash in my opinion so we won't go there.
"Things are definitely 'hotting' up" Wouldn't that be 'heating' up?
Also i agree on old guild thing, knew a guy that played DAOC and had his own guild. And once a year the whole guild would meet somewhere and hangout for a couple days. Even if they had to fly down/up.
The attitude and mindset of gamers have changed in the past 10 years. They now want 3 things.
1. Quests
2. Shiny things
3. Be able to solo EVERYTHING
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Crafting was everything in MMOs of the day, you either made gear that allowed you to survive being hit by a giant hammer or you would fall dead on the ground and they would cut your body up into tiny pieces before your ghostly eyes and sell them off for bounty after they have sucessfully RAPED what was left of your asteral self!
Apparently the editor doesn''t remember EQ through Velious, when it comes to crafting. Since he references EQ so often, I would think he would have some basic understanding of crafting in early EQ.
Comments
I MISS ULTIMA ONLINE SO BAD!!! That was my first mmo experience and the game that made the most impact on my whole perseption of online games. It was so awesome and I have to say out of all the mmos that I have played and trust me there have been tons, UO Takes the cake!
SWGs crafting system was amazing, I feel bad for anyone who did not get to enjoy it. To get a crafting system to really work, the entire gameplay system has to be built around it- Like pre-cu swg was- Crafters were deticated professions, you could earn a liviing crafting, you have a extensive player housing system, only one character is allowed per server (so everyone does not have crafter alts), auction house has limits so people have to shop in player cities/shops, the game cant rotate around raiding for uber gear because the best stuff needs to be made by players, etc.
Oh and I thought this was hilarious:
For myself, the end game of an MMORPG is its worst feature; it is the point in which you realize your pursuit has been ultimately worthless.
It is sad but true. There really has to be an end though, mmorpgs without a level cap would not just be useless- they would feel useless.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Inace of Fallen Earth - I agree totally. I havn't seen any better craft system in MMOs ever. That is thing what gathered so manyPvE palyers into FE, and tho I see at start devs thoiught to build it as some Counter Strike Online PvP-crap, they start to understand that majority of players isn't here for PvP, but for other things.
Nice thing is that craft is embedded part of games experience, i.e. ya can lvl to max only with craft and gathering, even not doing quests or kill-grind. If they add some end-game stuff for those who are many months at max lvl, the gamne could be best at market at now-a-time.
Good and very true post !!!
MMOs are trying to appease to the masses instead of providing depth.
Darkfall - Complicated, skill based, crafting IS the means for you to contine playing.
Anyone who misses the days of old should really get in Darkfall .. its not trying to appeal to everyone and just provide something solid.
The only games on that list that even matter when it comes to subscriptions are WoW, Aion, and Lord of The Rings. One of them doesn't matter because it had hardcore fans that would never leave coming into it before it was even released. One has like 60% of the gaming market and the other is directed to the eastern market. It's quite funny that UO has around 100k subscriptions and it's 13 years old(assuming that chart is remotely accurate). There are very few games that have been able to do what UO has done over such a period of time. Most games now are gone in a matter of a few years or they barely are able to make enough money to keep the servers up.
More proof that gamers are looking for a UO type game with modern day improvements.
Developers nowadays choose between making another world of warcraft clone or trying to make something that is more similiar to the older games. The result is most of the time that we get the first becouse they know it has worked before.
Many of todays gamers have experianced the old games, (and i even count SWG as a new game) and only think they were grindbased boring games. They look at old screenshots and think "that game has crap graphics so it must be crap". Its to much about shiny graphics and not to much about actual content.
The meaning of crafting has diminished alot since...well i have to say it..world of warcraft. To be honest its probably that game that has brought forward almost everything we veterans dislike, the greatness of the mmo genre has gone down so much since then, but still every developer is trying to copy it.
make a game with elements from eq, daoc and uo, concentrate on the sozialising, grouping and commniy building instead of the killer part, and you have a much better game, if you concentrate on that, the killer part becomes so much better.
Story: When i played DaoC i had a crafter make me a hammer for my warrior, i gathered up alot of cash (pre ToA) and contacted the highest lvl crafter and set out to meet him at the crafting place. Now getting a crit in DaoC back then took loads of tries so i decided to make some crafting of my own in the meanwhile.
When he finally critted i made a "wohoo" to myself and happily started to trade with the crafter and accepted the trade. Then i set on my way back to apply enchants etc in another part of town, so i open up my bag, but theres no hammer! my bags are full of crafting materials!
i quickly check my message history and see "you inventory is full, the "hammer name" has been dropped on the ground"!
I run back as fast as my warrior feet can carry me and when i get near i see the bag on the ground, i target it, and right then the bag despawns....
I meet very often when talking about hardcore ol' games frases "why ya don't go and play that EQ, it still running...."
Yes it's running but after SOE made all possible from his side to change poor EQ into WoWesque clone, after so many dumbdowning it's not anymore EQ, it's some crappy SOEWOW. Thanx but not for me.
But to show there are many ol' school players around the world were risen a lot of so-called provate servers based on EQ pre-Luclin era. No fast transport thru Nexus etc. And there are thousands of old schoolers still enjoy this.
Good job overall but I respectfully disagree with your comments based on crafting in oldschool MMORPGs.
Crafting
You wrote unless UO that may be true but do you realize that Everquest 1 had a very stable and nice crafting system? Throwing in random materials and gaining something usefull was fun. Also crafting helped non mages to get something similar to a portal scroll, till Soe dumbed it down and introduced the 9 AA recall ability for everyone with Omens of War. I can honestly tell you, my first very good weapon had been a crafted staff back in the golden days of Everquest 1 and I was happy like a child, thanked my guildcrafter a million times.
While I agree Ultima Online has had the best ever seen crafting system yet. Its such a shame that no game came close to this great and - not very hard to understand - crafting system. You didn't need a tutorial just ask another player back in the gold old days people were helpful, mature and dedicated as you mentioned it.
I have yet to see a game with a nice crafting system again. Vanguard did an outstanding job with its crafting system, even Everquest 2 had some nice elements but - like Soe is known for - they NGE'd it and dumbed it down quick. Fully agreeing with your comments about World of Warcraft's so called "craft system" which really isn't one. Just gather materials and the AI will do all the work for you -> boring and braindead like hell.
So for me crafting: 8 (old) / 4 (new)
Guilds
Its such a shame that guilds have become nothing more than a community of purpose. Things like message of the day, guild bankslots also lead to a lot of drama less communication which is always a bad thing in my mind. Convinience may be nice but current MMO games are overusing it to a point, where communication - in/out of guilds - is really suffering which is hurting the community big time.
Guilds: 7 (old) / 4 (new)
Difficulty/Time Sink
All those new players have yet to understand, that MMORPGs are meant to be a time sink, difficult and hard to master. The stupid slogan "I want fun and not work" doesn't count here. If something is fun it doesn't feel like a work. Sadly newer games are feeling more like a work for me, than Everquest 1, Ultima Online could have ever dreamed off, the reason for that is rather simple: dumbed down action based gameplay...
Join a guild, raid or group nowadays chances are high the first thing you will read before "hail thee" will be something like "ts3....., ventrillo" giving up a lot of RPG atmosphere and dreaming of a virtual crafted world. Time sinks such as death penatlies, corpse runs and unforgiving mobs are a good thing, they are teaching you "better come back next time when you are better, more experienced" nowadays its like "oh we wiped nerf pls or lets gather some better gear and come back then" you don't need to be a good player anymore in most cases you can "outdifficult" almost the whole game by just gathering highend gear which is doing the same instances over and over again, is that really difficult NO, its boring.
Aion has it right with its medidate system, you're sitting down resting and therefore gaining faster MP back. I'm really missing the days of challenging, difficult mmorpgs making you feel like you're in a fantasy world full of danger, exploration with friends. Hopes are high for Tera and of course the Masquereade from CCP.
Difficulty Time Sink (10) / 3
boring.
boring.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Crafting in an mmorpg shouldnt cater to combat oriented players who want something casual to do in their downtime. Crafting should be another entirely separate and unique aspect of an mmorpg that caters to players who arent as interested in combat. In my opinion, i think both the mmorpg community as a whole and the developers who cater to them are missing the point of crafting. Everybody wants immersion and lore and a strong community. Well its kinda hard to cultivate a rich deep world when all these new games are offering (for the most part) is combat and personal story. Its a malnourished mmorpg.
It is funny to see our poster newbies affronted by Mr Tingle’s article. They say he is too sentimental, nostalgic etc. That is the same old lame excuse that is always rolled out when anyone points to the fact that older MMO’s have some elements of game play which are better than newer ones.
I said some elements, not all of us agree on exactly which were the elements we want to keep. The more open world, factional PvE, worthwhile crafting economy, strong grouping element, RPG tools like race languages and proper GM events have all waned or disappeared. What have we gained other than a more immediate experience?
In Darkfall clans are tight like days of old MMO's and members will go out their way to watch each others backs. It's all about the players in Darkfall, it has a lot of that old school feel, basic now but it's being expanded on every expansion.
Agreed, LOTRO's crafting is quite good, and it has quite a nice community and I even see the motivation that was back in the old days to work together.
I am getting free rares from some players from my Kinship, I go to PvP and see people in chat inviting and communicating nstead of trolling. I had a /say convo near a major bank and was kindly requested to put that to whispers. I go to the forum and see a player being complained at for being rude in PvP. And you know what? Instead of the QQ from players that think the OP is a whiner (WoW) he gets support with like 10 to 20 different replies.
Whatever happens gaming is supposed to be fun, and that's the sole reason why games were better before: people were nicer to each other.
The bias is everywhere. Nostalgia is everywhere. This article is biased beyond believe. I mean look at Difficulty/Time Sink Factor. Difficulty =/= time sink factor. Old MMORPGs were for people who could spend their entire day in front of the computer grinding and grinding and grinding. Basically people who are not all there :P And when you make a mistake they take away a LOT of experience/loot etc. and you have to do even more grinding. This is not difficult.
There is a reason only a handful of people played MMOs back in the day. Cause they were more boring and time consuming than even today's MMOs. Now I will leave you all to your nostalgia and remember the 'glorious' old days while spouting complete non-sense about newer MMOs. Thank you!
While the grind of leveling has been reducded in some games (like WoW) it hasn't in others. The truth of the end game is as stated once you reach it there is nothing to do until the next expansion and like you said your hard work is null and you begin again. But I suppose this is the goal and purpose of most.
Crafting for the most part in most games is more of a past time than anything worth while. Most crafting is really pointless as far as having something to sell and make any coin with. In WoW you craft and most of what you craft is worthless for the most part. You can farm and sell ore and herbs and different matts but even that is not profitable for the time you spending doing so. You can get drops in the game better than what you can craft. Some old crafting was worth while in some games while it was useless in others.. LotR and Atlantica it is useful and even in AC2. WoW has always lacked usefulness but that may change some in the next expansion. Time will tell.
For the most part though it is true crafting is more of a pass the time than useful.
Gikku
Oh and you are pretty dead on with the Guild.
There is more Guild hopping and less dedication when it comes to guilds anymore.
It seems the easier it is to form a guild the less you find players that will stick with and stand by their guild and be proud of any guild accomplishments.
WoW has made it hard on small guilds and pugs have made it even worse. This may change a bit with the next expansion but again Time will tell.
Gikku
LOTRO craft wasn't bad at beginning but later was most professions killed by radiance armor and legendary item everybody must to have, also it was somehow stupid in means one could be supreme master weaponsmith and could do like best weapons, and at same time he can't make even easiest shild or metal plate piece for armor.
But now, and in all my MMOs history undisputedly best crafting system is in Fallen Earth. And crafting is meaningful - best weapons, armor, food-drinks, medicine, vehicles (incl. horses) are all player made. There is only few items one can't craft and those aren't from top-grade. From loot (even boos-loot) ya can get at best average things, never best ones.
And craft give ya experience and those exp points fall into same bundle where from quests or killing. So if ya not big lover of fights ya can go to max lvl by means of crafting and gathering mats. And everybody can be crafter. To go to the top needs to max some needed skills so ya must choose how to spend them - ya wanna be PvP-guy then in craft area ya can be only mediocre lvl, wanna max crafting, then ya must choose which combat skill ya max from many.
Then nice thing is that there is only very few items that are soul-binded like in most other now-a-day MMOs. Ya use this rifle til ya grow up and ya skill is ready for next tier. But old one ya can give/sold away to younger players. And to hold away case when market is saturated they invented "fatigue" - better items all have it and after each repair item lose one point from 20. If there stays no points, item is totally broken. Ya must rebuild or craft new one.
So though devs had in their heads to make one PvP-oriented game, it happens that thanx to big open world, best crafting, some more close to ol'timer's sandboxie build, FE grab tons of PvE players in, and this number is going.
I recommend have a look if ya ahvn't, or who had year ago, look now how many game is developed by this year
Well said, well said.
ok im not going to write a missive wall of a post im just going to list how iot shoudl be.
crafting should be a specific class not a feature for combat classes to experiment with
crafted items shoudl be the best items in the game not instance items or quest rewards
resource gathering should be a complex process that requires work to make the most of them and resources should not be easily accessible, this is why we have gold sellers in games.
guilds shoul have mechanics inplace to empowwer the guild leader to a sort of lord status and the guild its self should have functions and setting to allow for micro management and allow for guild members to actually feel like they have a place in such an organisation of players just like eve online has.
guilds should be difficult to create that have requirements to restrict the number of pointless guilds that are created which flood the game world and usually spread bad vibes of the games guil system.
guild hopers should be punished severly for hopping guilds and guild leaders should be forced to put out detailed recruitment posts to ensure they are running their guild propperly.
there shouldnt be a world chat, world chats just allow gold sellers to promote their illegal products illegally which eventually drives the games ecenomy into the floor forcing people to buy more of their illegal product just to keep their heads above water.
and as for time sync - simple really, while games are easy to play and things such as companions are there for you to solo the game then their is no feel of acheivment, this means the game is relatively boreing. level grinding is bnoreing and most games today pretty much help you with your grind. games should be difficult and not feel like your grinding to a maximum level.
too many people play mmo's today secifically to reach level cap and pvp with best geer, what on earth happened to economy diplomacy crafting community and rp. where are these aspects gone. are they gone because devs no longer take them into concideration when creating games. ??
The nostalgic epeen memories are strong in this one.
You'd think they quit making MMORPGs after the OP left Everquest.
what he said, im an eve player from day one, that's just wrong counting it post 04.
as for crafting, yes there was a couple of titles here and there like uo, swg maybe daoc that had crafting. but if you compare that to the slew of titles on offer (non-wow-esque) today, out of the sheer huge number of titles out today, there are a shitload of ones with absolutely great crafting systems, and the only one of the old games that still holds it on par with newer offerings is eve. i mean heck, fallen earth is eve on earth lol in terms of economy and crafting. vanguard has such complicated and rewarding crafting experience that i wanted to blow my brains out trying to figure it out but once did, was freaking awesome and hugely rewarding. yet please look at lineage 2 in the old category, to get freaking mats you had to kill mobs, and thats that. no other way besides buying from players at over exuberated prices. for leather and cloth in wow you have to kill mobs too but hey wow is trash in my opinion so we won't go there.
http://sigs.griefwatch.net/index.php?kb=LESTUS&name=lestus&template=chaos
Wouldn't that be 'heating' up?
Also i agree on old guild thing, knew a guy that played DAOC and had his own guild. And once a year the whole guild would meet somewhere and hangout for a couple days. Even if they had to fly down/up.
The attitude and mindset of gamers have changed in the past 10 years. They now want 3 things.
1. Quests
2. Shiny things
3. Be able to solo EVERYTHING
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
They wanted these things before, they just didn't get them.
to the editor...
WHAT THE F***!!!!!
Crafting was everything in MMOs of the day, you either made gear that allowed you to survive being hit by a giant hammer or you would fall dead on the ground and they would cut your body up into tiny pieces before your ghostly eyes and sell them off for bounty after they have sucessfully RAPED what was left of your asteral self!
Get your damn facts straight!
Apparently the editor doesn''t remember EQ through Velious, when it comes to crafting. Since he references EQ so often, I would think he would have some basic understanding of crafting in early EQ.