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The Crafting System is Flawed
BarryManilow
Member UncommonPosts: 701
First of all I want to say, I do enjoy this game and I want to see it survive its growing pains. But they (SE) really need to look into the crafting system in this game how it can cripple it.
The system itself is not something you do on the side like it is on other MMOs,. It is a vital feature in this game. Something that is very important for everyone. So vital that in order to really be successful in this game, almost everyone will have to pick up a few or more trades just to keep up with other players.
Why it's so important? Well, for starters, everything you do in the game, from fishing, shooting a bow, swinging a sword, chopping wood, sewing some pants, will cause damage to all your gear that you are wearing. At the moment, it's pretty common to see half naked crafters toiling away because of it.
Also, there is not one generic repair skill. Meaning, your cloth armor needs to be repaired by a weaver, your jewelery by a goldsmith, your weapons by either a carpenter or blacksmith, etc. Now imagine, your gear is damaged while you are in a middle of a dungeon crawl or some raid. Have a few hours so everyone can repair their given gear?
If you want to repair your own gear, well hope you have the tools for each given trade. Then take off each individual piece, because you can't repair it while wearing it. And anyone who has played this game, knows how long it takes to do that.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. You are in a long raid and your gear starts to affect your preformance, so the Leader decides to take a break so people can repair thier gear.
1)You take off each damaged piece of gear you have. Or you can do it one at a time. For my example let's do a few pieces just to prove my point of its flaws. But remember, in game you will probably have to repair everything.
2)You take off your sword. Now you can either switch your job to Blacksmith or find a fellow raid member who is a blacksmith and trade with him your sword and the material you need to repair it. Oh yes, you need to haul repair materials for each individual piece of gear you have. Think you are running out of space now at 10+, with no bank, storage or bags now? Imagine later on in the game. Sorry I digress...
3)Ok let's say you are repairing your own sword. So you switch your job from Gladiator to blacksmith. You look in your list of items to find the sword and click it. Then you start to craft away and you can either succeed or fail your repair attempt.
4)Now it's time to repair your chain armor. Now you have to change your job to armorer or find a fellow player to trade with him to fix each individual piece. And it goes on and on, have to find a goldsmith for your jewelry, etc. And another thing to note, is not just any lowbie crafter can repair your gear. You have to be either equal or above your gear's level to succeed in repairing it. So if you have a 30th level sword, expect to be a 30th+ blacksmith or find one to fix it for you. And that's just for your sword! Want to fix your rings, well work up that goldsmith to 30+ too.
See how this can be a HUGE problem for FFXIV's future. And that's just the repair system in the game. I don't know, and I may be wrong. Because i am not high enough yet to be that extreme. But I am finding it difficult to keep up on my repairs for my 10+ gear which gets pretty pricey and time comsuming. And the lack of space is really starting to hurt me as well. Because with the loot you get from mobs, you also have to worry about carrying loot for crafting and sub combines for other sub combines then you can actually make a given item. Does that make sense?
There are other gripes with the crafting system with sub combines needing high level materials or sub-combines from other trades to make a low level items. It is just a nightmare at the moment.
Comments
While I find the crafting system to be very interesting, the more I read about crafting and mechanics of the game that are impacted by crafting, a little voice in my head wonders how this is a game for casual players. Honestly, there seems to be some serious time investment required to progress very far in the game.
It's like a virual sweat shop but worse because we are actually paying them.
Crafting system ain't so bad. Don't get me wrong, it could use some tweaks, but the biggest problem that needs to be fixed is the interface lag. Waiting and clicking 20 things to start crafting takes too long imo.
Needs some improvements for sure but I don't see it as bad as you say. A few simple fixes would do.
Making the repair kits usable by anyone would solve a big part of the annoyance, the crafter still gets his $ crafting them but we can repair our equip when/where we need it, maybe without the need to remove it. Adjusting decay may be needed aswell.
A search function and AH or even better, an EQ2 broker like system that mixes both with fees for the lazy to walk. This way one can concentrate on his trade and just buy subcomponents from other trades easily and would solve the thing of everybody trying to raise all tradeskills at once and made every equip piece involving 4-5 crafts by themselves (this brings 90% of the problems people have with too high recipe parts/inventory etc...)
As for the inventory space, well don't see many differences with other games out there. Since the start we have 160 avaliable slots (80 personal, 80 our retainer/bank) that's a lot more than the usual mmorpg give us at start. The problem is the same people have with tradeskills:
-Levelling ALL tradeskilss+ gathering at once = bags too full. Ttrue here, true in all games.
Sure, there are a few (or a lot of ) flaws and things to tweak here and there but I don't see the system beyond repair or needing a major overhaul.
I am in a linkshell with a few other crafters, we do our own craft and give the subcombines to other crafters needing them. The system with an easy way to find other craft's subs on the market works pretty well, and more entertaining than a huge % of mmorpgs out there for people who enjoy playing crafting.
The lag with the interface is big flaw though.
The reliance on higher level crafts isn't a design mistake! It's meant to force interaction with others who want to want craft.
What they should really do is lower the skill points a bit to level crafting. It is rediculously long.
Forcing interaction with multiple crafter to repair your gear is definitely a design mistake. Forcing you to do anything is a design mistake in an MMO if you ask me.
Just a BTW, Vanguard has had a similar and more well put together crafting system that values crafting over bought or found gear for years now. As well as seperate and independent levels for crafting from adventuring (don't have to fight mobs to level up crafting), as well as a better harvesting system (can harvest together for better rewards). Just saying if you see crafting or harvesting as a plus in this game, it's already been done better elsewhere.
The repair kits are a great idea. I think they could lower the damage your gear takes considering quite a few pieces are going to be used for multiple classes.
An AH would be nice. I could deal with the market wards but an AH would be great.
I will have to disagree with you big time on the inventory space not being a problem. Sure 160 slots seems like a lot when compared to most other mmorpgs, but we all know this isn't that. The problem is not only do we have numerous components needed to craft items, but some of the base materials like say Moko Grass for instance, doesn't just drop as Moko Grass. You get Moko Grass+1, Moko Grass+2, and the same with various other components. This starts to stack up. And they sit for a while too because they are rarer drops. Then the interdependence of the crafts means most people that even want to bother with crafting are going to either pick some simple craft like Weaving that isn't as dependent on other crafts, or they are going to have multiple crafting classes and that's just going to add to more space being used. Then you have the other armor/weapons for other classes that we might be switching between. We need a Mog House or a bank or something. 160 isn't cutting it at lower ranks, I can only imagine how bad it will be when I get my crafting up higher and I'm crafting not only higher rank items but lower rank items as well. And that's just assuming you are crafting for profit. If you are in a linkshell/company working together you might be holding mats to craft items for other friends.
Sure in other games if you're doing all crafts there is a way to work around the inventory issue. This game there isn't. Unless you want to buy two accounts or have someone you can trust transfer items over to another character when you need to. We can have multiple characters and each with either one or multiple retainers (which you have to pay extra for), but we have NO mail system. I've got two characters, two retainers (one each character), and I'm having inventory issues.
Maybe the developers for Vanguard actually spent more than 3 minutes in their own game. It's rather obvious the ones working on this one didn't.
Lol! It's tickles me how frustrated people get over stuff they can't fix themselves. You want nice things? Better know someone who can help you maintain them or learn how to fix them yourself. It's not flawed, just a new direction away from the one click repair you constantly see in other MMORPGs. Yeah, failure is common, so what? You're going to fail from time to time. What else can you possibly spend gil on? You're going to have to use it even in endgame. Either hire someone good to repair it or get your everyday ameteur to make it worse. If you don't like other people touching your stuff, get better yourself. Nobody gets a certification in carpentry overnight, just put some work into it. Get gil, buy materials (or leve with provisions if you have some for the day), craft, pass or fail (you still get points either way), either use or sell your crafts, make more gil, try again. That's just how it is, otherwise everyone would be running around in full suits of iron armor...
I think they need to take a look at some of these crafting classes and what they can make. For instance with only having Weaving I was able to make pretty much a full set of gear (minus accessories and a few other pieces).
(Weaving recipe list)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/guide/recipe.html?classId=F&rankId=1
Blacksmithing I can hardly make anything without other crafts. If I want to make any weapons I need components from woodworking, tailoring, alchemy, leatherworking. I can't even make some crappy axe out of just metal. I can make some fish hooks and needles though. Yay me.
(Blacksmithing recipe list)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/guide/recipe.html?classId=B&rankId=1
First of all, there are no raids that I know of so the nightmare scenario you describe isn't likely to happen.
Second, if there were raids, what you describe would encourage groups to bring along a full time crafter for repairs. That would be pretty cool if you ask me and allow crafters to participate in raids. But again, there are no raids that we know of.
I enjoyed Vanguard's crafting system, but I can't agree with you on the forced interaction being a mistake. No piece of gear lasts forever unless it's unused, and people are going to wear out their gear, hence there will always be a place for those who repair gear. The crafts won't go to waste and fade away in obscurity when endgame comes, but if you want nice things, find a way to maintain it. I think Mortal Online had an awesome crafting system. Very open ended, but once you're dead, your stuff is typically gone. Rather than worrying about what you have, know people who can aid in replacing it. I think that is the open-ended factor they are trying to get across in FFXIV as well. Anyone can kill mobs with weapons, some better than others, but without the crafters providing that weapon to them, they are powerless. Harvesters get materials, crafters use those materials, adventurers buy what those materials make, repairs cost money, adventurers make money, and so on. It would be nice to be solely independent, but that would take a lot of work in a game like this.
Loved Vanguard, but the glitches drove me away over time. I came back to it and it was much better, but I got immersed in CoH and left. Glad you brought up Vanguard, wonderful example. I just wish I was around long enough to get my own house, or at least participate in building one...
this makes you true, interact with crafters. no one said you gave to repair your gear from a crafter all the time. there is Repair Vendor for that. crafters get exp for repairing your goods which i haven't seen in a any mmorpg. the system can use a little noticication when things are broken but if thats all in all then thats a sweet system.
Ah yes, the repair vendor. Love them! They can't get your things back to mint condition so you can resell them in the bazaar, but I think that's the point.
It does tell you when your gear needs repair it just doesn't tell you which piece is broken! Which does piss me off :P.
It boggles my mind that people pay money for games they know will be bad. I have not payed for an MMO for a little bit now because I knew they would be bad. Don't even give them the luxery of your box sale. Open beta showed how bad this game was, and all you complaining still bought it.
Then there's the wierd stuff, like I combined 6 sea sand and did a crappy job and got a buncha fine sand, then I combined 6 sea sand and had like 186 quality...it made a single lugworm. I created life! Then I sold it to the merchant for 1 gill cause I didn't want to go fishing that day.
I also find it unbelievable that people would defend the systems in this game by saying things like "it's meant to force {insert time-sink system here]". Any system that intentionally decides what is fun for you do to at a certain time instead of letting the player decide it for themselves is obviously laying the foundation for it's own agenda.
If a developer would make things fun to do in the first place they wouldn't need tricks and gimmicks to "force" people into doing actions that they wouldn't normally choose to do in the natural course of the game.
I have an overwhelming urge to say "BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME". Hopefully there are some folks old enough to get the reference.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
LMAO @ Field of Dreams reference.
Trying to force interaction in that way is a mistake. It will simply lead to the majority of the players to feel they "Need" to pick up the crafting skills on top of what they enjoy. Which of course leads to people feeling the grind pressing down on them. Even back in UO most people got enough crafting skill to repair there own armor and only went to full time crafters for important pieces that needed to be repaired, things you could not afford to lose max durability on.
The attempt to force interaction in this manner has been tried many times and each instance in which it was tried the experiment failed to deliver the desired results. In the end it was always addressed and the attempt to force interaction in this manner was removed in some way. Some times it was repairable and other times not so much.
The question will be, can FFXIV correct this mistake in a way that does not have a negative impact on the game, meaning can they fix it and still leave crafting viable and seemingly more than an after thought.
It may not seem like it but it will be hard to remove the elements that attempt to force interaction in this way without leaving crafting as a whole in the lurch.
The problem right now is that item degredation (particularly weaponry) is way too harsh. It takes like only 2 hours for you 100% dur. weapon to degrade to 10% at around lvl 20.
So at the the very least, it is reccommended you raise a tradeskill to earn enough to keep up with repairs, or a useful tradeskill (carp/Conj) so you can field-repair your stuff when out adventuring in the world.
The problem arises when a class like Archer and Pug utilizes different weaponry from many different crafts...
You have to assume there are raids or large scale battles or what else is there to a PvE MMO...crafting and grinding on rats? Also, how long does it take you to repair your gear IF you repair it yourself? And I don't mean running to the city and have that npc repairing it to 75% for a select few pieces. My guess its at least 5 minutes or more. Now times that by the number of players in your raid or even group of 10 or so. And if you have a "main" Crafter fixing everyone's gear... Now we are adding even more time because trading items to other players is VERY time comsuming. Not sure if it's lag or working as designed. Either way it's bad.
It's not fun for me. It gets old very fast. Hopefully, the PS3 crowd will force SE to do something to make this game more casual friendly because atm this is very frustrating.