Originally posted by Margulis I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP. Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series. So why would that not be the main focus? Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community. So again, why opt for this route?
F
A
Same IP, but not the same genre. look at it that way and its more clear. the developers are working with the same IP story, but in different forms of gameplay.
TES couldnt have PvP since it was single player. This game is MMO, not just multiplayer.
Originally posted by Margulis I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP. Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series. So why would that not be the main focus? Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community. So again, why opt for this route?
F
A
Same IP, but not the same genre. look at it that way and its more clear. the developers are working with the same IP story, but in different forms of gameplay.
TES couldnt have PvP since it was single player. This game is MMO, not just multiplayer.
Knock it off, pvp != MMOs and stop acting like ES games didnt have pvp cause it was a single player game.
Its an RPG genre, it woulda been better if they made Skyrim 2(I liked skyrim better than morrow) and added co-op. Hell theres a mod group trying to add Multiplayer to Syrim ; omg!!!!!!!! and its not pvp but pve co-op 8O
DAoC was a cool game the pve was pretty fun and melee fighting was more complex than EQ combat. But DAoC wasnt the epitome of pvp history. It was decent but like someone mentioned earlier they had regular nerf patches.
Whats with old DAoC devs trying to turn popular IPs into DAoC redux . They screwed up Warhammer ip now there after Elder Scroll. Jeeezzz DAoC wasnt that popular whats there deal.
Oh also wanted to shout out that 3 faction pvp is lame 90s sauce. Back in the day it was neat but why the hell would i bother with that kind of pvp just for the hell of it... Didnt they learn from WAR old gimmicky pvp isnt going to keep ur subscribers. World of Darkness ftw!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Margulis I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP. Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series. So why would that not be the main focus? Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community. So again, why opt for this route?
F
A
Same IP, but not the same genre. look at it that way and its more clear. the developers are working with the same IP story, but in different forms of gameplay.
TES couldnt have PvP since it was single player. This game is MMO, not just multiplayer.
Knock it off, pvp != MMOs and stop acting like ES games didnt have pvp cause it was a single player game.
Its an RPG genre, it woulda been better if they made Skyrim 2(I liked skyrim better than morrow) and added co-op. Hell theres a mod group trying to add Multiplayer to Syrim ; omg!!!!!!!! and its not pvp but pve co-op 8O
DAoC was a cool game the pve was pretty fun and melee fighting was more complex than EQ combat. But DAoC wasnt the epitome of pvp history. It was decent but like someone mentioned earlier they had regular nerf patches.
Whats with old DAoC devs trying to turn popular IPs into DAoC redux . They screwed up Warhammer ip now there after Elder Scroll. Jeeezzz DAoC wasnt that popular whats there deal.
Oh also wanted to shout out that 3 faction pvp is lame 90s sauce. Back in the day it was neat but why the hell would i bother with that kind of pvp just for the hell of it... Didnt they learn from WAR old gimmicky pvp isnt going to keep ur subscribers. World of Darkness ftw!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually the problem with Warhammer is that they tried to follow WoW's methods - anyone can go everywhere, their zones, their enemy's zones etc - Warhammer would have been better if not of that "WoW" layout - if it was faction locked, like DAoC or ESO is trying to do, then Warhammer would have been a great game.
It crosses no sane mind that an orc can run all happy across elven land - Theres NO WAY that would be possible in Warhammer - some factions actually cross paths and some even live in the same place as others, like Vampire Counts / Warriors of Chaos and Skaven - but you know how it works - they're killed on sight (apart from that battle between the VCs and Chaos where both decided that fighting at that time was pointless and both retreated) But the VCs constantly wipe large numbers of skaven for instance.
Skaven also live under the Empire's grounds, in tunnels where no one goes... no imperial goes into those skaven infested sewers, but in the game, sure... go there... glad that when I played the Skaven were not a player faction but more of a "mercenary" faction working for whoever crosses their path.
Of course, with such a racist and segregated lore, when you try to let players "go everywhere" the game turns to crap. And the same goes for ESO - all races are racist towards the others, ones more than others, each with their reasons, some think they're just better than others, others just hate everything else who isnt them...
So even these "factions" have internal struggles since they still dont get along - they joined up just to stand a chance, doesnt mean that they like who they're fighting with - but their "brothers in hate" are still better than the alternative (for the Ebon Pack for instance) and the Elves would never side with anyone else but Elves, still they lack the meat for the grinder so they get the cat people - again, its better than siding with Dark Elves or worse, Men.
Factions are good and the fact that you cant go to your enemy's lands actually makes you hate the other faction even more. Theres no contact whatsoever unless in open war. The WoW way of "go everywhere" completely killed any chance of PvP on that game, or realm pride or anything since you kept crossing each others paths and only 2 things happen - either you're ganked or nothing happens - both are equally ridiculous - why am I killing mobs next to a night elf whos doing exactly the same thing?
Faction lock and segregated zones make all the difference from all the crappy mmos out there. And drive the PvP to a huge zone where people can PvE also, but at risk... still the "absolute pve" people are safe from even seeing the faces of any other faction's member, so they can do their stuff. Still... from my experience in DAoC, everyone goes to the frontiers, even the most hardcore of PvEr. But its their decision, PvP doesnt come to them, they go to PvP. Its completely different then "why the fuck is this jack ass killing all the npcs in my town? Great now I cant attack him because he is high level, and I cant deliver quests or get a bloody horse out of here because he killed every single NPC and nobody does shit about it - noone cares".
I strongly believe that this segregation is awesome to the game.
As for World of Darkness... I wouldnt expect it any time soon - maybe 2015 or 16. But yea... seems like a cool game so far.
How is TES series built on PvE? Its a single-player game, there's no chance for PvP. (Don't you go split-creen on me, as the series is originally a PC exclusive.)
Kind of missing the point of the question.
TESO had the option of going 100% PvE or having varying amounts of PvP. Thir design seems to be very heavily focused on PvP. The question why did they focus so much on PvP is very valid. Saying the SPG didn't have PvP is irrelevent.
For example, if TESO was based around the same core design of 3 faction PvP fighting over a cetral hub then why not do the following: -
Make the 3 factions untied into racial/regional restrictions but of political/idealogical idea's.
Make any faction avialable to any race.
Make any region explorable.
Keep the unwritten rule that combat outside Cyrodil was not allowed (rather then hard locking where people can go to stop fighting just stop fighting but allow people to roam free).
Due to regions/races not being faction locked you cannot really tell which faction people belong too outside Cyrodil so you justify no attacks outside the PvP area.
PvE is available to all races in all area's.
Everyone now has 300% of content and can choose where to do the content so it is now possible to level 3 characters of the same race without repeated content if required (assuming they haven't copy pasted content currently).
PvP remains untouched in terms of where you CAN fight.
PvE exploration is now 100% open.
Character choice is now 100% open.
Faction pride remains unchanged because those that are PvP'ing are still doing it in the same place with the same goals.
Guilds can now recruit from all races.
Guild members are not faced with having to choose between guild and the character they want to play if they conflict.
Friends can now PvE together anywhere on the map and join the same faction.
Seriously, I could go on all day.
Dumb design, dumb supporters.
Then what would be the point of factions then? I mean... they fight mostly for their "race pride", why should a High Elf fight alongside an orc which he considers a "beast" like a dog or a cow? They wont even let the orc drink from the same RIVER. And a nord would simply crush his skull with the first stone he could grab while the Elf was making those speeches about how good they are.
Every race can be of any faction is just stupid.
But what I think is... you guys see this as if you wont see a single breton in skyrim or a single Elf in hammerfell. This will be just like TES games, you'll have all kinds of merchants, turncoats and traitors, spies etc - you'll get to interact with any race in your homeland, you just cant GO yourselves, to the other faction's lands. Its not a problem since when you bought Oblivion you couldnt go to Morrowind, and when you had Morrowind you couldnt go to Cyrodiil or Hammerfell, but you had all the races there doing their stuff. (I'm not sure about seeing an orc in summerset isle... unless hes a slave pulling the wheat grinder next to a cow, or being sold as a "good watch dog" lol)
Its not like in Skyrim you'll only see nords... you see everyrace, it will be your regular TES game. You just wont see PLAYERS from the other factions - which makes sense.
Originally posted by Margulis I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP. Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series. So why would that not be the main focus? Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community. So again, why opt for this route?
F
A
Same IP, but not the same genre. look at it that way and its more clear. the developers are working with the same IP story, but in different forms of gameplay.
TES couldnt have PvP since it was single player. This game is MMO, not just multiplayer.
Knock it off, pvp != MMOs and stop acting like ES games didnt have pvp cause it was a single player game.
Its an RPG genre, it woulda been better if they made Skyrim 2(I liked skyrim better than morrow) and added co-op. Hell theres a mod group trying to add Multiplayer to Syrim ; omg!!!!!!!! and its not pvp but pve co-op 8O
DAoC was a cool game the pve was pretty fun and melee fighting was more complex than EQ combat. But DAoC wasnt the epitome of pvp history. It was decent but like someone mentioned earlier they had regular nerf patches.
Whats with old DAoC devs trying to turn popular IPs into DAoC redux . They screwed up Warhammer ip now there after Elder Scroll. Jeeezzz DAoC wasnt that popular whats there deal.
Oh also wanted to shout out that 3 faction pvp is lame 90s sauce. Back in the day it was neat but why the hell would i bother with that kind of pvp just for the hell of it... Didnt they learn from WAR old gimmicky pvp isnt going to keep ur subscribers. World of Darkness ftw!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually the problem with Warhammer is that they tried to follow WoW's methods - anyone can go everywhere, their zones, their enemy's zones etc - Warhammer would have been better if not of that "WoW" layout - if it was faction locked, like DAoC or ESO is trying to do, then Warhammer would have been a great game.
It crosses no sane mind that an orc can run all happy across elven land - Theres NO WAY that would be possible in Warhammer - some factions actually cross paths and some even live in the same place as others, like Vampire Counts / Warriors of Chaos and Skaven - but you know how it works - they're killed on sight (apart from that battle between the VCs and Chaos where both decided that fighting at that time was pointless and both retreated) But the VCs constantly wipe large numbers of skaven for instance.
Skaven also live under the Empire's grounds, in tunnels where no one goes... no imperial goes into those skaven infested sewers, but in the game, sure... go there... glad that when I played the Skaven were not a player faction but more of a "mercenary" faction working for whoever crosses their path.
Of course, with such a racist and segregated lore, when you try to let players "go everywhere" the game turns to crap. And the same goes for ESO - all races are racist towards the others, ones more than others, each with their reasons, some think they're just better than others, others just hate everything else who isnt them...
So even these "factions" have internal struggles since they still dont get along - they joined up just to stand a chance, doesnt mean that they like who they're fighting with - but their "brothers in hate" are still better than the alternative (for the Ebon Pack for instance) and the Elves would never side with anyone else but Elves, still they lack the meat for the grinder so they get the cat people - again, its better than siding with Dark Elves or worse, Men.
Factions are good and the fact that you cant go to your enemy's lands actually makes you hate the other faction even more. Theres no contact whatsoever unless in open war. The WoW way of "go everywhere" completely killed any chance of PvP on that game, or realm pride or anything since you kept crossing each others paths and only 2 things happen - either you're ganked or nothing happens - both are equally ridiculous - why am I killing mobs next to a night elf whos doing exactly the same thing?
Faction lock and segregated zones make all the difference from all the crappy mmos out there. And drive the PvP to a huge zone where people can PvE also, but at risk... still the "absolute pve" people are safe from even seeing the faces of any other faction's member, so they can do their stuff. Still... from my experience in DAoC, everyone goes to the frontiers, even the most hardcore of PvEr. But its their decision, PvP doesnt come to them, they go to PvP. Its completely different then "why the fuck is this jack ass killing all the npcs in my town? Great now I cant attack him because he is high level, and I cant deliver quests or get a bloody horse out of here because he killed every single NPC and nobody does shit about it - noone cares".
I strongly believe that this segregation is awesome to the game.
As for World of Darkness... I wouldnt expect it any time soon - maybe 2015 or 16. But yea... seems like a cool game so far.
So your saying WAR failed cause it lacked faction-locked zones? Realy? Realy Realy? Come on your just messing around no way you believe the reason WAR failed so bad was cause an orc can go around in Elf lands....
So why didnt SWToR succeed, I heard some mythic devs helped em out while it was being developed. Also Republic and Imperial had there own zones with it intersecting once inawhile. Let me guess the Third faction??? So all a successful game needs is locked zones and three factions????
Well... Yes really. The faction lock was a must have in warhammer, in starwars it should be only the starting zones and specific places like jedi conclaves.
Different games, different universes, different settings and lore, different rulesets.
They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
Exactly.
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.
PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.
I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.
I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.
Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.
GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.
The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
So your saying WAR failed cause it lacked faction-locked zones? Realy? Realy Realy? Come on your just messing around no way you believe the reason WAR failed so bad was cause an orc can go around in Elf lands....
So why didnt SWToR succeed, I heard some mythic devs helped em out while it was being developed. Also Republic and Imperial had there own zones with it intersecting once inawhile. Let me guess the Third faction??? So all a successful game needs is locked zones and three factions????
Ah the great Mythic/Bioware relationship confusion strikes again...damn you EA! SWTOR was Bioware's baby. Mythic was just a sad little studio by that point that, after Mark Jacobs was fired, was overseen by some Bioware devs. They may have talked about faction lock in the lunchroom at some point but they probably also talked about sandbox vs. themepark and world peace there...long after the key design bridges had already been crossed by BW alone.
The use of an almost 100% PVE game (minus scenario e-sport and a lonely icy planet) as any kind of evidence of what faction lock is all about in a 3-sided RvR game is just a classic non-sequitur. SWTOR failed for many reasons: mostly due to being an extreme themepark on rails with ultimately, little to differentiate it from WOW...and losing to WOW in every respect in any objective head to head comparison. Faction lock wasn't why it failed.
The one and only game you should look at if you're interested in how 3-sided faction lock works is the previous (and actually very good) Mythic game, DAoC... for obvious reasons. That is where this idea came from and it's being designed to play--in this respect anyway--like a DAoC 2...not a WAR 2 nor a SWTOR 2.
Superficial similarities aside, neither SWTOR nor WAR have anything to do with this project.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
Exactly.
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.
PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.
I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.
I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.
Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.
GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.
The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)
I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...
Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So your saying WAR failed cause it lacked faction-locked zones? Realy? Realy Realy? Come on your just messing around no way you believe the reason WAR failed so bad was cause an orc can go around in Elf lands....
So why didnt SWToR succeed, I heard some mythic devs helped em out while it was being developed. Also Republic and Imperial had there own zones with it intersecting once inawhile. Let me guess the Third faction??? So all a successful game needs is locked zones and three factions????
Ah the great Mythic/Bioware relationship confusion strikes again...damn you EA! SWTOR was Bioware's baby. Mythic was just a sad little studio by that point that, after Mark Jacobs was fired, was overseen by some Bioware devs. They may have talked about faction lock in the lunchroom at some point but they probably also talked about sandbox vs. themepark and world peace there...long after the key design bridges had already been crossed by BW alone.
The use of an almost 100% PVE game (minus scenario e-sport and a lonely icy planet) as any kind of evidence of what faction lock is all about in a 3-sided RvR game is just a classic non-sequitur. SWTOR failed for many reasons: mostly due to being an extreme themepark on rails with ultimately, little to differentiate it from WOW...and losing to WOW in every respect in any objective head to head comparison. Faction lock wasn't why it failed.
The one and only game you should look at if you're interested in how 3-sided faction lock works is the previous (and actually very good) Mythic game, DAoC... for obvious reasons. That is where this idea came from and it's being designed to play--in this respect anyway--like a DAoC 2...not a WAR 2 nor a SWTOR 2.
Superficial similarities aside, neither SWTOR nor WAR have anything to do with this project.
I played DAoC and it wasnt that good of a game. Some people here act like it was the best pvp mmo back then.
In regard to the OP, the series is not famous because it's PvE. The series is famous for a million little things added together, like the lore, the exploration, the leveling system, etc. The way you fight monsters in the SP game is the least of why I enjoy playing them. In fact, the PvE fighting is probably the worst thing about the whole series.
Why is the game as focused on PvP as it is? Conflict. Conflict is fun. That's why most of you are here on this forum arguing about whether this game will suck balls or rock hard. That's why many of you, even though you dislike this game to your core, will return to these very forums to spit acid at the ones who see merit in TESO. Conflict.
As many have pointed out, it's a different genre, and they're expanding their gameplay based on that change.
So your saying WAR failed cause it lacked faction-locked zones? Realy? Realy Realy? Come on your just messing around no way you believe the reason WAR failed so bad was cause an orc can go around in Elf lands....
So why didnt SWToR succeed, I heard some mythic devs helped em out while it was being developed. Also Republic and Imperial had there own zones with it intersecting once inawhile. Let me guess the Third faction??? So all a successful game needs is locked zones and three factions????
Ah the great Mythic/Bioware relationship confusion strikes again...damn you EA! SWTOR was Bioware's baby. Mythic was just a sad little studio by that point that, after Mark Jacobs was fired, was overseen by some Bioware devs. They may have talked about faction lock in the lunchroom at some point but they probably also talked about sandbox vs. themepark and world peace there...long after the key design bridges had already been crossed by BW alone.
The use of an almost 100% PVE game (minus scenario e-sport and a lonely icy planet) as any kind of evidence of what faction lock is all about in a 3-sided RvR game is just a classic non-sequitur. SWTOR failed for many reasons: mostly due to being an extreme themepark on rails with ultimately, little to differentiate it from WOW...and losing to WOW in every respect in any objective head to head comparison. Faction lock wasn't why it failed.
The one and only game you should look at if you're interested in how 3-sided faction lock works is the previous (and actually very good) Mythic game, DAoC... for obvious reasons. That is where this idea came from and it's being designed to play--in this respect anyway--like a DAoC 2...not a WAR 2 nor a SWTOR 2.
Superficial similarities aside, neither SWTOR nor WAR have anything to do with this project.
I played DAoC and it wasnt that good of a game. Some people here act like it was the best pvp mmo back then.
Sorry you didn't like it. To me and many others it was the best PVP game then and to this day.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
Exactly.
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.
PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.
I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.
I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.
Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.
GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.
The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)
I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...
Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.
They want to appeal to what they consider to be the populist market
The devs are stuck in the lazy increasingly outdated mindset of MMO = PvP
PvP is cheap filler content that keeps the monkeys happy flingling poo at each other
Exactly.
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.
PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.
I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.
I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.
Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.
GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.
The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)
I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...
Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
That doesn't work in an MMORPG. Just look at the graveyard of PVE focused MMOs that were popular for a month, then died off due to lack of content or no 'endgame'.
Players want something that is interesting to do with their friends and characters once they are max level, and the only game that has managed to keep them interested with PVE is WoW because it has the sub numbers to pay for it.
As you stated world pvp is one of the few ways to create interesting content without astronomical costs. Zenimax thinks that using some of the ideas from DAOC will make the 'endless king of the hill' interesting for players.
The sense I get from a lot of posters here is that all they want is another 30 days and done game that is somehow going to continually produce infinite pve content with 1% of WoW's budget. Investors and devs aren't spending years and hundreds of millions to create an MMO that people will only pay a box price for and then leave. RvR is the most effective solution which is why every game tries to do it.
Originally posted by Margulis I can understand wanting to have PvP to some degree to appeal to all potential players, but it seems the biggest focus point from the devs, and their hype push, is all on the 3 faction system and PvP. Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series. So why would that not be the main focus? Sure you want to draw in mmo players also who may not have been fans of the series because of the single player experience - but make that the biggest focus over what the series has become famous for? The hardcore PvP crowd isn't even that large of a percentage of the mmo community. So again, why opt for this route?
Its honestly for two reason, one you'll never have a major sucesful AAA mmorpg without pvp post daoc/wow, will not occur. you may get 200k subs top and trickle from there. The reason is simple no one want to do the same thing over and over, pvp is an entire differnt playign field and style. Its refreshing to pvp after pve ing for a long time... and vis versa. Well done pvp is a miracle and keeps subs and makes subs grow.
However, i do find all the talk of teso's pvp odd and the nature of it also (the basic concepts for it seem right on with what you would want however.)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
They should ditch the RVR and go with what a true ES mmorpg should be like- total free for all pvp with consequences. Just because the humanoids in your virtual environment are now pc's and not npc's shouldn't change a thing. Of course that would totally turn off a lot of potential customers so I understand that the design team has to make compromises and balance.
The game is developed by ZeniMax studio headed by ex Mythic (Dark Age of Camelot) dev Matt Firor.
So the developer has never done any of the single player elder scrolls games before, but has worked on an awesome (vanilla DAoC, I wasn't a fan of the expansions) RvR game.
Its all about the studio doing dev and what they are good at, the single player series was done by different developers studios so that fact that it was all PvE doesn't mean squat about TESO.
The lore is largely irrelevant, if Zenimax was working on StarWars, Zombie or a Muppet game they would all most likely be 3 factions with RvR.
This Matt Firor guy sounds like a right cunt then.
First off, this is my first post - ever - on mmorpg.com! So hey
Ive been following ESO for some time and played all the old (and new ) Elder Scrolls games - I was surpised when I saw that RvR was gonna play such a huge role in the game. It hard to tell at this point if RvR will be the only or even the major part of the end-game - but for arguments sack lets say it is:
I understand why they would do this and to some extend I think its a smart move: PvE content (in a Themepark-type game) is hard to keep up to date and player go through it faster then anyone can make new (quality) content - even the behemoth World of Warcraft will see alot less activety in the last months before a major patch or expansion - and any new developer will have a very hard time making new PvE content fast enough to keep the majority of players engaged.
I have no doubt that there will be lots of good PvE content in ESO and an amazing story (if they follow the recipe from the old single player games), but after we've played through it - they need something for us to do while they make new content.
RvR and PvP in general is alot easier to keep "interesting" (if you are into PvP that is) as the "encounters" are more varied - because its basicly "made" by other players. Several games have tried to incorporate this into PvE through player made content (CoH, STO and others) with more or less luck - but PvP is the easist way to do it.
With this in mind RvR makes sense: All the Elder Scroll games revolve around conflicts - and with ESO the titel and the conflicts go Massive Multiplayer Online. I do hope that the main focus of the game will be PvE and the story with Molag Bal as the main antagonist will lead to epic raids and fights- but if the RvR part is done right - im sure ill spent just as much time doing that while waiting for the next patch.
TL:DR: Themepark MMOs based on PvE will run out of content - hence RvR can fill the gaps while we wait for more PvE.
I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination. As others have mentioned, myself included, it just looks like Matt Frior wanted to do a DAOC2 game, got the ES IP and ran with it with no attention to what an ES MMO could be great at.
Faction locked races are a design limitation and if you actually sit down and really look at how you could have good PvP without doing it the options open up vastly. Keep all the good stuff about ES, keep all the good stuff about 3 faction RvR and just get rid of all the crap stuff that has lots of fans up in arms. It all stems from someone stubbonly sticking to how it was done in DAOC without updating it for now and TESO.
I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination.
PvP is a gap filler? You sure?
I'd hate to be a game like Planetside2, GW2, Rift, or WoW right now. Someone should have told them that large portions of their games are unimaginative gap fillers, and that clearly only PvE counts when you're designing an MMO. Bummer for them.
I wouldn't say gap filler, more like another option for people to do. An mmo is a gathering for people with different tastes. As far as pve goes gw2 is doing factal dungeons. Neverwinter is going to have player made content. There are things to do besides just rvr.
It concerns me ESO is so focused on rvr to the point the game is being built around it.
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Same IP, but not the same genre. look at it that way and its more clear. the developers are working with the same IP story, but in different forms of gameplay.
TES couldnt have PvP since it was single player. This game is MMO, not just multiplayer.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Knock it off, pvp != MMOs and stop acting like ES games didnt have pvp cause it was a single player game.
Its an RPG genre, it woulda been better if they made Skyrim 2(I liked skyrim better than morrow) and added co-op. Hell theres a mod group trying to add Multiplayer to Syrim ; omg!!!!!!!! and its not pvp but pve co-op 8O
DAoC was a cool game the pve was pretty fun and melee fighting was more complex than EQ combat. But DAoC wasnt the epitome of pvp history. It was decent but like someone mentioned earlier they had regular nerf patches.
Whats with old DAoC devs trying to turn popular IPs into DAoC redux . They screwed up Warhammer ip now there after Elder Scroll. Jeeezzz DAoC wasnt that popular whats there deal.
Oh also wanted to shout out that 3 faction pvp is lame 90s sauce. Back in the day it was neat but why the hell would i bother with that kind of pvp just for the hell of it... Didnt they learn from WAR old gimmicky pvp isnt going to keep ur subscribers. World of Darkness ftw!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually the problem with Warhammer is that they tried to follow WoW's methods - anyone can go everywhere, their zones, their enemy's zones etc - Warhammer would have been better if not of that "WoW" layout - if it was faction locked, like DAoC or ESO is trying to do, then Warhammer would have been a great game.
It crosses no sane mind that an orc can run all happy across elven land - Theres NO WAY that would be possible in Warhammer - some factions actually cross paths and some even live in the same place as others, like Vampire Counts / Warriors of Chaos and Skaven - but you know how it works - they're killed on sight (apart from that battle between the VCs and Chaos where both decided that fighting at that time was pointless and both retreated) But the VCs constantly wipe large numbers of skaven for instance.
Skaven also live under the Empire's grounds, in tunnels where no one goes... no imperial goes into those skaven infested sewers, but in the game, sure... go there... glad that when I played the Skaven were not a player faction but more of a "mercenary" faction working for whoever crosses their path.
Of course, with such a racist and segregated lore, when you try to let players "go everywhere" the game turns to crap. And the same goes for ESO - all races are racist towards the others, ones more than others, each with their reasons, some think they're just better than others, others just hate everything else who isnt them...
So even these "factions" have internal struggles since they still dont get along - they joined up just to stand a chance, doesnt mean that they like who they're fighting with - but their "brothers in hate" are still better than the alternative (for the Ebon Pack for instance) and the Elves would never side with anyone else but Elves, still they lack the meat for the grinder so they get the cat people - again, its better than siding with Dark Elves or worse, Men.
Factions are good and the fact that you cant go to your enemy's lands actually makes you hate the other faction even more. Theres no contact whatsoever unless in open war. The WoW way of "go everywhere" completely killed any chance of PvP on that game, or realm pride or anything since you kept crossing each others paths and only 2 things happen - either you're ganked or nothing happens - both are equally ridiculous - why am I killing mobs next to a night elf whos doing exactly the same thing?
Faction lock and segregated zones make all the difference from all the crappy mmos out there. And drive the PvP to a huge zone where people can PvE also, but at risk... still the "absolute pve" people are safe from even seeing the faces of any other faction's member, so they can do their stuff. Still... from my experience in DAoC, everyone goes to the frontiers, even the most hardcore of PvEr. But its their decision, PvP doesnt come to them, they go to PvP. Its completely different then "why the fuck is this jack ass killing all the npcs in my town? Great now I cant attack him because he is high level, and I cant deliver quests or get a bloody horse out of here because he killed every single NPC and nobody does shit about it - noone cares".
I strongly believe that this segregation is awesome to the game.
As for World of Darkness... I wouldnt expect it any time soon - maybe 2015 or 16. But yea... seems like a cool game so far.
Then what would be the point of factions then? I mean... they fight mostly for their "race pride", why should a High Elf fight alongside an orc which he considers a "beast" like a dog or a cow? They wont even let the orc drink from the same RIVER. And a nord would simply crush his skull with the first stone he could grab while the Elf was making those speeches about how good they are.
Every race can be of any faction is just stupid.
But what I think is... you guys see this as if you wont see a single breton in skyrim or a single Elf in hammerfell. This will be just like TES games, you'll have all kinds of merchants, turncoats and traitors, spies etc - you'll get to interact with any race in your homeland, you just cant GO yourselves, to the other faction's lands. Its not a problem since when you bought Oblivion you couldnt go to Morrowind, and when you had Morrowind you couldnt go to Cyrodiil or Hammerfell, but you had all the races there doing their stuff. (I'm not sure about seeing an orc in summerset isle... unless hes a slave pulling the wheat grinder next to a cow, or being sold as a "good watch dog" lol)
Its not like in Skyrim you'll only see nords... you see everyrace, it will be your regular TES game. You just wont see PLAYERS from the other factions - which makes sense.
So your saying WAR failed cause it lacked faction-locked zones? Realy? Realy Realy? Come on your just messing around no way you believe the reason WAR failed so bad was cause an orc can go around in Elf lands....
So why didnt SWToR succeed, I heard some mythic devs helped em out while it was being developed. Also Republic and Imperial had there own zones with it intersecting once inawhile. Let me guess the Third faction??? So all a successful game needs is locked zones and three factions????
Different games, different universes, different settings and lore, different rulesets.
Is that so hard to grasp? Lol
Exactly.
PvP is cheap, easy repeatable content. Players are content. Give them a hill to fight over, they will spend their lives taking and retaking that hill.
It's like a bad Spy vs. Spy comic.
PvE actually requires the devs to create something that doesn't suck - that doesn't get repetitive and isn't boring: which most devs still fail really hard at as most PvE sucks too.
I mean, look at a game like Planetside 2. Nothing but PvP. Boring, repetitive, grind fest of can flipping.
I don't know - I'm starting to think I myself as well as a large portion of the gaming community is tired of doing the same shit over and over again.
Give me a great story line, excellent game play, and a decent number of hours to justify spending 60$ and I'm sold. I'm not going to play your game over and over and over again for months/years unless you are constantly adding more stuff.
GW2 is shifting that way with all the "living story" and such - Bungie is talking about constantly expanding story in Destiny, Halo 4 tried it (and did pretty well IMO) with the Spartan Ops weekly.
The idea of a linear one time through single player "story" and then grinding out mulitplayer forever is quickly fading into the past.
Just like the idea of grinding out your levels to max then PvP'ing for months/years is a joke.
If you aren't doing monthly or bi-monthly content updates you might as well not even waste my time.
Ah the great Mythic/Bioware relationship confusion strikes again...damn you EA! SWTOR was Bioware's baby. Mythic was just a sad little studio by that point that, after Mark Jacobs was fired, was overseen by some Bioware devs. They may have talked about faction lock in the lunchroom at some point but they probably also talked about sandbox vs. themepark and world peace there...long after the key design bridges had already been crossed by BW alone.
The use of an almost 100% PVE game (minus scenario e-sport and a lonely icy planet) as any kind of evidence of what faction lock is all about in a 3-sided RvR game is just a classic non-sequitur. SWTOR failed for many reasons: mostly due to being an extreme themepark on rails with ultimately, little to differentiate it from WOW...and losing to WOW in every respect in any objective head to head comparison. Faction lock wasn't why it failed.
The one and only game you should look at if you're interested in how 3-sided faction lock works is the previous (and actually very good) Mythic game, DAoC... for obvious reasons. That is where this idea came from and it's being designed to play--in this respect anyway--like a DAoC 2...not a WAR 2 nor a SWTOR 2.
Superficial similarities aside, neither SWTOR nor WAR have anything to do with this project.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Raises hand...happy poo-flinging, hill-fighting monkey here.
Rather do that than consume canned content at a rapid pace or learn the correct choreography required to complete a raid succesfully...that's PvE for you...canned an non-repeatable (except by those who enjoy reading the same book 32 times.)
I would also think twice before putting anyone down because they're having fun, or worse, assume that the only reason they're having fun is because they are a less evolved sub-category of MMO player. Glass houses and all that...
Well-designed large-scale PVP like "RvR" is repeatable because it's fun, not dependent on suckling on the teat the new content cow, and never the same twice. MMOs could and routinely do much worse than this.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I played DAoC and it wasnt that good of a game. Some people here act like it was the best pvp mmo back then.
In regard to the OP, the series is not famous because it's PvE. The series is famous for a million little things added together, like the lore, the exploration, the leveling system, etc. The way you fight monsters in the SP game is the least of why I enjoy playing them. In fact, the PvE fighting is probably the worst thing about the whole series.
Why is the game as focused on PvP as it is? Conflict. Conflict is fun. That's why most of you are here on this forum arguing about whether this game will suck balls or rock hard. That's why many of you, even though you dislike this game to your core, will return to these very forums to spit acid at the ones who see merit in TESO. Conflict.
As many have pointed out, it's a different genre, and they're expanding their gameplay based on that change.
Sorry you didn't like it. To me and many others it was the best PVP game then and to this day.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
When did you play it?
It was definitely a noteworthy PvP experience. Best is all a matter of opinion.
Full vid for those interested. It shows Iselin conquering a hill.
Ah yes. I remember that fight well. I won
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That doesn't work in an MMORPG. Just look at the graveyard of PVE focused MMOs that were popular for a month, then died off due to lack of content or no 'endgame'.
Players want something that is interesting to do with their friends and characters once they are max level, and the only game that has managed to keep them interested with PVE is WoW because it has the sub numbers to pay for it.
As you stated world pvp is one of the few ways to create interesting content without astronomical costs. Zenimax thinks that using some of the ideas from DAOC will make the 'endless king of the hill' interesting for players.
The sense I get from a lot of posters here is that all they want is another 30 days and done game that is somehow going to continually produce infinite pve content with 1% of WoW's budget. Investors and devs aren't spending years and hundreds of millions to create an MMO that people will only pay a box price for and then leave. RvR is the most effective solution which is why every game tries to do it.
Its honestly for two reason, one you'll never have a major sucesful AAA mmorpg without pvp post daoc/wow, will not occur. you may get 200k subs top and trickle from there. The reason is simple no one want to do the same thing over and over, pvp is an entire differnt playign field and style. Its refreshing to pvp after pve ing for a long time... and vis versa. Well done pvp is a miracle and keeps subs and makes subs grow.
However, i do find all the talk of teso's pvp odd and the nature of it also (the basic concepts for it seem right on with what you would want however.)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This Matt Firor guy sounds like a right cunt then.
First off, this is my first post - ever - on mmorpg.com! So hey
Ive been following ESO for some time and played all the old (and new
) Elder Scrolls games - I was surpised when I saw that RvR was gonna play such a huge role in the game. It hard to tell at this point if RvR will be the only or even the major part of the end-game - but for arguments sack lets say it is:
I understand why they would do this and to some extend I think its a smart move: PvE content (in a Themepark-type game) is hard to keep up to date and player go through it faster then anyone can make new (quality) content - even the behemoth World of Warcraft will see alot less activety in the last months before a major patch or expansion - and any new developer will have a very hard time making new PvE content fast enough to keep the majority of players engaged.
I have no doubt that there will be lots of good PvE content in ESO and an amazing story (if they follow the recipe from the old single player games), but after we've played through it - they need something for us to do while they make new content.
RvR and PvP in general is alot easier to keep "interesting" (if you are into PvP that is) as the "encounters" are more varied - because its basicly "made" by other players. Several games have tried to incorporate this into PvE through player made content (CoH, STO and others) with more or less luck - but PvP is the easist way to do it.
With this in mind RvR makes sense: All the Elder Scroll games revolve around conflicts - and with ESO the titel and the conflicts go Massive Multiplayer Online. I do hope that the main focus of the game will be PvE and the story with Molag Bal as the main antagonist will lead to epic raids and fights- but if the RvR part is done right - im sure ill spent just as much time doing that while waiting for the next patch.
TL:DR: Themepark MMOs based on PvE will run out of content - hence RvR can fill the gaps while we wait for more PvE.
I get your point but to design the game around a gap filler...and for it to have such a big impact on the PvE side of things...just smacks of lazyiness and lack of imagination. As others have mentioned, myself included, it just looks like Matt Frior wanted to do a DAOC2 game, got the ES IP and ran with it with no attention to what an ES MMO could be great at.
Faction locked races are a design limitation and if you actually sit down and really look at how you could have good PvP without doing it the options open up vastly. Keep all the good stuff about ES, keep all the good stuff about 3 faction RvR and just get rid of all the crap stuff that has lots of fans up in arms. It all stems from someone stubbonly sticking to how it was done in DAOC without updating it for now and TESO.
PvP is a gap filler? You sure?
I'd hate to be a game like Planetside2, GW2, Rift, or WoW right now. Someone should have told them that large portions of their games are unimaginative gap fillers, and that clearly only PvE counts when you're designing an MMO. Bummer for them.
I wouldn't say gap filler, more like another option for people to do. An mmo is a gathering for people with different tastes. As far as pve goes gw2 is doing factal dungeons. Neverwinter is going to have player made content. There are things to do besides just rvr.
It concerns me ESO is so focused on rvr to the point the game is being built around it.