I really hope that gamers can make things right again , don´t forget it only takes some experience in a person lifetime .
That can radically alter a person perspectief of things , its not that youth don´t have the energy or motivation for it .
Its more that they are supressing themselfs more often then not .
Or focusing there energy in mindless nintendo vs sega war ... (both were japanese products anyway)
Its more I do not mean it negative , Its like somehow they simply blocked in a world were nobody understands them .
When you do understand them , they go into a total denial , cause of the I am special and a Individual .
In eastern society everybody is a sheep till they proof themself be able to get out from the masses .
So everybody did had the same chances , but if you don´t utilise it you are still a sheep and accept it .
Thats one of the reason grind is normal for those games , its what everybody else does , till you can find a way to seperate yourself .
But on the otherside , making cooperation much smoother and pleasant .
So ideas has to be really proven with logical arguments and facts or ground base founded .
Currently in here (western world where I also belong) its more the right of the strongest , the one who can shout the loudest or be the most ignorant . if that fails backstab is always a option .
Logic in most cases are irrelevant , cause excuses or side steps are easier found .
Dog ate my home work cases .
Am I the only one who finds reading the way this guy writes horribly uncomfortable? He might have something good to say, but his typing style and formatting hurt my eyes too much to read it.
To be honest, Korean MMOs have far too much of a grind as a whole. I do like how Archeage is coming together, but that could still be a massive drawback to it, games like lineage 2 are kinda shitty in terms of that because of the huge distances of progress barriers and backwards MMO mechanics. I honestly don't think any one of those has a thing on WoW or most MMOs with the sole exception of Archeage looking to be a very nice fresh sandbox.
Also, it's a little silly to knock Western RPGs for following the formula that has the majority of all possible MMO game players, I don't mean in sheer numbers, that would be very hard to concretely prove one way or another towards Eastern versus western, but the style of the games themselves speak for what's successful and what can seem to really hold people in, and it's average grind, instanced PvP, Reasonable instanced raids and Smooth progression to the endgame.
Over the years I've tried a number of Korean/Asian MMO's and none of them have really stuck. (lineage 1/2 about 6 mnonths each).
But that's OK, outside of DAOC, WOW and EVE not many western MMO's have stuck either.
I'm certainly willing to try any of the games in the OP (well, Terra and Archage for sure) if they'll bring me a fresh new MMO experience as I suffer from standard western MMO design burnout.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In asian market stuff like political Ideology is more likely to happen , since there pvp and gameplay system is more based on sacrifice honor and suffering for the greater good ..
There was definitely some of that in Lineage 2.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
GW2 is almost korean its very influenced by KOREAN mmo's not only in looks also in gameplay.
Wut?
Ive seen a few times friend playing GW1 and thought it was a korean game lol. Ive not play it myself but it dont look very western. But i also dont like it and becouse i dont like most korean games maybe thats why i said its korean influenced hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
GW2 is almost korean its very influenced by KOREAN mmo's not only in looks also in gameplay.
Wut?
Ive seen a few times friend playing GW1 and thought it was a korean game lol. Ive not play it myself but it dont look very western. But i also dont like it and becouse i dont like most korean games maybe thats why i said its korean influenced hehe.
What does that mean? What Korean stereotype are you saying here?
That you dont like them thats another discusion i dont like most eather but western mmo's are few compare to korean mmo's and there influence.
? I never said I didn't like them.
Besides that, I doubt whether they dominated the whole MMO scene for the past 7-8 years.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Also, technologically speaking (as far as MMOs goes), they aren't more advanced. Vindictus uses Valve's Source Engine, TERA Unreal 3 Engine, ArchAge uses Crytek 2 Engine, Blade&Soul also uses Unreal 3 Engine. They're using the same tools as western developers, but again, they face a larger market and MUST make something different to be truly succesfull in the Korean market.
Well, it seems like they manage to achieve more within the limitations of the engines.
Millions already played lineage1 (1998 first launched)while whole western game community thought EQ was biggest mmoprg back then lineage had around 2000 3million subscribers and in 2008 still almost 1million played lineage.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
What korean MMOs seem to be doing is adopting more western values in the way games are being made. "Westernization" doesn't start at building these games for the western market, they start with core western values that you find in a lot of those kinds of MMORPGs, like decreased time for grinding. Whereas games like FFXI and Lineage 2 are very much the epitome of eastern gameplay thus far, you see the styles changing rapidly with each new Eastern released game. I guess its not just BioWare that decided to use WoW as a "touchstone".
That being said, surpassing the West will all depend on how well the games are received. While TERA looks nice, it is ultimately Phantasy Star Universe with an open world and a fantasy setting. No game coming out will have the kind of reactive combat that DCUO was able to achieve, not Vindictus, not TERA, not GW2. Say what you will about it, but it is by far the most hands-on combat system to date in an MMO.
While Archage is really the only game on the list that really has me interested, I can't help but wonder how this game will fare overall and whether it will still be considered something that would surpass a western MMO when Bethesda currently has an MMO in the works fabled to be an MMO version of TES, or Interplays (possible) Fallout MMO.
Not that it matters at the end of the day. If a game is fun, I'll play it. Thats the kind of gamer I am, and there is no need for a west - east rivalry or Korean games "surpassing" Western games in any form as games are meant for entertainment and on my plate, I have room regardless of where that game may come from.
Soon, when gaming is as big or bigger than religion, wars will not be fought in the name of a certain god, but in the name of "World of Warstar XIX" and "Lineage 31".
Don't believe me? I'm going to the future again next Tuesday, come with me.
Throughout the years there have been memorable MMORPG's coming from Korea, like Lineage 1 and 2 and Aion. Nothing that was better than western MMORPG's though. But after looking at the list of upcoming MMORPG's and seeing the ones that originate from Korea, I'm starting to wonder if the real jump forwards in MMORPG progression are coming from Korea.
Reason for that being a number of impressive MMO's that seem to be upcoming.
TERA looks graphically great, better than most other MMO's, it has an inventive different combat system, tries to experiment with a political system, and it appears to have a seamless world - with that kind of graphics - that's far bigger than Rift and very likely even WoW.
ArcheAge just blew me completely away, with its phenomenal graphics, environmental effects and all kinds of sandbox features that western MMO companies dare not try to risk burning their fingers on. I recommend everyone to look at the footage, it'll leave you dumbfounded and speechless in awe.
Vindictus was maybe not a true MMORPG, but it had the best unconventional, environmental and situational combat that I've seen. It was maybe more an MORPG, but it had features that one'd wish an MMORPG would have.
Blade & Soul is another Korean MMORPG that's looking good and seems to bring its own brand of MMORPG.
And those are only the ones I know of, I read some glimpses of other Korean MMO's as well.
Thing is, it looks like the Korean developers are far more ambitious and willing to risk stepping away from traditional MMO mechanics and try out new ideas and features than western MMO companies are. Also, it looks like they might advance further technologically than their western counterparts: vastly larger seamless worlds wit highly detailed graphics and different, new mechanics thrown in the mix as well.
In fact, if this and next year wouldn't have such a strong lineup, I'd have thought the Korean MMO's to be superior already: would TERA, ArcheAge and Blade & Soul have been released in any other year, like in 2010, 2009 or 2008 or so, I'd have given them a high chance that they would've taken the MMO market by storm (well, maybe not WoW ofc), leaving all the western MMORPG's behind.
However, there's a GW2, SWTOR, The Secret World, the already released Rift, Firefall and World of Darkness as the strong western titles, each with their own unique features and technological prowess.
It doesn't change the fact though that the Korean MMORPG industry is strong, and it looks like its MMO companies are even growing stronger and progressing further. Which is an achievement, considering that it's just one relatively small country.
Great post Mavrick; I'd like to add a little to that....
I see a few dynamics in Eastern MMORPGs that keep it closer to the traditional MMORPG model than the direction that Western MMOs have gone.
Group vs Solo Play - Traditional MMORPGs were built around communities. In Eastern MMOs (Like Traditional MMOs) the loot tables and encounters are geared with the collective or group in mind.....almost requiring a group or guild to level at a good rate, gear up, and take on endgame content.
Modern Western MMOs have catered to a more "individual" spirit that allows for a person to experience more content on a solo basis or at their own pace with adhoc groups (WOW's dungeon finder). From a traditional MMORPG gamer's perspective, games like WOW / RIFT / LOTRO / ETC. give more of a Co-Op RPG experience than a true virtual world.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages......but the Eastern MMO might have an easier time calling back some of those old MMORPG mechanics (Arch Age) because the dynamics are still more intuned with the old spirit of MMORPGs.
Gaming more in tune with culture - Gaming in the Eastern market is much more a part of their culture than it is in the Western market. In the West, games (much like cartoons) are viewed as things kids do or watch. It's a child's form of entertainment, and any adult engaging in said form of entertainment is viewed as childish or immature.....which hurts your potential market base.
In the East, games are advertised on coke cans, sides of busses, billboards, TV programs in prime time Television hours, etc. It's not taboo for an adult to engage in video games (like cartoons) and probably has a larger potential market in the East than it does in the West.
Korean games always LOOK good, but have all the depth and immersion of a saucer of water. Always been the case and always will be. The ones I've tried were bland, much the same as each other and weren't worth the time spent downloading them.
Lineage is utter crappage. I rate it a 1. And Lineage 2 is even worse. I havent tried Aion, but those in RL I have talked to really think Aion is a waste of money = crappage too.
Bah. Korean MMO's will NEVER surpass the western MMO's. Never.
I have looked over many MMO's from both Korea and of course our country the US. I've notice my highly interest into the Korean MMO market as I'm interested in something new in experience. World of Warcraft may be the best here, but I'm not all that interested in it at all I'm afraid. I love the exploration and customization and the other things that makes it great, but something new calls my spirit and here I am highly excited for some Korean MMO's. Blade & Soul cought my most attention as I love how their art style stands out from many MMO's (a big importance for me is the art style), gameplay wise is different and I'm willing to try as it also has some unique aspects like gliding through the air and jumping across landscapes in a stunt like action (that's a win over for me in this case). I'm also highly interested in Guild Wars 2, TERA, Soulworker, Kingdom Under Fire 2 (this is now a Strategy MMORPG which totally creates it's own MMO genre and looks amazing!!! A sure contender to any MMO I've seen!!!), Cabal 2, XAOC Online, Phantasy Star Online 2, Bounty Hounds Online....the list goes on. BUT these are the one's I'm mostly curious about AND WILL PLAY!!!
When did MMORPG development become a competition between countries? I really could care less if the developer is 'Merican, Mexican, Moroccan, Martian or Mongol. If the game is interesting, I want to play it. Let them worry about international monetary conversion rates (assuming I choose to give them money).
The big thing that other development communities already bring to the MMORPG marketplace is a focus on different mythologies and different world views than the Western tradition. I see people complaining on these forums about how bored they've gotten with fantasy built in the European tradition. But when a developer offers them a game build on non-Western concepts, they complain in posts like this.
I'd say, simply evaluate the games based on what value you see them to have. Then enjoy or avoid as necessary. Translation dates back to whenever a tribe encountered others that spoke differently. Even Google can translate enough to make the most obscure language understandable to a linguophobe like me (absolutely zero skill with foreign languages).
Besides, translating game text gives those Language Arts graduates something to do.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Koreans don't make MMO's. I am not sure what the word is for what they make, but they aren't MMO's. My skin crawls just thinking about it, thanks for bringing it up.
Koreans don't make MMO's. I am not sure what the word is for what they make, but they aren't MMO's. My skin crawls just thinking about it, thanks for bringing it up.
Some of the largest team-based content in online gaming is in Korean Massively Multiplayer Online games, both PvE and PvP, so it would be interesting to read why you feel they fit the category less than other games do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Okay, as much as I love my Korean homies, their games are crap and probably won't ever catch on in the west. Because, as I'm sure someone has pointed out already, Korean Grinders are really just glorified chat rooms. They're purely social and superficial, with the actual game as a sort of sideshow to the main event of the players' online social lives.
How this terrible taste in games reconciles with their excellent choice of a national sport we will never know.
Koreans don't make MMO's. I am not sure what the word is for what they make, but they aren't MMO's. My skin crawls just thinking about it, thanks for bringing it up.
Some of the largest team-based content in online gaming is in Korean Massively Multiplayer Online games, both PvE and PvP, so it would be interesting to read why you feel they fit the category less than other games do.
You can wrap a ribbon around a turd, doesn;t make it less than a turd.
I have never ever played an Asian/Korean mmo that I liked or enjoyed.
Koreans don't make MMO's. I am not sure what the word is for what they make, but they aren't MMO's. My skin crawls just thinking about it, thanks for bringing it up.
Some of the largest team-based content in online gaming is in Korean Massively Multiplayer Online games, both PvE and PvP, so it would be interesting to read why you feel they fit the category less than other games do.
You can wrap a ribbon around a turd, doesn;t make it less than a turd.
I have never ever played an Asian/Korean mmo that I liked or enjoyed.
Their all junk.
Point taken.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Am I the only one who finds reading the way this guy writes horribly uncomfortable? He might have something good to say, but his typing style and formatting hurt my eyes too much to read it.
To be honest, Korean MMOs have far too much of a grind as a whole. I do like how Archeage is coming together, but that could still be a massive drawback to it, games like lineage 2 are kinda shitty in terms of that because of the huge distances of progress barriers and backwards MMO mechanics. I honestly don't think any one of those has a thing on WoW or most MMOs with the sole exception of Archeage looking to be a very nice fresh sandbox.
Also, it's a little silly to knock Western RPGs for following the formula that has the majority of all possible MMO game players, I don't mean in sheer numbers, that would be very hard to concretely prove one way or another towards Eastern versus western, but the style of the games themselves speak for what's successful and what can seem to really hold people in, and it's average grind, instanced PvP, Reasonable instanced raids and Smooth progression to the endgame.
Over the years I've tried a number of Korean/Asian MMO's and none of them have really stuck. (lineage 1/2 about 6 mnonths each).
But that's OK, outside of DAOC, WOW and EVE not many western MMO's have stuck either.
I'm certainly willing to try any of the games in the OP (well, Terra and Archage for sure) if they'll bring me a fresh new MMO experience as I suffer from standard western MMO design burnout.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't really think so. TERA has almost fallen off my radar. ArchAge looks good. We will see.
My theme song.
There was definitely some of that in Lineage 2.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ive seen a few times friend playing GW1 and thought it was a korean game lol. Ive not play it myself but it dont look very western. But i also dont like it and becouse i dont like most korean games maybe thats why i said its korean influenced hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Starting? They were always better.
What does that mean? What Korean stereotype are you saying here?
Millions already played lineage1 (1998 first launched)while whole western game community thought EQ was biggest mmoprg back then lineage had around 2000 3million subscribers and in 2008 still almost 1million played lineage.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
What korean MMOs seem to be doing is adopting more western values in the way games are being made. "Westernization" doesn't start at building these games for the western market, they start with core western values that you find in a lot of those kinds of MMORPGs, like decreased time for grinding. Whereas games like FFXI and Lineage 2 are very much the epitome of eastern gameplay thus far, you see the styles changing rapidly with each new Eastern released game. I guess its not just BioWare that decided to use WoW as a "touchstone".
That being said, surpassing the West will all depend on how well the games are received. While TERA looks nice, it is ultimately Phantasy Star Universe with an open world and a fantasy setting. No game coming out will have the kind of reactive combat that DCUO was able to achieve, not Vindictus, not TERA, not GW2. Say what you will about it, but it is by far the most hands-on combat system to date in an MMO.
While Archage is really the only game on the list that really has me interested, I can't help but wonder how this game will fare overall and whether it will still be considered something that would surpass a western MMO when Bethesda currently has an MMO in the works fabled to be an MMO version of TES, or Interplays (possible) Fallout MMO.
Not that it matters at the end of the day. If a game is fun, I'll play it. Thats the kind of gamer I am, and there is no need for a west - east rivalry or Korean games "surpassing" Western games in any form as games are meant for entertainment and on my plate, I have room regardless of where that game may come from.
That's pretty much what everyone should base the game on right? Do you enjoy it.
Soon, when gaming is as big or bigger than religion, wars will not be fought in the name of a certain god, but in the name of "World of Warstar XIX" and "Lineage 31".
Don't believe me? I'm going to the future again next Tuesday, come with me.
Great post Mavrick; I'd like to add a little to that....
I see a few dynamics in Eastern MMORPGs that keep it closer to the traditional MMORPG model than the direction that Western MMOs have gone.
Group vs Solo Play - Traditional MMORPGs were built around communities. In Eastern MMOs (Like Traditional MMOs) the loot tables and encounters are geared with the collective or group in mind.....almost requiring a group or guild to level at a good rate, gear up, and take on endgame content.
Modern Western MMOs have catered to a more "individual" spirit that allows for a person to experience more content on a solo basis or at their own pace with adhoc groups (WOW's dungeon finder). From a traditional MMORPG gamer's perspective, games like WOW / RIFT / LOTRO / ETC. give more of a Co-Op RPG experience than a true virtual world.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages......but the Eastern MMO might have an easier time calling back some of those old MMORPG mechanics (Arch Age) because the dynamics are still more intuned with the old spirit of MMORPGs.
Gaming more in tune with culture - Gaming in the Eastern market is much more a part of their culture than it is in the Western market. In the West, games (much like cartoons) are viewed as things kids do or watch. It's a child's form of entertainment, and any adult engaging in said form of entertainment is viewed as childish or immature.....which hurts your potential market base.
In the East, games are advertised on coke cans, sides of busses, billboards, TV programs in prime time Television hours, etc. It's not taboo for an adult to engage in video games (like cartoons) and probably has a larger potential market in the East than it does in the West.
Korean games always LOOK good, but have all the depth and immersion of a saucer of water. Always been the case and always will be. The ones I've tried were bland, much the same as each other and weren't worth the time spent downloading them.
There's something about foregin (Korean or not) MMO's that just make me want to vomit when I see them.
Perhaps I'm being too narrow minded, or maybe it's just my personal taste.
Lineage is utter crappage. I rate it a 1. And Lineage 2 is even worse. I havent tried Aion, but those in RL I have talked to really think Aion is a waste of money = crappage too.
Bah. Korean MMO's will NEVER surpass the western MMO's. Never.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I have looked over many MMO's from both Korea and of course our country the US. I've notice my highly interest into the Korean MMO market as I'm interested in something new in experience. World of Warcraft may be the best here, but I'm not all that interested in it at all I'm afraid. I love the exploration and customization and the other things that makes it great, but something new calls my spirit and here I am highly excited for some Korean MMO's. Blade & Soul cought my most attention as I love how their art style stands out from many MMO's (a big importance for me is the art style), gameplay wise is different and I'm willing to try as it also has some unique aspects like gliding through the air and jumping across landscapes in a stunt like action (that's a win over for me in this case). I'm also highly interested in Guild Wars 2, TERA, Soulworker, Kingdom Under Fire 2 (this is now a Strategy MMORPG which totally creates it's own MMO genre and looks amazing!!! A sure contender to any MMO I've seen!!!), Cabal 2, XAOC Online, Phantasy Star Online 2, Bounty Hounds Online....the list goes on. BUT these are the one's I'm mostly curious about AND WILL PLAY!!!
I wouldnt play an asian MMO even if my life was at stake...
they can keep their 15-years-old gameplay mechanics and grind for the sake of grinding for themselves.
above average graphics a good game dont make, and asian devs seem to fail catastrophically at everything but graphics.
their shitty games look gorgeous, I'll give them that. but they still are shit.
When did MMORPG development become a competition between countries? I really could care less if the developer is 'Merican, Mexican, Moroccan, Martian or Mongol. If the game is interesting, I want to play it. Let them worry about international monetary conversion rates (assuming I choose to give them money).
The big thing that other development communities already bring to the MMORPG marketplace is a focus on different mythologies and different world views than the Western tradition. I see people complaining on these forums about how bored they've gotten with fantasy built in the European tradition. But when a developer offers them a game build on non-Western concepts, they complain in posts like this.
I'd say, simply evaluate the games based on what value you see them to have. Then enjoy or avoid as necessary. Translation dates back to whenever a tribe encountered others that spoke differently. Even Google can translate enough to make the most obscure language understandable to a linguophobe like me (absolutely zero skill with foreign languages).
Besides, translating game text gives those Language Arts graduates something to do.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Koreans don't make MMO's. I am not sure what the word is for what they make, but they aren't MMO's. My skin crawls just thinking about it, thanks for bringing it up.
Some of the largest team-based content in online gaming is in Korean Massively Multiplayer Online games, both PvE and PvP, so it would be interesting to read why you feel they fit the category less than other games do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Korea #1!
Okay, as much as I love my Korean homies, their games are crap and probably won't ever catch on in the west. Because, as I'm sure someone has pointed out already, Korean Grinders are really just glorified chat rooms. They're purely social and superficial, with the actual game as a sort of sideshow to the main event of the players' online social lives.
How this terrible taste in games reconciles with their excellent choice of a national sport we will never know.
You can wrap a ribbon around a turd, doesn;t make it less than a turd.
I have never ever played an Asian/Korean mmo that I liked or enjoyed.
Their all junk.
Point taken.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Few exceptions only serve to enforce the rule in this case. 90% of Korean MMOs are basically c/p schlock, F2P included.