PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.
IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.
I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.
That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.
I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.
For me.. I hate the small canned PvP zones.. BORING.. I want open world (consensual) or large PvP battles like Ateratc Valley or WvWvW in GW2.. Everything else fails..
Personally I value PVP when it's purely a contest of skill. So that automatically removes MMORPGs from the equation due to gear advantages and population advantages (ie zerging.) These are non-skill (or at best really shallow) factors which exert significant influence over fights, when all I want in a good PVP game is to enter a match and win or lose based on my skill and teamwork
So in MMORPGs I stick with PVE (and love the RIFT option I found the other day where if it's checked there's absolutely no way to flag yourself for PVP, including how it prevents you from healing flagged players.)
Then I go and get my PVP from games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, and Smite. (Smite is awesome and since that's 3 games in a row I've loved from Hirez I guess now that makes me a raving Hirez fanboy, just as Trion is steadily turning me into a Trion fanboy.) Basically most PVP games where skill is the only thing causing you to win or lose (although I do tend to avoid things like multiplayer TBSes, because they don't flow very well, and FFA multiplayer because it usually eliminates aggressive play as a viable option.)
But yeah for MMORPG PVP I find the competition hinges on really dull questions like "Who brought more players to the fight?" or "Who's grinded gear/progression longer?" These questions tend to predetermine combat, which makes it predictable and dull, and not a contest of skill.
GW2's WvW is actually right on the verge of being awesome Planetside-like PVP (but with MMORPG combat; and actually about a year after I started playing Planetside I had mentioned that it'd be fantastic if a game did that style of massive PVP so it's cool to finally see it happen.) Basically if GW2 did a couple small changes it would make WvW amazing:
Ensure gear doesn't matter. Not one stat point.
Ensure progression doesn't matter, so that low-level players can join WvW and not only avoid being deadweight, but be on completely even footing.
Ensure population doesn't matter. Mostly by lowering the population cap to islands slightly and dynamically adding islands once each successive one is pop-capped. Pop-capped islands are even team fights, so the more of those which happen the more frequently things will boil down to how and where you use those players, not how many players you happen to have online right now.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
reason is simple - there is no reason to pvp but for gear or title. and this kind of pvp get boring very quickly.
there r no good pvp games on a market at all. they r either old or with pay to win cash-shop. Most mmo made r done for PvE crowd, 90%pve 10%pvp.
Other reason is ***** community. Minute they can pvp, they go and look for someone weaker or under lvled and undergeared. But to scared to attack higher lvl players, many times witnessed it myself.
PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.
IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.
I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.
That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.
I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.
PVP and PVE can never coexist within one realm, its very simple, Certain Class will be better than others in doing the same thing. That is to create variety, but it only works for PVE, therefore there is no balance between classes.
So unless everyone is okay with being classless and everyone can choose to become whatever they want, then no PVP will ever work with PVE.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes
Effective Time Invested == Skill
However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
I prefer PvP, where fighters win just battles, but crafters win wars and traders and politicians beat them all. So the points of the OP are irrelevant in my game. In such a game you can of course have a very worthful and even peaceful coexistance of PvE and PvP.
to bad shadowbane was a buggy pos and never really took off because of the hacks and duping going on . I wish more companies would go with the shadowbane pvp system for large scale siege. But then again the community nowadays and guilds in no way could take it , once a guild city was destroyed in shadowbane so many people guild hoped and quit that guild destroying it completely .
My issues with the current pvp systems in games is pvp gear with added stats for pvp only with large amounts of grinding , crap games like Rift and WOW.
Second issue is way to much c/c in games with way to long timers. That is the lazy developer way of making pvp last longer. Games should not allow every single class to have stupid amounts of c/c with long durations. Then pvp goes from tactical to who can c/c the other team first wins. At least in old games like DAOC classes were given c/c breakers and they didnt use that crappy deminishing return formula that all these jokes of games use today. Back then if you were c/c you got a 1 min immunity to it vs each type of c/c snare root stun and mes all on seperate timers for immunity.
Lack of real pvp objectives that matter is another joke in games now. If you want more people to pvp and have fun doing it make it worthwhile to do so , increase money and exp for doing it add in buffs to the entire realm for a very large battleground. People have no reason to fight nowadays or they just sit in a warzone and /afk the entire time because you get faster experience that way .
reason is simple - there is no reason to pvp but for gear or title. and this kind of pvp get boring very quickly.
there r no good pvp games on a market at all. they r either old or with pay to win cash-shop. Most mmo made r done for PvE crowd, 90%pve 10%pvp.
Other reason is ***** community. Minute they can pvp, they go and look for someone weaker or under lvled and undergeared. But to scared to attack higher lvl players, many times witnessed it myself.
If you need an external reason to PvP other than your love for PvP then you are not really a PvPer but a guy that wants rewards to PvP, and yes there is a difference.
The green part has more to do with the human nature per say. In the real world it takes a significant amount of effort to show sportsmanship even with the face to face interaction usually involved. Now take out the face to face involvement and replace it with anonymity and BAM, you got an MMO player. Also a lot of people like to win at all cost, it doesn't matter to them how they do it because it's fun for them. Honestly, you are expecting too much from strangers. Which is why developers HAVE to be the ones that prevent bad things such as higher levels and better gear attacking undergeared players. Unfortunately, most developers either don't have the guts or are too lazy to implement features to prevent such a thing.
1.) PvP gear, it makes people who have played/grinded longer better than those who haven't played/grinded as long, which then brings us to the next point...
2.) Bad PvP grouping machanics, in most instanced PvP you are put in random groups, you might have only just hit the cap level and you are suddenly playing with people who have been the cap level for a while (which goes back to point 1.)
In order to have fun PvP it should be completely balanced, not class balance, but stat/gear balanced. I do think that those who play longer should have an advantage, but I believe it should only be a small advantage.
When you're losing PvP because you're undergeared, or because your group is not as well geared as the other group, it's not fun.
When you're winning hands down because you are much better geared, or your group is, than the other group it is also not fun.
No one wants to be two shotted, no one wants to two shot, it's not fun. People like a challenge.
Stat/gear balance is key to PvP, but no MMO's seem to believe this. GW2 might change this though.
Originally posted by Lienhart Actually, you're all wrong.Most MMO PvP are usuallyTime invested == SkillThat is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomesEffective Time Invested == SkillHowever, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.
Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO
Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.
Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.
After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]
Originally posted by Palladin PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.
PvP is never forced on players, they can always chose to play other games where the PvP ruleset is more to their liking.
When you enter a Japanese restaurant, do you complain about the food only being Japanese? Most probably not.
It's the same with PvP, you don't start playing a FFA PvP game only to complain that you get ganked all the time while questing.
Non-consensual PvP creates it's own 'black hole' that sucks in all other features of the game. No matter how nice the other features of the game are, the game will always be about the PvP. Too many times developers try to sell potential players on the idea that the non-consensual PvP is just one of the many features. However, this is wrong. If you have non-consensual it will affect everything in the game and if you are unwilling to deal with that, you should not play that game.
The open world pvp sucks because they try to make the talent trees both pve and pvp.
If they seperated them, made them completely different. I.E 3 pve trees, 3 PVP trees. You could make the talents spacific. When they are mixed togather they need to balance them for both which puts one side bitching about they other so the end up ruining both.
They need 6 trees in total 3/3, and a way to switch them on the fly (with no Skill cooldowns once switched.) And add small amounts of PVP stats to all PVE gear so you are not sitting with 0% resiliance while questing.
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
Right.
The difference in whether PVP mechanics are acceptable largely revolves around whether time investment is formalized in a game rule (spend time playing to level up and gain a quantifiable advantage before the battle begins) or not.
Almost nobody objects to PVP which is really about player skill, but most people -- at least subconsciously -- see through the casual shallowness of PVP which revolves around things like playing longer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes
Effective Time Invested == Skill
However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.
Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO
Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.
Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.
After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]
Ah, yes, now I see, the classic "more time spent = better gear and stats = lower level characters can't hit them worth crap even if they sit still" argument. Very true, and far too many MMOs have that. That's another reason why I like Eve so much; even the dinky little tech 1 frigates can be very deadly to larger ships if used properly. Hell, I've seen groups of players fleet up in nothing but the free rookie frigates (the weakest damn ships you can find in Eve) and successfully kill veterans in battleships in them (if you're interested in seeing this, look up Eve Noobswarm in Youtube).
Originally posted by Palladin 1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane2. PvP specific gear3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%IT'S MY OPINION:BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.I see no reason for pvp specific gear
Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.
I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.
Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!
Ganking and being Ganked is a bad word around these parts and often associated with "high levels" focus firing "low levels" in the starter area.... taking all thier stuff.. tea bagging and whatever else you can fit into the open world PvP stereotypes
PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.
IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.
I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.
That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.
I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.
PVP and PVE can never coexist within one realm, its very simple, Certain Class will be better than others in doing the same thing. That is to create variety, but it only works for PVE, therefore there is no balance between classes.
So unless everyone is okay with being classless and everyone can choose to become whatever they want, then no PVP will ever work with PVE.
Oh yes they can co-exist in a single realm, so long as you make it that each ability of each class has a pvp-combat value, and a pve-combat value that can be adjusted without worrying about it affecting their proformance n the other aspect of the game. Balance does not mean that every class proforms the exact same, but that all clases have a chance of winning that is not drastically higher or lower then the other. You have have classes that will have slightly higher then normal chances of beating other classes, as then they will normally have a slightly lower chance of beating other classes as well, and that is well balance by the very fact of no one is going to be completely better across the board. Yet the issue is that most games use one set of values for abilies, which is based on pve making it that if you change that value to accomadate pvp or pve it will unbalance the other. Yet if you used a dual value system that would change the facts of balancing the game as you now have two sets of values that do not actually effect the other if you change one.
What i mean is that each ability has values set for both pve target (ie mobs/npcs.), and values for pvp targets (players.) which are independent of each other when making changes to one of the value sets. Like making a fireball deal 300-600 damage to a mob yet 150-300 damage to players, or having a stun that incapasates a mob for 15 second yet for players that would only be 5 or 6 seconds. The issue most games have is that one set of values are affecting two playstyles, where it should be one set of values for each, that way the two sets of values exist in the same realm yet influence difference aspects fo the realm without interfering with each other.
PvP sucks in most MMOs because its a tacked on gear and rep grind as opposed to a true feature of the MMO itself.
For an example you can refer to: every MMO made since DAOC*
*with a few notable exceptions ofc
This is the bigest issue is that the game is built as only either a pve, or a pvp based game, and then adjusted via one set of values in an attept to balance aspects of the game where clases/abilities are under/over-performing in the game (ala tacked on content that the game was not actually built to excell in.). They use thigns like pvp-exclusive stats, or pvp-only gear to combat it yet when things in one or the other aspect get unbalanced they have to fiddle with the values, and so they very likely will unbalance the other aspect of the game by doing so.
PvP sucks in MMO's because it can't really be balanced unless they take the route of GW (areana setting, limited skills/stats, same gear, same level, etc).
Otherwise there will be too many different builds and items and no control over the amount of enemies your facing. Basically to have fun in MMO PvP you have to accept it will never be 100% balanced and in some situations you will just die due to things other than lack of skill.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
Comments
I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.
Personally I value PVP when it's purely a contest of skill. So that automatically removes MMORPGs from the equation due to gear advantages and population advantages (ie zerging.) These are non-skill (or at best really shallow) factors which exert significant influence over fights, when all I want in a good PVP game is to enter a match and win or lose based on my skill and teamwork
So in MMORPGs I stick with PVE (and love the RIFT option I found the other day where if it's checked there's absolutely no way to flag yourself for PVP, including how it prevents you from healing flagged players.)
Then I go and get my PVP from games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, and Smite. (Smite is awesome and since that's 3 games in a row I've loved from Hirez I guess now that makes me a raving Hirez fanboy, just as Trion is steadily turning me into a Trion fanboy.) Basically most PVP games where skill is the only thing causing you to win or lose (although I do tend to avoid things like multiplayer TBSes, because they don't flow very well, and FFA multiplayer because it usually eliminates aggressive play as a viable option.)
But yeah for MMORPG PVP I find the competition hinges on really dull questions like "Who brought more players to the fight?" or "Who's grinded gear/progression longer?" These questions tend to predetermine combat, which makes it predictable and dull, and not a contest of skill.
GW2's WvW is actually right on the verge of being awesome Planetside-like PVP (but with MMORPG combat; and actually about a year after I started playing Planetside I had mentioned that it'd be fantastic if a game did that style of massive PVP so it's cool to finally see it happen.) Basically if GW2 did a couple small changes it would make WvW amazing:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
reason is simple - there is no reason to pvp but for gear or title. and this kind of pvp get boring very quickly.
there r no good pvp games on a market at all. they r either old or with pay to win cash-shop. Most mmo made r done for PvE crowd, 90%pve 10%pvp.
Other reason is ***** community. Minute they can pvp, they go and look for someone weaker or under lvled and undergeared. But to scared to attack higher lvl players, many times witnessed it myself.
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PVP and PVE can never coexist within one realm, its very simple, Certain Class will be better than others in doing the same thing. That is to create variety, but it only works for PVE, therefore there is no balance between classes.
So unless everyone is okay with being classless and everyone can choose to become whatever they want, then no PVP will ever work with PVE.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
You forgot Eve Online, open world PvP is in that too.
Where's the any key?
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
Where's the any key?
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
to bad shadowbane was a buggy pos and never really took off because of the hacks and duping going on . I wish more companies would go with the shadowbane pvp system for large scale siege. But then again the community nowadays and guilds in no way could take it , once a guild city was destroyed in shadowbane so many people guild hoped and quit that guild destroying it completely .
My issues with the current pvp systems in games is pvp gear with added stats for pvp only with large amounts of grinding , crap games like Rift and WOW.
Second issue is way to much c/c in games with way to long timers. That is the lazy developer way of making pvp last longer. Games should not allow every single class to have stupid amounts of c/c with long durations. Then pvp goes from tactical to who can c/c the other team first wins. At least in old games like DAOC classes were given c/c breakers and they didnt use that crappy deminishing return formula that all these jokes of games use today. Back then if you were c/c you got a 1 min immunity to it vs each type of c/c snare root stun and mes all on seperate timers for immunity.
Lack of real pvp objectives that matter is another joke in games now. If you want more people to pvp and have fun doing it make it worthwhile to do so , increase money and exp for doing it add in buffs to the entire realm for a very large battleground. People have no reason to fight nowadays or they just sit in a warzone and /afk the entire time because you get faster experience that way .
If you need an external reason to PvP other than your love for PvP then you are not really a PvPer but a guy that wants rewards to PvP, and yes there is a difference.
The green part has more to do with the human nature per say. In the real world it takes a significant amount of effort to show sportsmanship even with the face to face interaction usually involved. Now take out the face to face involvement and replace it with anonymity and BAM, you got an MMO player. Also a lot of people like to win at all cost, it doesn't matter to them how they do it because it's fun for them. Honestly, you are expecting too much from strangers. Which is why developers HAVE to be the ones that prevent bad things such as higher levels and better gear attacking undergeared players. Unfortunately, most developers either don't have the guts or are too lazy to implement features to prevent such a thing.
PvP is never forced on players, they can always chose to play other games where the PvP ruleset is more to their liking.
When you enter a Japanese restaurant, do you complain about the food only being Japanese? Most probably not.
It's the same with PvP, you don't start playing a FFA PvP game only to complain that you get ganked all the time while questing.
PvP sucks in most games because of two reasons...
1.) PvP gear, it makes people who have played/grinded longer better than those who haven't played/grinded as long, which then brings us to the next point...
2.) Bad PvP grouping machanics, in most instanced PvP you are put in random groups, you might have only just hit the cap level and you are suddenly playing with people who have been the cap level for a while (which goes back to point 1.)
In order to have fun PvP it should be completely balanced, not class balance, but stat/gear balanced. I do think that those who play longer should have an advantage, but I believe it should only be a small advantage.
When you're losing PvP because you're undergeared, or because your group is not as well geared as the other group, it's not fun.
When you're winning hands down because you are much better geared, or your group is, than the other group it is also not fun.
No one wants to be two shotted, no one wants to two shot, it's not fun. People like a challenge.
Stat/gear balance is key to PvP, but no MMO's seem to believe this. GW2 might change this though.
What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.
I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.
Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO
Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.
Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.
After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]
Non-consensual PvP creates it's own 'black hole' that sucks in all other features of the game. No matter how nice the other features of the game are, the game will always be about the PvP. Too many times developers try to sell potential players on the idea that the non-consensual PvP is just one of the many features. However, this is wrong. If you have non-consensual it will affect everything in the game and if you are unwilling to deal with that, you should not play that game.
Now I am going to use wow as an example.
The open world pvp sucks because they try to make the talent trees both pve and pvp.
If they seperated them, made them completely different. I.E 3 pve trees, 3 PVP trees. You could make the talents spacific. When they are mixed togather they need to balance them for both which puts one side bitching about they other so the end up ruining both.
They need 6 trees in total 3/3, and a way to switch them on the fly (with no Skill cooldowns once switched.) And add small amounts of PVP stats to all PVE gear so you are not sitting with 0% resiliance while questing.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
Right.
The difference in whether PVP mechanics are acceptable largely revolves around whether time investment is formalized in a game rule (spend time playing to level up and gain a quantifiable advantage before the battle begins) or not.
Almost nobody objects to PVP which is really about player skill, but most people -- at least subconsciously -- see through the casual shallowness of PVP which revolves around things like playing longer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So your ideal PvP scenario is a blob of people bunny hopping and zig zagging as they spam their own attacks as much as possible so they hit something.
Ah, yes, now I see, the classic "more time spent = better gear and stats = lower level characters can't hit them worth crap even if they sit still" argument. Very true, and far too many MMOs have that. That's another reason why I like Eve so much; even the dinky little tech 1 frigates can be very deadly to larger ships if used properly. Hell, I've seen groups of players fleet up in nothing but the free rookie frigates (the weakest damn ships you can find in Eve) and successfully kill veterans in battleships in them (if you're interested in seeing this, look up Eve Noobswarm in Youtube).
Where's the any key?
PvP sucks in most MMOs because its a tacked on gear and rep grind as opposed to a true feature of the MMO itself.
For an example you can refer to: every MMO made since DAOC*
*with a few notable exceptions ofc
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.
I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.
Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!
Games previously played: AO, AoC, Aion, AoW, Eve, SWTor, WaR, STO, TSW, DCUO, FE, BP, ProjectEntropia, FootballSuperstars!
Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.
I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.
Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!
Ganking and being Ganked is a bad word around these parts and often associated with "high levels" focus firing "low levels" in the starter area.... taking all thier stuff.. tea bagging and whatever else you can fit into the open world PvP stereotypes
Oh yes they can co-exist in a single realm, so long as you make it that each ability of each class has a pvp-combat value, and a pve-combat value that can be adjusted without worrying about it affecting their proformance n the other aspect of the game. Balance does not mean that every class proforms the exact same, but that all clases have a chance of winning that is not drastically higher or lower then the other. You have have classes that will have slightly higher then normal chances of beating other classes, as then they will normally have a slightly lower chance of beating other classes as well, and that is well balance by the very fact of no one is going to be completely better across the board. Yet the issue is that most games use one set of values for abilies, which is based on pve making it that if you change that value to accomadate pvp or pve it will unbalance the other. Yet if you used a dual value system that would change the facts of balancing the game as you now have two sets of values that do not actually effect the other if you change one.
What i mean is that each ability has values set for both pve target (ie mobs/npcs.), and values for pvp targets (players.) which are independent of each other when making changes to one of the value sets. Like making a fireball deal 300-600 damage to a mob yet 150-300 damage to players, or having a stun that incapasates a mob for 15 second yet for players that would only be 5 or 6 seconds. The issue most games have is that one set of values are affecting two playstyles, where it should be one set of values for each, that way the two sets of values exist in the same realm yet influence difference aspects fo the realm without interfering with each other.
This is the bigest issue is that the game is built as only either a pve, or a pvp based game, and then adjusted via one set of values in an attept to balance aspects of the game where clases/abilities are under/over-performing in the game (ala tacked on content that the game was not actually built to excell in.). They use thigns like pvp-exclusive stats, or pvp-only gear to combat it yet when things in one or the other aspect get unbalanced they have to fiddle with the values, and so they very likely will unbalance the other aspect of the game by doing so.
PvP sucks in MMO's because it can't really be balanced unless they take the route of GW (areana setting, limited skills/stats, same gear, same level, etc).
Otherwise there will be too many different builds and items and no control over the amount of enemies your facing. Basically to have fun in MMO PvP you have to accept it will never be 100% balanced and in some situations you will just die due to things other than lack of skill.
What the hell are u talking about ??
Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????
Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.