Holy crap..... I might actually want to play SWTOR.
[...]
We all loved KOTOR, right? Probably...
Well this game is probably going to be like KOTOR in some respects, [...]
Well ... yeah.
SW:TOR will have an instanced storyline that you can play through.
In fact, 8 different stories of that size.
One for each starter class (i.e. Jedi Consular, Jedi Knight, Smuggler, Trooper, Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Imperial Agent, Bounty Hunter). Each about 200 hours long.
Thats why I want to play SW:TOR, even if I get nothing else, I will definitely get some great Bioware storytelling.
SWTOR will be like no other game in existence. As a matter of fact, you don't use your keyboard to play. You control your character by screaming in Huttese, with a Swahili accent. Instead of XP, you try to earn Jar Jar's favor. If he dry humps you, you gain a level.
And if you gain a level, you don't become more powerful or get more skills. You get a carpenter's level which you then use to bash snake's heads in while yelling "FUDGE!" in Swahili Huttese. 253,451 snakes and 16 Jar Jar dry humps later, you get your ship.
Ah... innovation. It may not be fun, but it's different. And isn't that all that matters?
The poll is pretty week and needs more choices. The ones offered aren't sufficient enough so didn't vote.
But I think it will be gear based, but not a "grinder" like WoW. I haven't heard of reputation grinds being the dominant factor which it was in WoW. The best gear will come from raids I believe but since the gear is class specific I don't think it's going to be the typical "grind" that WoW is.
I remember in Kara you could do a whole run and get to see only two pieces that MIGHT be an upgrade and then you had to roll against other people for it. From what I read about SWTOR, they don't do it that way with 'winner take all' gear.
That said, as long as a game is fun, there is a point/plot/story/lore to keep me interested I have nothing against a "gear grind". I've played "skill only" games which ended up to be extremely boring (Darkfall).
The poll is pretty week and needs more choices. The ones offered aren't sufficient enough so didn't vote.
I wonder sometimes if these folks go over to FPS forums and bitch about gear not being permanent and having relevance in PvP gameplay.
If gear has ANY STATS AT ALL, and the gear with the BEST STATS are in the most CHALLENGING places, often in raids, or gotten by raid tokens, or whatever, then for those people who absolutely MUST have the best stuff, it's gonna be a gear grind.
I've played alot of "themepark" games, often to max level. My mainstay for the past 2+ years has been LotRO, and like most MMO's, the best stuff is aquired through raids.
I couldn't care less about doing raids, so I guess it's a good thing I couldn't care less about having the absolute best gear. I'm not going to use a chamberpot and drink breakfast, lunch, and dinner through a straw so I can have boots that give me 200 more "finesse" and 3 more "agility" than something I can buy or craft myself.
So I pick the 3rd option: the game will be what I choose it to be.
Content is great, but loot grinds make it feel like you are still doing something to progress your character after your can't gain any more levels. Content that doesn't result in some form of reward that makes my character better for having done it just seems pointless and tacked on. Stagnation kills enjoyment, there has to always be a way of getting better.
I agree to the necessity of progress. But why does it always have to be gear-based?
Surely not because it is the best way to handle the yearn for progress, but rather the simplest. In the endgame, when there are no new skills, no new weapon abilities and whatnot, then nothing changes any more, only the numbers go up. Where is the enjoyment in that? How can intelligent ppl actually fall into that cheap trick? I don't get it.
I just wondered, what would happen, if I change the game from having the item cap happen earlier than the level cap and the advantage of raids is just to get the last levels faster than with "normal" missions?
Would that mean, there is no "endgame" and ppl would not play it b/c of that?
Or would the endgame just turn from a gear grind to a level grind?
I mean in the end it doesn't matter at all, if your character progresses via levels or items, as long as both provide the same way of progress, which is increasing numbers (attributes, bonuses).
Only that it bothers me how wearing an item could make you smarter, even more smarter than you gained "smartness" from your experience as a sentient being. And a Jedi Knight that is utterly helpless if he doesn't wear his purple epixxx armor of force-uberness, does not appear to me to catch the spirit of the SW universe.
I hate this BS.
Well Item based also makes it easier to press reset on the game advancement. When an expantion comes out, the new rewards from quests and what not, are usually comperable to some raid level items from before the expansion. In an endless level or skill grind game, what do you do with two people, who play equal ammounts of time, but one has been playing for 6 months more than the other? The one who started earlier will always be more powerful. Unless the game goes for a versatility route, where the more levels mean more versatility, but not neccisarily more power, kinda like what Secret world seems to be doing.
The poll is pretty week and needs more choices. The ones offered aren't sufficient enough so didn't vote.
I wonder sometimes if these folks go over to FPS forums and bitch about gear not being permanent and having relevance in PvP gameplay.
If gear has ANY STATS AT ALL, and the gear with the BEST STATS are in the most CHALLENGING places, often in raids, or gotten by raid tokens, or whatever, then for those people who absolutely MUST have the best stuff, it's gonna be a gear grind.
I've played alot of "themepark" games, often to max level. My mainstay for the past 2+ years has been LotRO, and like most MMO's, the best stuff is aquired through raids.
I couldn't care less about doing raids, so I guess it's a good thing I couldn't care less about having the absolute best gear. I'm not going to use a chamberpot and drink breakfast, lunch, and dinner through a straw so I can have boots that give me 200 more "finesse" and 3 more "agility" than something I can buy or craft myself.
So I pick the 3rd option: the game will be what I choose it to be.
/thread
No reason to get worked up over deatails like gear progression. Play the game and enjoy it. Or don't.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
The direction that led WoW to 12 million worldwide subs?
TOR could only be that lucky to have similar success.
Funny story, the vast majority of MMORPG gamers LIKE raiding and heroic dungeons and daily quests and instanced PvP.
The funny story is really how little you know about human behaviour.
People always accept what they are offered. Untill they are offered better they will accept this. Let me give you an example - back in 1990 Beverly Hills 90210 was beyond popular. Everyone watched it. So by that you say the everyone would love a re-run of this program. Well the re-run was a disaster and was cancled fast.
Some other company offered better shows, like Games of Thrones, Band of Brothers, Sons of Anarchy just to name a few that are totally differnt.
So the funny story is not that the majority of MMORPG gamers LIKE the wow model. Its because there is nothing better out there, and they stick to WOW because they do it best(opinion). Beside look at Rift, its a 99% copy of wow, and it lose marketshare every day. People soon get the feeling "been there done that".
The soul reason you are not offered anything new is simply, making a MMO cost vast amounts of money, its simply too risky and expensive to try be inovertive.
You will see the new era of MMORPG when Blizzard post their next mmo, cuz they are the only once with the cash to do so, and they are forced to as well, to get success on the MMO scean, they need to make a whole new product. Its exspected.
No.. Noone with a game based on the WOW model will ever get 12 million subs. just as noone will get the same amount to watch a show that is exactly like Beverly Hills. How can you even consider that someone will get those number for something that is not the slightest new?
If you want 12 mill subs again, make a new era. Wow did and that is why they got that many. Now dont start the WOW also copied other mmos, yes they did. I played EQ1 and wow just made that game better, their new era was "making MMO accesable and enjoyable for the big market" .. Hench; they targeted the huge casual market. You know how casual wow was/is if u played EQ/DAOC and other of the old mmos
The funny story is really how little you know about human behaviour.
People always accept what they are offered. Untill they are offered better they will accept this.
Now that is a funny story.
So now is it time to tell us about sandbox gaming and the infinite joys and beautiful magic in brings us along with puppies and world peace?
I'm a MMO player since UO in '99 yes including SWG at launch and I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried.
I do like your profile pic BTW, definitely miss that game (with rose colored glasses on, of course)
The choice you seem to be missing is that people can choose NOT to play MMORPGs if they don't like the current offerings, they aren't forced to play "the best one out there" if everything out there is crap.
I know it is not a popular opinion, but WoW is a GREAT game, at least it was in my opinion.
Apparently millions still believe it is worth their time and money.
But whose to argue with broad generalizations and half-logical assumptions?
(mmorpg.com staff is it allowed to make snarky, pompous comments? if not I will edit this post, this is not a flame merely sarcasm and general snobbery, hopefully that is allowed dear moderators)
1) Quest based leveliing with loads of dungeons (Flashpoints) for low lvls.
2) Raids (Operations) as a form of endgame
3) Skill trees being almost the same as wow (2x3 per class as far as I'm aware), points acquired by lvls to spend on
4) PvP organized in form of Battlegrounds (Warfronts)
5) Pretty similiar combat mechanics.
Do you think that SWTOR will turn out to be almost same grinder and treadmill as WoW, with huge emphasis on gear or it will allow all kind of players participate in the endgame (PvP'ers, Crafters, Soloers, Raiders) therefore more "skill" than "gear dependant?
Yes, WoW invented all those things. Oh wait!!! No, they didnt . WoW was a cpoy and paste from Everquest, Ultima, Etc etc and more Etc, but yes we still have people talking about ¨swtor is a wow clone¨, when Bioware have people working who also was part of games like Ultima and Meridian 59. Even better they have the dev team of the best pvp MMO of the last 10 years DAOC, but still ¿the pvp is like wow?. And NO, swtor is not gear dependant you can even just upgrate ur noob gear or wathever you want to be part of a raid, flashpoint pvp or anything. But tbh, this is just pointless, all the hate around swtor could mean just one thing, the game will be a huge success.
Seriously, get some real info before trolling, all the ¨swtor and wow¨ comparision is just stupid and annoying at this point. The only thing in common is that both games are MMOs, so they have all the features that the community want when they play or buy a MMO. A game without Raids, Dungeons, Crafting, PvP etc etc etc is just dommed to fail, bc people !want that!, even GW2, well they will have also public quest or dynamics even like rift (Omg a rift copy, lol). Is even better when you think that wow is a copy from the Lore and history of Warhammer, star wars is 100% star wars. But enough, think what you want, it doesnt gonna change anything.
Yes. itll be a gear grinder. Reaching endgame is for me the point to start an alt or to quit. But hey, if I quit, there are 5 others who stay because they expect the gear grind.
Well, the only reason for me to quit even earlier is when there is no way to mentor/sidekick with my rl friends that I usually bring with me for a new MMO. I havent actually checked yet if the game will have this as feature though. But other then that, Im looking forward to Bioware's story. I loved most Bioware rpg's.
The funny story is really how little you know about human behaviour.
People always accept what they are offered. Untill they are offered better they will accept this.
Now that is a funny story.
So now is it time to tell us about sandbox gaming and the infinite joys and beautiful magic in brings us along with puppies and world peace?
I'm a MMO player since UO in '99 yes including SWG at launch and I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried.
I do like your profile pic BTW, definitely miss that game (with rose colored glasses on, of course)
The choice you seem to be missing is that people can choose NOT to play MMORPGs if they don't like the current offerings, they aren't forced to play "the best one out there" if everything out there is crap.
I know it is not a popular opinion, but WoW is a GREAT game, at least it was in my opinion.
Apparently millions still believe it is worth their time and money.
But whose to argue with broad generalizations and half-logical assumptions?
(mmorpg.com staff is it allowed to make snarky, pompous comments? if not I will edit this post, this is not a flame merely sarcasm and general snobbery, hopefully that is allowed dear moderators)
Just like they can choose to NOT spend hours doing whatever it takes to get the "best gear".
Whatever SWTOR chooses as the gateway to the best gear will be a grind for those who simply can't be happy without it. No matter what it is, it will simply be known as the THING THAT's KEEPING YOU FROM YOUR SWEET, SWEET gear. It could be a line of hot babes in Leia's chain mail bikini that you have to make out with before you get the +20 Vorpal Blaster of Benevolence, and it would STILL be an "intolerable grind".
In LotRO, my main spends lots more time a max level than not. Yet I rarely raid, and when I do, I do it to fill a fellowship for a kinnie that want the beloved "Boots that Shoot". Or I raid cuz I want to. And yet, I never feel like "I've beaten everything" and should cancel my sub. I always manage to find something to do, even in a game where raids and dailies are the "end game".
If SWTOR succeeds in making me feel that way in their game, they'll keep my sub indefinitely. If they don't, they won't.
Do you think that SWTOR will turn out to be almost same grinder and treadmill as WoW, with huge emphasis on gear or it will allow all kind of players participate in the endgame (PvP'ers, Crafters, Soloers, Raiders) therefore more "skill" than "gear dependant?
So far, i'm actually not convinced that SWTOR will have a robust enough endgame experience to warrant any kind of gear grind.
Obviously they have announced some raids and things, so these will exist, but I think the DEVs are more expecting that people will just reroll and play a different character once they're done rather than continue to improve their character for years.
I also have never played WoW, so i don't know the exact skill-vs-gear thing. I know that in EQ2 (which WoW is quite similar to), you do NEED certain gear in order to survive, but ultimately it's the player that matters - you can give crappy playerrs the best gear in the game and their DPS and situational awareness will still suck and they still won't be able to defeat any semi-difficult encounters.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
The direction that led WoW to 12 million worldwide subs?
TOR could only be that lucky to have similar success.
Funny story, the vast majority of MMORPG gamers LIKE raiding and heroic dungeons and daily quests and instanced PvP.
The funny story is really how little you know about human behaviour.
People always accept what they are offered. Untill they are offered better they will accept this. Let me give you an example - back in 1990 Beverly Hills 90210 was beyond popular. Everyone watched it. So by that you say the everyone would love a re-run of this program. Well the re-run was a disaster and was cancled fast.
Some other company offered better shows, like Games of Thrones, Band of Brothers, Sons of Anarchy just to name a few that are totally differnt.
So the funny story is not that the majority of MMORPG gamers LIKE the wow model. Its because there is nothing better out there, and they stick to WOW because they do it best(opinion). Beside look at Rift, its a 99% copy of wow, and it lose marketshare every day. People soon get the feeling "been there done that".
The soul reason you are not offered anything new is simply, making a MMO cost vast amounts of money, its simply too risky and expensive to try be inovertive.
You will see the new era of MMORPG when Blizzard post their next mmo, cuz they are the only once with the cash to do so, and they are forced to as well, to get success on the MMO scean, they need to make a whole new product. Its exspected.
No.. Noone with a game based on the WOW model will ever get 12 million subs. just as noone will get the same amount to watch a show that is exactly like Beverly Hills. How can you even consider that someone will get those number for something that is not the slightest new?
If you want 12 mill subs again, make a new era. Wow did and that is why they got that many. Now dont start the WOW also copied other mmos, yes they did. I played EQ1 and wow just made that game better, their new era was "making MMO accesable and enjoyable for the big market" .. Hench; they targeted the huge casual market. You know how casual wow was/is if u played EQ/DAOC and other of the old mmos
The part Highlighted is 100% Wrong, THe new 90210 is in its 4th season and the latest esp played was 10-18-11. I dont watch it but according to Tubeplus.me, That show is doin just fine. so might wanna do research before u get diarrhea of the mouth..
Gear grinder or not, all more modern mmorpg's revolve around running instances over and over. Same with be even with GW2.
Instanced dungeons, instanced arenas and battlefields, maybe some rvr
Problem is mmorpg's nowadays don't offer almost anything beside combat. No player made economy, worlds with visible or unvisible borders everywhere and filled with random mobs, so no meaningful exploration. No teritorial control, no altrernative non-combat gameplays. No housing or pointless housing.
Automated and / or centralized features like auto-lfg tool with instant teleporting, economy centralized in one place server wide (Auction House), hand-holding (quest tracker showing you exactly where to go and what to do), etc
That's why all modern mmorpg's are just same thing over and over.
Changing that would need some drastic changes and throwing out many convenience things, this would cause uproar, qq about 'time-sinks', etc
So mmorpg's will be made to allow conveniently avoid 'time-sinks' and any avoid or mimimize time for any non-comabt activities to allow players to spend as much time grinding instances as humanly possible.
1) Quest based leveliing with loads of dungeons (Flashpoints) for low lvls.
2) Raids (Operations) as a form of endgame
3) Skill trees being almost the same as wow (2x3 per class as far as I'm aware), points acquired by lvls to spend on
4) PvP organized in form of Battlegrounds (Warfronts)
5) Pretty similiar combat mechanics.
Do you think that SWTOR will turn out to be almost same grinder and treadmill as WoW, with huge emphasis on gear or it will allow all kind of players participate in the endgame (PvP'ers, Crafters, Soloers, Raiders) therefore more "skill" than "gear dependant?
Yes, WoW invented all those things.
Where and when did I say that? "Invention" and "similiarity" have different definitions, haven't they?
Oh wait!!! No, they didnt . WoW was a cpoy and paste from Everquest, Ultima, Etc etc and more Etc, but yes we still have people talking about ¨swtor is a wow clone¨, when Bioware have people working who also was part of games like Ultima and Meridian 59. Even better they have the dev team of the best pvp MMO of the last 10 years DAOC, but still ¿the pvp is like wow?. And NO, swtor is not gear dependant
On what basis do you make that statement?
you can even just upgrate ur noob gear or wathever you want to be part of a raid, flashpoint pvp or anything. But tbh, this is just pointless, all the hate around swtor could mean just one thing, the game will be a huge success.
I want to play this game and I will. Im just afraid that it will fall the same direction that WoW did (new set every expansion, raiding for new gear set just to rinse and repeat every now and then). I'm simply tired of it nor do i have time to organize my life around the game anymore. Does it make any sense for you?
Seriously, get some real info before trolling,
In which point am I trolling?
all the ¨swtor and wow¨ comparision is just stupid and annoying at this point.
You may say so, although I dont think this comparison cannot be justified.
The only thing in common is that both games are MMOs, so they have all the features that the community want when they play or buy a MMO. A game without Raids, Dungeons, Crafting, PvP etc etc etc is just dommed to fail
GW 2 has very different approach in that regard. Is it doomed because of that?
, bc people !want that!, even GW2, well they will have also public quest or dynamics even like rift (Omg a rift copy, lol).
GW2 has many more different elements than any other MMO on the market. I would go so far to say that it would be most innovative MMO since ages
IF even better when you think that wow is a copy from the Lore and history of Warhammer, star wars is 100% star wars. But enough, think what you want, it doesnt gonna change anything.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
Considering the game is bascally a world of warcraft clone with a new skin, i'd say yes. I just hope they give a use for the gear. Unlike Wow where there is no point to raiding since there is really nothing to use the gear for and more carrot-on-a-stick raids do not count.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
i have said it befor and i say it again... YES its a gear grinder, because its a target spam your keys mmorpg, just like wow.
If you whant a skill based mmorpg where gear dont have that inpact, play Tera Online when it comes out, aim based/dodge = skill
cant wait for some true skills.... just saying
See, this attitude has always confused me somewhat.
How is figuring out the tactics behind a system any less skillful then using twitch-skills?
Figuring out the optimal rotation given your role and group, the optimal spec given your role and group, the optimal team-mates given your spec etc. seems to be just as true a skill as twitch-skills.
Sure, it's easier to 'cheat' by going to forums and just doing what others say you should do. But does that remove the skill? It's not nearly as drastic as installing an aimbot but both of it is getting outside help. But that doesn't mean that those who don't get outside help are somehow not using any skills.
I reckon that the majority of players may take advice from forums and guides but still try to get at least a basic understanding of why exactly a given spec and rotation is so good. I'd count that as a skill.
I realise that skill-based refers purely to twitch, but sometimes I wonder if some people aren't forgetting that twitch isn't the only skill in gaming.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Originally posted by Robsolf So I pick the 3rd option: the game will be what I choose it to be.
Good points.
I think a lot of players don't realize what gear really means to play overall. Take the three "typical" categories:
1. Grey or Green gear: Usually offers little to minimal protection or offense vs mobs (or people) that are the players level.
2. Normal or Blue gear: usually offers good to ideal protection or offense vs mobs (or people) that are the player's level.
3. Epic, purple or "master" gear: Usually offers maximum or overprotection/offense vs mobs (or people) that are the player's level.
The problem with a lot of games is the gear is done fairly well in many cases, but I think half the people want the top end gear for "performance" (pwning people in PVP, or going raiding etc) and the other half want the top end gear simply because it's usually the best looking gear in games by far.
If gamemakers would do more Wardrobing type things where players can swap in the coolest looking skins on just regular pieces, I don't think half the people would even care about the "Best gear" in a game nor would they go on a grind for that.
One good thing about Aion was they made lots of cool looking gear that could be farmed off mobs onto main gear, even the opponents gear. So people "looked" dangerous or cool without actually being so and that suited many of them just fine and that was good enough to do regular content without doing raiding for lots of people.
Gamemakers need to stop rewarding the coolest LOOKING gear to just the 'best' players, let everyone have good looking gear, but keep the highest performing gear where it needs to be.
i have said it befor and i say it again... YES its a gear grinder, because its a target spam your keys mmorpg, just like wow.
If you whant a skill based mmorpg where gear dont have that inpact, play Tera Online when it comes out, aim based/dodge = skill
cant wait for some true skills.... just saying
See, this attitude has always confused me somewhat.
How is figuring out the tactics behind a system any less skillful then using twitch-skills?
Figuring out the optimal rotation given your role and group, the optimal spec given your role and group, the optimal team-mates given your spec etc. seems to be just as true a skill as twitch-skills.
Sure, it's easier to 'cheat' by going to forums and just doing what others say you should do. But does that remove the skill? It's not nearly as drastic as installing an aimbot but both of it is getting outside help. But that doesn't mean that those who don't get outside help are somehow not using any skills.
I reckon that the majority of players may take advice from forums and guides but still try to get at least a basic understanding of why exactly a given spec and rotation is so good. I'd count that as a skill.
I realise that skill-based refers purely to twitch, but sometimes I wonder if some people aren't forgetting that twitch isn't the only skill in gaming.
You have a point in what ur saing sir. But if you compare a lvl 85 in wow naked, and a lvl 85 full epic geard, who will win?
You have a point in what ur saing sir. But if you compare a lvl 85 in wow naked, and a lvl 85 full epic geard, who will win?
Likely the epic geared one. Unless the naked one is a BE female and the epic one is in puberty.....
I think it's more about a game where there's multiple epic sets with different but viable stat distributions (which, as far as I know, isn't WoW. If you're experienced with it think fitting ships in EvE) and then having epic geared vs differently epic geared or even smartly normal geared vs decently epic geared.
You're still doing the whole gear grinder thing. Probably even more so as there's much more variety in sets and you might want different sets for different situations. But there's a lot more skill involved then just gear, in fact your choice of gear reflects your skill.
Granted, it's not looking like SWToR will be that type of game. Although there's a very, very, very, very small bit of hope in the modification system (extremely likely not though). But one can dream :P.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Not sure if it's a gear grinder per'se as you'll always win something for participating in various raids, flashpoints etc. I guess that depends on your meaning. BadSpock expained it earlier pretty well.
***The Plunger in now the ultimate weapon in the universe! I suggest you use it!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Comments
Well ... yeah.
SW:TOR will have an instanced storyline that you can play through.
In fact, 8 different stories of that size.
One for each starter class (i.e. Jedi Consular, Jedi Knight, Smuggler, Trooper, Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Imperial Agent, Bounty Hunter). Each about 200 hours long.
Thats why I want to play SW:TOR, even if I get nothing else, I will definitely get some great Bioware storytelling.
SWTOR will be like no other game in existence. As a matter of fact, you don't use your keyboard to play. You control your character by screaming in Huttese, with a Swahili accent. Instead of XP, you try to earn Jar Jar's favor. If he dry humps you, you gain a level.
And if you gain a level, you don't become more powerful or get more skills. You get a carpenter's level which you then use to bash snake's heads in while yelling "FUDGE!" in Swahili Huttese. 253,451 snakes and 16 Jar Jar dry humps later, you get your ship.
Ah... innovation. It may not be fun, but it's different. And isn't that all that matters?
Option 1. Yes, it will be a gear grinder
Option 2. No, it will be "skill" over "gear"
The poll is pretty week and needs more choices. The ones offered aren't sufficient enough so didn't vote.
But I think it will be gear based, but not a "grinder" like WoW. I haven't heard of reputation grinds being the dominant factor which it was in WoW. The best gear will come from raids I believe but since the gear is class specific I don't think it's going to be the typical "grind" that WoW is.
I remember in Kara you could do a whole run and get to see only two pieces that MIGHT be an upgrade and then you had to roll against other people for it. From what I read about SWTOR, they don't do it that way with 'winner take all' gear.
That said, as long as a game is fun, there is a point/plot/story/lore to keep me interested I have nothing against a "gear grind". I've played "skill only" games which ended up to be extremely boring (Darkfall).
"TO MICHAEL!"
I wonder sometimes if these folks go over to FPS forums and bitch about gear not being permanent and having relevance in PvP gameplay.
If gear has ANY STATS AT ALL, and the gear with the BEST STATS are in the most CHALLENGING places, often in raids, or gotten by raid tokens, or whatever, then for those people who absolutely MUST have the best stuff, it's gonna be a gear grind.
I've played alot of "themepark" games, often to max level. My mainstay for the past 2+ years has been LotRO, and like most MMO's, the best stuff is aquired through raids.
I couldn't care less about doing raids, so I guess it's a good thing I couldn't care less about having the absolute best gear. I'm not going to use a chamberpot and drink breakfast, lunch, and dinner through a straw so I can have boots that give me 200 more "finesse" and 3 more "agility" than something I can buy or craft myself.
So I pick the 3rd option: the game will be what I choose it to be.
Well Item based also makes it easier to press reset on the game advancement. When an expantion comes out, the new rewards from quests and what not, are usually comperable to some raid level items from before the expansion. In an endless level or skill grind game, what do you do with two people, who play equal ammounts of time, but one has been playing for 6 months more than the other? The one who started earlier will always be more powerful. Unless the game goes for a versatility route, where the more levels mean more versatility, but not neccisarily more power, kinda like what Secret world seems to be doing.
/thread
No reason to get worked up over deatails like gear progression. Play the game and enjoy it. Or don't.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
The funny story is really how little you know about human behaviour.
People always accept what they are offered. Untill they are offered better they will accept this. Let me give you an example - back in 1990 Beverly Hills 90210 was beyond popular. Everyone watched it. So by that you say the everyone would love a re-run of this program. Well the re-run was a disaster and was cancled fast.
Some other company offered better shows, like Games of Thrones, Band of Brothers, Sons of Anarchy just to name a few that are totally differnt.
So the funny story is not that the majority of MMORPG gamers LIKE the wow model. Its because there is nothing better out there, and they stick to WOW because they do it best(opinion). Beside look at Rift, its a 99% copy of wow, and it lose marketshare every day. People soon get the feeling "been there done that".
The soul reason you are not offered anything new is simply, making a MMO cost vast amounts of money, its simply too risky and expensive to try be inovertive.
You will see the new era of MMORPG when Blizzard post their next mmo, cuz they are the only once with the cash to do so, and they are forced to as well, to get success on the MMO scean, they need to make a whole new product. Its exspected.
No.. Noone with a game based on the WOW model will ever get 12 million subs. just as noone will get the same amount to watch a show that is exactly like Beverly Hills. How can you even consider that someone will get those number for something that is not the slightest new?
If you want 12 mill subs again, make a new era. Wow did and that is why they got that many. Now dont start the WOW also copied other mmos, yes they did. I played EQ1 and wow just made that game better, their new era was "making MMO accesable and enjoyable for the big market" .. Hench; they targeted the huge casual market. You know how casual wow was/is if u played EQ/DAOC and other of the old mmos
Now that is a funny story.
So now is it time to tell us about sandbox gaming and the infinite joys and beautiful magic in brings us along with puppies and world peace?
I'm a MMO player since UO in '99 yes including SWG at launch and I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried.
I do like your profile pic BTW, definitely miss that game (with rose colored glasses on, of course)
The choice you seem to be missing is that people can choose NOT to play MMORPGs if they don't like the current offerings, they aren't forced to play "the best one out there" if everything out there is crap.
I know it is not a popular opinion, but WoW is a GREAT game, at least it was in my opinion.
Apparently millions still believe it is worth their time and money.
But whose to argue with broad generalizations and half-logical assumptions?
(mmorpg.com staff is it allowed to make snarky, pompous comments? if not I will edit this post, this is not a flame merely sarcasm and general snobbery, hopefully that is allowed dear moderators)
That was pretty effin funny. I laughed. Out loud.
Yes, WoW invented all those things. Oh wait!!! No, they didnt . WoW was a cpoy and paste from Everquest, Ultima, Etc etc and more Etc, but yes we still have people talking about ¨swtor is a wow clone¨, when Bioware have people working who also was part of games like Ultima and Meridian 59. Even better they have the dev team of the best pvp MMO of the last 10 years DAOC, but still ¿the pvp is like wow?. And NO, swtor is not gear dependant you can even just upgrate ur noob gear or wathever you want to be part of a raid, flashpoint pvp or anything. But tbh, this is just pointless, all the hate around swtor could mean just one thing, the game will be a huge success.
Seriously, get some real info before trolling, all the ¨swtor and wow¨ comparision is just stupid and annoying at this point. The only thing in common is that both games are MMOs, so they have all the features that the community want when they play or buy a MMO. A game without Raids, Dungeons, Crafting, PvP etc etc etc is just dommed to fail, bc people !want that!, even GW2, well they will have also public quest or dynamics even like rift (Omg a rift copy, lol). Is even better when you think that wow is a copy from the Lore and history of Warhammer, star wars is 100% star wars. But enough, think what you want, it doesnt gonna change anything.
Yes. itll be a gear grinder. Reaching endgame is for me the point to start an alt or to quit. But hey, if I quit, there are 5 others who stay because they expect the gear grind.
Well, the only reason for me to quit even earlier is when there is no way to mentor/sidekick with my rl friends that I usually bring with me for a new MMO. I havent actually checked yet if the game will have this as feature though. But other then that, Im looking forward to Bioware's story. I loved most Bioware rpg's.
Just like they can choose to NOT spend hours doing whatever it takes to get the "best gear".
Whatever SWTOR chooses as the gateway to the best gear will be a grind for those who simply can't be happy without it. No matter what it is, it will simply be known as the THING THAT's KEEPING YOU FROM YOUR SWEET, SWEET gear. It could be a line of hot babes in Leia's chain mail bikini that you have to make out with before you get the +20 Vorpal Blaster of Benevolence, and it would STILL be an "intolerable grind".
In LotRO, my main spends lots more time a max level than not. Yet I rarely raid, and when I do, I do it to fill a fellowship for a kinnie that want the beloved "Boots that Shoot". Or I raid cuz I want to. And yet, I never feel like "I've beaten everything" and should cancel my sub. I always manage to find something to do, even in a game where raids and dailies are the "end game".
If SWTOR succeeds in making me feel that way in their game, they'll keep my sub indefinitely. If they don't, they won't.
So far, i'm actually not convinced that SWTOR will have a robust enough endgame experience to warrant any kind of gear grind.
Obviously they have announced some raids and things, so these will exist, but I think the DEVs are more expecting that people will just reroll and play a different character once they're done rather than continue to improve their character for years.
I also have never played WoW, so i don't know the exact skill-vs-gear thing. I know that in EQ2 (which WoW is quite similar to), you do NEED certain gear in order to survive, but ultimately it's the player that matters - you can give crappy playerrs the best gear in the game and their DPS and situational awareness will still suck and they still won't be able to defeat any semi-difficult encounters.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The part Highlighted is 100% Wrong, THe new 90210 is in its 4th season and the latest esp played was 10-18-11. I dont watch it but according to Tubeplus.me, That show is doin just fine. so might wanna do research before u get diarrhea of the mouth..
Gear grinder or not, all more modern mmorpg's revolve around running instances over and over. Same with be even with GW2.
Instanced dungeons, instanced arenas and battlefields, maybe some rvr
Problem is mmorpg's nowadays don't offer almost anything beside combat. No player made economy, worlds with visible or unvisible borders everywhere and filled with random mobs, so no meaningful exploration. No teritorial control, no altrernative non-combat gameplays. No housing or pointless housing.
Automated and / or centralized features like auto-lfg tool with instant teleporting, economy centralized in one place server wide (Auction House), hand-holding (quest tracker showing you exactly where to go and what to do), etc
That's why all modern mmorpg's are just same thing over and over.
Changing that would need some drastic changes and throwing out many convenience things, this would cause uproar, qq about 'time-sinks', etc
So mmorpg's will be made to allow conveniently avoid 'time-sinks' and any avoid or mimimize time for any non-comabt activities to allow players to spend as much time grinding instances as humanly possible.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
Considering the game is bascally a world of warcraft clone with a new skin, i'd say yes. I just hope they give a use for the gear. Unlike Wow where there is no point to raiding since there is really nothing to use the gear for and more carrot-on-a-stick raids do not count.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
i have said it befor and i say it again... YES its a gear grinder, because its a target spam your keys mmorpg, just like wow.
If you whant a skill based mmorpg where gear dont have that inpact, play Tera Online when it comes out, aim based/dodge = skill
cant wait for some true skills.... just saying
Realize Realeyes Reallies
See, this attitude has always confused me somewhat.
How is figuring out the tactics behind a system any less skillful then using twitch-skills?
Figuring out the optimal rotation given your role and group, the optimal spec given your role and group, the optimal team-mates given your spec etc. seems to be just as true a skill as twitch-skills.
Sure, it's easier to 'cheat' by going to forums and just doing what others say you should do. But does that remove the skill? It's not nearly as drastic as installing an aimbot but both of it is getting outside help. But that doesn't mean that those who don't get outside help are somehow not using any skills.
I reckon that the majority of players may take advice from forums and guides but still try to get at least a basic understanding of why exactly a given spec and rotation is so good. I'd count that as a skill.
I realise that skill-based refers purely to twitch, but sometimes I wonder if some people aren't forgetting that twitch isn't the only skill in gaming.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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yes this is the same old crap formula and after the first weeks its the same as always
I think a lot of players don't realize what gear really means to play overall. Take the three "typical" categories:
1. Grey or Green gear: Usually offers little to minimal protection or offense vs mobs (or people) that are the players level.
2. Normal or Blue gear: usually offers good to ideal protection or offense vs mobs (or people) that are the player's level.
3. Epic, purple or "master" gear: Usually offers maximum or overprotection/offense vs mobs (or people) that are the player's level.
The problem with a lot of games is the gear is done fairly well in many cases, but I think half the people want the top end gear for "performance" (pwning people in PVP, or going raiding etc) and the other half want the top end gear simply because it's usually the best looking gear in games by far.
If gamemakers would do more Wardrobing type things where players can swap in the coolest looking skins on just regular pieces, I don't think half the people would even care about the "Best gear" in a game nor would they go on a grind for that.
One good thing about Aion was they made lots of cool looking gear that could be farmed off mobs onto main gear, even the opponents gear. So people "looked" dangerous or cool without actually being so and that suited many of them just fine and that was good enough to do regular content without doing raiding for lots of people.
Gamemakers need to stop rewarding the coolest LOOKING gear to just the 'best' players, let everyone have good looking gear, but keep the highest performing gear where it needs to be.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You have a point in what ur saing sir. But if you compare a lvl 85 in wow naked, and a lvl 85 full epic geard, who will win?
Realize Realeyes Reallies
the one that has 2 hands
Likely the epic geared one. Unless the naked one is a BE female and the epic one is in puberty.....
I think it's more about a game where there's multiple epic sets with different but viable stat distributions (which, as far as I know, isn't WoW. If you're experienced with it think fitting ships in EvE) and then having epic geared vs differently epic geared or even smartly normal geared vs decently epic geared.
You're still doing the whole gear grinder thing. Probably even more so as there's much more variety in sets and you might want different sets for different situations. But there's a lot more skill involved then just gear, in fact your choice of gear reflects your skill.
Granted, it's not looking like SWToR will be that type of game. Although there's a very, very, very, very small bit of hope in the modification system (extremely likely not though). But one can dream :P.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Not sure if it's a gear grinder per'se as you'll always win something for participating in various raids, flashpoints etc. I guess that depends on your meaning. BadSpock expained it earlier pretty well.
***The Plunger in now the ultimate weapon in the universe! I suggest you use it!***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes