Go join a beta of any game almost, that has a good amount of people in it....See what is all that they talk about in the world chat...WoW...WoW has this...WoW did that.....WoW is much better, this game sucks.....WoW has more content....WoW...WoW...WoW.....
They must all be paid by 'the man', that keeps this myth alive!
Hey this is my experience though, yours may vary, but I can only go by what I see and read...
If this is what makes one part of the WoW crowd, then I guess I'm in it too lol...
Here's the problem.
Nearly all games are theme parks that directly copy most of WoW's features but leave some out due to development constraints. So these games offer nothing more or different than WoW, but they offer less.
So OF COURSE people are going to complain that they don't have what WoW had. I would too!
If a game is going to try to copy WoW, then it needs to be BETTER than WoW in almost every regard.
This is kind of what WoW did with Everquest. It was clearly heavily influenced by EQ's design, but it made revolutionary steps in terms of making the whole leveling process quest driven, and giving classes lots of neat abilities.
If a game came out that improved on WoW like WoW improved on Everquest, then I think it would do very well.
All that said, if a game was released that is clearly highly distinct from WoW and good in its own way, then I don't think you would see as much "WoW" did it better complaints (still some of course, but not as much).
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
You're asking us to prove something that is widely known and accepted, only you and a few others think it is a myth. So don't expect people to come up with an argument that's going to knock your socks off. If you really want proof, go play WoW or check out http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
They are out there, even if you come up with clever ways to try and say they're not doesn't change the fact that they exist and many of us have come across them and continue to come across them. Not to mention we see their influence constantly in the way games have been developed over the last few years.
It appears you want flow charts and data sets for us to prove that we're right but why bother explaining something and proving what is considered common knowledge by the masses. It's not as if we're saying the world is flat or something crazy, we're basing our claims of off observations we've made and many people have also made so it is reasonable to infer that our observations are true.
I'm not asking for flow charts...I'm just asking for you know...an argument lol .
I'm challenging a convention, and if you don't believe my challenge is correct, then defend the convention. Saying "everyone knows that!" is not enough.
Stop being argumentative for nobody but Blizzard's sake and acknowledge the facts.
It is not a myth, it is a given. you can tell this by simply seeing that even though the majority of us have gone through it, those of us not liking what they've made it Lich King + afterwards have left. Long gone. Not coming back. Not just disinterested, but hostile. For a reason. Those that stayed, stayed cause they obviously liked what it's become. And the more it is dumbed down, the more i dare you to continue writing crap. For Blizzard's sake. Happy postings.
p.s. the more people like you write this bull, and the more others see positive responses, the more new releases will mirror WoW. Add that too to your 'myth' making.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
The wowsers as I call them doesn't mean they acutally played wow. It's used to create a negative association between wow and the type of person with certain charateristics. People who want everything now: ez-mode play, multiple-specs on one charater, instant travel and others. It's more fun to just label them wowsers.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
When I played Rift I was shocked by awful, rude and always whining player base. Most of the worst of them were making comparisons to WoW, adding sometimes that they were bored of that game. Based on my absolutely negative experience in Rift I dare say that there is WoW crowd. You can call it new generation of MMO players or whatever you like but 10 years ago you did not meet cunts like I met in Rift. There were a few but community usually labelled and excluded them. Mind, I'm from EU and EU servers tend to be better in that regard. I don't even want to think what was going on in US servers.
I take this as it is and will turn general chat off in SWTOR and only chat with my guild members. As a popular game SWTOR will attract tons of those WoW burnouts, bringng all the shite with them.
^^this... and it is wise to be in a guild these days; I was talking to some folks from my guild and one of the first things about TOR we mentioned was the WOW asshats. We don't worry much about those, but it's better to be in a guild with friends that already know you from previous games. In Rift, we rarely chat. Vent/Mumble or whater voice comm is the way to go.
Stop being argumentative for nobody but Blizzard's sake and acknowledge the facts.
It is not a myth, it is a given. you can tell this by simply seeing that even though the majority of us have gone through it, those of us not liking what they've made it Lich King + afterwards have left. Long gone. Not coming back. Not just disinterested, but hostile. For a reason. Those that stayed, stayed cause they obviously liked what it's become. And the more it is dumbed down, the more i dare you to continue writing crap. For Blizzard's sake. Happy postings.
p.s. the more people like you write this bull, and the more others see positive responses, the more new releases will mirror WoW. Add that too to your 'myth' making.
What are you talking about? Did you even read the post?
The whole thing was an argument AGAINST the "fact" that the vast majority of the market will not tolerate anything that isn't:
hand-holding, extremely linear, highly single player, not challenging
You act as if I'm TRYING to get more WoW clones made when the whole post was about the opposite.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
The wowsers as I call them doesn't mean they acutally played wow. It's used to create a negative association between wow and the type of person with certain charateristics. People who want everything now: ez-mode play, multiple-specs on one charater, instant travel and others. It's more fun to just label them wowsers.
Right and this whole thing leads to the preconception that these "wowzers" vastly outnumber any other potential player in the market, and they themselves will not tolerate anything that doesn't meet their very narrow set of requirements that you mentioned.
I don't think this preconception is accurate...that's my argument. I'm sure there are people out there like these "wowzers," but I have my doubts that they dominate the market to the degree that people seem to think they do.
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
Well we know now why you are so sensitive to the term "wow crowd", because you are a wow player and even in that little snippit you compared all other games to wow and called them clones. That is generally what the wow crowd do in every new mmo and then they go back to wow.
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
Well we know now why you are so sensitive to the term "wow crowd", because you are a wow player and even in that little snippit you compared all other games to wow and called them clones. That is generally what the wow crowd do in every new mmo and then they go back to wow.
I really think that you and sooo many others have no idea what I posted and why I posted it.
The whoooole idea of my post was to argue that the "WoW crowd" WOULD actually be interested in games that break the WoW mold. So devs SHOULD try to make games different from WoW.
I really don't think *I* am the one sensitive to the term "WoW crowd" or "WoW" in general. The amount of crazy knee-jerk reactions in this thread is pretty astounding. Especially when my OP was in FAVOR of making games different from WoW.
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
Well we know now why you are so sensitive to the term "wow crowd", because you are a wow player and even in that little snippit you compared all other games to wow and called them clones. That is generally what the wow crowd do in every new mmo and then they go back to wow.
I really think that you and sooo many others have no idea what I posted and why I posted it.
The whoooole idea of my post was to argue that the "WoW crowd" WOULD actually be interested in games that break the WoW mold. So devs SHOULD try to make games different from WoW.
I really don't think *I* am the one sensitive to the term "WoW crowd" or "WoW" in general. The amount of crazy knee-jerk reactions in this thread is pretty astounding. Especially when my OP was in FAVOR of making games different from WoW.
You are trying to convince us all that the term "wow crowd" is a figment our imagination, when we have all experienced it first hand..come on fella!
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
Well we know now why you are so sensitive to the term "wow crowd", because you are a wow player and even in that little snippit you compared all other games to wow and called them clones. That is generally what the wow crowd do in every new mmo and then they go back to wow.
What a load of old bollix, You can't say just because you play WOW you are all "The WOW crowd". Yes some people in wow are arse holes but whats new!? Tarnish Everyone with the same brush Mr?
Besides, Who the hell hasn't played WOW? That would make 90% of the MMO comunity "The WOW Crowd".
I think alot of people hate on Warcraft because they can't find there own MMO, It makes them bubble inside with anger.
If this so called "WoW crowd" doesn't exist, then you might as well just blame developers because they are the ones catering to this fictional group. My only question to the OP is this though, "Why is it when most people want to defend MMOs or flame them (sandbox in particular) you ALL go to singleplayer games as your evidence. I have played sandbox MMOs and singleplayer games for years. They are NOT alike. If you want to compare games, stick the the appropriate types, MMOs to MMOs, FPS to FPS, and so on.
In a side note though, I really wish companies would stop trying to make WoW like games. I for one can't stand WoW...it's BORING! So when companies make these WoW-clones that leaves me without a real desire to even try the game. Don't get me wrong, I still try the game, you can't base an opinion on a game unless ya at least try it.
Go join a beta of any game almost, that has a good amount of people in it....See what is all that they talk about in the world chat...WoW...WoW has this...WoW did that.....WoW is much better, this game sucks.....WoW has more content....WoW...WoW...WoW.....
They must all be paid by 'the man', that keeps this myth alive!
Hey this is my experience though, yours may vary, but I can only go by what I see and read...
If this is what makes one part of the WoW crowd, then I guess I'm in it too lol...
Here's the problem.
Nearly all games are theme parks that directly copy most of WoW's features but leave some out due to development constraints. So these games offer nothing more or different than WoW, but they offer less.
So OF COURSE people are going to complain that they don't have what WoW had. I would too!
If a game is going to try to copy WoW, then it needs to be BETTER than WoW in almost every regard.
This is kind of what WoW did with Everquest. It was clearly heavily influenced by EQ's design, but it made revolutionary steps in terms of making the whole leveling process quest driven, and giving classes lots of neat abilities.
If a game came out that improved on WoW like WoW improved on Everquest, then I think it would do very well.
All that said, if a game was released that is clearly highly distinct from WoW and good in its own way, then I don't think you would see as much "WoW" did it better complaints (still some of course, but not as much).
You say it was an improvement and perhaps to you it was. If I can get EQ1 from launch with updated graphics I'd play it in a heartbeat. The community was so much better (imo). The game was better (imo). The worst thing to happen to EQ was itself, changing from what was once a great game to something else entirely.
Improvement on a game is completely subjective to the person playing it. If you start up a game freshly released and expect it to have all the features, content and improvements (which it has ripped off from other mmo's along the way) your crazy. WoW was good at release other than a bad launch. It took years to get it to where it is now and even that is debatable as to if it's good or bad.
As to your question, yes of course the "wow crowd" exists. It's not exactly definable but I have an idea in my head about who they are. Who the next person thinks they are by definition could be something else entirely. /shrug
ARGUMENT: Players want to be hand held. They won't play a game with non-linear "sandbox" gameplay that focuses on world interactivity.
Flat out WRONG. You want proof? Just look at single player games. Oblivion sold about 1.7 million units in 2006 with N America making up the majority of those sales. So it's probably safe to say it sold 2 million in N. America by now. That's 1/2 - 2/3rds of WoW's N. American sales. And yet Oblivion features highly non-linear gameplay, tons of world interactivity, and hardly any hand-holding at all. GTA is another big seller that has similar features (though it is less "sandboxy"). This to me, completely disproves the notion that the vast majority of players need to be "hand-held" to enjoy a game.
ARGUMENT: Every sandbox game to come out in recent time has failed horribly. Therefore most people prefer the WoW model.
Misleading. Every sandbox that has been released since SWG (which had its own issues) has been an indie mess, low quality, unpolished, and full of bugs. In addition, most of them just try to emulate the success of a game that game out in 1998 (and fail horribly at that) instead of trying to be original and evolve the genre. These "failures" are terrible examples. It would be like concluding that people hate movies because every movie released is the quality of "Gigli."
So what's my point in all this? I want to try to dispel the perception that we're stuck with WoW clones because they are the only games with a chance at success. I don't believe that this "WoW Crowd" dominates the market as so many others do.
So what are your thoughts? After reading my counters to common arguments, do you agree or disagree?
I 100% agree with you. I honestly think if an AAA developer with a hefty budget is made that utilyzed open world, great graphics, 'varying' array of play styles, yes this means Solo'ers, groups, and raids, engaging exploration and a total lack or instancing would be a great success.
Imagine a Sandbox with WoW Production quality and UI elements but Asherons Call story and loot system inside an Oblivian exploration mold.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Well if you can't define it, and what you state it is is different than what someone else states it is, then logically we can say there actually is no real WoW crowd. After all again, if no one agrees that any particular person is part of that crowd, than there can't be a crowd.
Personally I don't think it exists. I think there always have been, and always will be people that compare games, that belittle games and wish a game would do something different. This is not peculiar or particular to WoW, it has been in every game that ever existed before and after Wow.
It's the ultimate definition of a stereotype, often there is a kernal of truth in a stereotype, but most times it was simply a derogatory term to assign a characteristic someone didn't like to a large class of people someone doesn't like, whether that group actually had the characteristic or not.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't know where the OP is getting his Ideas from other than pre concieved stereo types that he seems to believe as fact.
I play WoW and when I look for other games I look for something different. When I took a break from WoW, I played EVE specifically because it was different and only stopped playing EVE when it began feeling like a job.
I am looking forward to The Secret World far more that ST:TOR because it is different than WoW.
I like WoW because it is WoW, but I don't want any other game to be WoW, I would rather they be themselves.
Go join a beta of any game almost, that has a good amount of people in it....See what is all that they talk about in the world chat...WoW...WoW has this...WoW did that.....WoW is much better, this game sucks.....WoW has more content....WoW...WoW...WoW.....
They must all be paid by 'the man', that keeps this myth alive!
Hey this is my experience though, yours may vary, but I can only go by what I see and read...
You have that backwards.
I loved Tabula Rasa but I hated the chat because all you read was people attacking WoW... Over and over people talking about how much WoW sucks, WoW is bad, WoW is horrible....
I found the same thing in EQ2X, I was playing EQ2 because I wanted to try something different and all I see in Chat is people attacking WoW.
In both these games I couldn't understand why people didn't just play the game and enjoy it instead of being obsessed with attacking another game.
In World of Warcraft I very seldom read about other games in trade chat. And the few times I do it is usually a discussion of other games we have played in the past and like.
I agree with Creslin321 to a point. I don't think there's a major audience for games like Mortal Online, even if it was executed flawlessly. I do think there's a very large audience for games that deviate from WoW's formula.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
You're asking us to prove something that is widely known and accepted, only you and a few others think it is a myth. So don't expect people to come up with an argument that's going to knock your socks off. If you really want proof, go play WoW or check out http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
They are out there, even if you come up with clever ways to try and say they're not doesn't change the fact that they exist and many of us have come across them and continue to come across them. Not to mention we see their influence constantly in the way games have been developed over the last few years.
It appears you want flow charts and data sets for us to prove that we're right but why bother explaining something and proving what is considered common knowledge by the masses. It's not as if we're saying the world is flat or something crazy, we're basing our claims of off observations we've made and many people have also made so it is reasonable to infer that our observations are true.
I'm not asking for flow charts...I'm just asking for you know...an argument lol .
I'm challenging a convention, and if you don't believe my challenge is correct, then defend the convention. Saying "everyone knows that!" is not enough.
Very well, I will argue what you wish as soon as you argue to me and convice me that Gravity exists. Right now I'm simply arguing that it doesn't, I'm challenging the convention that it does.
See what I did thar?
Just because you say the sky is green and demand an argument as to why it's blue doesn't mean you're right...just...argumentative I guess.
Okay I get what you're TRYING to say with your post, you're just not saying it very well. If I interpret it correctly you're wondering why developers continue to make a certain style of game as opposed to trying to be innovative and draw out a bored segment of the gaming community who is currently "settling" in a sense, for the current big thing, that being WoW.
As for the "WoW crowd" term, I guess that's just a label. I believe your version of what people consider that label to mean is different than what those posting against your believe it to mean. In your case you're saying the "WoW Crowd" are people upset, bored or otherwise discontent with WoW but seem to have no outlet or other choice as developers merely seem to imitate the kingpin. Where as MY and possibly other peoples version of "WoW Crowd" equals those gamers who generally go into a game with a bad attitude and an anti-social and otherwise abusive and effusive way of interacting with others.
Call that what you will, "WoW Crowd", "Douche Nozzles", Jerks...etc etc. I think that the unfortunate truth is that because of WoW's success it has negative stigma associated with a certain percentage of its playerbase and that's the percentage that does unfortunately make the rest of that playerbase look bad, even tho they very likely are not. You've heard the addage, one person ruins it for the rest..it applies here in spades.
As another poster mentioned, he had a terrible experience with the community in Rift, he felt like he was surrounded by the "WoW Crowd" even tho they were obviously Rift players. It's just a term...accurate as it may not be...it will continue to be applied I think.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
You're asking us to prove something that is widely known and accepted, only you and a few others think it is a myth. So don't expect people to come up with an argument that's going to knock your socks off. If you really want proof, go play WoW or check out http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
They are out there, even if you come up with clever ways to try and say they're not doesn't change the fact that they exist and many of us have come across them and continue to come across them. Not to mention we see their influence constantly in the way games have been developed over the last few years.
It appears you want flow charts and data sets for us to prove that we're right but why bother explaining something and proving what is considered common knowledge by the masses. It's not as if we're saying the world is flat or something crazy, we're basing our claims of off observations we've made and many people have also made so it is reasonable to infer that our observations are true.
I'm not asking for flow charts...I'm just asking for you know...an argument lol .
I'm challenging a convention, and if you don't believe my challenge is correct, then defend the convention. Saying "everyone knows that!" is not enough.
Very well, I will argue what you wish as soon as you argue to me and convice me that Gravity exists. Right now I'm simply arguing that it doesn't, I'm challenging the convention that it does.
See what I did thar?
Just because you say the sky is green and demand an argument as to why it's blue doesn't mean you're right...just...argumentative I guess.
No, not the same at all. Gravity can be proved mathematically, and has pased every single test it has ever been given which is why it's a law.
The statement that a crowd exists because everyone knows it exists is a error in logic.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So most of the counterarguments to my points have boiled down to:
1. They do exist, I know one or two people that are like that.
2. You're wrong (no reason given).
3. It's well known that the WoW crowd exists.
The only quasi-decent argument is that developers seem to believe the WoW crowd exists because all AAA games are modeled after WoW, and this is true. But I think the developers are wrong here.
I mean, it's not hard to see WHY games are modeled after WoW...WoW is a runaway success and other MMORPGs aren't...so everyone wants to be like the big kid.
But this is not "proof" in any way...I think it's just the result of a propensity for risk avoidance. MMORPGs cost a LOT of money to create, and a lot of investors aren't keen to see their massive investment risked on a newer concept.
This is no way validates the claim that the "WoW crowd" exists though.
You're asking us to prove something that is widely known and accepted, only you and a few others think it is a myth. So don't expect people to come up with an argument that's going to knock your socks off. If you really want proof, go play WoW or check out http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/
They are out there, even if you come up with clever ways to try and say they're not doesn't change the fact that they exist and many of us have come across them and continue to come across them. Not to mention we see their influence constantly in the way games have been developed over the last few years.
It appears you want flow charts and data sets for us to prove that we're right but why bother explaining something and proving what is considered common knowledge by the masses. It's not as if we're saying the world is flat or something crazy, we're basing our claims of off observations we've made and many people have also made so it is reasonable to infer that our observations are true.
I'm not asking for flow charts...I'm just asking for you know...an argument lol .
I'm challenging a convention, and if you don't believe my challenge is correct, then defend the convention. Saying "everyone knows that!" is not enough.
Very well, I will argue what you wish as soon as you argue to me and convice me that Gravity exists. Right now I'm simply arguing that it doesn't, I'm challenging the convention that it does.
See what I did thar?
Just because you say the sky is green and demand an argument as to why it's blue doesn't mean you're right...just...argumentative I guess.
No, not the same at all. Gravity can be proved mathematically, and has pased every single test it has ever been given which is why it's a law.
The statement that a crowd exists because everyone knows it exists is a error in logic.
Venge
Gravity hasn't been proven by anything. It's called the THEORY of gravity for a reason. Once can DEFINITELY make a hell of an argument for it..but no math has proven it.
you can't prove gravity (in any way that we know of at the moment). You can't prove gravity (or any thing else) even with an infinite number of observations because of the Problem of Induction.
No it's called the Law of Gravity. Gravity is the attactive force that all objects have towards each other. You can prove this attactive force by simply dropping something, it will fall towards the object with a greater mass and density in this case the earth. It has been tested, and proven empirically and mathematically thousands upon thousands of times.
You can call it whatever name you want, the attactive force that pulls objects towards each other is definately a Law.
Venge
edit - I can see why you would be confused but you are confusing different ideas and terms. However einstein came up with his general relativity theory to explain gravity. His explanation of gravity is theory, that gravity exists is not e theory. A theory is the highest level of certainty behind mathematical proof. A theory has to be substantiated by all available evidence and contradicted by none. All theories also have to have to be falsifiable. For this reason, theories can never be proven. Einstein's theory of general relativity has great predictive power, but in some cases, the predictions aren't always constant. Theories are often revised to fit new available evidence.
Newton's lows of gravity are laws, no matter where you are they will always apply.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
If this is what makes one part of the WoW crowd, then I guess I'm in it too lol...
Here's the problem.
Nearly all games are theme parks that directly copy most of WoW's features but leave some out due to development constraints. So these games offer nothing more or different than WoW, but they offer less.
So OF COURSE people are going to complain that they don't have what WoW had. I would too!
If a game is going to try to copy WoW, then it needs to be BETTER than WoW in almost every regard.
This is kind of what WoW did with Everquest. It was clearly heavily influenced by EQ's design, but it made revolutionary steps in terms of making the whole leveling process quest driven, and giving classes lots of neat abilities.
If a game came out that improved on WoW like WoW improved on Everquest, then I think it would do very well.
All that said, if a game was released that is clearly highly distinct from WoW and good in its own way, then I don't think you would see as much "WoW" did it better complaints (still some of course, but not as much).
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'm not asking for flow charts...I'm just asking for you know...an argument lol
.
I'm challenging a convention, and if you don't believe my challenge is correct, then defend the convention. Saying "everyone knows that!" is not enough.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
@ Creslin (op):
Stop being argumentative for nobody but Blizzard's sake and acknowledge the facts.
It is not a myth, it is a given. you can tell this by simply seeing that even though the majority of us have gone through it, those of us not liking what they've made it Lich King + afterwards have left. Long gone. Not coming back. Not just disinterested, but hostile. For a reason. Those that stayed, stayed cause they obviously liked what it's become. And the more it is dumbed down, the more i dare you to continue writing crap. For Blizzard's sake. Happy postings.
p.s. the more people like you write this bull, and the more others see positive responses, the more new releases will mirror WoW. Add that too to your 'myth' making.
The wowsers as I call them doesn't mean they acutally played wow. It's used to create a negative association between wow and the type of person with certain charateristics. People who want everything now: ez-mode play, multiple-specs on one charater, instant travel and others. It's more fun to just label them wowsers.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
^^this... and it is wise to be in a guild these days; I was talking to some folks from my guild and one of the first things about TOR we mentioned was the WOW asshats. We don't worry much about those, but it's better to be in a guild with friends that already know you from previous games. In Rift, we rarely chat. Vent/Mumble or whater voice comm is the way to go.
What are you talking about? Did you even read the post?
The whole thing was an argument AGAINST the "fact" that the vast majority of the market will not tolerate anything that isn't:
hand-holding, extremely linear, highly single player, not challenging
You act as if I'm TRYING to get more WoW clones made when the whole post was about the opposite.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Right and this whole thing leads to the preconception that these "wowzers" vastly outnumber any other potential player in the market, and they themselves will not tolerate anything that doesn't meet their very narrow set of requirements that you mentioned.
I don't think this preconception is accurate...that's my argument. I'm sure there are people out there like these "wowzers," but I have my doubts that they dominate the market to the degree that people seem to think they do.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
There is no such thing as a WOW crowd, I play WOW and so do alot of my friends, We are in our 30's. WOW has so many players there will always be a bunch of kids playing somewhere. WOW gets so much stick on the board but the real reason it gets so much stick is because most of the people on this board don't even play an MMO and have nothing better to do.
I used to visit this site just before I started playing again board shitless, Now I'm playing again, Hardly ever. I have played MMO's for years and there is only 1 (Maybe 2) that can demand a monthly sub and that is WOW and maybe EVE.
All the WOW haters are like the band groupies, When they sell out they are uncool, WOW is and forever will be the biggest MMO ever, Fact.
Haha finally some support, thanks.
I'm not playing an MMORPG right now, but normally whenever I pick up the latest WoW clone, I wind up quitting the WoW clone and resubbing to WoW (which I wasn't even subbed to in the first place).
The reason being because the WoW clone fails to live up to WoW in almost every way so I just wind up going back to WoW because it gives a better experience.
What I REALLY want is a game that breaks the mold of WoW. WoW was great, but come on, it's been over 6 years...we need the next step already.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well we know now why you are so sensitive to the term "wow crowd", because you are a wow player and even in that little snippit you compared all other games to wow and called them clones. That is generally what the wow crowd do in every new mmo and then they go back to wow.
I really think that you and sooo many others have no idea what I posted and why I posted it.
The whoooole idea of my post was to argue that the "WoW crowd" WOULD actually be interested in games that break the WoW mold. So devs SHOULD try to make games different from WoW.
I really don't think *I* am the one sensitive to the term "WoW crowd" or "WoW" in general. The amount of crazy knee-jerk reactions in this thread is pretty astounding. Especially when my OP was in FAVOR of making games different from WoW.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You are trying to convince us all that the term "wow crowd" is a figment our imagination, when we have all experienced it first hand..come on fella!
What a load of old bollix, You can't say just because you play WOW you are all "The WOW crowd". Yes some people in wow are arse holes but whats new!? Tarnish Everyone with the same brush Mr?
Besides, Who the hell hasn't played WOW? That would make 90% of the MMO comunity "The WOW Crowd".
I think alot of people hate on Warcraft because they can't find there own MMO, It makes them bubble inside with anger.
If this so called "WoW crowd" doesn't exist, then you might as well just blame developers because they are the ones catering to this fictional group. My only question to the OP is this though, "Why is it when most people want to defend MMOs or flame them (sandbox in particular) you ALL go to singleplayer games as your evidence. I have played sandbox MMOs and singleplayer games for years. They are NOT alike. If you want to compare games, stick the the appropriate types, MMOs to MMOs, FPS to FPS, and so on.
In a side note though, I really wish companies would stop trying to make WoW like games. I for one can't stand WoW...it's BORING! So when companies make these WoW-clones that leaves me without a real desire to even try the game. Don't get me wrong, I still try the game, you can't base an opinion on a game unless ya at least try it.
You say it was an improvement and perhaps to you it was. If I can get EQ1 from launch with updated graphics I'd play it in a heartbeat. The community was so much better (imo). The game was better (imo). The worst thing to happen to EQ was itself, changing from what was once a great game to something else entirely.
Improvement on a game is completely subjective to the person playing it. If you start up a game freshly released and expect it to have all the features, content and improvements (which it has ripped off from other mmo's along the way) your crazy. WoW was good at release other than a bad launch. It took years to get it to where it is now and even that is debatable as to if it's good or bad.
As to your question, yes of course the "wow crowd" exists. It's not exactly definable but I have an idea in my head about who they are. Who the next person thinks they are by definition could be something else entirely. /shrug
I 100% agree with you. I honestly think if an AAA developer with a hefty budget is made that utilyzed open world, great graphics, 'varying' array of play styles, yes this means Solo'ers, groups, and raids, engaging exploration and a total lack or instancing would be a great success.
Imagine a Sandbox with WoW Production quality and UI elements but Asherons Call story and loot system inside an Oblivian exploration mold.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Well if you can't define it, and what you state it is is different than what someone else states it is, then logically we can say there actually is no real WoW crowd. After all again, if no one agrees that any particular person is part of that crowd, than there can't be a crowd.
Personally I don't think it exists. I think there always have been, and always will be people that compare games, that belittle games and wish a game would do something different. This is not peculiar or particular to WoW, it has been in every game that ever existed before and after Wow.
It's the ultimate definition of a stereotype, often there is a kernal of truth in a stereotype, but most times it was simply a derogatory term to assign a characteristic someone didn't like to a large class of people someone doesn't like, whether that group actually had the characteristic or not.
Venge
I don't know where the OP is getting his Ideas from other than pre concieved stereo types that he seems to believe as fact.
I play WoW and when I look for other games I look for something different. When I took a break from WoW, I played EVE specifically because it was different and only stopped playing EVE when it began feeling like a job.
I am looking forward to The Secret World far more that ST:TOR because it is different than WoW.
I like WoW because it is WoW, but I don't want any other game to be WoW, I would rather they be themselves.
You have that backwards.
I loved Tabula Rasa but I hated the chat because all you read was people attacking WoW... Over and over people talking about how much WoW sucks, WoW is bad, WoW is horrible....
I found the same thing in EQ2X, I was playing EQ2 because I wanted to try something different and all I see in Chat is people attacking WoW.
In both these games I couldn't understand why people didn't just play the game and enjoy it instead of being obsessed with attacking another game.
In World of Warcraft I very seldom read about other games in trade chat. And the few times I do it is usually a discussion of other games we have played in the past and like.
I agree with Creslin321 to a point. I don't think there's a major audience for games like Mortal Online, even if it was executed flawlessly. I do think there's a very large audience for games that deviate from WoW's formula.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Very well, I will argue what you wish as soon as you argue to me and convice me that Gravity exists. Right now I'm simply arguing that it doesn't, I'm challenging the convention that it does.
See what I did thar?
Just because you say the sky is green and demand an argument as to why it's blue doesn't mean you're right...just...argumentative I guess.
Okay I get what you're TRYING to say with your post, you're just not saying it very well. If I interpret it correctly you're wondering why developers continue to make a certain style of game as opposed to trying to be innovative and draw out a bored segment of the gaming community who is currently "settling" in a sense, for the current big thing, that being WoW.
As for the "WoW crowd" term, I guess that's just a label. I believe your version of what people consider that label to mean is different than what those posting against your believe it to mean. In your case you're saying the "WoW Crowd" are people upset, bored or otherwise discontent with WoW but seem to have no outlet or other choice as developers merely seem to imitate the kingpin. Where as MY and possibly other peoples version of "WoW Crowd" equals those gamers who generally go into a game with a bad attitude and an anti-social and otherwise abusive and effusive way of interacting with others.
Call that what you will, "WoW Crowd", "Douche Nozzles", Jerks...etc etc. I think that the unfortunate truth is that because of WoW's success it has negative stigma associated with a certain percentage of its playerbase and that's the percentage that does unfortunately make the rest of that playerbase look bad, even tho they very likely are not. You've heard the addage, one person ruins it for the rest..it applies here in spades.
As another poster mentioned, he had a terrible experience with the community in Rift, he felt like he was surrounded by the "WoW Crowd" even tho they were obviously Rift players. It's just a term...accurate as it may not be...it will continue to be applied I think.
No, not the same at all. Gravity can be proved mathematically, and has pased every single test it has ever been given which is why it's a law.
The statement that a crowd exists because everyone knows it exists is a error in logic.
Venge
Gravity hasn't been proven by anything. It's called the THEORY of gravity for a reason. Once can DEFINITELY make a hell of an argument for it..but no math has proven it.
you can't prove gravity (in any way that we know of at the moment). You can't prove gravity (or any thing else) even with an infinite number of observations because of the Problem of Induction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
No it's called the Law of Gravity. Gravity is the attactive force that all objects have towards each other. You can prove this attactive force by simply dropping something, it will fall towards the object with a greater mass and density in this case the earth. It has been tested, and proven empirically and mathematically thousands upon thousands of times.
You can call it whatever name you want, the attactive force that pulls objects towards each other is definately a Law.
Venge
edit - I can see why you would be confused but you are confusing different ideas and terms. However einstein came up with his general relativity theory to explain gravity. His explanation of gravity is theory, that gravity exists is not e theory. A theory is the highest level of certainty behind mathematical proof. A theory has to be substantiated by all available evidence and contradicted by none. All theories also have to have to be falsifiable. For this reason, theories can never be proven. Einstein's theory of general relativity has great predictive power, but in some cases, the predictions aren't always constant. Theories are often revised to fit new available evidence.
Newton's lows of gravity are laws, no matter where you are they will always apply.