No, games that don't try and foster good communities ruin communities..
I found the PvP folks in DAoC much more enjoyable than say the PvE folks in a cut throat gear centric game like World of Warcraft.
In DAoC , you worked with your faction to defeat a common enemy, in WoW, it seems like you compete against your faction to get your next epic, by any means neccasary.
In real life you cannot run up and gank people to be an asshat. Why? Because either:
a) they might turn around and stop you, and the risk involved with that prevents the pussy gankers from even attempting
b) even if they gank, they'll get tossed in jail and b*tt raped by bubba, again likely peventing them from even attempting in first place
In video games, they allow the closet virgins to run around anonymously and do whatever they want w/o penalty or risk. If they add risk and penalty in line with real world reality PvP will be acceptable and good.
I love PvP in games like League of Legends and others DESIGNED to support the gameplay. But dumping PvP into an MMO has always been horrible. Gangbangs might be fun in a sexual sense but not in a you have to spend 10 min running back to your corpse only to get camped by a group of d-bags...
While not every PVP'er is bad (nor every PVE'er good), the more prevalent PVP is in a community, the more likely it is to be a bad community in my experience. Even something as small as joining a PVP battleground in WoW is enough for one to realize JUST how bad the pvp mentality makes people act...and these are people that are ostensibly on your 'team'!
Across all the games I've played, while I've met a couple of quality people who happened to pvp, I've seldom met pvp'ers who happened to be quality people. I wish it weren't so; there was a (short) time where pvp sounded somewhat interesting, but that day is looooong gone now. It's been ruined for me.
Pure anarchy where everyone kills anything that moves for no reason has proved never to work.
uh, no it hasn't. Oh sure, it might not work for you but I say it works. Working as intended.
And perhaps, working as intended for people who like that type of thing.
And that's the problem, too many people who have no business playing ffa pvp games "playing ffa pvp games".
If I play tackle football and get tackled and hate getting tackled then who's fault is that?
I think players need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. For the record, my first mmo was lineage 2, I did my due dilligence, knew it was ffa pvp and a grind and wanted to try it anyway regardless of the issues. I had no intention of staying more than a week. Just wanted to see what an mmo was like. I stayed for 4.5 years.
I'm a bit tired of the victim card. People need to step up and know what they are getting into or pass and wait for something that will satisfy them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just make the same gear you PVE with the same gear you PVP with. have a robust crafting systems to provide the armros/weapons/gear and make the only viable PVP world PVP.
It's really not that hard. PVPers will have to craft or dare i say run dungeons. the orginal problem was they allowed for seperate playstyles and that divides communitys.
Allow a guild vs guild system then let these guys go at it. it's like the old west were they meet at high noon, could be a big server event everyone could get in on if they choose.
To many resources wasted on making seperate gear and instances. plus the balance they claim has to be made, changes playstyles to much when a nerf lands. with only one way to balance PVE it makes life better for both.
It has always added to the community in every game I have played, from FFA full loot to bog standard zone/arena pvp games.
You get arsehats regardless of pvp or pve, in fact some of the most obnoxious players I have come across have been pvers in non open world mmos who get off on the ability that they can try annoy the hell out of someone without much reprisal.
People tend not to spam emotes at you when you can smash them into the ground.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
In my experience, games with no reprocussions for PVP or those that have it as a side attraction (WOW, Rift) the community and a-hole factor is astounding.
Surprisingly in games where the PVP is nearly unrestricted, but has consequences and is the main factor in the game (Like EVE) the community (while eager to blow you up or scam you) seems at a macro level, more mature and less ahole factor.
But thats just been my own personal experience and observation.
I hated PVP and was as big carebear in other games for years for that very reason. I decided to try EVE and was expecting the worst, but was really really surprised.
question is broad. depends on how the game is made.
played games that had nothing but pvp and lasted for months to years due to the game being durable enough to handle retention better than others.
then theres games with pvp that fall into the same soul sucking pitfalls as other games with pvp slapped on them.
they dont think over the long term implications, and simply let it take its course.
launch players reaching to highest gear/lvl possible.
launch players battling it out with their guilds, and eventually boil down to who's the best, and then the best players and secondary players form together to make one "super pvp guild"
a second war follows, the super pvp guild roffle stomps the rest - those that cannot compete retire to a pve server or unsub to another game.
new players looking to try their hand in pvp on a pvp server, either go through the multi month gauntlet of getting their face kicked in until they are "decent" enough , or dont both and move to a pve oriented server.
barring if the company litters their game with nerfs and band aid patches, or lack of expansions. pvp communities die out from repetition and move on to something else.
Again -- from the very beginning it depends on how the game is made, ive played pvp games that, once again avoids the pitfall above, and games they dont, the community, whether if full of ass to shit talkers, will establish themselves over time with respect if the game is good/solid enough to allow it.
IMO, I have yet to see a community with emphasis on PvP that didn't have an over-abundance of mean-spirited jerks trolling chat and forums.
Are there a couple of exceptions? Sure. But the OP is asking about communities, not 1-on-1 interactions. And the quietly capable PvPers tend to not post as much or as loudly as the others. The competitive aspect of PvP just seems to bring out the worst in some folks, and they end up having a huge influence on the folks around them. I've only studied bullying a little, but heavy PvP communities seem steeped in it.
IMO, I have yet to see a community with emphasis on PvP that didn't have an over-abundance of mean-spirited jerks trolling chat and forums.
Are there a couple of exceptions? Sure. But the OP is asking about communities, not 1-on-1 interactions. And the quietly capable PvPers tend to not post as much or as loudly as the others. The competitive aspect of PvP just seems to bring out the worst in some folks, and they end up having a huge influence on the folks around them. I've only studied bullying a little, but heavy PvP communities seem steeped in it.
Your mistake is in seeking some universal community where everyone gets along. No such universe exists. Communities exist on a far smaller and much broader level than the 2,000 people that happen to be online at the same time. The exception is when the server population is small enough to be its own community and, as a fan of Dunbar, I put that number around 150-200.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
and intrestingly the science backs me up on this. Competitive communties are far less efficient then collaborating communities, which speaks volumes about our business world
Ha...
It's really something special when I can laugh and want to pull hairs out at the same time.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Just make the same gear you PVE with the same gear you PVP with. have a robust crafting systems to provide the armros/weapons/gear and make the only viable PVP world PVP.
It's really not that hard. PVPers will have to craft or dare i say run dungeons. the orginal problem was they allowed for seperate playstyles and that divides communitys.
Allow a guild vs guild system then let these guys go at it. it's like the old west were they meet at high noon, could be a big server event everyone could get in on if they choose.
To many resources wasted on making seperate gear and instances. plus the balance they claim has to be made, changes playstyles to much when a nerf lands. with only one way to balance PVE it makes life better for both.
The concept of separate gear for separate tasks is lost on the post-WOW crowd.
JJ, it's separate gear because it's a completely different type of opponent. In most modern MMOs, attack type and tactics really don't mean anything - it's just a game of timer-watching whack-a-mole in a three tier hotbar. In older MMOs, you used faster weapons for faster enemies, cold weapons on fire enemies, holy weapons on undead enemies, etc.
A boss mob usually has high resistance, high HP and is pretty bad at combat. A PvPer has average resistance and HP, and is usually significantly smarter about combat than the boss mob. The player that uses the same equipment to fight PhYsCoKiLlEr [PK] as he does to fight Crogonor the Orc Brute Overlord [Boss] would be annihilated by one of the two, if not both in older MMOs.
Now, eh... damage type doesn't make a difference, tactics don't make a difference. You just manage timers. Even with the total sterility of today's combat, you still have higher stats on the boss and (often) smarter combat from PvPers. If the game's gear doesn't support that, then the game probably has a crappy experience in one of the two aspects.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
No, games that don't try and foster good communities ruin communities..
I found the PvP folks in DAoC much more enjoyable than say the PvE folks in a cut throat gear centric game like World of Warcraft.
In DAoC , you worked with your faction to defeat a common enemy, in WoW, it seems like you compete against your faction to get your next epic, by any means neccasary.
It's very simple.
In real life you cannot run up and gank people to be an asshat. Why? Because either:
a) they might turn around and stop you, and the risk involved with that prevents the pussy gankers from even attempting
b) even if they gank, they'll get tossed in jail and b*tt raped by bubba, again likely peventing them from even attempting in first place
In video games, they allow the closet virgins to run around anonymously and do whatever they want w/o penalty or risk. If they add risk and penalty in line with real world reality PvP will be acceptable and good.
I love PvP in games like League of Legends and others DESIGNED to support the gameplay. But dumping PvP into an MMO has always been horrible. Gangbangs might be fun in a sexual sense but not in a you have to spend 10 min running back to your corpse only to get camped by a group of d-bags...
While not every PVP'er is bad (nor every PVE'er good), the more prevalent PVP is in a community, the more likely it is to be a bad community in my experience. Even something as small as joining a PVP battleground in WoW is enough for one to realize JUST how bad the pvp mentality makes people act...and these are people that are ostensibly on your 'team'!
Across all the games I've played, while I've met a couple of quality people who happened to pvp, I've seldom met pvp'ers who happened to be quality people. I wish it weren't so; there was a (short) time where pvp sounded somewhat interesting, but that day is looooong gone now. It's been ruined for me.
Any MMO with PVP or difficult raiding will end up with elites labeling others as scrubs.
uh, no it hasn't. Oh sure, it might not work for you but I say it works. Working as intended.
And perhaps, working as intended for people who like that type of thing.
And that's the problem, too many people who have no business playing ffa pvp games "playing ffa pvp games".
If I play tackle football and get tackled and hate getting tackled then who's fault is that?
I think players need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. For the record, my first mmo was lineage 2, I did my due dilligence, knew it was ffa pvp and a grind and wanted to try it anyway regardless of the issues. I had no intention of staying more than a week. Just wanted to see what an mmo was like. I stayed for 4.5 years.
I'm a bit tired of the victim card. People need to step up and know what they are getting into or pass and wait for something that will satisfy them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It don't think on its own it ruin communities, but the best ones from my experience have always been in PvE oriented games.
Just make the same gear you PVE with the same gear you PVP with. have a robust crafting systems to provide the armros/weapons/gear and make the only viable PVP world PVP.
It's really not that hard. PVPers will have to craft or dare i say run dungeons. the orginal problem was they allowed for seperate playstyles and that divides communitys.
Allow a guild vs guild system then let these guys go at it. it's like the old west were they meet at high noon, could be a big server event everyone could get in on if they choose.
To many resources wasted on making seperate gear and instances. plus the balance they claim has to be made, changes playstyles to much when a nerf lands. with only one way to balance PVE it makes life better for both.
It has always added to the community in every game I have played, from FFA full loot to bog standard zone/arena pvp games.
You get arsehats regardless of pvp or pve, in fact some of the most obnoxious players I have come across have been pvers in non open world mmos who get off on the ability that they can try annoy the hell out of someone without much reprisal.
People tend not to spam emotes at you when you can smash them into the ground.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
In my experience, games with no reprocussions for PVP or those that have it as a side attraction (WOW, Rift) the community and a-hole factor is astounding.
Surprisingly in games where the PVP is nearly unrestricted, but has consequences and is the main factor in the game (Like EVE) the community (while eager to blow you up or scam you) seems at a macro level, more mature and less ahole factor.
But thats just been my own personal experience and observation.
I hated PVP and was as big carebear in other games for years for that very reason. I decided to try EVE and was expecting the worst, but was really really surprised.
question is broad. depends on how the game is made.
played games that had nothing but pvp and lasted for months to years due to the game being durable enough to handle retention better than others.
then theres games with pvp that fall into the same soul sucking pitfalls as other games with pvp slapped on them.
they dont think over the long term implications, and simply let it take its course.
launch players reaching to highest gear/lvl possible.
launch players battling it out with their guilds, and eventually boil down to who's the best, and then the best players and secondary players form together to make one "super pvp guild"
a second war follows, the super pvp guild roffle stomps the rest - those that cannot compete retire to a pve server or unsub to another game.
new players looking to try their hand in pvp on a pvp server, either go through the multi month gauntlet of getting their face kicked in until they are "decent" enough , or dont both and move to a pve oriented server.
barring if the company litters their game with nerfs and band aid patches, or lack of expansions. pvp communities die out from repetition and move on to something else.
Again -- from the very beginning it depends on how the game is made, ive played pvp games that, once again avoids the pitfall above, and games they dont, the community, whether if full of ass to shit talkers, will establish themselves over time with respect if the game is good/solid enough to allow it.
IMO, I have yet to see a community with emphasis on PvP that didn't have an over-abundance of mean-spirited jerks trolling chat and forums.
Are there a couple of exceptions? Sure. But the OP is asking about communities, not 1-on-1 interactions. And the quietly capable PvPers tend to not post as much or as loudly as the others. The competitive aspect of PvP just seems to bring out the worst in some folks, and they end up having a huge influence on the folks around them. I've only studied bullying a little, but heavy PvP communities seem steeped in it.
The community in PvP focused games feels too much like Call of Duty to me.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Your mistake is in seeking some universal community where everyone gets along. No such universe exists. Communities exist on a far smaller and much broader level than the 2,000 people that happen to be online at the same time. The exception is when the server population is small enough to be its own community and, as a fan of Dunbar, I put that number around 150-200.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ha...
It's really something special when I can laugh and want to pull hairs out at the same time.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The concept of separate gear for separate tasks is lost on the post-WOW crowd.
JJ, it's separate gear because it's a completely different type of opponent. In most modern MMOs, attack type and tactics really don't mean anything - it's just a game of timer-watching whack-a-mole in a three tier hotbar. In older MMOs, you used faster weapons for faster enemies, cold weapons on fire enemies, holy weapons on undead enemies, etc.
A boss mob usually has high resistance, high HP and is pretty bad at combat. A PvPer has average resistance and HP, and is usually significantly smarter about combat than the boss mob. The player that uses the same equipment to fight PhYsCoKiLlEr [PK] as he does to fight Crogonor the Orc Brute Overlord [Boss] would be annihilated by one of the two, if not both in older MMOs.
Now, eh... damage type doesn't make a difference, tactics don't make a difference. You just manage timers. Even with the total sterility of today's combat, you still have higher stats on the boss and (often) smarter combat from PvPers. If the game's gear doesn't support that, then the game probably has a crappy experience in one of the two aspects.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am. I hate all PvP.