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FFA PVP w/full loot isnt only for the hardcore
xDayx
Member Posts: 712
I consider myself a casual hardcore player. I like what is considered to be hardcore mmo's but only have an hour or two to play at night. I think there is alot of misconceptions about FFA pvp and loot. Someone who isnt acclimated to it may think....
"You die and you lose all your equipment? Thats dumb. Why work for it?"
When in actually what is happening is...
-Soandso hits you for 25 damage to the torso! (You have gotten better at Defense!).
-You circle around to see how many are attacking you and measure up your enemy. You notice there are 2 people wearing pretty nice armor by the color of it. 1 still far away. You sprint to your horse. (You Running skill has increased!)
-Soandso hits you for 40 damage to the head. (You have died!)
So what happened?
-Your skill points went up and can never go back down unless you want them to. No other player can ever take that away from you. The next time someone tried to damage you they wont do as much because your skills points are higher.
-Perhaps you were in infamilar territory which in the future you will remember to keep a closer eye out for enemies. Especially people in the guild of your attacker. You may want to scout out shortcuts next time.
-So the next time you can apply what you learned. Later on when your skill points are capped,and you know your environment, you will have no trouble obtaining more armor, or materials.
In addition, most FFA-pvp games I know the items have durability on them anyway. So even if you get an item and dont lose it, it will decay away anyway. The trick to becoming leet is to learn the best way to have a steady stream of items or gear to use if you do happen to lose them whether its by crafting or knowing the right player that will make it for you.
So in summary, you may lose your stuff that is going to break anyway but you can never lose the skill points and knowledge you gain.
PS- in addition you dont have to play one 40 hrs a week to enjoy it. Just set yourself a goal and you will eventually achieve it.
Comments
Seems to me that you are confusing skill based advancement and FFA PvP.
I cant think of one FFA pvp/full loot that is not skill based. My point was if someone does kill you you dont lose your skills.
Examples: EVE, Mortal Online, DF, Xsyon, Fallen Earth, Wurm, UO the list goes on.
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
im casual hardcore as well. i dont have very much time to spend on playing mmorpgs but i like sandbox games and pvp.
i think item decay is what gives casual players a chance. you have a certain amount of play time before an item breaks and in this time you need to find a replacement item, play well and you get a better item, play poorly and you get a weaker item. invest as much time as you want, but you wont get stronger until you play smart.
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
FFA PvP with full loot isnt hardcore at all. Its on the contrary very casual. Since you cannot gain anything permanently, there is no longtime goal in the game.
Same goes for likewise ideas, such as permadeath. It just means you start a game, play for a while, then game over. So do you start again or do you stop now ?
Darkfall is very good playable as a casual you don't have to be a hardcore playing that game thats a mis assumption about the game.
Whole problem with free for all and full loot is, firstly people are way to much attached with there pixels on the screen secondly they just dont wanne be disturbed ganked pked and die while running around or hunting mobs and risk losing all these prescious pixels.
99% of gaming community wanne be left alone and only pvp in instance.
Darkfall is great game as long you dont be so damn upset losing some computer generated pixels.
All these fanatic bragging pvpers in most themeparks are pussy's when they ask playing a free for all full loot game they carebarely say no, there are just to many carebears out there im affraid.
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i know what an analogy is. your analogy was terrible.
the argument you are trying to make is so pointless. losing items is meant to result in a net loss for the character that lost the items. that is the whole point. the lose/gain ratio is not meant to be equal. OP was just pointing out that next time you will know better.
i think you have problems comprehending what others are trying to say and you tend come off as a bit vague/esoteric when communicating your own. just my opinion.
doesnt it take years / hours of botting to get your skills maxed in that game?
Nah I just think your comprehention level is pretty low specially compared to your recent posts and questions. They do have good entertaiment value though
For FFA full loot MMOs to be casual. Gear has to be easily obtained. The easier the more casual. If gear is easy to aquire then said value is low. It may have a good value because they are in part what determines the outcome of a fight but still has a low arbitrary value. Hence gaining a skill point is a near equal gain vs what was lost.
That's the only way you can weigh if a FFA PvP full loot game is casual or not
no. comparing something as trivial as a video game item to a credit card is a plain bad comparison. you should have picked something similarly trivial (eg tube of superglue) in order to make a good analogy (but a terrible argument).
just accept it your analogy was terrible. most probably reason; you were trying to hard to make an argument that should really be made because it is equally terrible.
I think you need to look up the definition of an analogy.
Here's one from a 2 second google search: an analogy is a comparison between two different things in order to highlight some point of similarity.
In this particular analogy the main similarity is loss vs gain. Most users on this site has a firm grasp of abstract reasoning but all your questions and a lot of your answers shows a severe lacking in this area. This is why a lot of people tend to tell you, you are wrong. It's a reoccuring trend with your posts
im sorry but i dont really see much similarity in losing a credit card and losing a video game item. yes im losing something but im pretty sure everyone here is pretty fucking aware of that. dont you think your analogy is pretty pointless if its purpose is to highlight a similarity that everyone is already of aware of ie. the concept of net loss (THE WHOLE POINT OF DEATH IN FOOL LOOT PVP)
please read this 10 times:
WE ARE AWARE THAT LOSING ITEMS IN FULL LOOT PVP INVOLVED MORE LOSS THAN GAIN. WE DO NOT NEED AN EXAGGERATED ANALOGY TO UNDERSTAND THIS.
That's because the damage done to you is not similar which is why it's confusing you. If you lose your credit card because somebody stole it then you are in a bigger jam than if somebody killed you in PvP and took your items. The analogy was not meant to show they are qually bad. It was meant to illustrate a similarity inferred in the conclusion that losing one item does not make up for gaining something else.
We are also not discussing what the point of Full loot PvP is even though you keep bringing that up. We are talking about if it's casual or hardcore. Get in the discussion already. It's like talking to a bag of coffee here. I think I'll let you have your last say and let that be that
Exactly. FFA PvP is as niche as one can get in a game. You like itm great but only about 2000 other people do and no decent developer is going to risk millions into a niche game like that.
There is a way to make skill stand out without resorting to the gank fest and anti-social mentality that FFA PvP brings about.
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Heh , the problem with full loot PVP in a fantasy MMO is that it will never work , the vast majority of players don't like the idea of boss farming for hours for a certain set of equipment and then lose it all to PVP.
Unless they use some of EVE's-Online economy and mind set. In EVE online there isn't any boss farming for special equipement and only a fool would PVP in highly expensive modules. Doing money in EVE is pretty easy so replacing your losses isn't that bad. EVE-Online is the only MMO I've played where getting owned in PVP can be a funny thing because you don't get that feeling of "wasted hours" on gear farming. So when you get blown to pieces you giggle , unlike the rest of the MMO world where you'd probably commit suicide
no shit losing items isnt completely compensated for through gains elsewhere. when did OP ever say that was the case. he merely pointed out that next time you will know better. trust me, i have no problem understand your analogy, its just that its completely ridiculous as everyone is already aware that losing shit sucks and you really didnt hold back when it came to exaggerating.
ofc full loot pvp wont work in themepark grinders. i think one of the reasons that people are turned off by the though of full loot of pvp is that they cannot fathom a game which isnt about gridning raids 4 hours a day for months to get geared up.
Sure you dont loose levels either or whats in your bank. I'm still not sure that is a justification for full loot (or FFA pvp) in and of itself. t's really apples and oranges. I liked Asheron Calls (Darktide) system, arguably not full loot as you might keep something but it worked very well.
I agree things needn't be hardcore. Essentially developers need to devalue what you loose (your 'stuff') to the point it is not too painful to loose it. Of course 'hardcore' is often synonomous with 'self harming masochist' and those hardcore players will not be happy unless you loose something that took a month to get in the first place.
Sadly there have been no recent PvP games (actually very few ever) where the devlopers actually had a clue about game design. I offer Earthrise, Mortal Online & Darkfall as evidence of this. This dosent help 'sell' the idea of FFA full loot if the game design is just horrible.
Read the OP. Found his pic.
Full Loot and FFA is all about Risk vs. Reward.
It is about preventing senseless Kamikaze runs.
It is about to give some simple pvp more meaning.
It is about to spread out danger and difficulty to every task.
It is about balanced ingame economy (with item decay hand in hand)
It is about dynamic
...
Lets look at it a little bit closer.
Dynamic and balanced economy?
Every item, every object is not for eternity. Everything will decay, be stolen or looted at some point. And you have to put effort into it to hold up a status quo. If you do nothing you will lose overtime, either because your values decay or get stolen/looted.
This is important for balanced economy. Without it, inflation will set in, and everything will either lose over time on value, or you dont have any stable ingame economy(and it is not needed in a themepark game). This is the first you have to have for a game with a economic simulation and economic gaming (trading, crafting, gathering, growing and all that stuff) And all that is just important in a virtual world or more sandbox like game, where there is more than just combat and mob killing.
And on the other hand with ffa pvp + full loot you will give any resources and withit resource gathering more value, or give it value at all to begin with. To gather resources is valueable, because it is a dangerous task, you have to know the spot, you have to be aware for the potential enemies(robbers/pks), and/or you have to protect the gathering by itself and the transportation of those values. The same is true for growing stuff, as long as you have to do something to protect them.
With this gained value for resources also the value and meaning of crafting will rise. Crafters have to pay a good value for the resources, because they are just not grinded, they are indeed hard-earned. The law of supply and demand will set in, because the resources are hard earned(dangerous to gather) and the demand for new items(armor, weapons and everything else) is steady, because of item loss(decay and/or looted/stolen), and withit crafting, manufacturing, agricultural business will be much more meaningful and rewarding(for the player), because there is a real and steady need for it.
Withit you will have a meaningful and well working ingame economy, and a dynamic world, because values/objects/items will change over time, some will vanish other emerge. In this economical closed circuit a real virtual world can evolve. I personally would even add, that housing, fortresses, castles, cities, farms should be included in that circuit, they should also decay and able to be destroyed for such a ever changing world. (of course, it should not be that easy, and especially when you are not online, but that is just a issue for good game design and game balance)
So what did i wanted to say?
FFA PVP and full loot is not about combat, it is not first and foremost for player vs player in combat situation(where usually pvp refers to in a themepark game) it is about the bigger picture, it is about the pvp in trading, economic or just game of life (and in this case your virtual life in a virutal world).
So FFA PVP and full loot in WoW(themepark with item grinding) is utterly out of place, but it is a important factor to create a virutal world/sandbox, to deliver more gameplay options beside combat. So yes it isnt as much hardcore in the first place, but on the other more harcore, because it becomes much more involving. well.. even hardcore is just a word outstanding for definition.
The problem with most of those games is just that almost noone got it right (good game design) or balanced, except of EvE i would say.
I read your full post even though I only quoted this part
There's nothing really to add to your post, you just described how full loot ties into the bigger picture which I can only agree with. I'm just not quite sure why you are replying to my post with it.
The discussion is about, if full loot is only for the hardcore. My reply to that is this. If a person can kill you and take all your things, no matter how this ties in with the global echonomy or "bigger picture" will still be considered a hardcore mechanic because people generally don't find it a fair tradeoff regardless of how why and when. The only way you are going to make it a casual feature, is by trivializing gear and the time it takes to get it. When I say people I talk about those that avoid those games.
The problem isn't in lack of understanding why the mechanics are there but to try and tell the OP and others that these are niche mechanics for a reason. That reason isn't because people don't "get" how it ties in with the echonomy or the echosystem or what you learn after you have been beaten. The OP isn't wrong in his description of events.
Can you make a FFA full loot game work for the casual crowd? Probably if they are given proper option to avoid it entirely
So I say again. Learning to avoid a certain area, gaining some skill points or whatever the OP can come up with will not change the fact that it's a hardcore mechanic. A lot of people don't want to play sandboxes because of that mechanic alone. You and others which cling to this will never understand, that no matter how you penalize the killer by adding bounties or screw with their faction or throw them in jail or whatever mechanic you can come up with. There will be people that simply don't want to lose their gear period. The only appropriate response to that is this "this game is not for you then". You can't fix it with arbitrary mechanics. Only if gear is piss easy to regain within a small time frame
Well, I think you have to at least give people the option to more or less control their level of risk much as EVE does.
Another idea that I thought worked well was Shadowbane's system of letting a dead player keep all of equipped gear, but make anything in his backback (including gold) lootable. That way you could still wear your best stuff, making you as competitive as possible but putting your basic wealth (in fhe form of looted gear or gold) at risk which was a good compromise.
As far as people telling me I shouldn't care about "pixels in a game", please understand what they actually represent to most folks, and that is time spent.
Time is our most valuable commodity, and I've always told people that while I might earn XX dollars per hour when at work, my free time was always valued at over 100.00 hour since I had so little of it. (hyperbole I know, but you get the point)
So if I spend a couple of hours trying to acquire something in game and you manage to take it away from me by ambush (and usually totally unfair advantage) you've stolen far more than pixels, you've taken two hours of time that I value most dearly.
So I'm not really interested in letting you do that, especially in an unrestricted environment that totally favors the predator vs the prey.
In fact I would argue that it is the PVE'er contentedly farming in the world who is really hardcore since they are risking everything only to have it taken away more often than not by a Pvp'er who is normally risking very little.
Who is really the "carebear" in this scenario?
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I think Shadowbane was on to something too. Even EQ with their 1 item loot rule. I would play games with mechanics like that