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Why must PvP be incentivized?
Maephisto
Member Posts: 632
Disclaimer: this post has nothing to do with PVE. Some of the arguments I go against are valid when talking about PVE, but not PvP.
I read a post by Tardcore today where he brought up a good point. PvP has been highly incentivized in past games, to a point where people think that PvP has to be rewarded somehow in order for it to be worthwhile. The argument states since there is no real gear grind, and you are auto leveled to max, then there is no incentive to PvP. With these changes in GW2, you read constantly that PvP is to be done for fun, or for the lulz or whatever. Tardcore, and many others, have asked what 'hook" exists that keeps people playing GW2 pvp for the long run. Given the state of MMO's today thats a fair question. I think a better question is why must your involvement gaurantee a reward, even if you lose.
I have experience working with a number of competitive PvP teams, and I love my OWPvP. Among the people who I have played MMO's with, there seems to be a consensus. We PvP because we like the competition and notoriety from success. That is the reward. A lot of people say they are true pvp'ers, yet a lot of people claim they need some type of reward (be it tiered gear or some useless battlemaster/High Warlord title). You would think the removal of tiered gear from PvP (either competitive or WvW) would be a welcomed idea. When you directly compete against an individual or team, you can now claim absolute victory. There is no excuses for losing anymore.
Despite my comments, I am a little worried about GW2 longevity, because people insist on having a "participation award"?
Am I wrong? ...... Am I in my own little bubble?
EDIT: Maybe I wasnt clear. I am against incentives for pvp (unless it is small group/guild incentives (i.e. influence)). Yet, PvP incentives are almost required and expected. This is where all the people who argue there is no reason to pvp because i am not rewarded with gear or whatever. I fear this mmight have negative implications on GW2. ..... Discuss.
Comments
The PvP does offer rewards though so what your saying I don't believe is completely based on fact. There are many bonuses one can earn for the guild they are currently claiming rewards for. More detail about these rewards can be found on http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page. I understand that perhaps there isn't huge armor rewards and what not, but I think Anet did this on purpose. They didn't want PvP to be one giant grind like it has become in many other MMO's, where you only PvP because you want X item or Y perk. You shouldn't have to have a carrot in front of you, you should PvP because you enjoy it. Also by doing this those individuals who do not enjoy PvP don't feel pressured to do so in order to get an achievement or item etc. etc. I realize that many people may have a problem breaking from the carrot mold, but I personally believe this is a step in the right direction.
Hmm something immediately jumped out at me ("past PVP was always highly incentivized"), case in point: SWG
I don't know about every server being this way, but I know a lot were, non stop large scale PVP, which gained nothing what so ever for years. Even after the downgrades the players carried this mentality over. The guild I was in, in DAOC was no different none of us really cared about "rewards"(realm buffs) it was all about the PVP itself, it was fun, blood-pumpingly (<---is that even a word?) at times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Please re-read my post. Because you and I are in agreement.
In games past, tiered gear was rewarded to those who PvP'ed. Didnt matter if you won or lost, it was a grind. This created a disparity between players who had the gear and those who didnt. GW2 removes this and puts everyone on a level playing field. Yet, as I said in the OP, people have come accustomed to this model. That is what makes me concerned.
I agree, and SWG is considered one of the greater MMO's. However, and sadly, modern MMO's arent catering to the SWG crowd. I didnt want to say it, but games are catering to the post vanilla WoW era crowd (SWTOR case in point), where everything is highly incentivized.
It doesn't really need to be (well that much)
one of the things im most looking forwards to with GW2 - NO LOOT JUNKIES
in either PVE or PVP
Yeah I agree here, it's destructive to PVP to incentivize through progression due to the mentality it creates. Many are conditioned into thinking they need to be rewarded with power, or they simply won't PVP. It becomes meaningless to them. This is the end result of horrible game mechanics no question about it. The second they introduced PVP rewards it became nothing but another grind. It really did put a wedge into the PVP community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
PvP doesn't really need to have any incentives in the form of gear progression. Take GW1 for example. It has a pretty strong competitve PvP element but there is really no real gear incentive. I mean you get titles and you may get some weapons, minipets or consumables from Zaishen chests but besides the unique minipets, they are the same as the stuff you can get from PvE. Yet a lot of people PvP in that game.
Gear incentives for PvP is a bad idea, in my opinion. It brings an undesirable element into PvP where people PvP for loot, instead of PvPing for PvP. It leads to AFKers, emblem farmers, quitters and all around nastiness assiciated with those people. I'll be really happy if I'll never have to see "just let them win!" during a PvP match ever again.
GW2 will be competitive, their will be ranks etc, so i dont need better gear than the others, just to be the best with my team.
Incentives could include leader boards right?
I feel like RPG's are about progression, varrying degrees of it.
We like progression, and ranking is a sort of progress.
Ofcourse. Notoriety based on measurable success is great. Leaderboards are great so long as they measure success based on results rather than timed played.
I think that after all is said and done, most people realize that GW2 is a departure from the established. How players in view this departure will be defined by how players are motived and why they play MMOs in the 1st place. You can't make a radical break from the traditional and expect that everyone is going to embrace that change. There are many who are waiting with baited breath for this change. There are others who need something else to motivate them.
I think the answer to your question is answered with another question.
why do you continue to return to PVP in your current game?
The strange thing is that other genres are starting feel the need to also add these incentives too. This is especially common in the FPS market now. I'm tired of needing to earn rewards and am excited for what this MMO has planned. I have heard that GW2 will offer PvP gear through glory points. Hopefully that will be enough to feed the gear hungry for awhile.
PvP lasts longer with incentives or even a tiny title that you can wear. It increases the playtime and that's not really a bad thing is it? Doesn't GW2 have a PvP reward anyways in the form of glory? Which can be exchanged for unique looking equips? Kind of sad you get some glory for buying the CE or deluxe version though.
I agree with you completely up until your last sentence/question.
I single out PvP because it is a "singular" part of the game. There is, in comparison to the overall game communiuty, a population who desire direct conflict. A group who wants to test their mettle against the skill of others. I seek to demonstrate I am better than you. Arbitrary factors like tiered gear and "time played" shouldnt be a factor. It should only be, "my team outplayed yours" or vise versa.
You make another point that is in concert with others, 'You can't make a radical break from the traditional and expect that everyone is going to embrace that change." This is what I am trying to argue against. This isnt a break from tradition. This is a break from poor game mechanics. RPG's and MMO's from old dont follow this model of "you win even if you lose." It depended on if you had enough skill to progress to the next level.
Today, people pvp in order to complete certain achievements or acquire items. i would like to see a game where we pvp to compete with one another. A true test of mettle and determination.
Yes it does. Glory, to my understanding, rewards on a horizontal basis; not vertical. you will recieve no rewards from glory that gives you an undue advantage versus your opponents.
This type of "CE" reward is common and eqaully insignificant in the face of the amount of glory you will need to purchase anything of value.
This is a video of PvP gear rewards, but they have no stats on them from what I can tell just by looking at that video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryiVAVmciUM
Looks like it should keep people busy.
I found another video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrvV0rKGKw
That video shows some items with stats, but it looks like the only major things are jewels, sigils, and runes. It looks like some pieces of armor give a set bonus, but they have no base stats to make them worth wearing for that purpose.
fair enough.
But I don't really consider everything GW2 does a "break" There are manythings that are simply an improvement.
My question really pertains to the group that is currently motived to PVP to get something.
Some may actually try this change and be swept up in it and embrace it. Some may not. There are those who will feel cheated for having participated and not recieved their due reward.
EDIT:
I'll rephrase my question. Is your heart in the PVP itself or in the reward it brings?
IMO, the rewards of PvP is the satisfaction of defeating my oponent in direct combat/competition. I feel there really is no other reward. When you play monopoly, or football or baseball, there is no other reward besides the fact you beat your opponent. You then progress to a greater opponent. If you lose, you lick your wounds and criticize your performance. You learn from your loss and, hopefully, overcome your opponent. The third time I have posted this link. It sums my views up the best way possible.
I think PVP in an MMO should be incentive based. So if you had someone say "You got two options...you can play video games cause you enjoy them..and that's it. Or you can play video games because you enjoy them and get paid for it." Assuming its that simple..which in regards to GW2 it is...which would you choose??
Or lets think of it another way....WVWVW PVP requires a lot of players to be fun, PVPers according to all statistics given by major MMOs, PVPers are a minority. (I am a PVPER btw). I define PVPers as players who have little to no interest in PVE, and play games solely based on how PVP is handled.
I think "most" players enjoy PVE, and consentual PVP but in a wide variety of doses. Some people in this majority will play PVP more often than PVE, and others may PVE more. Most players fall into this bracket in my opinion. ( I am pulling this from around 20 years of playing MMOs). So assumimg I am right, most of your players fall into this. Even people who claim to be hardcore PVE/RAID often end up in this category if the PVP is strong enough, and has something in it for them. Same in reverse for PVP folks..if the PVE content is strong enough..PVPers will do it on occasion.
Which leads me to the main point...if you give incentives for PVP that not only appeal to your PVP fans, but also give rewards that even benefit the PVE folks...then everyone has a justified incentive to want to PVP. Even the PVE people who hate PVP, will at least maybe start rooting for their own PVPers instead of hating them for their different preferences. The better the PVPers do, the more bonuses the PVE folks get. It might even get to the point where the guilds with mixed PVE and PVP folks..when PVP folks getting slammed,and they need more ppl cause we losing a lot of keeps (and bonuses), and ask their PVE guildmates for help...well now theres a reason for them to possibly get involved. Sure some PVE folks will go for it..some won't.
But isn't the >>possibility<< of bringing together both PVErs and PVPers together united behind one goal on occasion to fight for a common cause worthwhile? I mean these bonuses benefit PVE as much as PVP. Some bonuses more so. I am not saying this will make PVE people turn into PVPers...but it might get them to break out of their shell once in awhile and give it a try. If they have fun doing it...they might just find that PVPer inside them. Incentive PVP can help bring PVP and PVE folks together and form a better community. It's no guarantee, but its the closest thing I've seen to it.
Dark Age of Camelot...I am sure most folks have at least heard of that game. They had the same concept, and I remember when ppl shouted on world chat we were losing and it was putting our major bonuses in jeapoardy...believe me a lot of PVE folks came, it wasn't just the hardcore PVPers out there. It's the closest I have ever seen a server unite for any purpose at all. Regardless of PVE or PVP preference.
I will hope that is what incenstive PVP brings into GW2...I plan on being there to find out.
Edit: One incentive I am AGAINST...is gear...PVP incentives should not be gear oriented...I am only ok with incentives that benefit everyone...like bonuses for eveyone on the server type incentives that GW2 employs.
Death before dishonor.
To get into psychological mumbo jumbo...have you heard the claim that everything every human does, we do for a reason? It's true. We think we control our lives, but deep down to the core, we are reactionary. We are all just responding to stimuli. Your life is a whole humongous chain of responding to stimuli.
So, why do we need incentives to PVP? Everyone has a reason...to have fun...many, I think the vast majority, have fun when they get stuff for doing something. That's what keeps them doing something...that's the stimulus...to simplify. *hiccup*
I am a PvP'er. I crave the thrill / challenge of facing real people in whatever online game I am playing... I'm not much for co-op games. Something I am not is a "Griefer". I don't get enjoyment out of killing people in MMO's just to kill them... their death / my victory needs to have some meaning... something more than "Points" that go towards better gear or w/e else most games seem to have. Be it I killed someone to help defend a fortress that gives my people an advantage in the open world... or I've found myself climbing a competitive ladder with my friends... THAT is meaningful PvP. The kinda of PvP that could potentially keep me playing for a very long time IF the PvP is meaningful / balanced / fun enough.
Battle grounds are not enough... nor is basic open world mechanics. GW2 seems to be going in a good direction for people like myself however. Guild VS Guild should be interesting... sounds as though there will be a competitive field to the game otherwise known as E-Sports. If so I'll be hooked.
- Competitive Gamer
Full Sail University - Game Design
I gotta hit the sack. i will start tomorrow replying to those who have posted above. I think this is the start of a great conversation.
It is now, and a damned fine one at that.
In gw1 it was some of the most rewarding pvp even if you never got any cool gear/titles etc.
I do think all pvp games must have some sort of ranking system, if all pvp is just randomly being qued with people then it becomes boring. But in gw1 it was so fun to do ranked guild matches and level up as a team and also to do HoH with groups.
Being rewarded doesn't have to be gear/titles, but you have to have SOMETHING like a ranking system or else there's no point. and gw2 has that so im happy.
I'm a PVE'r at heart. But if a call came out that our server needed able-bodied players to help in the WvW, I would go in a flash.
Server pride will be a big incentive to most players.
I would suggest to ANET though, that if your server wins...there be a special 'celebration' for the server where folks can come and hang out, tell war stories, dance, and pick up a vanity tabard (or something) that shows you were a winner. You keep the tabard until you lose in WvW.
The cities should fly flags and have banners showing the server is a winner.
There has to be some way to acknowledge the efforts of the winning servers...that is visible to everyone.