Nerfs happen cause developer does research and feels one or more classes are either over powered or under- Nothing strange or unusual there. People get upset because they are used to their character being over powered and want to keep it that way
You took the words right out of my mouth.... err.... fingers.
I mean the game had total healing and total damage done listed on every single warzone match that ever occured. All they have to do is add all that data up and average it, with all those hundreds of thousands of people, and they can mathematically determine what needs a nerf and what doesnt.
Why would they listen to forum post whining about classes as opposed to doing it by the numbers?
I haven't been subscribed to SW:TOR for a while now, but I'm sure the nerfs were completely warranted. Some people who played nothing but an overpowered class for the last 3 months might quit sure, but you can never please those type of players anyways.
Nerfs happen cause developer does research and feels one or more classes are either over powered or under- Nothing strange or unusual there. People get upset because they are used to their character being over powered and want to keep it that way
You took the words right out of my mouth.... err.... fingers.
I mean the game had total healing and total damage done listed on every single warzone match that ever occured. All they have to do is add all that data up and average it, with all those hundreds of thousands of people, and they can mathematically determine what needs a nerf and what doesnt.
Why would they listen to forum post whining about classes as opposed to doing it by the numbers?
I haven't been subscribed to SW:TOR for a while now, but I'm sure the nerfs were completely warranted. Some people who played nothing but an overpowered class for the last 3 months might quit sure, but you can never please those type of players anyways.
Except:
a) they admitted that they nerf/buff classes based on QQ
b) numbers without context mean nothing, shallow posts like yours just show why SWTORs PvP is screwed (in addition to a)
You took the words right out of my mouth.... err.... fingers.
I mean the game had total healing and total damage done listed on every single warzone match that ever occured. All they have to do is add all that data up and average it, with all those hundreds of thousands of people, and they can mathematically determine what needs a nerf and what doesnt.
Why would they listen to forum post whining about classes as opposed to doing it by the numbers?
I haven't been subscribed to SW:TOR for a while now, but I'm sure the nerfs were completely warranted. Some people who played nothing but an overpowered class for the last 3 months might quit sure, but you can never please those type of players anyways.
Except:
a) they admitted that they nerf/buff classes based on QQ
b) numbers without context mean nothing, shallow posts like yours just show why SWTORs PvP is screwed (in addition to a)
Actually, stormseekaz' post isn't shallow at all. What he states is indeed how most good developers balance classes, and is the primary way Bioware SHOULD be doing it as well. However, they have shown time and again that they are absolutely horrible at balancing classes (this even shows in their single-player games).
What's more, Bioware is the first company I've ever seen manage to make 2 identical classes imbalanced (by giving them different animation times). Listening to QQ for balancing is a sure-fire way to get flawed data, and this has happened over and over again in MMOs.
Bioware has the mathematical data to balance their game. They should be using it. Funny thing is, so far (since launch) Bioware has been consistantly 'balancing' the wrong classes.
Just go to forums and look all those "i did 1 million damage/healing" screenshots with glaring red inscription "DEFEAT" at the top.
It IS shallow, and thats why devs that use only numbers cant balance the classes, they cant see big picture (funny that BW talked big picture on the guild summit).
I said before, they seem awfully detached from the actual game and whats going on in practice, theory is all nice and dandy, but its worthless if practice shows otherwise.
Just go to forums and look all those "i did 1 million damage/healing" screenshots with glaring red inscription "DEFEAT" at the top.
It IS shallow, and thats why devs that use only numbers cant balance the classes, they cant see big picture (funny that BW talked big picture on the guild summit).
I said before, they seem awfully detached from the actual game and whats going on in practice, theory is all nice and dandy, but its worthless if practice shows otherwise.
Except... they DO have the context of the numbers.
They have a log of what you did in each warzone. Whether or not they choose to hang onto it is another matter entirely. They can see exactly how much damage / healing a skill can do, how much damage a player is taking, etc. That is literally all they need to balance the classes. I don't see how context taken from some recollection of a match is somehow more reliable than raw hard facts.
Just go to forums and look all those "i did 1 million damage/healing" screenshots with glaring red inscription "DEFEAT" at the top.
It IS shallow, and thats why devs that use only numbers cant balance the classes, they cant see big picture (funny that BW talked big picture on the guild summit).
I said before, they seem awfully detached from the actual game and whats going on in practice, theory is all nice and dandy, but its worthless if practice shows otherwise.
Except... they DO have the context of the numbers.
They have a log of what you did in each warzone. Whether or not they choose to hang onto it is another matter entirely. They can see exactly how much damage / healing a skill can do, how much damage a player is taking, etc. That is literally all they need to balance the classes. I don't see how context taken from some recollection of a match is somehow more reliable than raw hard facts.
And thats exactly why classes are imbalanced in PvP. Testing on dummies and such. Works for PvE, and has absolutely nothing with PvP, they are tuning it for PvE without consideration to PvP.
Thats why i said they are ditching PvP balance and are focusing on PvE ,with PvP as sideattraction for PvEers (somethng like LOTRO, WZs=moors).
Alot of the classes needed nerfs because they were designed around such simple rotations. Of course, I don't play the game anymore, so I would think that they would try to keep the people who were interested in simple character class design.
And thats exactly why classes are imbalanced in PvP. Testing on dummies and such. Works for PvE, and has absolutely nothing with PvP, they are tuning it for PvE without consideration to PvP.
Thats why i said they are ditching PvP balance and are focusing on PvE ,with PvP as sideattraction for PvEers (somethng like LOTRO).
Classes are imbalanced in both. Have been for a long time. While it is more glaring in PvP, the balance in PvE isn't much better.
Alot of the classes needed nerfs because they were designed around such simple rotations. Of course, I don't play the game anymore, so I would think that they would try to keep the people who were interested in simple character class design.
This ^. And they still don't seem to have gotten away from that. Mercs / Troopers are a great example of this.
Some classes like BH powertech and IA sniper were dreadfully boring because it had absolutely no rotations to play while Sorcerers were extremely fun with their rotations.
They never really seemed to understand the importance of making great and fun to play classes at all.
Alot of the classes needed nerfs because they were designed around such simple rotations. Of course, I don't play the game anymore, so I would think that they would try to keep the people who were interested in simple character class design.
DPS output of DPS class should NEVER be dependant on "simplicity of rotation". Have problems with achieving certain DPS on "complex" roataion? Roll something simpler, NOT QQ and get class buffed lol (which is actually happening)
Maximum output of all DPS classes/specs should be realtively close without any regards on "how complex/simple rotation is".
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by mikahr
And thats exactly why classes are imbalanced in PvP. Testing on dummies and such. Works for PvE, and has absolutely nothing with PvP, they are tuning it for PvE without consideration to PvP.
Thats why i said they are ditching PvP balance and are focusing on PvE ,with PvP as sideattraction for PvEers (somethng like LOTRO).
Classes are imbalanced in both. Have been for a long time. While it is more glaring in PvP, the balance in PvE isn't much better.
PvE is irrelevant, you could finish all there is provided you have right role composition and you can always compensate with OP classes/gear.
And as i said they are TUNING it to PvE without any consideration to PvP. They are simply putting PvP on backburner.
I knew 1.2 class balance changes were going to be the end of this game, it usually always is the beginning of the end when developers do massive class balance changes in one patch. I didn't know they were going to be this severe, Bioware managed to actually completely gut over half the classes in this game, seriously *** do you guys play your own game? I suspect massive drops in subscriptions. This has seriously got to be the most retarded decision I have ever seen a developer take so early in an MMO's stage. Classes like scrapper specced scoundrels getting nerfed even more, basically nerfed into oblivion.. Does anyone understand the logic behind those class changes, because I am completely baffled by them.. Some healers getting nerfed (Sorc/sage healing.), for no reason when healers were fine.
[Mod Edit]
Please show a screenie of that mythical 400k dps ans healing sorc. YOU are terribad.
Its funny when terribads start calling other people bads and noobs
I would save your pity for folks buying P2W games like GW2.
TOR will be fine. I dont know how many subs they lost to the PVP crowd, or hardcore, but there should be plenty left to keep BW/LA happy.
It would be nice if they added a Dev from early EQ, so as to help the world immersion. Other than that, I say continue tuning things, and giving us lots of new content.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I've been searching around for combat log parser results, and some results were a surprise and some others weren't. I'm disgusted at how devs said operative/scounderal dps are within 5% of marauder/sentinal and how snipers has an imporvement in damage when the combat logs proved them wrong- a marauder can top 1500+ dps while an operative (concealment) tops around 1200 dps (lethality even less, around 1150), even worse, sniper/gunslingers can't break 1200 dps while sorcerer/sage tops closer to marauder/sentinal between 1400-1500 dps.
Devs telling us things about operative's dps when it's the complete opposite is a dumb thing to do, and buffing the already high dps marauder in 1.2.
Thankfully my only lightsaber wielding toon is a juggeranut and I haven't pvp'd with it in months (although I have a marauder as well, I barely even log on it), and that my sub ended a few weeks ago.
I have played every class and I personally dont see how the Operative and scoundrel are to high of damage dealers. It seemed fine to me but I would suspect that the nerf will not be too large on them. Now playing a sage and a Sorc , being honest with myself the healing was way overpowered. The heal stacks and constant refresh etc. on top of that with biochem pretty much made me inviincible. No need for tanks if I can keep my health full all the time. I think its good they tone down the healing for those two classes. For those who are looking for competition and a level playing field I am sure are not going to have a problem but for those who are the ones who always enter cheats or codes to thier favorite console game and love being over powered in an MMO are going to whine and complain and overreact .....kinda like this thread.
I've been playing an Operative since launch and I thought the 20% acid blade nerf was a little too much....it was needed but didn't need to be that severe. Now with the latest round of nerfs I've cancelled my sub. It just blows my mind that they continue to nerf this class and we do no where near the top dps.
I would save your pity for folks buying P2W games like GW2.
TOR will be fine. I dont know how many subs they lost to the PVP crowd, or hardcore, but there should be plenty left to keep BW/LA happy.
It would be nice if they added a Dev from early EQ, so as to help the world immersion. Other than that, I say continue tuning things, and giving us lots of new content.
A wild Biodrone appears
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Except... they DO have the context of the numbers.
They have a log of what you did in each warzone. Whether or not they choose to hang onto it is another matter entirely. They can see exactly how much damage / healing a skill can do, how much damage a player is taking, etc. That is literally all they need to balance the classes. I don't see how context taken from some recollection of a match is somehow more reliable than raw hard facts.
Your guy has 10,000 and can heal
An enemy deals 10,000 damage over the course of 2 seconds
Another enemy deals 15,000 damage over the course of 45 seconds
Who wins?
There are more dynamics to consider beside "He hit me hard"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I see the vested interest haters are out in full force still......Your not going to kill the game by badmouthing it....Those who like it have stayed....Those who haven't left.....1.7 million people disagree with you....Wow is set to bleed another 4 million this year...It will still be around for quit awhile so take your hidden agendas and can it....BTW have you twittered your bowel movements for the day.....someone might care... *eyeroll
Despite my misgivings about the game. I played 1.2 on the test server and there wasn't a single addition (that I can remember) I didn't like. I can even live with the commando heal nerf cause the mercs got it too.
I've been playing an Operative since launch and I thought the 20% acid blade nerf was a little too much....it was needed but didn't need to be that severe. Now with the latest round of nerfs I've cancelled my sub. It just blows my mind that they continue to nerf this class and we do no where near the top dps.
Anyone else ever notice that when someone's favorite class gets "nerfed" it is always too much and then they post something like this?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Some minor changes were needed, because certain classes/specs were clearly better than others in both pvp and pve. Or had a DPS "rotation" of 2 buttons, like arsenal spec merc. The only odd thing seems to be them nerfing jugg tanks, which are already quite bad.
But they are not making massive class changes, that's what blizzard do and why wow has never been balanced properly. Most of them will not be that noticable really.
Comments
You took the words right out of my mouth.... err.... fingers.
I mean the game had total healing and total damage done listed on every single warzone match that ever occured. All they have to do is add all that data up and average it, with all those hundreds of thousands of people, and they can mathematically determine what needs a nerf and what doesnt.
Why would they listen to forum post whining about classes as opposed to doing it by the numbers?
I haven't been subscribed to SW:TOR for a while now, but I'm sure the nerfs were completely warranted. Some people who played nothing but an overpowered class for the last 3 months might quit sure, but you can never please those type of players anyways.
Except:
a) they admitted that they nerf/buff classes based on QQ
b) numbers without context mean nothing, shallow posts like yours just show why SWTORs PvP is screwed (in addition to a)
Actually, stormseekaz' post isn't shallow at all. What he states is indeed how most good developers balance classes, and is the primary way Bioware SHOULD be doing it as well. However, they have shown time and again that they are absolutely horrible at balancing classes (this even shows in their single-player games).
What's more, Bioware is the first company I've ever seen manage to make 2 identical classes imbalanced (by giving them different animation times). Listening to QQ for balancing is a sure-fire way to get flawed data, and this has happened over and over again in MMOs.
Bioware has the mathematical data to balance their game. They should be using it. Funny thing is, so far (since launch) Bioware has been consistantly 'balancing' the wrong classes.
I have to repeat mysefl it seems:
numbers without context are nothing
Just go to forums and look all those "i did 1 million damage/healing" screenshots with glaring red inscription "DEFEAT" at the top.
It IS shallow, and thats why devs that use only numbers cant balance the classes, they cant see big picture (funny that BW talked big picture on the guild summit).
I said before, they seem awfully detached from the actual game and whats going on in practice, theory is all nice and dandy, but its worthless if practice shows otherwise.
Except... they DO have the context of the numbers.
They have a log of what you did in each warzone. Whether or not they choose to hang onto it is another matter entirely. They can see exactly how much damage / healing a skill can do, how much damage a player is taking, etc. That is literally all they need to balance the classes. I don't see how context taken from some recollection of a match is somehow more reliable than raw hard facts.
And thats exactly why classes are imbalanced in PvP. Testing on dummies and such. Works for PvE, and has absolutely nothing with PvP, they are tuning it for PvE without consideration to PvP.
Thats why i said they are ditching PvP balance and are focusing on PvE ,with PvP as sideattraction for PvEers (somethng like LOTRO, WZs=moors).
Alot of the classes needed nerfs because they were designed around such simple rotations. Of course, I don't play the game anymore, so I would think that they would try to keep the people who were interested in simple character class design.
Classes are imbalanced in both. Have been for a long time. While it is more glaring in PvP, the balance in PvE isn't much better.
This ^. And they still don't seem to have gotten away from that. Mercs / Troopers are a great example of this.
Some classes like BH powertech and IA sniper were dreadfully boring because it had absolutely no rotations to play while Sorcerers were extremely fun with their rotations.
They never really seemed to understand the importance of making great and fun to play classes at all.
DPS output of DPS class should NEVER be dependant on "simplicity of rotation". Have problems with achieving certain DPS on "complex" roataion? Roll something simpler, NOT QQ and get class buffed lol (which is actually happening)
Maximum output of all DPS classes/specs should be realtively close without any regards on "how complex/simple rotation is".
PvE is irrelevant, you could finish all there is provided you have right role composition and you can always compensate with OP classes/gear.
And as i said they are TUNING it to PvE without any consideration to PvP. They are simply putting PvP on backburner.
The only end to a SW MMO is when the producer closes the server. .......
feed your anger, the truth is a lie..
get a grip whiners, nerfs and changes in a new MMO, whod have seen that coming.
To get a good idea on the changes its best to get onto the test server and give it a go.
Please show a screenie of that mythical 400k dps ans healing sorc. YOU are terribad.
Its funny when terribads start calling other people bads and noobs
oh, almost forgot must have; L2P
I would save your pity for folks buying P2W games like GW2.
TOR will be fine. I dont know how many subs they lost to the PVP crowd, or hardcore, but there should be plenty left to keep BW/LA happy.
It would be nice if they added a Dev from early EQ, so as to help the world immersion. Other than that, I say continue tuning things, and giving us lots of new content.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I've been searching around for combat log parser results, and some results were a surprise and some others weren't. I'm disgusted at how devs said operative/scounderal dps are within 5% of marauder/sentinal and how snipers has an imporvement in damage when the combat logs proved them wrong- a marauder can top 1500+ dps while an operative (concealment) tops around 1200 dps (lethality even less, around 1150), even worse, sniper/gunslingers can't break 1200 dps while sorcerer/sage tops closer to marauder/sentinal between 1400-1500 dps.
Devs telling us things about operative's dps when it's the complete opposite is a dumb thing to do, and buffing the already high dps marauder in 1.2.
Thankfully my only lightsaber wielding toon is a juggeranut and I haven't pvp'd with it in months (although I have a marauder as well, I barely even log on it), and that my sub ended a few weeks ago.
I have played every class and I personally dont see how the Operative and scoundrel are to high of damage dealers. It seemed fine to me but I would suspect that the nerf will not be too large on them. Now playing a sage and a Sorc , being honest with myself the healing was way overpowered. The heal stacks and constant refresh etc. on top of that with biochem pretty much made me inviincible. No need for tanks if I can keep my health full all the time. I think its good they tone down the healing for those two classes. For those who are looking for competition and a level playing field I am sure are not going to have a problem but for those who are the ones who always enter cheats or codes to thier favorite console game and love being over powered in an MMO are going to whine and complain and overreact .....kinda like this thread.
I've been playing an Operative since launch and I thought the 20% acid blade nerf was a little too much....it was needed but didn't need to be that severe. Now with the latest round of nerfs I've cancelled my sub. It just blows my mind that they continue to nerf this class and we do no where near the top dps.
A wild Biodrone appears
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Your guy has 10,000 and can heal
An enemy deals 10,000 damage over the course of 2 seconds
Another enemy deals 15,000 damage over the course of 45 seconds
Who wins?
There are more dynamics to consider beside "He hit me hard"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I see the vested interest haters are out in full force still......Your not going to kill the game by badmouthing it....Those who like it have stayed....Those who haven't left.....1.7 million people disagree with you....Wow is set to bleed another 4 million this year...It will still be around for quit awhile so take your hidden agendas and can it....BTW have you twittered your bowel movements for the day.....someone might care... *eyeroll
Despite my misgivings about the game. I played 1.2 on the test server and there wasn't a single addition (that I can remember) I didn't like. I can even live with the commando heal nerf cause the mercs got it too.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Anyone else ever notice that when someone's favorite class gets "nerfed" it is always too much and then they post something like this?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Some minor changes were needed, because certain classes/specs were clearly better than others in both pvp and pve. Or had a DPS "rotation" of 2 buttons, like arsenal spec merc. The only odd thing seems to be them nerfing jugg tanks, which are already quite bad.
But they are not making massive class changes, that's what blizzard do and why wow has never been balanced properly. Most of them will not be that noticable really.