I remember when endgame wasn't even a concept. When 'maxing out' your character would take years to accomplish. When the day to day things you did in the game didn't feel irrelevant if you weren't 'maxed out'.
What do you mean remember when, end game is still a bad thing in mmos today. If people find raiding as the ultimate end game then this genre seriously has no hope.
I remember when endgame wasn't even a concept. When 'maxing out' your character would take years to accomplish. When the day to day things you did in the game didn't feel irrelevant if you weren't 'maxed out'.
true.
HONESTLY? I started with Meridian, Everquest and UO and NeverEver made it into the Endgame because I simply had not that much time as a young Kid.
My first Endgame was World of Warcraft. And I didnt even get into BWL (was an addon wasnt it? cant remember) we just raided and wiped MC. Yep and for some reason it was the only "cool" Endgame back there in 2005 ever since. All the other MMOs which came and even the WoW-Addons - all the Endgame were sucky as hell and left you with a feeling of "duh, thats it? what a shame. gonna twink 1 or 2 and then quit my sub"
Meh. Endgame is the toughest Challenge for all the Devs out there, believe me.
I've been reading posts that talk about how people aren't concerned with the bulk of an MMO, rather, they are only interested in how good the "end game" is. This is incredibly depressing.
When MMOs were originally conceived, the idea of End Game was a bane that developers worked to eliminate. This is what gave rise to increasingly difficult progression, skill-based systems that prevented characters from ever "maxing out", and a whole pile of other features that have been lost in modern MMOs.
If a player reached the end of the game, it meant that they were playing faster than the devs could create content. The whole idea of MMOs were that they were ongoing worlds in which you lived and carried out your adventures. You didn't reach the end, because there wasn't supposed to be one!
MMOs were the only break from the otherwise repetitious gameplay found in other games (enter map, kill everything, get points, rinse, repeat).
I think its time that the online gaming community split into 2 groups; the MMO-Sports, where players simply enter combat and compete with one another, and MMO-Worlds, where players create rich characters and live out exciting lives in an ongoing, interesting world.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I started playing DAoC in 2002 and RvR was the end game. People most certainly reached level 50, although it took a long time. I get what you're saying though and I agree. It's just that the only two old school MMO's I played was DAoC and SWG and that was years ago. I could max out a character in SWG in a few days, but there wasn't really any endgame. Then again, it WAS a sandbox and I found it fun.
I've been reading posts that talk about how people aren't concerned with the bulk of an MMO, rather, they are only interested in how good the "end game" is. This is incredibly depressing.
When MMOs were originally conceived, the idea of End Game was a bane that developers worked to eliminate. This is what gave rise to increasingly difficult progression, skill-based systems that prevented characters from ever "maxing out", and a whole pile of other features that have been lost in modern MMOs.
If a player reached the end of the game, it meant that they were playing faster than the devs could create content. The whole idea of MMOs were that they were ongoing worlds in which you lived and carried out your adventures. You didn't reach the end, because there wasn't supposed to be one!
MMOs were the only break from the otherwise repetitious gameplay found in other games (enter map, kill everything, get points, rinse, repeat).
I think its time that the online gaming community split into 2 groups; the MMO-Sports, where players simply enter combat and compete with one another, and MMO-Worlds, where players create rich characters and live out exciting lives in an ongoing, interesting world.
Remember when there was no "end game content" so to say? Good times.
I agree. I don't really have an issue with there being content once max level is achieved, but I don't like how recent games have become so focused on it.
Whatever happened to the "dicking around" content?
I'm currently trudging through WoW, and I noticed that if I want to take a break from dungeons/quests/etc I don't have anything to do. I know that's a complaint of many that don't agree with the 'themeparkiness' of it, but some faffing about content would fit into the WoW model pretty easily, I think.
I agree. I don't really have an issue with there being content once max level is achieved, but I don't like how recent games have become so focused on it.
Whatever happened to the "dicking around" content?
I'm currently trudging through WoW, and I noticed that if I want to take a break from dungeons/quests/etc I don't have anything to do. I know that's a complaint of many that don't agree with the 'themeparkiness' of it, but some faffing about content would fit into the WoW model pretty easily, I think.
"Dicking around content" is exactly it (I like that term because I use it). Gathering places, social places (example - Fallen Earth has like a Casino or something I think)..things that aren't just focused on capping and questing. I might as well play a single player which they've become anyway. I want the old RPG aspect back in my MMORPGS. So many things you can do with housing though in the open world if someone would just put it in.
Why can't we have player run businesses? The fun part about UO was there was no auction house. You would find your favorite player owned vendors, mark em, and use em when needed hoping they had some good stuff on em.
I agree. I don't really have an issue with there being content once max level is achieved, but I don't like how recent games have become so focused on it.
Whatever happened to the "dicking around" content?
I'm currently trudging through WoW, and I noticed that if I want to take a break from dungeons/quests/etc I don't have anything to do. I know that's a complaint of many that don't agree with the 'themeparkiness' of it, but some faffing about content would fit into the WoW model pretty easily, I think.
"Dicking around content" is exactly it (I like that term because I use it). Gathering places, social places (example - Fallen Earth has like a Casino or something I think)..things that aren't just focused on capping and questing. I might as well play a single player which they've become anyway. I want the old RPG aspect back in my MMORPGS. So many things you can do with housing though in the open world if someone would just put it in.
Why can't we have player run businesses? The fun part about UO was there was no auction house. You would find your favorite player owned vendors, mark em, and use em when needed hoping they had some good stuff on em.
Not being an "old timer" like you guys I still agree with the fact that you should have "dicking around content" it was one of the things I liked about Fallen Earth that you could go to a bar/casino and gamble with in game money on the slot machines, the problem was they never expanded the feature to include Craps, Roulette, Poker tables and Strippers etc... I like that UO had chess boards in taverns and the fact that SWG had entertainers in the cantinas. This plus many non combat classes for me would be far better than just rush to level cap and Raid but it seems people love that concept and the gaming companies are supplying it. The only themepark games that attempted to add lots of fluff activities were EQ2, LotRO and Vanguard with housing, hobbies, collections etc...
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I agree with the op. It is a sad development where I feel left out. I mean, I love the addition of more story. But MMOs are less and less believable worlds. I guess we are a dying breed of gamers who rather want to immerse themselves in a world than just playing quests like an esports job.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It was all about get to level cap asap and start raiding, whatever happend to the journey?
It's really sad that the industry is taking this extremly boring and easy way out to get extra cash.
I really miss the journey.
I've been shouting this for the past 2 years. I hope MMOs will eventually try something new - and be successful. I used to love raiding but when that is all it is, over and over, it becomes boring.
They make amazing end game content for the dedicated raiders but no ground-breaking content for players with other interests. End game raiding is what sells now.
I've been reading posts that talk about how people aren't concerned with the bulk of an MMO, rather, they are only interested in how good the "end game" is. This is incredibly depressing.
When MMOs were originally conceived, the idea of End Game was a bane that developers worked to eliminate. This is what gave rise to increasingly difficult progression, skill-based systems that prevented characters from ever "maxing out", and a whole pile of other features that have been lost in modern MMOs.
If a player reached the end of the game, it meant that they were playing faster than the devs could create content. The whole idea of MMOs were that they were ongoing worlds in which you lived and carried out your adventures. You didn't reach the end, because there wasn't supposed to be one!
MMOs were the only break from the otherwise repetitious gameplay found in other games (enter map, kill everything, get points, rinse, repeat).
I think its time that the online gaming community split into 2 groups; the MMO-Sports, where players simply enter combat and compete with one another, and MMO-Worlds, where players create rich characters and live out exciting lives in an ongoing, interesting world.
Agreed, repeating the same instances over and overis boring.
But the funny thing is that they actually could invent interesting endgame content, not just doing a few dungeons and raids over and over.
AoCs guildcity is a good example of something that could be very fun if you put some work into it. Make the city a real city with stores, npcs, inns and playerhousing. Add mines and farms outside. Let the guild mint their own coins and let the guildmaster be a king in a small city state. Add some PvP, people could do that for a long time, working together for a common goal, and hold banquets and tournaments with other guilds in their own city.
There are countless other stuff they could add if they want us to actually get into the endgame instead of the oldway. Letting the players themselves create some stuff at endgame and going more to a sandbox game when the content is bested would be fun.
But instead is my only options raiding, PvP and *shudder* daily quests.
Like others stated i see the journey way more important, focus on that, end game is busy work to me.
Do this...uh over and over until we can get something out. You got to the end quicker then we expected.
In my opinoin a game that puts the point on end-game and tries and get you there as fast as possible is a bad idea, thats not the point why i'm playing the game, i don't want a quick summary of act 1, fly through act 2 just to sit at act 3 and repeat. End-game is exactly as it sounds to me, this is the end of the game, if i'm here, i'm in waiting mode. Sure i can nudge my character a little more to become closer to elite mode but so what? Until the next expansion comes out and continues the story that gear only makes whats there easier. This is a flawed idea in my opinion. Make the journey worth it, have end game interesting so i don't leave but get new content out as fast as possible so i'm not milling around end-game for 6 months.
I should be at end game for a max of 2 maybe 3 months then something new comes out...kinda like a mini summer vacation. Make it intersting, not the point of the game. The point of the game is fun and the only way it's fun is if new stuff keeps happening. End-game stops being new once you've done it a couple of times.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
I remember when endgame wasn't even a concept. When 'maxing out' your character would take years to accomplish. When the day to day things you did in the game didn't feel irrelevant if you weren't 'maxed out'.
What do you mean remember when, end game is still a bad thing in mmos today. If people find raiding as the ultimate end game then this genre seriously has no hope.
true.
HONESTLY? I started with Meridian, Everquest and UO and NeverEver made it into the Endgame because I simply had not that much time as a young Kid.
My first Endgame was World of Warcraft. And I didnt even get into BWL (was an addon wasnt it? cant remember) we just raided and wiped MC. Yep and for some reason it was the only "cool" Endgame back there in 2005 ever since. All the other MMOs which came and even the WoW-Addons - all the Endgame were sucky as hell and left you with a feeling of "duh, thats it? what a shame. gonna twink 1 or 2 and then quit my sub"
Meh. Endgame is the toughest Challenge for all the Devs out there, believe me.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I started playing DAoC in 2002 and RvR was the end game. People most certainly reached level 50, although it took a long time. I get what you're saying though and I agree. It's just that the only two old school MMO's I played was DAoC and SWG and that was years ago. I could max out a character in SWG in a few days, but there wasn't really any endgame. Then again, it WAS a sandbox and I found it fun.
Remember when there was no "end game content" so to say? Good times.
I agree. I don't really have an issue with there being content once max level is achieved, but I don't like how recent games have become so focused on it.
Whatever happened to the "dicking around" content?
I'm currently trudging through WoW, and I noticed that if I want to take a break from dungeons/quests/etc I don't have anything to do. I know that's a complaint of many that don't agree with the 'themeparkiness' of it, but some faffing about content would fit into the WoW model pretty easily, I think.
"Dicking around content" is exactly it (I like that term because I use it). Gathering places, social places (example - Fallen Earth has like a Casino or something I think)..things that aren't just focused on capping and questing. I might as well play a single player which they've become anyway. I want the old RPG aspect back in my MMORPGS. So many things you can do with housing though in the open world if someone would just put it in.
Why can't we have player run businesses? The fun part about UO was there was no auction house. You would find your favorite player owned vendors, mark em, and use em when needed hoping they had some good stuff on em.
Not being an "old timer" like you guys I still agree with the fact that you should have "dicking around content" it was one of the things I liked about Fallen Earth that you could go to a bar/casino and gamble with in game money on the slot machines, the problem was they never expanded the feature to include Craps, Roulette, Poker tables and Strippers etc... I like that UO had chess boards in taverns and the fact that SWG had entertainers in the cantinas. This plus many non combat classes for me would be far better than just rush to level cap and Raid but it seems people love that concept and the gaming companies are supplying it. The only themepark games that attempted to add lots of fluff activities were EQ2, LotRO and Vanguard with housing, hobbies, collections etc...
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Rift is a perfect example of an endgame MMO.
It was all about get to level cap asap and start raiding, whatever happend to the journey?
It's really sad that the industry is taking this extremly boring and easy way out to get extra cash.
I really miss the journey.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I agree with the op. It is a sad development where I feel left out. I mean, I love the addition of more story. But MMOs are less and less believable worlds. I guess we are a dying breed of gamers who rather want to immerse themselves in a world than just playing quests like an esports job.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
In 100% agreement. Very nice post.
##Best SWTOR of 2011
Posted by I_Return - SWTOR - "Forget the UI the characters and all ofhe nitpicking bullshit" "Greatest MMO Ever Created"
##Fail Thread Title of 2011
Originally posted by daveospice
"this game looks like crap?"
I've been shouting this for the past 2 years. I hope MMOs will eventually try something new - and be successful. I used to love raiding but when that is all it is, over and over, it becomes boring.
They make amazing end game content for the dedicated raiders but no ground-breaking content for players with other interests. End game raiding is what sells now.
Agreed, repeating the same instances over and overis boring.
But the funny thing is that they actually could invent interesting endgame content, not just doing a few dungeons and raids over and over.
AoCs guildcity is a good example of something that could be very fun if you put some work into it. Make the city a real city with stores, npcs, inns and playerhousing. Add mines and farms outside. Let the guild mint their own coins and let the guildmaster be a king in a small city state. Add some PvP, people could do that for a long time, working together for a common goal, and hold banquets and tournaments with other guilds in their own city.
There are countless other stuff they could add if they want us to actually get into the endgame instead of the oldway. Letting the players themselves create some stuff at endgame and going more to a sandbox game when the content is bested would be fun.
But instead is my only options raiding, PvP and *shudder* daily quests.
Like others stated i see the journey way more important, focus on that, end game is busy work to me.
Do this...uh over and over until we can get something out. You got to the end quicker then we expected.
In my opinoin a game that puts the point on end-game and tries and get you there as fast as possible is a bad idea, thats not the point why i'm playing the game, i don't want a quick summary of act 1, fly through act 2 just to sit at act 3 and repeat. End-game is exactly as it sounds to me, this is the end of the game, if i'm here, i'm in waiting mode. Sure i can nudge my character a little more to become closer to elite mode but so what? Until the next expansion comes out and continues the story that gear only makes whats there easier. This is a flawed idea in my opinion. Make the journey worth it, have end game interesting so i don't leave but get new content out as fast as possible so i'm not milling around end-game for 6 months.
I should be at end game for a max of 2 maybe 3 months then something new comes out...kinda like a mini summer vacation. Make it intersting, not the point of the game. The point of the game is fun and the only way it's fun is if new stuff keeps happening. End-game stops being new once you've done it a couple of times.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.