Someone else covered this really nicely too in a thread I feel should be linked.
The whole point of this thread was to get the MMORPG traditionalists thinking, to get people asking whether there could be other demographics out there worth targeting - even to the point where there may be demographics worth targeting more than them. And if, perhaps, just by chance there are games being developed which aren't targeted at MMORPG traditionalists.
A lot of the confusion and anger with Guild Wars 2 is that it's a game which isn't designed for MMORPG traditionalists. ArenaNet has always been honest and up front about this, but it still leaves the traditionalists confused and angry. After so long of being treated as the target demographic, development houses are developing more, and more and ever more games which seem to be moving away from the MMORPG traditionalist demographic.
Some are doing it in small steps, some are doing it in much more wider strides, and this is exactly what this topic was created to look at. The problem is, right now, that MMORPG traditionalists have been so catered to for so long that they've developed an over-inflated sense fo self-entitlement and self-importance. This is what I've been building up to, and I feel that after the entire length of this thread, especially some of the nastier posts, it's pretty safe now to reveal my motivations.
It needs to be understood that not all games are going to be going after the people who played WoW and Everquest. In fact, as time goes on, chsaing those players may become increasingly less desirable. There have been two thoughts going around in development cycles at the moment and they are thus:
If you ignore any of WoW's development tenets, you're an idiot. WoW is what people want, it's what will bring in the money. Develop WoW and you gain success. (These words came from Bioware in regards to The Old Republic.)
WoW players won't easily abandon WoW. But then you have other groups, you have people who are sick of WoW and don't wnat to get caught up in time-sucking progression treadmills any more, you have people who love co-op games but want to see them on a larger scale, and you have lots of people who'd probably dig an MMORPG if you could take the base idea of the MMORPG (lots of people) and take it in a bold, new direction. It's risky, but we think it's even riskier to just be WoW.
And that's how things are right now. With The Secret World, WildStar, and yes, Guild Wars 2 you have developers thinking the latter. With games like The Old Republic, you have developers thinking the former. The truth is is that the market is big enough for all of these games, and Guild Wars 2 absolutely does not have to be a game for obsessive progression fanatics. In fact, they're not the target demographic, not even remotely.
The point of this thread, belabouredly: The market is growing.
What that means is that the market is going beyond just the MMORPG traditionalists. Dio you remember videogames back in the 16-bit era and how they were as hard as nails, and only the most insanely skilled needed to apply? This is because you could have people play a game that was unfun for most people just to beat a level, just to feel they did. This is why difficulty levels were introduced to singleplayer games, difficulty levels that remain to this day.
But the division in MMORPGs isn't skill vs. no skill, it's lots of time vs. small amounts of time. The problem with the progression treadmill is that it's always required massive amounts of time. The reason for this is because in the progression treadmill, you get lots of padding and repeated content which you grind through. Some people may enjoy that and I'm not saying anything about that. But if you take someone from a co-op perspective and ask them to sit down and play a game for six hours to get to where they would be in a co-op game in an hour, then they're likely going to say "Uh, no."
This is why there's been a stark divide between MMORPG players and players of other games. But there's always been that curiosity there, that thought of 'well, if they weren't so grindy and padded then' and that's what the market is opening up to.
This is where we're going.
It's not exclusively where we're going. The sky isn't falling. The world isn't over. You're not dying. It just means that there's more variety for people who want different things. Again, the confusion is that that variety is starting to appear. And thus the traditionalists are asking "Well, why isn't this aimed at me any more?".
It's not all about you. It was for a bit, but not now.
The market is growing.
/thread
(Oops. Haha. Wrong WildStar. I completely forgot that there was a comic named that. Let me fix that.)
The market isn't "growing" based on what you're saying, the "market" "grows" based on popularity. The addition or subtraction of certain features isn't creating any type of "paradigm shift", nor is a particular payment model. The only thing that changes the direction is popularity and ROI which the first guild wars has already proven could be done in the sense of profitability, with no affect to the genre as a whole.
Where we see this type of hybridization - the MMOFPS movement, the ActionMMO movement, spawns from popularity and saturation. It has happened on every platform with every genre, down to subgenre. Take a simple fighter for instance, street fighter, super street fighter, mortal kombat, king of fighters, darkstalkers, and so many branches of the 2D fighter that went on to Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, and even Clayfighter (and a slew of others) which eventually created a separate market for games such as Virtua Fighter and so on. Its the saturation that breeds this change.
Its nearsighted to believe the genre is changing or growing. The shooter market hasn't changed in over a decade, mechanically. It became more popular due to an increase in awareness and advertising. There is no underlying revolution. Every genre and subgenre will ebb and flow, we still have our 2D titles, we still have our arcade brawlers, and they are still topping charts and becoming widely popular alongside the newest 3D story based space adventure RPG.
Stop trying to "freak out the traditionalists", this isn't a new revolution, its just shaping up to be a fun game. If Guild Wars 2 being a fun game is what you consider "clearly working" then I agree. If you think that its somehow forcing the "traditionalist" to change their mind on how games should work, then it will fail miserably. Game design, like fashion and many other fads are cyclical, this isn't remotely close to the end of traditional mechanics, ideas and design.
I really do think it comes down to that. The market is expanding, evolving, and changing. It's really a repeat of what's happened in the videogames market a number of times.
Why aren't shooters all twitch based any more?
Why are RPGs being melded with other genres?
And so on, and so on. We've seen a lot of this, and now it's happening to the MMO genre. The responses to these things are similar as well. It's just a matter of bringing it out into the open and pointing it out. The market does shift, and change, and evolve. Yeah, for a while the MMORPG market was focused like a fine laser on MMORPG traditionalists and thus they expected that every game that came out was primarily attuned to them.
But these days are days of change. I'm glad that things are becoming more varied, really. It means better games for all of us in the long run.
I've been making these same points for years - ever since Everquest first came out, in fact. Back then, you make a post like this, you got banned from the site. True story.
MMOGs have only explored a tiny fraction of their potential simply because of the fundamental design myopia generated by the kinds of people that founded the industry.
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing.
Also, I didn't say that the market was changing completely. That's just a lack of reading comprehension. I know I made a long post but if you're going to hit back with an acidic reply, the least you could do is actually read what I said. What I said was that the market was growing, expanding, and allowing for more variety and flexibility. That doesn't match what you said, nor does it match your understanding of what I said. You're implying that I said that market has evolved into a new beast - and whilst that may happen eventually, that's not what I said.
Furthermore, I'm not trying to freak out traditionalists. I'm spelling it out as it is. If traditionalists are freaking out then it's because of an over-inflated sense of self-importance and self-entitlement. Nothing I say can 'freak them out.' And nor am I trying to change the traditionalist view and get them to adopt GW2 as a game for them... holy crap are you misunderstanding me here or what? I mean, I'm just saying that there'll be games for everyone. Nowhere did I even imply that GW2 would be the only game for everyone, and that traditionalists would have to adapt.
No, I said that the sky isn't falling, and that there would be plenty of games for traditionalists. In fact, I said that it was okay for traditionalists to not like GW2, I support that. I just don't think that people should be self-entitled enough to demand that GW2 becomes a game suited to traditionalists. Again, reading comprehension helps.
I really do think it comes down to that. The market is expanding, evolving, and changing. It's really a repeat of what's happened in the videogames market a number of times.
Why aren't shooters all twitch based any more?
Why are RPGs being melded with other genres?
And so on, and so on. We've seen a lot of this, and now it's happening to the MMO genre. The responses to these things are similar as well. It's just a matter of bringing it out into the open and pointing it out. The market does shift, and change, and evolve. Yeah, for a while the MMORPG market was focused like a fine laser on MMORPG traditionalists and thus they expected that every game that came out was primarily attuned to them.
But these days are days of change. I'm glad that things are becoming more varied, really. It means better games for all of us in the long run.
Yep exactly. To add further....
This sort of thing comes up with every game. Something is changed and the traditionalists freak.
I started with DAOC. I recall lots of complaining that there were no corpse runs like there was in EQ, which was how MMOs were supposed to be played. Everytime a new game comes out and they tweak it its a repeat. Thats not how things were done in the past so thats how we need to do them now.
Who made Richard Garriott and Brad McQuaid gods of MMOs an to determine how MMOs were to be for 15+ years? The simple fact is that change happens if its an internal combustion engine replacing the horse and carriage or a person buying a gem to buy armor replacing the % chance drop after a 5 hour raid. I'm not saying which is better, just that it changes. Years from now there will be an internet argument over a new game that allows for two brain implant ports to be used at the same time and how its unfair for those still using the spinal cord dataport implant used in the previous game.
That's why this thread exists, really. I didn't think I'd be able to get the point over with a simple sentence, it took something much more elaborate and subtle.
The entire point at the end of the day is: Yes, change happens. But the sky isn't falling.
Even if (and let me stress here in case someone freaks out, EVEN IF, IF) things change so much that trationalists feel left out, eventually there'll be niche developers who'll make games that cater to them. I mean, I love jumping puzzle games, and I haven't had nearly enough of those. But look at recent years, we've had Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Dustforce, and so on. It's been fantastic.
There's no need to feel you need to defend your style of game like it's a dying breed. There's no need to try to make GW2 into your style of game. It's all going to be okay.
It's just evolution at work.
Essentially, instead of hating on GW2 for not catering enough - if it bothers you that much, move on. There will be other games, games that cater to you more, games which fit your demographic. Not everything has to.
the OP is indeed a great post and a reality we are facing. People are scared of the mold breaking that GW2 is bringing to us just as much other developers are scared to try and break the mold too. Instead, they accuse ANET of Pay to win (knowing its not p2w) but theres no other way to negatively accuse them so they grab the "there no subscription" feature and use it as an excuse to accuse them of pay to win.
great post, and hilarious answers from the GW2 haters.
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing.
Money is driven by popularity. What is popular becomes oversaturated which gives way to the kind of "growth" you mention. Its because of "traditionalists" that the "market" is where it is. Popularity is whats key here, risks are not. This is why there is a large subset of Free to Play games, they generally do "well" because they make money based on whats popular instead of what is risky and new. This is a big piece of the mobile and social market right now.
Besides, I wasn't commenting specifically on your post that I quoted, but the underlying demeanor of... you. Stating that the game will be a paradigm shift, its sensationalism. While it is clear that - semantics aside - we seem to agree, I'll put it plainly and say that the way you compose your opinion is condescending and pedantic, and I have an underlying urge to argue with it simply based on that. Otherwise, I'd dare say we see eye to eye on many of your points, though I wouldn't exaggerate them nearly as much.
"Traditionalists" as a whole aren't the bad guys here... I think its the online fanatical amplification that gamers seem to be nowadays. It can sometimes be fun to read, but it by no means should be something we base our gaming opinions on.
Everything new I hear about GW2 makes me want to play it less. I honestly don't see why so many of you are so in love with it. It seems to me that this game is actually doing very few things that are actually innovative. It just lacks features other games have and fanboys call in innovative.
What exactly is the carrot on the stick in this game? If you're not into PvP, what else is there to do once you have maxxed out your character and explored the world? Unless I'm missing something, no raiding and no meaningful gear progression just means PVE players are going to be bored to tears once they reach end game.
And don't even get me started on this whole cash shop deal. I can't see how anyone can honestly think that the game is more appealing after hearing about how GW2 will be using microtransactions. It seems no different to me than a F2P game with a purchase cost for the client AND some items in the cash shop that this community would be up in arms about if it were any other game...
At the very least, I think its FAR too early to say that this game is "clearly working". All we have are words from developers and people who have experienced the game at shows/beta tests. Historically speaking, this kind of feedback is almost always overwhelmingly positive. It is only after a few weeks/months of actual play post-release that the hatred begins. I have seen nothing thus far that tells me this game will be any different.
Too many people are conditioned right now. On the facebook webpage, I compared it to the zombie invasion. It's been some years since the zombies (wow, wow clones) invaded and we are conditioned to carry our guns with us (play a certain way, tank - healer - dps, compete all the time, the more xp and gold you get the more powerful you will become. the faster you get these things the better raids and dungeons you can get into for the best stuff).
Guild Wars 2 has built a new city, and wiped out zombies in that region. Yet so many come in armed, hesitant, looking for a reason to compete. ONe one hand everyone wants safety, but on the other hand we fear the unknown. I can't believe I've read threads were people ask "well if there's no trinity, how will i know what to do. How will i play. ". It's the reaction of someone brainwashed and conditioned. Arena gives you cake, and you question how youre going to eat it without diseninfecting it.
AT some point, we stopped caring about innovation for MMOs. The design never changed. It's like if every platform game for 10 years involved someone jumping on enemies heads to defeat them.
At some point we put MMO into a genre, all the stuff you listed, that's an MMO. It's wierd, i don't get it.
I'm not a raider myself ,neither do i agree with the gear threadmill concept. As a friend said "Its like having a book with 2 pages, the first one telling you "turn to the next page" and the second "go back to the previous page", and you actually do as the book says thinking its great".
but i'm not against the "being better" than someone else. Why ? because egalitarianism is not real(nor possible, imo) specially talking about player skill , there are players better than me and i'm better than some, why can't i be recognized as such then ?
Thats nature and life. Why in my MMO everyone must be equals? if i have more time to play chances are i'll be better/stronger/more experienced in that than you. No problem here.
I do agree content should be open to everyone... everyone pays the same for their game, so i MUST be able to experience everything, maybe in a lower difficulty level but still.
The point is, if i did something great i'm very pleased to be recognized by it. If i'm better than you, i'm better than you. (not talking about lvls here).. deal with it, even if we have the same character i'll beat you in every possible way. That does not mean you are useless and will be ignored, and here lies the real problem with the themepark's gear threadmill. You have a number telling everyone if you are capable or not, and that number only grows if you invest time in-game.
The problem isn't the competition but the ways of competing. Take a Shooter for exemple, i can pretty much start playing BF3 today and still do WAAAAY better than higher lvls with "better" weapons. In themparks mmos you just CAN'T compete at all, if gear lvl or the player lvl is higher you are automatcally the loser.
To change that lots of mechanics should be completly redone or every thempark should turn into a Sandbox.
GW2 will be no different, players will demand rewards... if not lvls or gear, something else... and that something else will HAVE to separete them from the majority or the "less capable". And if ArenaNet don't deliver it, people will stop playing.
Thats how nature works... we compete for everything and the rewards are recognition and/or better stuff.
This actually reminds me of a thread I started a couple weeks ago called "Are we getting 'dumber'"
It was all about how each generation seems to think the previous generation's games are "too hard" or "take too long". People who complain about WoW being too encompassing and time consuming don't seem to realize that WoW was the answer to people thinking EQ was too encompassing and time consuming.
So then, will the next generation of games be too encompassing and time consuming for the generation that follows it? Will the one after that? Where will it end?
People DID play EQ and still managed to maintain their families, ties with friends, and full-time jobs. People do so with WoW as well. Career and family didn't suddenly just start happening over the last 10 years.
So, I ask (and this is not an anti-GW2 post so please dont take it as such): Just how much simplification will it take before people start craving complexity again?
Everything new I hear about GW2 makes me want to play it less. I honestly don't see why so many of you are so in love with it. It seems to me that this game is actually doing very few things that are actually innovative. It just lacks features other games have and fanboys call in innovative.
What exactly is the carrot on the stick in this game? If you're not into PvP, what else is there to do once you have maxxed out your character and explored the world? Unless I'm missing something, no raiding and no meaningful gear progression just means PVE players are going to be bored to tears once they reach end game.
And don't even get me started on this whole cash shop deal. I can't see how anyone can honestly think that the game is more appealing after hearing about how GW2 will be using microtransactions. It seems no different to me than a F2P game with a purchase cost for the client AND some items in the cash shop that this community would be up in arms about if it were any other game...
At the very least, I think its FAR too early to say that this game is "clearly working". All we have are words from developers and people who have experienced the game at shows/beta tests. Historically speaking, this kind of feedback is almost always overwhelmingly positive. It is only after a few weeks/months of actual play post-release that the hatred begins. I have seen nothing thus far that tells me this game will be any different.
Its clear you are unable to see that there are players, not like you, who enjoy games for reasons you do not. Pretty simple really. I cant think of a single MMO today that does not take some features from previous MMOs, so I dont see your point there either.
As for innovation, there is a lot of that. The DE's and the WvW have some new features, just becasue you dont like them, doesnt mean they arent there...lol
This actually reminds me of a thread I started a couple weeks ago called "Are we getting 'dumber'"
It was all about how each generation seems to think the previous generation's games are "too hard" or "take too long". People who complain about WoW being too encompassing and time consuming don't seem to realize that WoW was the answer to people thinking EQ was too encompassing and time consuming.
So then, will the next generation of games be too encompassing and time consuming for the generation that follows it? Will the one after that? Where will it end?
People DID play EQ and still managed to maintain their families, ties with friends, and full-time jobs. People do so with WoW as well. Career and family didn't suddenly just start happening over the last 10 years.
So, I ask (and this is not an anti-GW2 post so please dont take it as such): Just how much simplification will it take before people start craving complexity again?
I believe that will start the moment we all agree on a definition for "complexity", when talking about MMO's.
I'm not a raider myself ,neither do i agree with the gear threadmill concept. As a friend said "Its like having a book with 2 pages, the first one telling you "turn to the next page" and the second "go back to the previous page", and you actually do as the book says thinking its great".
but i'm not against the "being better" than someone else. Why ? because egalitarianism is not real(nor possible, imo) specially talking about player skill , there are players better than me and i'm better than some, why can't i be recognized as such then ?
Thats nature and life. Why in my MMO everyone must be equals? if i have more time to play chances are i'll be better/stronger/more experienced in that than you. No problem here.
I do agree content should be open to everyone... everyone pays the same for their game, so i MUST be able to experience everything, maybe in a lower difficulty level but still.
The point is, if i did something great i'm very pleased to be recognized by it. If i'm better than you, i'm better than you. (not talking about lvls here).. deal with it, even if we have the same character i'll beat you in every possible way. That does not mean you are useless and will be ignored, and here lies the real problem with the themepark's gear threadmill. You have a number telling everyone if you are capable or not, and that number only grows if you invest time in-game.
The problem isn't the competition but the ways of competing. Take a Shooter for exemple, i can pretty much start playing BF3 today and still do WAAAAY better than higher lvls with "better" weapons. In themparks mmos you just CAN'T compete at all, if gear lvl or the player lvl is higher you are automatcally the loser.
To change that lots of mechanics should be completly redone or every thempark should turn into a Sandbox.
GW2 will be no different, players will demand rewards... if not lvls or gear, something else... and that something else will HAVE to separete them from the majority or the "less capable". And if ArenaNet don't deliver it, people will stop playing.
Thats how nature works... we compete for everything and the rewards are recognition and/or better stuff.
Way too many assumptions made here, and to top it off you completly ignored all the PvP rewards.
I think there are some PvE rewards too, comming from DE's, but Im not positive about that. I dont see how people can claim to speak for millions of gamers, I find that very odd.
GW1 is still very heavily played, and has 0 gear progression and no real raids. The problem is that gamers have become so focus on - GEAR AND RAIDS - as their end game carrots, and when a game is not going to have them, no one can seem to grasp the idea of it being able to retain any sort of sub numbers. Really it comes down to the fact that MMOs have so entrenched this idea because it has been all they offered in the post-WoW era.
GW1 has remained successful to this day because it shifted the focus of what we could do at max level. It removed the stat gear grind and instead shifted focus into alternative routes. Achievements, expensive better looking armor, PvP ranks, PvE ranks, unlocks for Heroes, titles, events and so on and so forth.
I logged back into GW1 a few weeks ago, and couldn't believe the amount of people that still filled up every town who were all actively still playing. Its hard for us to imagine a game being in it for the long haul that doesnt offer raids or gear, yet what I find funny is all the games that have come out recently that did offer these, people quit because they are so tired of it.
GW2 will be fine because it will incorperate the same goals GW1 did. You don't need to get rewards every time you PvP, some of us are just simply happy having a constant stream of people to kill in an open world environment.
Everything new I hear about GW2 makes me want to play it less. I honestly don't see why so many of you are so in love with it. It seems to me that this game is actually doing very few things that are actually innovative. It just lacks features other games have and fanboys call in innovative.
What exactly is the carrot on the stick in this game? If you're not into PvP, what else is there to do once you have maxxed out your character and explored the world? Unless I'm missing something, no raiding and no meaningful gear progression just means PVE players are going to be bored to tears once they reach end game.
And don't even get me started on this whole cash shop deal. I can't see how anyone can honestly think that the game is more appealing after hearing about how GW2 will be using microtransactions. It seems no different to me than a F2P game with a purchase cost for the client AND some items in the cash shop that this community would be up in arms about if it were any other game...
At the very least, I think its FAR too early to say that this game is "clearly working". All we have are words from developers and people who have experienced the game at shows/beta tests. Historically speaking, this kind of feedback is almost always overwhelmingly positive. It is only after a few weeks/months of actual play post-release that the hatred begins. I have seen nothing thus far that tells me this game will be any different.
Its clear you are unable to see that there are players, not like you, who enjoy games for reasons you do not. Pretty simple really. I cant think of a single MMO today that does not take some features from previous MMOs, so I dont see your point there either.
As for innovation, there is a lot of that. The DE's and the WvW have some new features, just becasue you dont like them, doesnt mean they arent there...lol
I don't think I'm having problems seeing anything. What I'm seeing is a lot of MMO players who are yet again getting completely worked up and over-hyping a game that is probably not as perfect nor revolutionary as they believe it will be...
Don't get me wrong... there are things about GW2 that sound cool to me and I will definitely be checking it out. But I don't see it as some savior of the MMO genre and, quite frankly, I don't perceive it as being radically different from some of the other games on the market. Maybe they will prove me wrong. Maybe not. All I'm saying is it is far too early to declare it as a clear success at this point.
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser @maskedweasel You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing........
That's not called growing. It's called marketing to a niche. Growing would be all inclusive. What you describe is not inclusive but rather a moving to include one group while excluding another. And ultimately that is what GW2 is going to be. a Niche game. It will start out huge. Many will embrace it's changes, many will not. From within the group that does embrace the change. It's going to be short lived. From everything I can see, GW2 has no grind in it. The reward system for the most part is the content itself. So as soon as it begins to feel grindy, you stop. There is a reason people grind heroics in WoW. If you took that reason away, then WoW wouldn't be a grind either. Same for GW2 You run through the content only so many times before you say, "Yeah, that was fun but I don't think I have another XYZ Dungeon run in me." You put the game on the shelf until the next expansion. Then it starts over again.
Will this be successful? I absolutely bet it will. But it's not going to create a "paradigm shift". It will Come out huge but rapidly settle into it's own niche just like it's predecessor.
That's why this thread exists, really. I didn't think I'd be able to get the point over with a simple sentence, it took something much more elaborate and subtle.
The entire point at the end of the day is: Yes, change happens. But the sky isn't falling.
Your subtle use of "paradigm shift" really hit that point home. Thanks.
Even if (and let me stress here in case someone freaks out, EVEN IF, IF) things change so much that trationalists feel left out, eventually there'll be niche developers who'll make games that cater to them. I mean, I love jumping puzzle games, and I haven't had nearly enough of those. But look at recent years, we've had Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Dustforce, and so on. It's been fantastic.
Just to make sure my understanding of what you said, matches what you didn't say, did you say Dustforce is a puzzle game?
It's just evolution at work.
Survival of the most equal. Darwin would have been proud.
Essentially, instead of hating on GW2 for not catering enough - if it bothers you that much, move on. There will be other games, games that cater to you more, games which fit your demographic. Not everything has to.
Exactly. If people want to flaunt $80 monocles, there is going to be a game for them too. But they will still hate us because they know we are not better than them!
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing.
Money is driven by popularity. What is popular becomes oversaturated which gives way to the kind of "growth" you mention. Its because of "traditionalists" that the "market" is where it is. Popularity is whats key here, risks are not. This is why there is a large subset of Free to Play games, they generally do "well" because they make money based on whats popular instead of what is risky and new. This is a big piece of the mobile and social market right now.
Besides, I wasn't commenting specifically on your post that I quoted, but the underlying demeanor of... you. Stating that the game will be a paradigm shift, its sensationalism. While it is clear that - semantics aside - we seem to agree, I'll put it plainly and say that the way you compose your opinion is condescending and pedantic, and I have an underlying urge to argue with it simply based on that. Otherwise, I'd dare say we see eye to eye on many of your points, though I wouldn't exaggerate them nearly as much.
"Traditionalists" as a whole aren't the bad guys here... I think its the online fanatical amplification that gamers seem to be nowadays. It can sometimes be fun to read, but it by no means should be something we base our gaming opinions on.
Yup. well said. Also your previous post.
It's as sad as it is entertaining though, to see people ascribe near godly attributes to a game they are looking forward to and lashing out like snakes at anyone who disagrees with their almost sacred convictions. I have been guilty of that myself (though hopefully not in such an extreme way) so it actually functions as a nice mirror.
There has been a research lately amongst Apple fans, showing that the same parts of the brain which are activated while having religious experiences are showing activity when talking about Apple products. I suspect with games and fanboyism it's no different.
It's that total conviction clouding peoples judgements by exagerating all perceived benefits and obscuring all potential negatives. People associate themselves with a product (or deity for that matter) to such an extent that they feel the urge to attack anyone that attacks their personal "precious". It becomes a piece of yourself and as long as it's still unreleased you are free to project any value and redeeming aspect on it that you see fit.
I'd say it's about time we'd have the game do the talking.
Everything new I hear about GW2 makes me want to play it less. I honestly don't see why so many of you are so in love with it. It seems to me that this game is actually doing very few things that are actually innovative. It just lacks features other games have and fanboys call in innovative.
What exactly is the carrot on the stick in this game? If you're not into PvP, what else is there to do once you have maxxed out your character and explored the world? Unless I'm missing something, no raiding and no meaningful gear progression just means PVE players are going to be bored to tears once they reach end game.
And don't even get me started on this whole cash shop deal. I can't see how anyone can honestly think that the game is more appealing after hearing about how GW2 will be using microtransactions. It seems no different to me than a F2P game with a purchase cost for the client AND some items in the cash shop that this community would be up in arms about if it were any other game...
At the very least, I think its FAR too early to say that this game is "clearly working". All we have are words from developers and people who have experienced the game at shows/beta tests. Historically speaking, this kind of feedback is almost always overwhelmingly positive. It is only after a few weeks/months of actual play post-release that the hatred begins. I have seen nothing thus far that tells me this game will be any different.
Its clear you are unable to see that there are players, not like you, who enjoy games for reasons you do not. Pretty simple really. I cant think of a single MMO today that does not take some features from previous MMOs, so I dont see your point there either.
As for innovation, there is a lot of that. The DE's and the WvW have some new features, just becasue you dont like them, doesnt mean they arent there...lol
I don't think I'm having problems seeing anything. What I'm seeing is a lot of MMO players who are yet again getting completely worked up and over-hyping a game that is probably not as perfect nor revolutionary as they believe it will be...
Don't get me wrong... there are things about GW2 that sound cool to me and I will definitely be checking it out. But I don't see it as some savior of the MMO genre and, quite frankly, I don't perceive it as being radically different from some of the other games on the market. Maybe they will prove me wrong. Maybe not. All I'm saying is it is far too early to declare it as a clear success at this point.
The way I see it, is a lot of MMO players, who are yet again completly worked up over the excitement of other players looking forward to GW2. Continually bashing these players for likeing GW2.
Dont get me wrong, there are things I dont like about GW2, but its still way too early to declare GW2 a clear failure.
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing........
That's not called growing. It's called marketing to a niche. Growing would be all inclusive. What you describe is not inclusive but rather a moving to include one group while excluding another. And ultimately that is what GW2 is going to be. a Niche game. It will start out huge. Many will embrace it's changes, many will not. From within the group that does embrace the change. It's going to be short lived. From everything I can see, GW2 has no grind in it. The reward system for the most part is the content itself. So as soon as it begins to feel grindy, you stop. There is a reason people grind heroics in WoW. If you took that reason away, then WoW wouldn't be a grind either. Same for GW2 You run through the content only so many times before you say, "Yeah, that was fun but I don't think I have another XYZ Dungeon run in me." You put the game on the shelf until the next expansion. Then it starts over again.
Will this be successful? I absolutely bet it will. But it's not going to create a "paradigm shift". It will Come out huge but rapidly settle into it's own niche just like it's predecessor.
Kinda like what WoW did, they chose to move in a direction that excluded many players, focusing mainly on raiding, ultimately creating a niche game.
WoW started out huge, many embraced it, but that is changing fast. Now we have games with a new direction, this is a good thing.
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing.
Money is driven by popularity. What is popular becomes oversaturated which gives way to the kind of "growth" you mention. Its because of "traditionalists" that the "market" is where it is. Popularity is whats key here, risks are not. This is why there is a large subset of Free to Play games, they generally do "well" because they make money based on whats popular instead of what is risky and new. This is a big piece of the mobile and social market right now.
Besides, I wasn't commenting specifically on your post that I quoted, but the underlying demeanor of... you. Stating that the game will be a paradigm shift, its sensationalism. While it is clear that - semantics aside - we seem to agree, I'll put it plainly and say that the way you compose your opinion is condescending and pedantic, and I have an underlying urge to argue with it simply based on that. Otherwise, I'd dare say we see eye to eye on many of your points, though I wouldn't exaggerate them nearly as much.
"Traditionalists" as a whole aren't the bad guys here... I think its the online fanatical amplification that gamers seem to be nowadays. It can sometimes be fun to read, but it by no means should be something we base our gaming opinions on.
Yup. well said. Also your previous post.
It's as sad as it is entertaining though, to see people ascribe near godly attributes to a game they are looking forward to and lashing out like snakes at anyone who disagrees with their almost sacred convictions. I have been guilty of that myself (though hopefully not in such an extreme way) so it actually functions as a nice mirror.
There has been a research lately amongst Apple fans, showing that the same parts of the brain which are activated while having religious experiences are showing activity when talking about Apple products. I suspect with games and fanboyism it's no different.
It's that total conviction clouding peoples judgements by exagerating all perceived benefits and obscuring all potential negatives. People associate themselves with a product (or deity for that matter) to such an extent that they feel the urge to attack anyone that attacks their personal "precious". It becomes a piece of yourself and as long as it's still unreleased you are free to project any value and redeeming aspect on it that you see fit.
I'd say it's about time we'd have the game do the talking.
For a minute there I thought you were talking about WoW...lol
Because that is EXACTLY what they sound like. Every single MMO that has come along is compared to how "awsome" WoW is.
The number one things are the imaginary "seamless world" and then there is the "rich story'. They hang on to those ideas as if they were the godstone of every MMO. Looks like theres a new sheriff in town.
Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser @maskedweasel You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing........
That's not called growing. It's called marketing to a niche. Growing would be all inclusive. What you describe is not inclusive but rather a moving to include one group while excluding another. And ultimately that is what GW2 is going to be. a Niche game. It will start out huge. Many will embrace it's changes, many will not. From within the group that does embrace the change. It's going to be short lived. From everything I can see, GW2 has no grind in it. The reward system for the most part is the content itself. So as soon as it begins to feel grindy, you stop. There is a reason people grind heroics in WoW. If you took that reason away, then WoW wouldn't be a grind either. Same for GW2 You run through the content only so many times before you say, "Yeah, that was fun but I don't think I have another XYZ Dungeon run in me." You put the game on the shelf until the next expansion. Then it starts over again. Will this be successful? I absolutely bet it will. But it's not going to create a "paradigm shift". It will Come out huge but rapidly settle into it's own niche just like it's predecessor. Kinda like what WoW did, they chose to move in a direction that excluded many players, focusing mainly on raiding, ultimately creating a niche game. WoW started out huge, many embraced it, but that is changing fast. Now we have games with a new direction, this is a good thing.
I hope it is. But as we all know good and big are two different things. Also successful is different too.
It's just that to me, this game looks like one that will eventually settle down with a small but fiercely loyal player base. (Yes, a good thing) But hardly a paradigm shift.
Comments
The market isn't "growing" based on what you're saying, the "market" "grows" based on popularity. The addition or subtraction of certain features isn't creating any type of "paradigm shift", nor is a particular payment model. The only thing that changes the direction is popularity and ROI which the first guild wars has already proven could be done in the sense of profitability, with no affect to the genre as a whole.
Where we see this type of hybridization - the MMOFPS movement, the ActionMMO movement, spawns from popularity and saturation. It has happened on every platform with every genre, down to subgenre. Take a simple fighter for instance, street fighter, super street fighter, mortal kombat, king of fighters, darkstalkers, and so many branches of the 2D fighter that went on to Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, and even Clayfighter (and a slew of others) which eventually created a separate market for games such as Virtua Fighter and so on. Its the saturation that breeds this change.
Its nearsighted to believe the genre is changing or growing. The shooter market hasn't changed in over a decade, mechanically. It became more popular due to an increase in awareness and advertising. There is no underlying revolution. Every genre and subgenre will ebb and flow, we still have our 2D titles, we still have our arcade brawlers, and they are still topping charts and becoming widely popular alongside the newest 3D story based space adventure RPG.
Stop trying to "freak out the traditionalists", this isn't a new revolution, its just shaping up to be a fun game. If Guild Wars 2 being a fun game is what you consider "clearly working" then I agree. If you think that its somehow forcing the "traditionalist" to change their mind on how games should work, then it will fail miserably. Game design, like fashion and many other fads are cyclical, this isn't remotely close to the end of traditional mechanics, ideas and design.
@Rhianni32
Thanks!
I really do think it comes down to that. The market is expanding, evolving, and changing. It's really a repeat of what's happened in the videogames market a number of times.
Why aren't shooters all twitch based any more?
Why are RPGs being melded with other genres?
And so on, and so on. We've seen a lot of this, and now it's happening to the MMO genre. The responses to these things are similar as well. It's just a matter of bringing it out into the open and pointing it out. The market does shift, and change, and evolve. Yeah, for a while the MMORPG market was focused like a fine laser on MMORPG traditionalists and thus they expected that every game that came out was primarily attuned to them.
But these days are days of change. I'm glad that things are becoming more varied, really. It means better games for all of us in the long run.
I've been making these same points for years - ever since Everquest first came out, in fact. Back then, you make a post like this, you got banned from the site. True story.
MMOGs have only explored a tiny fraction of their potential simply because of the fundamental design myopia generated by the kinds of people that founded the industry.
Great post! I'll see you in GW2,
@maskedweasel
You may not realise it, but that's partly what I said. Except you believe that the market is purely driven by popularity, that's amusingly naive and silly. No, the market is driven by money, and if a publisher feels that money is drying up, they'll take risks to generate new subsets of the market in order to create popularity. What do you think marketing is for? Hence: The market is growing.
Also, I didn't say that the market was changing completely. That's just a lack of reading comprehension. I know I made a long post but if you're going to hit back with an acidic reply, the least you could do is actually read what I said. What I said was that the market was growing, expanding, and allowing for more variety and flexibility. That doesn't match what you said, nor does it match your understanding of what I said. You're implying that I said that market has evolved into a new beast - and whilst that may happen eventually, that's not what I said.
Furthermore, I'm not trying to freak out traditionalists. I'm spelling it out as it is. If traditionalists are freaking out then it's because of an over-inflated sense of self-importance and self-entitlement. Nothing I say can 'freak them out.' And nor am I trying to change the traditionalist view and get them to adopt GW2 as a game for them... holy crap are you misunderstanding me here or what? I mean, I'm just saying that there'll be games for everyone. Nowhere did I even imply that GW2 would be the only game for everyone, and that traditionalists would have to adapt.
No, I said that the sky isn't falling, and that there would be plenty of games for traditionalists. In fact, I said that it was okay for traditionalists to not like GW2, I support that. I just don't think that people should be self-entitled enough to demand that GW2 becomes a game suited to traditionalists. Again, reading comprehension helps.
Yep exactly. To add further....
This sort of thing comes up with every game. Something is changed and the traditionalists freak.
I started with DAOC. I recall lots of complaining that there were no corpse runs like there was in EQ, which was how MMOs were supposed to be played. Everytime a new game comes out and they tweak it its a repeat. Thats not how things were done in the past so thats how we need to do them now.
Who made Richard Garriott and Brad McQuaid gods of MMOs an to determine how MMOs were to be for 15+ years? The simple fact is that change happens if its an internal combustion engine replacing the horse and carriage or a person buying a gem to buy armor replacing the % chance drop after a 5 hour raid. I'm not saying which is better, just that it changes. Years from now there will be an internet argument over a new game that allows for two brain implant ports to be used at the same time and how its unfair for those still using the spinal cord dataport implant used in the previous game.
@Rhianni32
Completely agree.
That's why this thread exists, really. I didn't think I'd be able to get the point over with a simple sentence, it took something much more elaborate and subtle.
The entire point at the end of the day is: Yes, change happens. But the sky isn't falling.
Even if (and let me stress here in case someone freaks out, EVEN IF, IF) things change so much that trationalists feel left out, eventually there'll be niche developers who'll make games that cater to them. I mean, I love jumping puzzle games, and I haven't had nearly enough of those. But look at recent years, we've had Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Dustforce, and so on. It's been fantastic.
There's no need to feel you need to defend your style of game like it's a dying breed. There's no need to try to make GW2 into your style of game. It's all going to be okay.
It's just evolution at work.
Essentially, instead of hating on GW2 for not catering enough - if it bothers you that much, move on. There will be other games, games that cater to you more, games which fit your demographic. Not everything has to.
the OP is indeed a great post and a reality we are facing. People are scared of the mold breaking that GW2 is bringing to us just as much other developers are scared to try and break the mold too. Instead, they accuse ANET of Pay to win (knowing its not p2w) but theres no other way to negatively accuse them so they grab the "there no subscription" feature and use it as an excuse to accuse them of pay to win.
great post, and hilarious answers from the GW2 haters.
Money is driven by popularity. What is popular becomes oversaturated which gives way to the kind of "growth" you mention. Its because of "traditionalists" that the "market" is where it is. Popularity is whats key here, risks are not. This is why there is a large subset of Free to Play games, they generally do "well" because they make money based on whats popular instead of what is risky and new. This is a big piece of the mobile and social market right now.
Besides, I wasn't commenting specifically on your post that I quoted, but the underlying demeanor of... you. Stating that the game will be a paradigm shift, its sensationalism. While it is clear that - semantics aside - we seem to agree, I'll put it plainly and say that the way you compose your opinion is condescending and pedantic, and I have an underlying urge to argue with it simply based on that. Otherwise, I'd dare say we see eye to eye on many of your points, though I wouldn't exaggerate them nearly as much.
"Traditionalists" as a whole aren't the bad guys here... I think its the online fanatical amplification that gamers seem to be nowadays. It can sometimes be fun to read, but it by no means should be something we base our gaming opinions on.
Everything new I hear about GW2 makes me want to play it less. I honestly don't see why so many of you are so in love with it. It seems to me that this game is actually doing very few things that are actually innovative. It just lacks features other games have and fanboys call in innovative.
What exactly is the carrot on the stick in this game? If you're not into PvP, what else is there to do once you have maxxed out your character and explored the world? Unless I'm missing something, no raiding and no meaningful gear progression just means PVE players are going to be bored to tears once they reach end game.
And don't even get me started on this whole cash shop deal. I can't see how anyone can honestly think that the game is more appealing after hearing about how GW2 will be using microtransactions. It seems no different to me than a F2P game with a purchase cost for the client AND some items in the cash shop that this community would be up in arms about if it were any other game...
At the very least, I think its FAR too early to say that this game is "clearly working". All we have are words from developers and people who have experienced the game at shows/beta tests. Historically speaking, this kind of feedback is almost always overwhelmingly positive. It is only after a few weeks/months of actual play post-release that the hatred begins. I have seen nothing thus far that tells me this game will be any different.
YOuve put my thoughts on paper.
Too many people are conditioned right now. On the facebook webpage, I compared it to the zombie invasion. It's been some years since the zombies (wow, wow clones) invaded and we are conditioned to carry our guns with us (play a certain way, tank - healer - dps, compete all the time, the more xp and gold you get the more powerful you will become. the faster you get these things the better raids and dungeons you can get into for the best stuff).
Guild Wars 2 has built a new city, and wiped out zombies in that region. Yet so many come in armed, hesitant, looking for a reason to compete. ONe one hand everyone wants safety, but on the other hand we fear the unknown. I can't believe I've read threads were people ask "well if there's no trinity, how will i know what to do. How will i play. ". It's the reaction of someone brainwashed and conditioned. Arena gives you cake, and you question how youre going to eat it without diseninfecting it.
AT some point, we stopped caring about innovation for MMOs. The design never changed. It's like if every platform game for 10 years involved someone jumping on enemies heads to defeat them.
At some point we put MMO into a genre, all the stuff you listed, that's an MMO. It's wierd, i don't get it.
I'm not a raider myself ,neither do i agree with the gear threadmill concept. As a friend said "Its like having a book with 2 pages, the first one telling you "turn to the next page" and the second "go back to the previous page", and you actually do as the book says thinking its great".
but i'm not against the "being better" than someone else. Why ? because egalitarianism is not real(nor possible, imo) specially talking about player skill , there are players better than me and i'm better than some, why can't i be recognized as such then ?
Thats nature and life. Why in my MMO everyone must be equals? if i have more time to play chances are i'll be better/stronger/more experienced in that than you. No problem here.
I do agree content should be open to everyone... everyone pays the same for their game, so i MUST be able to experience everything, maybe in a lower difficulty level but still.
The point is, if i did something great i'm very pleased to be recognized by it. If i'm better than you, i'm better than you. (not talking about lvls here).. deal with it, even if we have the same character i'll beat you in every possible way. That does not mean you are useless and will be ignored, and here lies the real problem with the themepark's gear threadmill. You have a number telling everyone if you are capable or not, and that number only grows if you invest time in-game.
The problem isn't the competition but the ways of competing. Take a Shooter for exemple, i can pretty much start playing BF3 today and still do WAAAAY better than higher lvls with "better" weapons. In themparks mmos you just CAN'T compete at all, if gear lvl or the player lvl is higher you are automatcally the loser.
To change that lots of mechanics should be completly redone or every thempark should turn into a Sandbox.
GW2 will be no different, players will demand rewards... if not lvls or gear, something else... and that something else will HAVE to separete them from the majority or the "less capable". And if ArenaNet don't deliver it, people will stop playing.
Thats how nature works... we compete for everything and the rewards are recognition and/or better stuff.
This actually reminds me of a thread I started a couple weeks ago called "Are we getting 'dumber'"
It was all about how each generation seems to think the previous generation's games are "too hard" or "take too long". People who complain about WoW being too encompassing and time consuming don't seem to realize that WoW was the answer to people thinking EQ was too encompassing and time consuming.
So then, will the next generation of games be too encompassing and time consuming for the generation that follows it? Will the one after that? Where will it end?
People DID play EQ and still managed to maintain their families, ties with friends, and full-time jobs. People do so with WoW as well. Career and family didn't suddenly just start happening over the last 10 years.
So, I ask (and this is not an anti-GW2 post so please dont take it as such): Just how much simplification will it take before people start craving complexity again?
Its clear you are unable to see that there are players, not like you, who enjoy games for reasons you do not. Pretty simple really. I cant think of a single MMO today that does not take some features from previous MMOs, so I dont see your point there either.
As for innovation, there is a lot of that. The DE's and the WvW have some new features, just becasue you dont like them, doesnt mean they arent there...lol
I believe that will start the moment we all agree on a definition for "complexity", when talking about MMO's.
Way too many assumptions made here, and to top it off you completly ignored all the PvP rewards.
I think there are some PvE rewards too, comming from DE's, but Im not positive about that. I dont see how people can claim to speak for millions of gamers, I find that very odd.
GW1 is still very heavily played, and has 0 gear progression and no real raids. The problem is that gamers have become so focus on - GEAR AND RAIDS - as their end game carrots, and when a game is not going to have them, no one can seem to grasp the idea of it being able to retain any sort of sub numbers. Really it comes down to the fact that MMOs have so entrenched this idea because it has been all they offered in the post-WoW era.
GW1 has remained successful to this day because it shifted the focus of what we could do at max level. It removed the stat gear grind and instead shifted focus into alternative routes. Achievements, expensive better looking armor, PvP ranks, PvE ranks, unlocks for Heroes, titles, events and so on and so forth.
I logged back into GW1 a few weeks ago, and couldn't believe the amount of people that still filled up every town who were all actively still playing. Its hard for us to imagine a game being in it for the long haul that doesnt offer raids or gear, yet what I find funny is all the games that have come out recently that did offer these, people quit because they are so tired of it.
GW2 will be fine because it will incorperate the same goals GW1 did. You don't need to get rewards every time you PvP, some of us are just simply happy having a constant stream of people to kill in an open world environment.
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
I don't think I'm having problems seeing anything. What I'm seeing is a lot of MMO players who are yet again getting completely worked up and over-hyping a game that is probably not as perfect nor revolutionary as they believe it will be...
Don't get me wrong... there are things about GW2 that sound cool to me and I will definitely be checking it out. But I don't see it as some savior of the MMO genre and, quite frankly, I don't perceive it as being radically different from some of the other games on the market. Maybe they will prove me wrong. Maybe not. All I'm saying is it is far too early to declare it as a clear success at this point.
That's not called growing. It's called marketing to a niche. Growing would be all inclusive. What you describe is not inclusive but rather a moving to include one group while excluding another. And ultimately that is what GW2 is going to be. a Niche game. It will start out huge. Many will embrace it's changes, many will not. From within the group that does embrace the change. It's going to be short lived. From everything I can see, GW2 has no grind in it. The reward system for the most part is the content itself. So as soon as it begins to feel grindy, you stop. There is a reason people grind heroics in WoW. If you took that reason away, then WoW wouldn't be a grind either. Same for GW2 You run through the content only so many times before you say, "Yeah, that was fun but I don't think I have another XYZ Dungeon run in me." You put the game on the shelf until the next expansion. Then it starts over again.
Will this be successful? I absolutely bet it will. But it's not going to create a "paradigm shift". It will Come out huge but rapidly settle into it's own niche just like it's predecessor.
That's why this thread exists, really. I didn't think I'd be able to get the point over with a simple sentence, it took something much more elaborate and subtle.
The entire point at the end of the day is: Yes, change happens. But the sky isn't falling.
Your subtle use of "paradigm shift" really hit that point home. Thanks.
Even if (and let me stress here in case someone freaks out, EVEN IF, IF) things change so much that trationalists feel left out, eventually there'll be niche developers who'll make games that cater to them. I mean, I love jumping puzzle games, and I haven't had nearly enough of those. But look at recent years, we've had Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Dustforce, and so on. It's been fantastic.
Just to make sure my understanding of what you said, matches what you didn't say, did you say Dustforce is a puzzle game?
It's just evolution at work.
Survival of the most equal. Darwin would have been proud.
Essentially, instead of hating on GW2 for not catering enough - if it bothers you that much, move on. There will be other games, games that cater to you more, games which fit your demographic. Not everything has to.
Exactly. If people want to flaunt $80 monocles, there is going to be a game for them too. But they will still hate us because they know we are not better than them!
/Best
Cheopa
Yup. well said. Also your previous post.
It's as sad as it is entertaining though, to see people ascribe near godly attributes to a game they are looking forward to and lashing out like snakes at anyone who disagrees with their almost sacred convictions. I have been guilty of that myself (though hopefully not in such an extreme way) so it actually functions as a nice mirror.
There has been a research lately amongst Apple fans, showing that the same parts of the brain which are activated while having religious experiences are showing activity when talking about Apple products. I suspect with games and fanboyism it's no different.
It's that total conviction clouding peoples judgements by exagerating all perceived benefits and obscuring all potential negatives. People associate themselves with a product (or deity for that matter) to such an extent that they feel the urge to attack anyone that attacks their personal "precious". It becomes a piece of yourself and as long as it's still unreleased you are free to project any value and redeeming aspect on it that you see fit.
I'd say it's about time we'd have the game do the talking.
My brand new bloggity blog.
The way I see it, is a lot of MMO players, who are yet again completly worked up over the excitement of other players looking forward to GW2. Continually bashing these players for likeing GW2.
Dont get me wrong, there are things I dont like about GW2, but its still way too early to declare GW2 a clear failure.
Kinda like what WoW did, they chose to move in a direction that excluded many players, focusing mainly on raiding, ultimately creating a niche game.
WoW started out huge, many embraced it, but that is changing fast. Now we have games with a new direction, this is a good thing.
For a minute there I thought you were talking about WoW...lol
Because that is EXACTLY what they sound like. Every single MMO that has come along is compared to how "awsome" WoW is.
The number one things are the imaginary "seamless world" and then there is the "rich story'. They hang on to those ideas as if they were the godstone of every MMO. Looks like theres a new sheriff in town.
That's not called growing. It's called marketing to a niche. Growing would be all inclusive. What you describe is not inclusive but rather a moving to include one group while excluding another. And ultimately that is what GW2 is going to be. a Niche game. It will start out huge. Many will embrace it's changes, many will not. From within the group that does embrace the change. It's going to be short lived. From everything I can see, GW2 has no grind in it. The reward system for the most part is the content itself. So as soon as it begins to feel grindy, you stop. There is a reason people grind heroics in WoW. If you took that reason away, then WoW wouldn't be a grind either. Same for GW2 You run through the content only so many times before you say, "Yeah, that was fun but I don't think I have another XYZ Dungeon run in me." You put the game on the shelf until the next expansion. Then it starts over again.
Will this be successful? I absolutely bet it will. But it's not going to create a "paradigm shift". It will Come out huge but rapidly settle into it's own niche just like it's predecessor.
Kinda like what WoW did, they chose to move in a direction that excluded many players, focusing mainly on raiding, ultimately creating a niche game.
WoW started out huge, many embraced it, but that is changing fast. Now we have games with a new direction, this is a good thing.
I hope it is. But as we all know good and big are two different things. Also successful is different too.
It's just that to me, this game looks like one that will eventually settle down with a small but fiercely loyal player base. (Yes, a good thing) But hardly a paradigm shift.
OP, thank you for posting such an interesting read. My god that was refreshing on these forums! I loved it.