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Smart UI - It died with EQ??!!
Bravnik
Member UncommonPosts: 158
The issue I have with todays MMO's are they are just too fake. They seem all cookie cutter to me. Lets take the original EQ for example. Lets even take a starting area in EQ for example - Everfrost.
Back when I was a noob in EQ I was amazed to watch the High Level guys pharm the Ice Giants in EQ. Those giants could smash me in seconds while I pharmed Mammoths out in the plain. Every now and then one of the Giants would get trained out of their caves as pharming them was a talent and every now and then the person doing it would lose control, try to run and pull them out into the plain. After the Giant killed them they would walk back and god help you if you got into their ago range. I even seen them pulled to the entrance of the cave to Halas and cause all kinds of mayhem.
Those days in MMO's are now long gone. Mobs now warp back to their spots or run right past people like they are blind to all the people around them. Hell half the time you can't even tag one going back as it is LOCKED. WTF. How about we put the SMART back into the mobs. It gave the game challenge and more of a real feel to it. Today games feel like....well....a game. EQ had more to it than that. Why can't they make a game like EQ but more modern? In todays MMO's you can run though most zones without a worry in the world. If you get ago it's OK cause you can just outrun them and they will stop chasing you soon ether way. In EQ they NEVER stopped chasing you and boss mobs would pull you back to them magically so there was no running away unless you zoned. You had to fight your way though or go along the zone edges to get around mobs.
I swear EQ had it right. Sure there were some sucky things like the long camps that were put in to slow down progression but UI wise (until SOE started screwing EQ with Instance, easy travel and such) EQ had it right. I miss the trains in dungeons. Hell I just miss being in a cave and having other people in there with me......Instancing is another area where it kills the feeling of the game but that is topic for another discussion.
Comments
I agree. I miss having to be careful when moving through zones and such. Coming from DAoC I always hated when people would get mobs to follow them to where all the bots were located. Which if you were doing two accounts on one comp, sometimes you'd come back to a dead bot. Happened to me many times. I really do miss those days of exploring also.
I think you mean AI. Never played EQ but I've played FFXI and it was the same. Mobs would chase you until you zoned out. When I played WoW I thought it was really dumb how mobs would not chase you that far, and how easy it was to get away.
I doubt the AI was much better than what we have today, though. The mobs were just tougher and programmed to chase you down. I do miss that feeling of danger, though.
I agree with you. EQ was my first MMO and still the one I enjoyed playing the most for some of the reasons you described. Some of it nostalgia but I miss the old school risk vs reward, challenege, corpse runs, lack of hand-holding and grouping dynamics, etc.
Unfortunately, we are in the minority. EQ, even at it's peak, is what would now be considered a niche game. WoW proved there was a much larger market out there. I suspect most investors aren't interested in targeting our demographic.
Look at Vanguard even, it's pretty much the spiritual successor to EQ with better graphics and more functional UI. But not enough people wanted to play it. Even after all the fixes and recent 45 days playing time there's still very few people interested in the game, SOE least of all.
The sad fact is the market has changed and developers are targetting a different audience now. Someday we might get the game we're all hoping for (EQ with better graphics) but I'm not holding my breath.
Sorry for being a Debbie Downer but I've literally spent the last month scouring forums, websites, blogs and trying every AAA and even a lot of AA titles out there and the game we want just doesn't exist. Project 1999 is probably the closest thing and it has it's share of issues as well. As much I'd like to think graphics aren't important in the case of a 12-year old game I have a really hard time looking past them. I almost went back to EQ for the TLP servers or even Live but I just don't think it's the same game I remember anymore. The closest thing out there is Vanguard and it is really discouraging knowing it's not likely to ever get love from SOE again. I would swear their employees actually have an SOP issuing a gag-order on even speaking about Vanguard. I've tried to pry something, anything out of them and can't get a peep.
So, you want to bring back griefing in some bit of nostalgia?
That is all that would be accomplished by bringing this back into the game.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I could not agree more. I remember when MMOs would build on the features of their predecessors. Today, every new game tries to set themselves apart by what features they remove. No more death penalties! No more waiting for mobs to spawn! No more grind! No more travel!
I miss MMOs where getting from point A to point B was a challenge. It was very rewarding to come out of the other side of a dungeon and discover a new area of the game.
The problem is, casual gamers complain about these things and, instead of working to improve the experience, these systems are simply removed from the game creating a more shallow experience.
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I miss mobs that ran for help. I hated EQ1 kobolds but damn do I miss them. Get the bugger down a bit and he starts to run, you'd better finish him or he's bringing the whole clan to kick your ass.
Was it hard? yes
Was it frustrating? sometimes
Was it rewarding and a little more realistic? To me, yes.
yup, more realistic and accomplishment when you completed something
Everquest also featured monsters that showed the monsters they were wielding. I remember giving torches to all of the guards which would make a very different atmosphere... Or if you gave one of those impossibly slow weapons from the giants in kunark to a skeleton... All of a sudden it would one-shot anyone who was even 5 levels above the skeleton. Plus if you killed the monster you could loot said item.
If you wanted to give rubicite armor to skeletons you could do so and if someone killed the skeleton they got the rubicite.
These days it doesnt even generate what the monster had until after you killed the thing. In everquest you KNEW when the monster had the uber item -- because it hit HARDER...
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Actually the worst trains in EQ happened with the Z axis in places like blackburrow where you could have the entire zone come after you.
As for MOB AI though -- in general people do NOT want smart monsters... If as a warrior, any mage monster you came across kited you trying to draw you into range of more monsters to help kill you. If when you invaded a dungeon, one of the 6 ogres at the entrance ran deeper into the complex to ring the alarm to bring the whole place down on you. If smarter boss monsters RAN if they thought they were going to lose, etc. It mainly makes the game massively harder and completely unsoloable.
This is what I want.
I also played classic EQ.
Sadly people now don't want a challenging world. They want to solo all the way to max level and have the best gear without too much hassle.
This is a lost battle, MMORPGs are long dead, all is left now are the simple MMOs. And they are becoming simpler every time so we better enjoy what we have now because the future is much worse. Hell, even original WOW looks hard now.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
You have some valid points. Most games never recover from a horrible launch. And, to SOE's credit, they came in and basically rescued it. Vanguard today is a fary cry from its horrendous release.
The only 2 games I've seen have a real resurgence are DDO and LOTRO. As much as I dislike F2P on principle, Turbine's hybrid model seems to be working.
Lol, I was almost halfway the OP's post when I realised that he meant AI instead of UI, I was already wondering what that smart UI was about
Yeah, EQ was awesome. Damn, when someone started yelling 'train to zone!' those were definitely moments when people started paying attention and scutter away, those mobs were far more assertive and brutal than the current ones.
MMO devs changed it in later MMO's for player convenience, I guess. Taking away all the rough edges of the gameplay on which players might accidentally hurt their toe on. A shame, rough edges in gameplay gives it its charm as well.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
AI- Artificial Intelligence
UI- User Interface
(=
Anyways, it is frustrating, in some modern MMO'S the AI is so low that a 13 year old noob can program a bot program to compete it.
However, i myself coming from the gaming industry, and i can defenetly tell you that programing an working & responding AI is super hard, in any means, and i refer to a SUPER "stupid" AI, not to mention the big ones.
AI is a complicated matter, espisially when we are talking about an online RT comunication.
most of the modern AI's stays simple those days JUST for the simple reason that the programers have no reason to overload their servers, which, after the internet revulotion that the world has passed in the past 10 years, are already loaded.
Whats so "smart" about a mob aggroing people in its path?
Just because the mob got pulled to somewhere and as its walking back to its original position it aggros any player in range does not make it smart.
Really?! Thats what you think is smart? Smart AI in MMOs must have really low standards then.
Smarter than the AI we have today.
this! ^^
sorry but an enraged lion will maul anything in its path... its not just going to ignore all other players trying to kill him... just because his target got away.
The answer: Smart AI does not necessarily mean Fun AI.
The situation described seems to be a clear example of AI which is irritating because it's smart(ish).
Since players pay for entertainment and not AI quality, we have "stupider" AI (which is, in reality, the smarter way to program it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It has nothing to do with smart AI. If anything, it takes more work to create a mob on a leash that resets properly and at the right time. I'm sure you've all played one game or another where a mob reset on you even though you hadn't taken it far from its spawn point. Having a mob chase you indefinitely and stay aggro (and vulnerable) to all bystanders on its eventual path back is much easier to do.
Changing this single thing about a game wouldn't improve it. EQ was created such that travel would be risky and difficult by design. It was designed to be lethally dangerous to let mobs get away in a dungeon, and hazardous to hang out on a train path without paying attention. An existing game that wasn't designed that way could not be improved just by making mobs always chase all the way to the zone line and kill people on their way back. It would just be an annoyance. You'd have to change everything else about the game to get that EQ feel.
ill have to correct something there
"Since [NEW CROP OF] players pay for entertainment and not AI quality [LIKE OLD SCHOOL PLAYERS PREFERED], we have "stupider" AI (which is, in reality, the smarter way to [MAKE MONEY] "
honestly
as a gamer i hate it
as a businesman, its genius.
The original poster has it right. Old school Everquest Monster AI wasn't the most advanced or brightest thing out there. In fact, it was dirt simple. But I'll give you a quick description of what you faced as well as a modern comparison.
Everquest example 1 - You're in Greater Faydark, leveling your little elf and you've made it to say, 8th level. You want to go into Crushbone (starter orc dungeon) but figure you are better off getting level 9 (a key level for many classes). You head to the infamous " Orc Hill " spawn area and do some solo'ing. By doing so, you would come across several spawns of orcs that you could pull either one or two at a time. Pretty safe, right?
If you pulled a fighting orc Centurion, it was a straight up fight until you or the orc was dead. But... the Orc WOULD run from you the moment it hit about 1/4th health. It would run sooner if you outleveled it more substantially, taking off when it had more health as a buffer. It WOULD find help, pathing to various spawn points where available orcs could be found, and they WOULD aggro and come for you.
If you pulled an orc Shaman, it would fight you as well. But it WOULD debuff you first, it would cast damage over time spells, and it would do both of those things as its FIRST move. It would swing and blast at you until it was badly wounded, and it too would take off to get help. But, before it left, it WOULD try to root you in place with a spell.
In both cases, the speed of the orcs as they would turn and bolt was at full steam. They ONLY were at a reduced slowness to their running if they were at 1/10th of their remaining health, or lower. So you had to expect what they were going to do and be on top of stunning them, snaring them, rooting them, or doing SOMETHING to buy time to allow you to damage them to that point where they would be extra slow.
Warcraft Example 1 - You're in the barrens and you fight some quillboars. Some of them will turn and run when badly damaged to get some help. Some of them won't. In either case, they will *always* move at a reduced speed in comparison to you, and you have a FAR easier time in cutting them down than was described above.
The casters will also lead off with spells if they are capable. Unlike the example above, they will only try a DoT or a Debuff spell once. If it fails to land, they won't try it again for a substantial length of time. The game doesn't keep track from the mob's point of view if it should try debuffing you again on a failure. Quillboars capable of casting will not lead off with their strongest damaging spells after a successful debuff. It's very likely they will save that as their third or fourth cast, when they are of so low in health during the fight's pacing that it's of no use for them to really get around to it.
Everquest had simple, but very effective AI schemes for their mobs. Players had to time things, snare or root, or interrupt spells, or pull mobs *far* ahead of where they could double back and run for help.
Warcraft, and many games that followed EQ decided to throw many of those elements. And that's a really good point the original poster had.
How was EQ AI "smart?" I am sorry, but it was very dumb much of the time.
In fact, it was so dumb it allowed players of much lower level to kill mobs they had no business killing by just endlessly kiting without ever getting hit. Druids , with their runspeed, could kite /nuke to death almost any open zone mob in the game.
The term "trains" has faded from MMOs because of . But to those old enough to know what a EQ low guk "train" was you will remember them as funny but will not miss them from MMO's today.
You enter a zone to have someone leaving pull 100 mobs onto the zoneline to have them sit there and kill people b4 they could load into the zone.
Your nostalgia for EQ has blurred your memory. I agree that AI today is mostly boring, but EQ was not only worse, it was the seed that grew into todays AI.
TRAIN!!!
I played Everquest a couple months and the most fun I had was hearing those words and then running like hell for the zone.
I didn't enjoy it when other groups of players camped respawn spots in Everquest 1, although the fix (Instances) is worse than the problem as far as I'm concerned. I do not like instances, they're great for Diablo II, but Diablo II isn't a MMORPG.
The point of games isn't to dominate players.
Nobody plays long with the AD&D DM who consistently destroys the group and claims he outsmarted you all. That guy's a jerk. He doesn't understand what makes games fun at all.
Instead, players want an interesting pattern to unravel which is suited to their own capabilities. And for most types of games, this means smart AI isn't fun AI.
Video: Good AI vs. Fun AI
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I have been playing games for a long time and while I dont expect to bang my head on the keyboard in diablo, I expect a lot more for Mmorpg.
It's like if people these days have no idea what mmorpg means. It's a role playing game, there needs to be some realism, some challenge to overcome, penalties are also a must cause without it you have nothing to fear. No game ever gave me that adrenaline rush since UO and EQ and I prolly played every mmorpg that came out in the last 15 years.
I want the challenge back in my games, I want to be afraid to go in a new dungeon, I want to feel accomplishment for surviving to the end of that dungeon. I want to get angry at myself for dieing, feel the consequence for trying to chew too much. I want a game that requires you to be good at what you do. Back in the days, rpgs were deep and meaningful. The old crowd that played pen&paper D&D were used to slow pacing/dangerous gameplay.
Back in the days the journey mattered as much as the destination, you had fun playing the game. New games are a joke, even if you have no idea what you are doing you are maxed out in a week and it felt more like work than anything else. All I want is a true mmorpg for serious player, not serious as in hardcore but serious as in immersion, challenges, stories, interaction with other players, penalties/rewards, a game that is so good that you start dreaming about your character. Thats a good RPG game. New games are so diluted you cant even get any rewards out of it cause they removed all the penalties, you cant be proud of what you accomplished because it was like trying to find water in the middle of a lake.
I know that the new generation of players like that instant gratification, they dont want to have to find a group, they want a 30 minutes gaming session to be meaninful, they dont want penalties in their game cause they associate it with failing.
The greatest rewards are always reserved for those who overcomes the greatest challenges. If I just want a quick entertainement, where I dont have to worry too much, I play single games. I can save before anything bad can happen, I dont have to worry about death. It sure is entertaining but it isnt making your pulse quicken. Reading books, watching movies and playing mmorpg are now in the same box. But RPG should be something else, you are playing a role exactly for that, you have to get out of your comfort zone.