Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by VengeSunsoarNope they were just as I stated. They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner. Thats it. If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was. To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller. Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots. CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it.
Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require money if you're not Gold, unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.
No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.
Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.
That never happened when games were simply P2P.
I love how everyone has ignored this post. Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it
I used to be a crazy ass hardcore gamer. I would put 8-10+ hours into a mmo a day.
For a person like that F2p is miserable. To be that dedicated to one game you would need to spend way more money in a shop than you would by subscribing.
As i've gotten older i'm more of a casual guy now. I dont invest too much into one game. I hop around put 10-20 hours in a game move on. For me F2p is amazing.
+1. Only difference that I started mmo-hopping way before the f2p tidal wave to avoid the burning-out effect, so f2p only brought me the convenience that I don't have to cancel / resub / watching the dates, etc. And that I still investing time and money into my main mmo's. But I constantly trying out new ones on the side as they emerges
Are we really so damn cheap that we have to have the subs argument every week?
Buy one less can of Mt. Dew a day--your gaming bill is paid! Huzzah.
I think more of the argument is that people have been (on recent pages of this thread) talking about subbing to MULTIPLE games and how pricey that can get. I personally can relate to this, but also would add that every sub in my house requires at least 2 subs or 3 if my son wants to play as well. My partner and I play together regardless of what game we're playing, so we're talking a potential 45 dollars a month PER GAME in my house. I'm telling you that gets a bit painful unless we limit ourselves to one game really. This is hard to do when we LIKE several different games. For instance, EQ2, WoW, and GW2. There's no way, even with GW2 that that is a cheap hobby. (We pay for EQ2 because the f2p is ridiculous, and in GW2 we have purchased a few things in the cash shop, so yes, it's our fault, but nonetheless.....not cheap.)
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarNope they were just as I stated. They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner. Thats it. If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was. To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller. Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots. CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it.
Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require money if you're not Gold, unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.
No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.
Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.
That never happened when games were simply P2P.
I love how everyone has ignored this post. Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it
Everyone has "ignored" it because it's only about ONE game. EQ doesn't apply to every other game. Some of the problems persist throughout the f2p, sub and freemium models and others are specific to just one payment model. I think most of the posts have been speaking more broadly than the post you quoted. People probably read it and posted their OWN thoughts on the topic. No reason for this post to /thread......seriously.
F2P, B2P or freemium isn't cheaper. They're making more money that's why so many are converting.
Simple and spot on example:
--> When I started playing LotRO in 2007 it was hard as nails P2P. No cash shop, no freemium ,nothing. Back then, I farmed rep for cloaks I liked. Farmed deeds for titles I liked. Cost me 8,99/month with a 6-month plan. I paid exactly 107,88€ per year.
--> Now, I'm on VIP because buying all the questhubs up until Moria would cost me around 5000 cash shop points, I need GM support now and then, I wanna start auctions now and then. You know, to keep the stuff running I took for granted when everything was P2P. BUT: Now they give me 500 cash shop points every month for my still 8,99/month subscription and put every vanity item, from mount to cloak to cosmetic armor, in the cash shop. They put the sixth bag in the cash shop, deeds in the cash shop, quick travel in the cash shop.
And charge a lot more than 500 points for it...
Now you could argue, and commonly people DO argue that "well if you need cosmetic crap it's your own fault, just don't buy it", but frankly, part of my motivation back in 2008/09 was grinding rep for rep-based vanity items, mounts, cloaks, housing stuff...
So after soing the math (basic game experience from P2P + vanity items I used to get with P2P) I usually pay around 20 bucks a month for the game for the exact same game experience I had for 8,99/month three years ago.
So my imo valid argument is that, while freemium and F2P aren't inherently evil, they're just making games more expensive. You're getting nickle and dimed, no matter what they try to tell you.
Sorry, but the price of a movie and some popcorn is hardly too much for a months worth of playtime
Dude i live in NYC a movie and popcorn/soda is like 35 bucks...
I'm here wondering if subscriptions raised in price lol!
That is an outright lie. A ticket costs $13.00 for an adult at a typical theatre in NYC. So unless you found a place that serves gourmet pop and popcorn that costs $22.00 on top of that, you are lieing.
well tbh with you its been over 20 years since ive gone to the movies alone...
I know with me ,the wife and 4 kids seeing a 3D flick and buying everyone popcorn, candy and soda ive spend well into 150 bucks lol.
for one person 13 bucks is kind of low. Where are you going to the movies? near the brooklyn projects?
Nope, just this summer I went to two movies with friends in the heart of NYC. For a 3D movie we spent $15.75, for a regular 2D movie we spent $13.00. My pop was over priced but refillable at $5.00, and popcorn actually wasn't too bad. All in all, for the 2D movie I spent around $20.00 and for the 3D around $24.00. I didn't get popcorn, I opted for the more expensive candy
Also, I did a quick google and found links to current prices of theatres in the centre and surrounding areas of new york. The average price is indeed $13.00 for a ticket, and with many combo prices below $20.00.
So where are you going to see the movies? Near the brooklyn projects in some guys basement who threatens to break your legs if you don't pay $35.00?
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarNope they were just as I stated. They were at the log in screen but in game it was a tiny little button in the corner. Thats it. If you consider something off in the corner to be intrusive I guess it was. To me it was a non-issue, no more intrusive than the date/time on my desktop.edit screenshots on new bard alt: log in screen in game screen EQ and EQ2 they are a button in the bottom left and even smaller. Haven't played those in a few months so not going to redownload the game just to grab some screenshots. CoH, Aion and CO I dont' even recall seeing a button, I"m sure they were there but dont' recall what it looked like or where it was only that I wasn't bothered by it.
Half of Everquest's loot is prestige, every prestige item requires you to upgrade to a gold membership or you can't equip it. Every augment that is prestige reminds you to buy a gold membership. Your missing bag slots remind you to either go Gold or buy storage space from the cash shop. Mercenaries over J1 require you to buy them from the cash shop or buy Gold membership. Mercenary slots require you to buy them from the cash shop. AA abilities require money if you're not Gold, unlocking classes requires you to buy them from the cash shop or go Gold. Owning over a certain amount of platinum, costs real life money or you need to buy a Gold membership.
No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.
Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.
That never happened when games were simply P2P.
I love how everyone has ignored this post. Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it
Everyone has "ignored" it because it's only about ONE game. EQ doesn't apply to every other game. Some of the problems persist throughout the f2p, sub and freemium models and others are specific to just one payment model. I think most of the posts have been speaking more broadly than the post you quoted. People probably read it and posted their OWN thoughts on the topic. No reason for this post to /thread......seriously.
Agreed, EQ2 is a shining example of how NOT to do F2P IMO. Not all of them are THAT bad.
I truly hope that the F2P / B2P model is short lived for the MMO genre. I understand all of the talking points from F2P / B2P advocates but the reality is that these types of games are in many cases ruining the genre by lowering the standards of quality, content, and support.
Out of all the F2P / B2P games that have been released or converted over the past few years, only LOTRO has proven to be somewhat successful. Many would argue that GW2 is successful but it really hasn't been out long enough to determine what kind of longevity it will have or how the CS will evolve.
Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford. By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities.
Sorry, but the price of a movie and some popcorn is hardly too much for a months worth of playtime
Dude i live in NYC a movie and popcorn/soda is like 35 bucks...
I'm here wondering if subscriptions raised in price lol!
That is an outright lie. A ticket costs $13.00 for an adult at a typical theatre in NYC. So unless you found a place that serves gourmet pop and popcorn that costs $22.00 on top of that, you are lieing.
well tbh with you its been over 20 years since ive gone to the movies alone...
I know with me ,the wife and 4 kids seeing a 3D flick and buying everyone popcorn, candy and soda ive spend well into 150 bucks lol.
for one person 13 bucks is kind of low. Where are you going to the movies? near the brooklyn projects?
Nope, just this summer I went to two movies with friends in the heart of NYC. For a 3D movie we spent $15.75, for a regular 2D movie we spent $13.00. My pop was over priced but refillable at $5.00, and popcorn actually wasn't too bad. All in all, for the 2D movie I spent around $20.00 and for the 3D around $24.00. I didn't get popcorn, I opted for the more expensive candy
Also, I did a quick google and found links to current prices of theatres in the centre and surrounding areas of new york. The average price is indeed $13.00 for a ticket, and with many combo prices below $20.00.
So where are you going to see the movies? Near the brooklyn projects in some guys basement who threatens to break your legs if you don't pay $35.00?
Are you seriously forum warrioring movie prices? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe you wasted your time googling ticket prices!!!!!
Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford. By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities.
Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.
Originally posted by aladinversuk i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.
'wasted'?
How little would you actually have to play in a week to feel like £2.50 (or thereabouts) was 'wasted'? An hour? Two?
My thought is that if you are playing less than an hour a week in a MMORPG often enough to feel the burn of the 'waste' then maybe this genre isn't for you.
My opinion is that the sub offers amazing value on an ongoing basis and promotes better core game design and a more stable community, with less focus on manipulating you into spending, and a more even play field for play to achieve gamers.
I actually think that the F2P model is pretty destructive to these games on a number of levels and, overall, represent worse value (under the often illusion of 'choice').
Exactly. Thank you.
I am so tired of this new argument against P2P. I never feel I have "wasted" $15, even if I only login 1 or 2 days in a month. It's a ridiculous argument that needs to go away sooner rather than later.
If $15 seems like a lot of money for a month of entertainment to you, you really have no business having an interest in MMOs. That's my opinion.
Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford. By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities.
Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.
The problem with large player bases is that in most cases, they only last a month or two. I'm pretty sure that most devs and publishers would prefer a smaller yet extremely loyal player base that provides consistent, predictable revenue over several years.
Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford. By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities.
Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.
The problem with large player bases is that in most cases, they only last a month or two. I'm pretty sure that most devs and publishers would prefer a smaller yet extremely loyal player base that provides consistent, predictable revenue over several years.
LOL has a growing playerbase for more than a month or two. DDO, LOTOR all have much bigger ongoing player base after going F2P.
I am sure the reveneue math must have worked out for some many games going F2P. And P2P does not ensure loyalty. Where do you get that idea?
There is simply little loyalty and devs should plan as such.
Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.
I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;
When I pay my $15 a month I:
- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).
- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.
- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".
- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!
- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.
That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:
We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.
Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!
I started playing the MMO world at the age of 11 , and I had to pay a sub fee of 10$ for Nexus the kingdom of the winds , so what did I do? I started working as a paperboy , delivered around 20 newspaper , which took 15-20 minutes , and voila my sub fee was paid with some extra left over!! Yes people complain about P2P because their lazy bastards who just cry all day instead of doing something out of their lives. Anyways I enjoy my EVE-Online for almost 7 years now and will keep on going at it until I pass away! F2P is garbage , and will continue on bashing F2P until I pass away! Ya'll have a good day now!
Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.
Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.
Whether you like it or not, its how it is .
No your not right. There have been many f2p mmo's going on for years, just like P2P. There have been several that have closed down. Just like P2P.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.
Whether you like it or not, its how it is .
Not a popular one like LOTRO, STO, DDO or DCUO.
And what if it is shut down 3 month from now. I have fun now. I thought it is about the journey, not the destination. If a game i play shuts down, i move on to the next one. In fact, it is more than likely that i will move on WAY BEFORE it shuts down.
nt invest too much into one game. I hop around put 10-20 hours in a game move on. For me F2p is amazing.
.....
No more paying up front to get a good grasp of a game (no demos/trials dont give you that), no more needing to keep a subscription going even though im only playing 5 hours a month.
Even you F2p haters have to agree, for a casual player. One that hardly invests an hour a session playing and probably will never touch max level F2p is the way to go. Games like GW2, Lotro, PS2, Firefall, RaiderZ and even SWTOR offer me variety in my gaming for free.
It's a good thing.
Not at all. Hardly can immagine how fun can be game I play barely 5 hours per month. Ok, I can understand 5 hours per WEEK. Barely of course. I'm sure if you like some game you will find more then 5 hours time per month. Btw, I do not have swimming pool even less filled with money, but I'm still paying for swtor sub even if not actively playing for last months. Because is great game I will return soon. Any game that have implemented mixed system, I always sub. Or I do not play.
Bad is, f2p is killing quality gamming. Or they implement such "free" that at the end of the month you find you have spent more money then for regular sub all inclusive.
Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.
Whether you like it or not, its how it is .
Not a popular one like LOTRO, STO, DDO or DCUO.
And what if it is shut down 3 month from now. I have fun now. I thought it is about the journey, not the destination. If a game i play shuts down, i move on to the next one. In fact, it is more than likely that i will move on WAY BEFORE it shuts down.
I have always fun NOW, I'm also altholic and enjoy developing all possible combinations, ..... but would not play game that I know will shut down in month or so. Because MMO's are big investment in future play, you develop something. Pacman style game is instant pleasure, games for i.e. bowling, golf, ... but they have nothing that make up MMO.
Otherwise it feels like somebody enjoying to paint some great landscape ... knowing somebody will trash his/her work into trash in month or so. Really wondering how much joy you would find in this.
Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.
I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;
When I pay my $15 a month I:
- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).
- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.
- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".
- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!
- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.
That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:
We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.
Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!
not everyone earns money like you .neither everyone is cash making machines . most people have got life unlike you .sorry if it sounds harsh but if you want to live in this world than learn to accept different views .
nt invest too much into one game. I hop around put 10-20 hours in a game move on. For me F2p is amazing.
.....
No more paying up front to get a good grasp of a game (no demos/trials dont give you that), no more needing to keep a subscription going even though im only playing 5 hours a month.
Even you F2p haters have to agree, for a casual player. One that hardly invests an hour a session playing and probably will never touch max level F2p is the way to go. Games like GW2, Lotro, PS2, Firefall, RaiderZ and even SWTOR offer me variety in my gaming for free.
It's a good thing.
Not at all. Hardly can immagine how fun can be game I play barely 5 hours per month.
The same fun as in any other game (ok, I'm not Z3R01, but my case is somewhat similar)
When I started hopping 4-5 years ago I got the same thing thrown at my head (you're not even a player, you don't know how to play an mmo, you will be a n00b casual, etc). I just got fed up the so-called 'endgame' which is only gear grinding for months, to get what? a ~2% better gear, so you could go grind a few more month the same stuff just now in T2/hard mode/elite (pick your game ) for a slight better gear. Oh, and for this boring chore of course you keep paying the monthly fee. I just started to play other games, and since then I never wasted 1 minute more on 'endgame' (except the ones without a grind, STO's DOff system is great fun for example)
So, I have now 5-6 games installed (and a few more on try-out phase), in which I have levelcapped alts, and I log in for talking, crafting, helping buddies, sometimes I level up a new alt, I love to participate in seasonal events (during that of course the 5hrs/month is not valid, I wouldn't miss any second from a festival in LotRO for example ), etc.
I'm the uber-hardcore-elite raiding dude? Not at all, not anymore. Am I having fun play barely 5 hours per month in a game (sometimes more of course)? Absolutely.
But it's off-topic I guess, since it's nothing to do with f2p, I did the same before the f2p-era as well.
Originally posted by aladinversuk i'd rather play in a F2P server rather than a subscribtion based one. having monthly sub fee could make you feel obligated to play the game else your money will just be wasted. in a f2p server, vip or premium services are optional and you can pick it up whenever you feel like it.
Such a poor argument,if you don't like the game or want to play it,then why would you worry about a subscription?There is NEVER any obligation to play,you simply don't pay the subscription.
That would be the exact same analogy as saying,i don't want to pay house taxes because it is an obligation to live in my house.I don't want to pay for a gas furnace because it is an obligation to use it,i don't want to buy a car because it is an obligation top use it.I don't want a license because it is an obligation to buy a car and to use it.
The list goes on and on.
The ONLY argument would be if you feel you are getting your money worth in the game.There are several checklists,like does the game really offer a MMO atmosphere of ongoing gaming,or is it simply a single player game that has me waiting for the next xpac to get anymore fun?Is the developer taking that money and using it to better the game,use it for support,good servers ect ect.
Bottom line is simple,NONE of these developers are stupid,they all have their marketing gimmicks to try and make a profit.If they have the plan from day 1 to go f2p,then you can bet your bottom dollar the content will be slim and the overall game depth will be slim.This is not a guarantee as really most developers jumped on the bandwagon and just automatic charge a sub fee as an extra free income.There is always an ongoing cost,but in reality,if you are going to sell a MMO,you are expected to have GM support and expected to have servers.Developers have seen an easy window of opportunity to fund their ongoing projects with current subs,instead of investing that money back into the game ,to KEEP players happy and coming back.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
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No kidding you're not reminded, you are continiously reminded in the game itself on every other turn that you have to pay for everything under the sun. The gameplay itself is locked behind paywalls, the more you progress, the more paywalls you run into, and then you have 2 options, either pay a lot of money in the cash shop or go P2P. EQ is not a F2P game, it's a F2P trial and if you want to get anywhere in the game you have to pay. Raid items are prestige, you either pay or you're never wearing a raid item. You would be useless as a character if you didn't eventually get good augments and unlocked more AA. You can't even progress beyond a certain point if you don't spend money to ulock enough AA.
Claiming it's just a simple button on the side is misinterpretation to the extreme, if you play EQ as a F2P game, you either buy unlocks for gear and AA, or you stop playing the game when you run into the paywalls, and you will run into them after you need more than a few hundred AA and actually want your character to progress instead of dying on every mob.
That never happened when games were simply P2P.
I love how everyone has ignored this post.
Guess it would be "/thread over" if people acknowledged it
+1. Only difference that I started mmo-hopping way before the f2p tidal wave to avoid the burning-out effect, so f2p only brought me the convenience that I don't have to cancel / resub / watching the dates, etc. And that I still investing time and money into my main mmo's. But I constantly trying out new ones on the side as they emerges
I think more of the argument is that people have been (on recent pages of this thread) talking about subbing to MULTIPLE games and how pricey that can get. I personally can relate to this, but also would add that every sub in my house requires at least 2 subs or 3 if my son wants to play as well. My partner and I play together regardless of what game we're playing, so we're talking a potential 45 dollars a month PER GAME in my house. I'm telling you that gets a bit painful unless we limit ourselves to one game really. This is hard to do when we LIKE several different games. For instance, EQ2, WoW, and GW2. There's no way, even with GW2 that that is a cheap hobby. (We pay for EQ2 because the f2p is ridiculous, and in GW2 we have purchased a few things in the cash shop, so yes, it's our fault, but nonetheless.....not cheap.)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Everyone has "ignored" it because it's only about ONE game. EQ doesn't apply to every other game. Some of the problems persist throughout the f2p, sub and freemium models and others are specific to just one payment model. I think most of the posts have been speaking more broadly than the post you quoted. People probably read it and posted their OWN thoughts on the topic. No reason for this post to /thread......seriously.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The problem is:
F2P, B2P or freemium isn't cheaper. They're making more money that's why so many are converting.
Simple and spot on example:
--> When I started playing LotRO in 2007 it was hard as nails P2P. No cash shop, no freemium ,nothing. Back then, I farmed rep for cloaks I liked. Farmed deeds for titles I liked. Cost me 8,99/month with a 6-month plan. I paid exactly 107,88€ per year.
--> Now, I'm on VIP because buying all the questhubs up until Moria would cost me around 5000 cash shop points, I need GM support now and then, I wanna start auctions now and then. You know, to keep the stuff running I took for granted when everything was P2P. BUT: Now they give me 500 cash shop points every month for my still 8,99/month subscription and put every vanity item, from mount to cloak to cosmetic armor, in the cash shop. They put the sixth bag in the cash shop, deeds in the cash shop, quick travel in the cash shop.
And charge a lot more than 500 points for it...
Now you could argue, and commonly people DO argue that "well if you need cosmetic crap it's your own fault, just don't buy it", but frankly, part of my motivation back in 2008/09 was grinding rep for rep-based vanity items, mounts, cloaks, housing stuff...
So after soing the math (basic game experience from P2P + vanity items I used to get with P2P) I usually pay around 20 bucks a month for the game for the exact same game experience I had for 8,99/month three years ago.
So my imo valid argument is that, while freemium and F2P aren't inherently evil, they're just making games more expensive. You're getting nickle and dimed, no matter what they try to tell you.
M
Nope, just this summer I went to two movies with friends in the heart of NYC. For a 3D movie we spent $15.75, for a regular 2D movie we spent $13.00. My pop was over priced but refillable at $5.00, and popcorn actually wasn't too bad. All in all, for the 2D movie I spent around $20.00 and for the 3D around $24.00. I didn't get popcorn, I opted for the more expensive candy
Also, I did a quick google and found links to current prices of theatres in the centre and surrounding areas of new york. The average price is indeed $13.00 for a ticket, and with many combo prices below $20.00.
So where are you going to see the movies? Near the brooklyn projects in some guys basement who threatens to break your legs if you don't pay $35.00?
Agreed, EQ2 is a shining example of how NOT to do F2P IMO. Not all of them are THAT bad.
I truly hope that the F2P / B2P model is short lived for the MMO genre. I understand all of the talking points from F2P / B2P advocates but the reality is that these types of games are in many cases ruining the genre by lowering the standards of quality, content, and support.
Out of all the F2P / B2P games that have been released or converted over the past few years, only LOTRO has proven to be somewhat successful. Many would argue that GW2 is successful but it really hasn't been out long enough to determine what kind of longevity it will have or how the CS will evolve.
Bottom line is that gaming is not a right, it's a priviledge that not everyone can take part in or afford. By attempting to make games, MMO's in particular, available to anyone with a computer we've significantly compromised the most critical component to long term playability which is our communities.
Are you seriously forum warrioring movie prices? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe you wasted your time googling ticket prices!!!!!
LOL
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Gamign is not a right, but a competitive business. If devs want a large player base, F2P is the way to go.
Exactly. Thank you.
I am so tired of this new argument against P2P. I never feel I have "wasted" $15, even if I only login 1 or 2 days in a month. It's a ridiculous argument that needs to go away sooner rather than later.
If $15 seems like a lot of money for a month of entertainment to you, you really have no business having an interest in MMOs. That's my opinion.
The problem with large player bases is that in most cases, they only last a month or two. I'm pretty sure that most devs and publishers would prefer a smaller yet extremely loyal player base that provides consistent, predictable revenue over several years.
LOL has a growing playerbase for more than a month or two. DDO, LOTOR all have much bigger ongoing player base after going F2P.
I am sure the reveneue math must have worked out for some many games going F2P. And P2P does not ensure loyalty. Where do you get that idea?
There is simply little loyalty and devs should plan as such.
I started playing the MMO world at the age of 11 , and I had to pay a sub fee of 10$ for Nexus the kingdom of the winds , so what did I do? I started working as a paperboy , delivered around 20 newspaper , which took 15-20 minutes , and voila my sub fee was paid with some extra left over!! Yes people complain about P2P because their lazy bastards who just cry all day instead of doing something out of their lives. Anyways I enjoy my EVE-Online for almost 7 years now and will keep on going at it until I pass away! F2P is garbage , and will continue on bashing F2P until I pass away! Ya'll have a good day now!
Everyone is missing the point! A F2P MMO is more likely to be shutdown than a B2P/P2P MMO. Am I right? Besides, time is what matters. How would you feel you spent a week grinding something and then the server was shutdown? You could have had a job instead and played the sub based one, which! You still will be able to play since the sub already supports the server. It is all relative and a matter of prefference, but time is a variable that can drastically change any circumstance.
Whether you like it or not, its how it is .
asdasdasd
No your not right. There have been many f2p mmo's going on for years, just like P2P. There have been several that have closed down. Just like P2P.
Not a popular one like LOTRO, STO, DDO or DCUO.
And what if it is shut down 3 month from now. I have fun now. I thought it is about the journey, not the destination. If a game i play shuts down, i move on to the next one. In fact, it is more than likely that i will move on WAY BEFORE it shuts down.
Not at all. Hardly can immagine how fun can be game I play barely 5 hours per month. Ok, I can understand 5 hours per WEEK. Barely of course. I'm sure if you like some game you will find more then 5 hours time per month. Btw, I do not have swimming pool even less filled with money, but I'm still paying for swtor sub even if not actively playing for last months. Because is great game I will return soon. Any game that have implemented mixed system, I always sub. Or I do not play.
Bad is, f2p is killing quality gamming. Or they implement such "free" that at the end of the month you find you have spent more money then for regular sub all inclusive.
I have always fun NOW, I'm also altholic and enjoy developing all possible combinations, ..... but would not play game that I know will shut down in month or so. Because MMO's are big investment in future play, you develop something. Pacman style game is instant pleasure, games for i.e. bowling, golf, ... but they have nothing that make up MMO.
Otherwise it feels like somebody enjoying to paint some great landscape ... knowing somebody will trash his/her work into trash in month or so. Really wondering how much joy you would find in this.
not everyone earns money like you .neither everyone is cash making machines . most people have got life unlike you .sorry if it sounds harsh but if you want to live in this world than learn to accept different views .
The same fun as in any other game
(ok, I'm not Z3R01, but my case is somewhat similar)
When I started hopping 4-5 years ago I got the same thing thrown at my head (you're not even a player, you don't know how to play an mmo, you will be a n00b casual, etc). I just got fed up the so-called 'endgame' which is only gear grinding for months, to get what? a ~2% better gear, so you could go grind a few more month the same stuff just now in T2/hard mode/elite (pick your game
) for a slight better gear. Oh, and for this boring chore of course you keep paying the monthly fee. I just started to play other games, and since then I never wasted 1 minute more on 'endgame' 
(except the ones without a grind, STO's DOff system is great fun for example)
So, I have now 5-6 games installed (and a few more on try-out phase), in which I have levelcapped alts, and I log in for talking, crafting, helping buddies, sometimes I level up a new alt, I love to participate in seasonal events (during that of course the 5hrs/month is not valid, I wouldn't miss any second from a festival in LotRO for example
), etc.
I'm the uber-hardcore-elite raiding dude? Not at all, not anymore. Am I having fun play barely 5 hours per month in a game (sometimes more of course)? Absolutely.
But it's off-topic I guess, since it's nothing to do with f2p, I did the same before the f2p-era as well.
Such a poor argument,if you don't like the game or want to play it,then why would you worry about a subscription?There is NEVER any obligation to play,you simply don't pay the subscription.
That would be the exact same analogy as saying,i don't want to pay house taxes because it is an obligation to live in my house.I don't want to pay for a gas furnace because it is an obligation to use it,i don't want to buy a car because it is an obligation top use it.I don't want a license because it is an obligation to buy a car and to use it.
The list goes on and on.
The ONLY argument would be if you feel you are getting your money worth in the game.There are several checklists,like does the game really offer a MMO atmosphere of ongoing gaming,or is it simply a single player game that has me waiting for the next xpac to get anymore fun?Is the developer taking that money and using it to better the game,use it for support,good servers ect ect.
Bottom line is simple,NONE of these developers are stupid,they all have their marketing gimmicks to try and make a profit.If they have the plan from day 1 to go f2p,then you can bet your bottom dollar the content will be slim and the overall game depth will be slim.This is not a guarantee as really most developers jumped on the bandwagon and just automatic charge a sub fee as an extra free income.There is always an ongoing cost,but in reality,if you are going to sell a MMO,you are expected to have GM support and expected to have servers.Developers have seen an easy window of opportunity to fund their ongoing projects with current subs,instead of investing that money back into the game ,to KEEP players happy and coming back.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.